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Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 09:03 PM
Ok, I'm trying to see if making an AS would be a good idea. I mean, I know it loses a CL, which goes against the link in the ol' siggeroo, but still. I'm thinking about either going into this as my current character...well, once he completely returns to the Material Plane :smallfrown: , or possibly making a new character. Both options would involve a Sorceror. As I see it, you can't do it until Character Level 11, because 5th level spells go into effect at CL10. Is it possible to do it sooner? And is it really as good as it seems? I see craziness like...permanancy-ing all Force-related shields onto my person (doesn't matter if it wouldn't normally work, it'll probbably fly with my DM), then proceeding to kick arse with nifty force-spells and such. Thoughts?

Innis Cabal
2008-06-03, 09:07 PM
Something else to think about, if you get high enough to do it. Pick up force missle mage. With AS it will be a killer combo, you do lose another CL or two(At most) but it will make you deadly in combat. I think you can enter into the Force Missle Mage pretty early, and sadly you cant pick up ARdent Savant untill later into your carrer, regardless of what you do.

I've played the above build before and had a blast all the way to 20 and beyond

Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 09:17 PM
Something else to think about, if you get high enough to do it. Pick up force missle mage. With AS it will be a killer combo, you do lose another CL or two(At most) but it will make you deadly in combat. I think you can enter into the Force Missle Mage pretty early, and sadly you cant pick up ARdent Savant untill later into your carrer, regardless of what you do.

I've played the above build before and had a blast all the way to 20 and beyond

Oh, I'm intrigued! What book can I find that in?

Innis Cabal
2008-06-03, 09:23 PM
its actually from a dragon. It allows you to get extra missles for your magic missle spell, allows you to change force to an elemental foce of your choice at will. Your magic missles do extra damage and become stilled and silenced, all from a level 5 PrC. With AS that little level 1 spell (and you've said your going sorcerer so thats absolutly perfect) is now a powerful spell even up to level 20.

tyckspoon
2008-06-03, 09:28 PM
Force Missile Mage was reprinted (possibly updated, I haven't seen the original) in the Dragon Compendium. It takes Combat Casting and 9 ranks in.. well, a couple of skills you're going to be taking anyway as a spellcaster, so no worries there. It does drop a caster level at 1st, tho. Which is annoying and will delay picking up Argent Savant. It's still an entertaining build, and one I've been considering playing myself. But I don't think I'd do it with a Sorcerer; the delayed spell progression on the base class is enough of a drag without losing caster levels as well.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 09:39 PM
There is, thankfully, a quick fix to the whole "knowing less spells" thing: Knowstones! If I make a new guy, the WBL should let me pick up a few to suppliment my lack of knowledge. Off to go search through my Dragon PDFs to find it, unless someone knows the issue #?

Innis Cabal
2008-06-03, 09:40 PM
Sorcerer really is the best way to go, ive tried both wizard and sorcerer. Its an awsome build. Not ultra-powerful or batman but it really is a fun, unique, and powerful build in its own right. One to try for sure

Solo
2008-06-03, 09:47 PM
The only way to truely know is to try. You might want to use a specialist wizard to get there faster, though.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 09:50 PM
haHAha! Solo rears his head! You, having rendered the amazing Sorceror guide, must know things on this. Is the ultimately losing 2 caster levels by using these two classes, Argent Savant and Force Missile Adept, made up by the nifty bonuses contained therein?

Collin152
2008-06-03, 09:53 PM
haHAha! Solo rears his head! You, having rendered the amazing Sorceror guide, must know things on this. Is the ultimately losing 2 caster levels by using these two classes, Argent Savant and Force Missile Adept, made up by the nifty bonuses contained therein?

Two questions are all you need:

1) Do I still cast spells?

2) Are there people in the party who don't cast spells?

If the answer to both is yes, you're still sitting pretty.

cupkeyk
2008-06-03, 09:56 PM
I wanted to make one too with the next levels in abjurant champion. Your force abjuration spells that grant AC's bonuses will sky rocket. i was thinking of using the web enhancement kobold because it gets martial weapon profieciency light pick for free and can get the greater draconic rite of passage to compensate for the caster level loss of Argent savant..

Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 09:57 PM
Oh, and sory if I forgot this, but if it matters to you folks, I'm also going to use the Spell Reflecty alternate class feature from Dungeonscape. Or I think it's Dungeonscape. The one with Factotum in it.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-03, 10:12 PM
Two questions are all you need:

1) Do I still cast spells?

2) Are there people in the party who don't cast spells?

If the answer to both is yes, you're still sitting pretty.

Actually, to be more specific, "I cast the spells that make the peoples fall down."

Sorry, but with Solo having visited the thread, I felt I couldn't resist.

Also, offtopic question @ Solo: Thoughts on 8-Bit reaching Episode 1000?

monty
2008-06-03, 10:44 PM
haHAha! Solo rears his head! You, having rendered the amazing Sorceror guide, must know things on this. Is the ultimately losing 2 caster levels by using these two classes, Argent Savant and Force Missile Adept, made up by the nifty bonuses contained therein?

Losing caster levels is bad, and blasting is bad, but you're still way ahead of the non-casters.

Solo
2008-06-04, 12:19 AM
Actually, to be more specific, "I cast the spells that make the peoples fall down."

Sorry, but with Solo having visited the thread, I felt I couldn't resist.

Also, offtopic question @ Solo: Thoughts on 8-Bit reaching Episode 1000?

It's over 900!


Is the ultimately losing 2 caster levels by using these two classes, Argent Savant and Force Missile Adept, made up by the nifty bonuses contained therein?

No, it isn't but that doesn't mean you lose style.

Generally, though, when playing a blaster, you want as high a CL as possible combined with high level spell slots, and tons of metamagic to deal out MASSIVE DAMAGE!

If you can still do that with the loss of 2 CL, you won't be gimped too much.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-04, 04:02 PM
No, it isn't but that doesn't mean you lose style.

Generally, though, when playing a blaster, you want as high a CL as possible combined with high level spell slots, and tons of metamagic to deal out MASSIVE DAMAGE!

If you can still do that with the loss of 2 CL, you won't be gimped too much.

Hm. Well, I'm trying to figure out if I can do just that. Unfortunately, it seems like I can only do 7d4+7 missiles max with FMM. Although, I think with Argent Savant, I can do an additional +1 per die, so actually, it's 7d4+14, which has a range of 21 to 42 damage, autohit. I don't suppose I can Quicken it, can I? If I can Quicken and Maximize it, suddenly I have (7d4+14)x2, or 84 autohit per round at a...what, 5th level spell? I don't know how that compares to other 5th level spells though.

Oh, and not to mention I can burn through SR. And I can alter the energy subtype. So, lets see, I alter the energy subtype to (Force/Eletricity). Then I use that feat that lets me add sonic damage to any electric attack. I do not, however, remember the mechanics of that faet, only that it's necesary for the "Locate City Bomb."

Eurus
2008-06-04, 04:21 PM
Then I use that feat that lets me add sonic damage to any electric attack. I do not, however, remember the mechanics of that faet, only that it's necesary for the "Locate City Bomb."


"Born of the Three Thunders" or somesuch, I believe. I think it converts into half Electric/half Sonic, but I'm not certain.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-04, 04:46 PM
Okay. So here's the plan. A friend of mine is gonna start a new campaign using Sandstorm rules. We're starting at Lv 8. I'm thinking, Sor3/FMM5? I realized i'd only be Caster Level 7, meaning I'll only have third level spells, but, I mean, it could be worse. Once I get to Level 10, I'll PrC into Argent Savant. Thoughts?

EDIT: Actually, I'd need to be level 11 so I could cast 5th level spells.

Innis Cabal
2008-06-04, 04:53 PM
Take practiced spell caster, you still have access as a sorcerer a level lower(with the FMM) and then two with AS, but youll cast at your full CL. Youll still get 9nth level spells sitting at 18 sorcerer with a 20 CL.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-04, 04:59 PM
Take practiced spell caster, you still have access as a sorcerer a level lower(with the FMM) and then two with AS, but youll cast at your full CL. Youll still get 9nth level spells sitting at 18 sorcerer with a 20 CL.

Ok, wait. I must be confused about what Practiced Spellcaster does, then. Where's it located?

Innis Cabal
2008-06-04, 05:03 PM
Its in Complete Arcane. It dosnt open up caster levels you would have as if you gained levels in the class itself, it just makes your Caster Level the level you actually are

FinalJustice
2008-06-04, 05:05 PM
Would Chain Missile (SpC) be affected by Force Missile Mage goodness? If yes, sounds solid. It's like a Twinned Chained Magic Missile as a 3th level spell. Arcane Thesis it and you can do some metamagic spamming to fire Twinned Empowered Maximized Splited Blistering Chain Missiles of The Three Thunders of Doom. And quicken to do it again. Sounds fun!

Innis Cabal
2008-06-04, 05:07 PM
That'd be up to DM ruling, i convinced mine to let me, but not all DM's are as open to such things. And if it is, nothing is stopping you from researching your own spells in the MM line :P

Maerok
2008-06-04, 05:17 PM
Hmm, how would Sorcerer 6/Force Missile Mage 5/Argent Savant 5/Abjurant Champion 4 look?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 05:21 PM
1) You can't get into FMM that quickly.

2) It's a build that can be fun in some games.

3) Take practiced Spellcaster. Take the Reserve Feat that gives +1 to CL of Force spells.

Then take the Sorcerer spells:

Magic missile
The third level version of Magic missile, ask your DM if missle stuff can be added to this too.
Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Fusion greater.

Use Arcane Fusion to fire off multiple Magic Missile spells per standard action, or even the higher level version + Magic Missile. Then use Greater Arcane Fusion to cast Arcane Fusion and Magic Missile (Using the Arcane Fusion to cast more Magic Missiles). 2 level 3 versions of Magic Missile and one magic missile in a single standard action, and then Quicken a Magic Missile. You'll have over 30 missiles shooting out of your hands in a single round.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-04, 06:49 PM
1) You can't get into FMM that quickly.

2) It's a build that can be fun in some games.

3) Take practiced Spellcaster. Take the Reserve Feat that gives +1 to CL of Force spells.

Then take the Sorcerer spells:

Magic missile
The third level version of Magic missile, ask your DM if missle stuff can be added to this too.
Arcane Fusion, and Arcane Fusion greater.

Use Arcane Fusion to fire off multiple Magic Missile spells per standard action, or even the higher level version + Magic Missile. Then use Greater Arcane Fusion to cast Arcane Fusion and Magic Missile (Using the Arcane Fusion to cast more Magic Missiles). 2 level 3 versions of Magic Missile and one magic missile in a single standard action, and then Quicken a Magic Missile. You'll have over 30 missiles shooting out of your hands in a single round.

Good lord! And they're all 1d4+2, so you've got from 90 to 180 autohitting nigh-unblockable damage per round. Gwarsh.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-04, 06:55 PM
Remember, if you're playing a sorceror, you can make up the lost spellcasting levels with the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, from the RotD web enhancement. +1 level of sorc casting for free can't hurt.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-04, 07:27 PM
1) You can't get into FMM that quickly.

You're confusing Force Missle Mage with Argent Savant. FMM can be taken after 6th (requires a 1st level spell, 9 ranks in two class-skills for Sorcerers, Wizards, or Clerics with the Force domain (!)). It's Argent Savant that requires 5th level spells. The build is valid.


2) It's a build that can be fun in some games.

More specifically, it's a build that's fun in games where you're not required to optimize too much, and the other players don't optimize too much. It is, when it comes down to it, still a blaster build.


3) Take practiced Spellcaster. Take the Reserve Feat that gives +1 to CL of Force spells.

Definitely. And it's called Invisible Needle, by the way.

Solo
2008-06-04, 08:12 PM
Be sure to give your character a catchy catch phrase, such as "I use the Force!"

Jack_Simth
2008-06-04, 08:23 PM
Remember, if you're playing a sorceror, you can make up the lost spellcasting levels with the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, from the RotD web enhancement. +1 level of sorc casting for free can't hurt.
Well, not free - it requires a feat, requires you play a kobold (con penalty bites, as does the light blindness, but the rest is handy, meaningless, or harmless for a caster - try a Desert Kobold (UA racial variant) if you can swing it), and removes a few HP permanently. Plus you spend a gem.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-05, 03:47 AM
Be sure to give your character a catchy catch phrase, such as "I use the Force!"

Why is everything you say made of so much pure Win? It shouldn't be possible. One person should not be able to create so much Win, and yet, you do, on a constant basis. You may very well be tapping into other people's Win reserves, draining them, leaving them Win-less husks. THAT should be your Granted Domain Power.

Back on topic though, I think my prospective DM may kill me instantly if I play a kobold. He's not fond of them, I don't think.

Adumbration
2008-06-05, 05:48 AM
Have a look at Force Missiles from Spell compedium. They're the same as Magic Missiles, except that they deal 2d6 damage per 4 caster levels, are 4th level spells, and deal damage to adjacent squares as well.

Gorbash
2008-06-05, 06:27 AM
It seems a bit sillly to me that you should base your whole 20 lvl progression on one spell, awesome as it is with those 2 prestige classes, which can be completely negated easily with a basic 1st lvl spell - shield. Or brooch of shielding.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 06:41 AM
It seems a bit sillly to me that you should base your whole 20 lvl progression on one spell, awesome as it is with those 2 prestige classes, which can be completely negated easily with a basic 1st lvl spell - shield. Or brooch of shielding.
When you tack on Abjurant Champion (a 3rd PrC) it becomes rather nasty. +6 AC from regular old Mage Armor (and don't ask what he gets out of Greater Mage Armor) and (at 20th) +10 AC from a swift or Immediate action Shield spell. Plus other stuff from other sources, as normal.

Also, he's got other Force spells that most of his PrC's apply to, and he has lots of other spells known to do other things. Target has Shield? Oh well, switch out to the save-or-lose spells.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-05, 07:46 AM
You're confusing Force Missle Mage with Argent Savant. FMM can be taken after 6th (requires a 1st level spell, 9 ranks in two class-skills for Sorcerers, Wizards, or Clerics with the Force domain (!)). It's Argent Savant that requires 5th level spells. The build is valid.

You misunderstand. He claimed that he was going to be a Sorcerer 3/FMM 5. There is absolutely no way that he could qualify for FMM at Sorcerer 3.

I did not misjudge anything, everyone else just ignored what he said.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 07:56 AM
You misunderstand. He claimed that he was going to be a Sorcerer 3/FMM 5. There is absolutely no way that he could qualify for FMM at Sorcerer 3.

I did not misjudge anything, everyone else just ignored what he said.

You're referring to post 4420562? He put an edit in, two minutes after the post, that nixed that. And your reply (4420769) was over half an hour later. We didn't so much ignore that one as accept his edit. Additionally, your post (4420769) did not include a quote to clarify who, exactly, you were referring to, and the one immediately before yours (4420746) also included a build. Context indicated you were referring to Maerok, rather than Deth Muncher, at the time.

Solo
2008-06-05, 08:10 AM
When you tack on Abjurant Champion (a 3rd PrC) it becomes rather nasty. +6 AC from regular old Mage Armor (and don't ask what he gets out of Greater Mage Armor) and (at 20th) +10 AC from a swift or Immediate action Shield spell. Plus other stuff from other sources, as normal.


When would be a good time to point out that Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell?

Gorbash
2008-06-05, 08:12 AM
Also, he's got other Force spells that most of his PrC's apply to, and he has lots of other spells known to do other things. Target has Shield? Oh well, switch out to the save-or-lose spells.

Sure, but he already lost a couple of caster levels trying to optimize his magic/force missle damage...

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 08:18 AM
When would be a good time to point out that Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell?
After you check my math on the Sorcerer 6/Force Missile Mage 5/Argent Savant 5/Abjurant Champion 4 build I thought was at that time under discussion, and note that while the Abjurant Champion's AC bonus doesn't apply to mage armor, the Argent Savant's bonus does - and that I didn't include the Abjurant Champion AC boost in the calculations for the Mage Armor.


Sure, but he already lost a couple of caster levels trying to optimize his magic/force missle damage...
Yes. Two. One, if he does the Kobold Greater Draconic Rite of Passage trick. His save DC's will be one point low. When his main schtick is nullified (oh, and a Brooch of Shielding will melt very, very quickly) the fallbacks, while not as good, are still very useful.

Gorbash
2008-06-05, 08:23 AM
And not to mention that Abjurant Champion requires some useless feats like Combat Casting and martial weapon proficiency...


oh, and a Brooch of Shielding will melt very, very quickly

Shield spell, however, will not.


One, if he does the Kobold Greater Draconic Rite of Passage trick.

Where did he say he's going to play a kobold?

And on top of all that, he's a sorcerer, meaning even slower spell level progression.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 08:33 AM
And not to mention that Abjurant Champion requires some useless feats like Combat Casting and martial weapon proficiency...

Yes, and Force Missile Mage requires Combat Casting anyway. It's a single extra feat, that gives him access to better BAB and HD. 0 extra feats, if he's taking a race that gets one or more free martial weapon proficiencies, such as the Elf.


Shield spell, however, will not.

No, but that's when you switch tactics - like how he's got some nifty bonuses for when dispelling Force effects... such as a Shield spell.


Where did he say he's going to play a kobold?

He didn't. It was one suggestion put forth. Part of the reason for the "if".


And on top of all that, he's a sorcerer, meaning even slower spell level progression.
Yes, but a backup plan isn't generally as good as the main plan anyway.
Edit: And generally, when I'm evaluating a build with a PrC vs. a build without that PrC, I'm comparing it to the base class (Sorcerer, in this case), rather than the best build on the block.

Gorbash
2008-06-05, 08:46 AM
He didn't. It was one suggestion put forth. Part of the reason for the "if".


if he's taking a race that gets one or more free martial weapon proficiencies, such as the Elf.

So, we can safely assume that he won't be playing both races in which case he still loses caster lvls gaining either weapon proficiency or reducing caster lvl with that Rite of Passage (in which case he still loses lvls or feats gaining weapon proficiency).


No, but that's when you switch tactics - like how he's got some nifty bonuses for when dispelling Force effects... such as a Shield spell.

Dispel Magic = 3rd lvl spell, and is still subject to a dice roll to determine if it will succeed.
Shield = 1st lvl spell. And since we're talking about some pretty high lvl characters here, wizards/sorcerers will either be taking multiple Shields, or having wands of them.

So if we take into account the fact that he's a sorcerer (meaning one lvl behind a regular wizard), and the fact that he's losing caster lvls with AS and Force Mage or whatever he's called, AND losing feats getting weapon proficiency, combat casting, that makes him what 4 lvl behind a full spellcaster? And just for getting a stronger Magic Missle damage? Somehow I don't think it evens out with the number of caster lvls you lose.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 09:00 AM
So, we can safely assume that he won't be playing both races in which case he still loses caster lvls gaining either weapon proficiency or reducing caster lvl with that Rite of Passage (in which case he still loses lvls or feats gaining weapon proficiency).

Yes, but it's one feat more than he was planning to spend anyway (and he really only needs two or three to satisfy all three PrC's feat requirements), or his racial pick. One of the two. The PrC gives you some stuff that's worth considerably more than the one useless feat (or one racial pick) you're putting into it. The build isn't exactly set in stone - yes, I am occasionally bringing up mutually exclusive stuff. Funny how I also don't suggest them in the same sentence, and include those pesky little "if" clauses when I'm discussing the results of one choice or another, isn't it? And, generally, when I'm using such things, I've got it set up as either/or setups. Why, one would almost think I put some thought into what I type.


Dispel Magic = 3rd lvl spell, and is still subject to a dice roll to determine if it will succeed.
There's ways around that, with additional feats (which he has some room for) - and the targetted dispel (preferably Greater Dispel or something even tastier) will also take down other buffs the target has up, as well. And even without that, most builds have something that makes them useless - True Seeing nixes Illusionists, Mind Blank nixes Enchanters, and so on. Why should this be held to different standards?


Shield = 1st lvl spell. And since we're talking about some pretty high lvl characters here, wizards/sorcerers will either be taking multiple Shields, or having wands of them.

Yes, so we have a relatively small portion of opponents that require him to use a back-up plan. So?


So if we take into account the fact that he's a sorcerer (meaning one lvl behind a regular wizard), and the fact that he's losing caster lvls with AS and Force Mage or whatever he's called, AND losing feats getting weapon proficiency, combat casting, that makes him what 4 lvl behind a full spellcaster? And just for getting a stronger Magic Missle damage? Somehow I don't think it evens out with the number of caster lvls you lose.
So it's not an Optimal build - is that really so much of a problem?

Gorbash
2008-06-05, 09:14 AM
Funny how I also don't suggest them in the same sentence, and include those pesky little "if" clauses when I'm discussing the results of one choice or another, isn't it? And, generally, when I'm using such things, I've got it set up as either/or setups. Why, one would almost think I put some thought into what I type.

But there's a lot of ifs there. And you cannot negate them all, since clearly IF you are an elf, you can't be a kobold, and take the said penalty in caster lvls.


There's ways around that, with additional feats (which he has some room for) - and the targetted dispel (preferably Greater Dispel or something even tastier)

Yes, there are ways to increase your chance of using a 3rd lvl spell slot to dispel a 1st lvl spell, that's all I'm saying. He'll run out of dispels long before the other caster runs out of shields.


So it's not an Optimal build - is that really so much of a problem?

Since we're talking about optimizing it, it makes sense that not being optimized is a problem. If he's only intrested in the flavor of the Force users, he can just call himself a force mage and use a bunch of force spells, like miko is a Monk/Paladin but still a Samurai yadayada...

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 09:25 AM
But there's a lot of ifs there. And you cannot negate them all, since clearly IF you are an elf, you can't be a kobold, and take the said penalty in caster lvls.

Right. And whenever I'm formating one of those, it's (Default situation), or (mitigation effect and method). The mitigation method is not part of the primary build, but an optional tweak. Which ones you use depend on the flavor of the character. It's not exactly a helpless build, even without any of the mitigations.


Yes, there are ways to increase your chance of using a 3rd lvl spell slot to dispel a 1st lvl spell, that's all I'm saying. He'll run out of dispels long before the other caster runs out of shields.

I'm curious - are you actually reading my posts, or just short portions? Because if you're facing a caster, they're liable to be buffed up... and the Dispel will get rid of more than just the Shield. It'll also have a chance of taking out, say, that Mage Armor spell, that Fly spell, and so on. And at the same time, he's doing a small amount of damage (thanks to Argent Savant's nifty when dispelling Force effects), and still has the ability to do a small amount of actual zappage after getting rid of the spell effect (he's got an ability to do swift-action castings of Magic Missile, thanks to class abilities).

Additionally, if the target is renewing the Shield spell from 1st level spell slots or a Wand, the target is expending his standard action on it... and the target took damage when the Shield was dispelled. That's a losing game for the target.


Since we're talking about optimizing it, it makes sense that not being optimized is a problem. If he's only intrested in the flavor of the Force users, he can just call himself a force mage and use a bunch of force spells, like miko is a Monk/Paladin but still a Samurai yadayada...
Optimize too much, and you get pun-pun at 1st level. This is still fundamentally going to be a blaster build - and those are, pretty much by definition, non-optimal. We're working out ways to make it a little better. His back-up plan doesn't need to be optimal, it just needs to be reasonably effective.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-05, 01:58 PM
Ok, wait, a few clarifications here. I thought either FMM or AS had bonuses to get past Brooches of Shielding or Shield at one point. Also, someone mentioned a Cleric with the Force domain? Would this be a better alternative to the sorceror?

Ned the undead
2008-06-05, 02:03 PM
I'm suprosed no one mentioned Chain Missle yet.
It's in the SpC. Think Chain Lightning but Magic Missle instead.

tyckspoon
2008-06-05, 02:06 PM
Ok, wait, a few clarifications here. I thought either FMM or AS had bonuses to get past Brooches of Shielding or Shield at one point. Also, someone mentioned a Cleric with the Force domain? Would this be a better alternative to the sorceror?

The 3rd level feature of Force Missile Mage lets you make a caster level check to overcome Shield, with a DC of the spell's caster level or 20 for a Brooch. Not too hard to do, with the benefit of d20+caster level against just caster level.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-05, 02:12 PM
Ok, wait, a few clarifications here. I thought either FMM or AS had bonuses to get past Brooches of Shielding or Shield at one point.
Not exactly. Argent Savant gets bonuses for dispelling Force Effects - which helps get by Shield. Nevermind - that's what I get for not having FMM handy.

Also, someone mentioned a Cleric with the Force domain? Would this be a better alternative to the sorceror?Not really - unless you've got a way to spontaneously convert to Force Domain spells.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-05, 03:05 PM
I have found that Warmage does better in blasty builds like this.

Rapid Metamagic is a must.

You should spend a few feats on Twin Spell, Practical Metamagic (twin spell), and Easy Metamagic (twin spell), to make it only +2 levels.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-05, 05:38 PM
I have found that Warmage does better in blasty builds like this.

Rapid Metamagic is a must.

You should spend a few feats on Twin Spell, Practical Metamagic (twin spell), and Easy Metamagic (twin spell), to make it only +2 levels.

A warmage: 1) Can't fly, or cast Mirror Image, or do anything else to keep himself alive.

2) Can't cast Arcane Fusion or Greater Arcane Fusion or Chain Missile, thus sucking horribly at spamming MM death.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-05, 08:51 PM
Oh, question. FMM is a d4 hit die, yes?

MelkorsHalo
2008-06-05, 09:42 PM
FMM is a d8, actually. hm. didn't notice that before.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-05, 10:09 PM
FMM is a d8, actually. hm. didn't notice that before.

You sure? My Crystal Keep thingy says it's a d4...

MelkorsHalo
2008-06-06, 12:32 PM
well, i have the dragon compendium in front of me, and that's what it says. maybe crystalkeep has the old one? i don't know if they changed anything when they put it in the compendium. does seem odd, though.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-06, 06:54 PM
well, i have the dragon compendium in front of me, and that's what it says. maybe crystalkeep has the old one? i don't know if they changed anything when they put it in the compendium. does seem odd, though.

WELL then. That's awesome. A Spell Class with a d8 hit die. I like that.