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View Full Version : Best use of physics in DND (AKA: Let's kill ALL the catgirls!)



Enlong
2008-06-03, 10:17 PM
What are some of your best stories about utilizing math/physics to produce awesome effects within the world of DND?

I have no actual stories from my group, but I do remember hearing about a group who had two Ring Gates. They attached a thick sheet of adamantine with a 1-inch diameter hole in it to one Gate, and teleported the other to the bottom of the ocean. The water pressure involved, combined with the tiny exit point allowed by the nigh-unbreakable adamantine, created enough force to make a stream of water that could lightly sprinkle the moon. And punch through just about any enemy they chose to fight.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-03, 10:20 PM
If you can convince the DM to allow realistic terminal velocity rules (no terminal velocity in a vacuum) then you can do some fun things.

Oh, when you turn a Bag of Holding inside out RAW everything inside is emptied out. That includes air. When you turn it right side out you will get a pretty good vacuum.

Copacetic
2008-06-03, 10:22 PM
The Reverse-gravity-on-a-black-hole was a pretty funny thread. Yay destroying the universe. :smallsmile:.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-03, 10:25 PM
Other than using Major creation to make a huge amount of anti-osmium and fracture the planet? nope havent seen anything used.

Daracaex
2008-06-03, 10:25 PM
I never actually did it, but I had an idea of a criminal group in a city electroplating gold onto copper pieces with electricity-based magic to create counterfeit gold pieces.:smallbiggrin: The science might not be exactly right, but the concept is there.

ahammer
2008-06-03, 10:27 PM
I remember in a game that I combind holy water and unholy water.. and it made a big boom..

so I made glass hand grends with them..most games passed that one have just made water when I add to two togeter

Sir_Elderberry
2008-06-03, 10:31 PM
Eh, pythagorean theorem for 3D combat to prove to the DM that I was, in fact, in range to hit the manticore with Command. Hey, you, fall prone.

FlyMolo
2008-06-03, 10:40 PM
Anti-Osmium, the BoH idea is good.

Oh, my favorite one is 6 walls of force, and then you empty out the air inside with the BoH. Instant air balloon! Better than hydrogen. :smallbiggrin:

The classic one is Fly and Fabricate, then you get a silly long-range weapon to fire it at earth from the moon. Fabricate is for the ammo, and I did the math around here somewhere. Punches 830 mile deep holes in the earth, for a 1 pound item. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-03, 10:48 PM
The classic one is Fly and Fabricate, then you get a silly long-range weapon to fire it at earth from the moon. Fabricate is for the ammo, and I did the math around here somewhere. Punches 830 mile deep holes in the earth, for a 1 pound item. :smallbiggrin:

If you get "realistic" Terminal Velocity rules. Those allow for lots of fun stuff.

Another fun one is how to make a black hole:
Step 1: Make a box of force
Step 2: Activate a Decanter of Endless Water inside the box.
Step 3: Teleport out of the box.
Step 4: Wait.

Another good one is the steam cannon.

As above but throw a few permanent walls of fire in the box as well. Wait until it is filled with steam and then dismiss one of the walls.

Mark Hall
2008-06-03, 10:52 PM
Using 2nd edition Levitate and a really big rock to introduce a dragon to Newton's 1st Law of Motion and Principle of Gravitation.

Enlong
2008-06-03, 10:54 PM
If you get "realistic" Terminal Velocity rules. Those allow for lots of fun stuff.

Another fun one is how to make a black hole:
Step 1: Make a box of force
Step 2: Activate a Decanter of Endless Water inside the box.
Step 3: Teleport out of the box.
Step 4: Wait.

Another good one is the steam cannon.

As above but throw a few permanent walls of fire in the box as well. Wait until it is filled with steam and then dismiss one of the walls.Speaking of Terminal Velocity rules, there's the Ring Gate Cannon.

Step 1: Make a Tube of Force with a ring gate on either end, and put two more Walls of Force to make the whole thing perfectly enclosed.
Step 2: Pump the air out of the tube
Step 3: Teleport a pebble into the tube
Step 4: Wait until it reaches terminal velocity
Step 5: Aim the tube at your target, dismiss the Wall on that end, and Teleport the Ring Gate away.
Step 6: Watch your pebble punch a hole through your target
Step 7: Repeat with something bigger and heavier.

monty
2008-06-03, 10:55 PM
The classic one is Fly and Fabricate, then you get a silly long-range weapon to fire it at earth from the moon. Fabricate is for the ammo, and I did the math around here somewhere. Punches 830 mile deep holes in the earth, for a 1 pound item. :smallbiggrin:

Air resistance much? A 1-pound item at that speed would burn up pretty quickly.

Collin152
2008-06-03, 10:58 PM
Air resistance much? A 1-pound item at that speed would burn up pretty quickly.

Depends on the item.
Adamantium might not burn up at all.
Starmetal seems to survive atmosphere well enough.

FlyMolo
2008-06-03, 11:08 PM
Air resistance much? A 1-pound item at that speed would burn up pretty quickly.

Well, with Fabricate, you have a whole moon of things to throw at earth. I just worked it out for a 1-pound item because that's the minimum. A 100-pound item doesn't do 100x the damage, just 7x. Take it up with the falling rules.

jcsw
2008-06-03, 11:32 PM
Speaking of Terminal Velocity rules, there's the Ring Gate Cannon.

Step 1: Make a Tube of Force with a ring gate on either end, and put two more Walls of Force to make the whole thing perfectly enclosed.
Step 2: Pump the air out of the tube
Step 3: Teleport a pebble into the tube
Step 4: Wait until it reaches terminal velocity
Step 5: Aim the tube at your target, dismiss the Wall on that end, and Teleport the Ring Gate away.
Step 6: Watch your pebble punch a hole through your target
Step 7: Repeat with something bigger and heavier.

Isn't there a limit to the total mass of things you can transport with that?

Enlong
2008-06-03, 11:44 PM
Isn't there a limit to the total mass of things you can transport with that?

100 pounds per day.

For example, a coin is a fraction of an ounce: 50 to the pound

So you can transport a coin 5000 times a day.
A pebble would have smaller mass, so even more times per day.
As long as the item is small and the tube is long, the Ring Gate Cannon works (more tube length means more acceleration with each teleport, for no increase in weight (Wall of Force weighs nothing).)

Chronos
2008-06-04, 12:02 AM
Another fun one is how to make a black hole:
Step 1: Make a box of force
Step 2: Activate a Decanter of Endless Water inside the box.
Step 3: Teleport out of the box.
Step 4: Wait.
Even assuming that the Decanter isn't destroyed or deactivated first, it'll take a lot of waiting. A black hole the mass of the Earth would have a Schwartzschild radius of order a centimeter. So if your box of force is about 20 cm on a side (just barely big enough to hold a Decanter, I'd reckon), you'd need to cram ten times the mass of the Earth into it. Of course, you could get all sorts of other interesting effects long before you reached that point.

NephandiMan
2008-06-04, 12:09 AM
I divided by zero.

OH SHI-

MammonAzrael
2008-06-04, 12:10 AM
Air resistance much? A 1-pound item at that speed would burn up pretty quickly.

Enchant it with something. Minor fire resistance, for instance. Even a simple +1 of some sort should protect it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-04, 12:38 AM
Even assuming that the Decanter isn't destroyed or deactivated first, it'll take a lot of waiting. A black hole the mass of the Earth would have a Schwartzschild radius of order a centimeter. So if your box of force is about 20 cm on a side (just barely big enough to hold a Decanter, I'd reckon), you'd need to cram ten times the mass of the Earth into it. Of course, you could get all sorts of other interesting effects long before you reached that point.

Yes, it would take a lot of waiting. A little over 1012 trillion years actually (assuming only 1 decanter).

If you go with 63 decanters you can get an earth mass in a over 9 and a half hours.

Swordguy
2008-06-04, 12:58 AM
My anti-osmium trick, obviously.

And I've always rather been partial to the "Commoner Quarterstaff Railgun" trick.

There was a trick I saw that generated c-fractional (as in 0.5-c or greater) impacts from orbit, but I don't recall how it worked offhand.

Convincing the DM that physics and magic can't exist in the same world (conservation of energy, etc), and since we were clearly affected by basic physical forces (gravity, et al), magic could not exist. Ergot, when the party mage tried to cast a spell, it auto-failed. Basically, magic left the game world. The look on the wizard's face was...impressive.

And that thing with the Ring Gate at the bottom of the ocean is pretty damn nice as well. Gratz.

Nohwl
2008-06-04, 01:01 AM
whats that quarter staff railgun thing? how does it work?

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-04, 01:07 AM
And I've always rather been partial to the "Commoner Quarterstaff Railgun" trick.
That one doesn't actually work. It has to do with frames of refrence. From the Quarterstaffs point of view it's velocity never exceeds more than 5 feet per second or so. From an observers point of view the Quarterstaff achieves a velocity measured in %c. But the impact energy of an object is done based on its own frame of reference.


There was a trick I saw that generated c-fractional (as in 0.5-c or greater) impacts from orbit, but I don't recall how it worked offhand.
Nested Ring Gates or an undead mouse tied to a metal ball and a Teleportation Circle (TC only transports creatures).


And that thing with the Ring Gate at the bottom of the ocean is pretty damn nice as well. Gratz.
Yes it is.

Another fun one is ring gates and a 10 foot poll. Have someone hold the poll and 2 other people each hold a ring gate and just start sliding them down the poll. That does some interesting things, tends to result in a boom.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-06-04, 01:36 AM
The Reverse-gravity-on-a-black-hole was a pretty funny thread. Yay destroying the universe. :smallsmile:.
Why would this do anything amazing at all? The only reason black holes are remarkable is that they are so dense. Since the force would be repulsive, all it would do is expel the things around it, where they'd feel less force. A reverse-black hole wouldn't "destroy the universe" any more than a free proton would, unless the black hole was massive enough to cause such damage before the spell was cast.

Maxymiuk
2008-06-04, 04:07 AM
whats that quarter staff railgun thing? how does it work?

1) Get a line of commoners a few miles long
2) Hand the one at the start a quarterstaff, and tell him to pass it down the line
3) Teleport away (it's important, trust me on this)
4) Passing an object to another person is a free action.
5) Thus the quarterstaff reaches the end of the line in a fraction of a second. It's reasonable to assume that (depending on the length of your line) at this point it just keeps going at an appreciable percentage of the speed of light.
6) If it hits something along the way, there's not going to be a lot of it left.
7) Seeing as at this speed friction is going to ignite the air around the high velocity projectile of DOOM quarterstaff, you'll probably need more commoners for an encore (also, remember what I told you about teleporting away? Yeah).

FMArthur
2008-06-04, 06:42 AM
The DM, in his infinite wisdom, once gave my party two sets of Ring Gates, one normal sized and one slightly smaller. Small enough to fit through the larger Ring Gates.

We were outdoors and in sight of the BBEG's castle. We came up with a plan, and bought another normal set of Ring Gates.

Basically, we made the usual Tubes of Force on the two normal-sized sets of them, sucked out the air, and put one end of the smaller Ring Gate through one, so we had a small Ring Gate moving at massive speeds before long. The other Tube of Force contained a cannonball we were accelerating, and underneath the exit-point of the tube, the other part of the smaller Ring Gate. So when both the small Ring Gate and the cannonball were at speeds we approved of, we fired the smaller Ring Gate at the BBEG's castle and had the end of the cannonball-tube set to teleport away when this happened, so it went off at just about the same time as the smaller gate. What we ended up with was a Ring Gate moving insanely fast adding its speed to the cannonball, going just as fast. The ball blew up the castle and we were essentially blown away by the forces coming out of the fixed side of the small Ring Gate.

Bender
2008-06-04, 07:10 AM
I have no actual stories from my group, but I do remember hearing about a group who had two Ring Gates. They attached a thick sheet of adamantine with a 1-inch diameter hole in it to one Gate, and teleported the other to the bottom of the ocean. The water pressure involved, combined with the tiny exit point allowed by the nigh-unbreakable adamantine, created enough force to make a stream of water that could lightly sprinkle the moon. And punch through just about any enemy they chose to fight.
I'll have to do some nitpicking here :smallredface:
The water jet will never be higher than the ocean is deep. In fact, due to air resistance, it will be considerably lower.
The 1000 bar of pressure you get for a 10 km deep ocean is just about enough to cut through anything (water jet cutting actually uses 1500-3500 bar; I don't know about adamantine), but only for the first meter or so, but it will probably be letal for several meters after that.
The problem might be fixing the adamant sheet, because the force on it would be ridiculous.
It would be great if you could mix some sand or small stones in the water at the bottom of the ocean.

This is actually a great idea for a mythical well at the start of a river. The river ends in the ocean and the circle is round. If you put the ring on another plane, you will over time empty the ocean (and drown the nine layers of the abbys :smallamused:).

EDIT: actually, there is no reason why you would only make a small hole, the ring gates should be just as effective (if not more) with the entire area spewing water.

DigoDragon
2008-06-04, 07:27 AM
Awww, but I like cat girls. :smalltongue:
I remember a nice epic fight I ran as DM on a stone dam against a black dragon. The dragon was actually losing to the quite resourceful party until he was thrown into the water. That's when I realized his most useless spell (I had randomly chosen the spells he had that encounter) would suddenly win him the battle.

Stone to Mud. Target- Dam.

Calculating the force of the water, the velocity of the party getting washed down river, and the subsequent impact against the log cabin village at the bottom... my black dragon "TPK"ed the village. :smallbiggrin:

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-04, 07:31 AM
Stone to Mud is definitely not a useless spell.

It's one that takes some imagination to use.


Though, I think doesn't it not work on cut or magical stone?

Ulrichomega
2008-06-04, 08:49 AM
A friend of mine once had a really cool use of "Ray of Enfeeblement".

We were chasing a 4 horse carriage along a dirt road on horses. The carriage was transporting some really valuable stuff, so it was made from metal (the entire thing). He hit the two first two horses with the spell intending to slow them down. He rolled well, and they both dropped unconcious due to overexertion from the chase and the sudden loss of strength. The front end of the arm that holds the horses together falls into a hole in the dirt. The whole carriage flips end over end, reaching a height of 40 feet in the air. It crashed into a building and the highly volatile substances inside of the carriage ignited causing a blast roughly equivalent to a small nuclear blast.

Didn't end too well for us, but fun none the less.

Bender
2008-06-04, 09:53 AM
We were chasing a 4 horse carriage along a dirt road on horses. The carriage was transporting some really valuable stuff, so it was made from metal (the entire thing). He hit the two first two horses with the spell intending to slow them down. He rolled well, and they both dropped unconcious due to overexertion from the chase and the sudden loss of strength. The front end of the arm that holds the horses together falls into a hole in the dirt. The whole carriage flips end over end, reaching a height of 40 feet in the air. It crashed into a building and the highly volatile substances inside of the carriage ignited causing a blast roughly equivalent to a small nuclear blast.
Although it sounds cool in game, it doesn't exactly kill any catgirls... To reach a height of 40 feet (or 13 meter), the speed of the car would have to be 57 km/h. Some horses can reach that speed, but I doubt they'd manage with an extremely heavy metal carriage behind them. (or where they maybe magically strengthened or hasted?)
It's a nice example of a action scene and very cool in game, but I refuse to consider it physics :smallwink:


Calculating the force of the water, the velocity of the party getting washed down river, and the subsequent impact against the log cabin village at the bottom... my black dragon "TPK"ed the village.
Similar note: I doubt you actually managed to calculate the force. You could make a very rough estimate (unless you're familiar with computational fluid dynamics and decided to build a computer model and wait for the hours it can take to solve it). It's just a cool decision on behalf of the DM :smallcool:.

After being a nitpicking jerk, let me conclude by saying it's fun to read about uses of physics without actually killing members of a cute race :smallsmile:.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-04, 12:02 PM
1) Get a line of commoners a few miles long
2) Hand the one at the start a quarterstaff, and tell him to pass it down the line
Both correct.

3) Teleport away (it's important, trust me on this)
Not needed.

4) Passing an object to another person is a free action.
Correct.
5) Thus the quarterstaff reaches the end of the line in a fraction of a second. [/quote]
Correct.


It's reasonable to assume that (depending on the length of your line) at this point it just keeps going at an appreciable percentage of the speed of light.
No it is not reasonable to assume that. Frame of reference is important. Unless the quarterstaff is accelerated up to light speed (or close to it), which it is not, it only has a velocity and KE equal to how high it has been accelerated (about 5 feet/second).

6) If it hits something along the way, there's not going to be a lot of it left.
Incorrect.

7) Seeing as at this speed friction is going to ignite the air around the high velocity projectile of DOOM quarterstaff, you'll probably need more commoners for an encore (also, remember what I told you about teleporting away? Yeah).
Incorrect.

Aron Times
2008-06-04, 01:10 PM
What about using Reverse Gravity to launch spacecraft? I mean, just in case the Interplanar Astral Station's only toilet malfunctions...

Chronos
2008-06-04, 01:47 PM
5) Thus the quarterstaff reaches the end of the line in a fraction of a second. It's reasonable to assume that (depending on the length of your line) at this point it just keeps going at an appreciable percentage of the speed of light.Actually, all that happens is that the last commoner in the line throws it, with a range increment of 10 feet an additional -4 penalty for not being a throwing weapon, for 1d6 damage plus whatever the commoner's strength mod is. He who lives by the strict reading of the RAW dies by the strict reading of the RAW.

Quoth Emperor Tippy:
Yes, it would take a lot of waiting. A little over 1012 trillion years actually (assuming only 1 decanter).

If you go with 63 decanters you can get an earth mass in a over 9 and a half hours.Your first figure looks about right, but you might want to double-check your second.

GoC
2008-06-04, 04:31 PM
The classic one is Fly and Fabricate, then you get a silly long-range weapon to fire it at earth from the moon. Fabricate is for the ammo, and I did the math around here somewhere. Punches 830 mile deep holes in the earth, for a 1 pound item. :smallbiggrin:

You might want to recheck that maths.:smalltongue:
It's only moving at 11 kilometers per second and releasing 28 million J on impact.
For comparison that's about 7 kilograms of TNT.

Ned the undead
2008-06-04, 04:39 PM
Eh, pythagorean theorem for 3D combat to prove to the DM that I was, in fact, in range to hit the manticore with Command. Hey, you, fall prone.

Not exactly physics, but a very good use of mathmatics.

FlyMolo
2008-06-04, 04:49 PM
You might want to recheck that maths.:smalltongue:
It's only moving at 11 kilometers per second and releasing 28 million J on impact.
For comparison that's about 7 kilograms of TNT.

DnD is a silly abstraction. I assumed that according to the falling tables every 70 feet it traveled added another 1d6 damage. The moon is a quarter million miles, times 5280/70, equals lots d6. Stone has so many hp/inch of thickness. 15 hp/inch.

Lessee, 1.3 billion feet. That's about right. quarter million times 4 an a bit, times a thousand? million times a thousand is a billion. That /70 is about 19 million increments of 70 feet. average damage on that many d6 is about 66 million. 66million/15 hp/inch makes 4 million inches, or 368 thousand feet, or 70 miles. Hmm. I think I forgot to convert to inches before I converted to feet.

70 miles is still pretty deep. That's the upper mantle, isn't it?

That's for a gargantuan sized arrow, made of wood.

Reinboom
2008-06-04, 05:04 PM
Awww, but I like cat girls. :smalltongue:
Aww, thanks. *hugs*

[4e]
Be a warlord.
Line up a long series of commoners.
Activate White Raven Onslaught daily power. and hit... something.
Stand near the first commoner. Have the commoner make an attack against something rather difficult to miss (the ground? doesn't matter, just make sure the attack is successful).
Repeat. Move 5 feet with each hit.

Railgun warlord? :smalltongue:

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-04, 05:09 PM
Can a Catgirl composed of Anti Matter be summoned?

FlyMolo
2008-06-04, 05:18 PM
The thing about the commoner railgun is this: It makes no sense. Information is lost when you make a 3d scene into a 2d picture. That makes those weird bendy triangle images. The impossible ones. (http://www.wikihow.com/images/9/94/Z_impossibletriangle07.jpg)

The same thing happens with DnD and real life. In DnD, passing a quarterstaff takes zero time, and covers a finite nonzero distance. the velocity becomes inifinity. Not large, infinity. This is impossible in the real world, by the way. And you only need two commoners to get this effect.

If you round up the time required to 6 seconds, then you need a lot of commoners to get the distance you need. The average velocity of the staff becomes the number of commoners *5/6 feet/second. But really, even if you have a hundred thousand commoners, they pass it instantly. The last commoner gets the staff and holds it for 6 seconds. The elapsed distance is more than 5 feet, and the elapsed time is zero. Calculate the speed, and you get divide by zero error. Undefined.

That's either inifinity, zero, or divide by cucumber error, please install universe and reboot. So that's why you can't agree. there's no right answer.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-04, 05:19 PM
If you look at the weights of an empty flask and a flask full of any alchemical substance, you will see that the full flasks weigh lighter than the empty flasks.

We were doing a fight-against-the-undead campaign, so we got an allied order of local clerics to enchant as much holy water as they could.


We made a bunch of holy water-filled blimps and crashed them into the BBEG's undead army.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-06-04, 07:11 PM
That's either inifinity, zero, or divide by cucumber error, please install universe and reboot. So that's why you can't agree. there's no right answer.
Look, it's not that hard to just calculate the lower limit of the average velocity as you already laid out in your post to at the least humour them. It's just being obtuse to see only the instantaneous movement as a possible interpretation.

monty
2008-06-04, 07:16 PM
Zeno's quarterstaff!

Thiel
2008-06-05, 02:30 AM
Actually, a free action takes a negligible amount of time, and not zero amount of time.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-05, 03:36 AM
Have the commoner make an attack against something rather difficult to miss (the ground? doesn't matter, just make sure the attack is successful).

The problem is that everybody in the entire game has at least a 5% chance of missing the ground... :smalltongue:

Thiel
2008-06-05, 04:30 AM
The problem is that everybody in the entire game has at least a 5% chance of missing the ground... :smalltongue:

So it's a railgun with a few bugs.

DigoDragon
2008-06-05, 07:06 AM
Stone to Mud is definitely not a useless spell. It's one that takes some imagination to use.

Though, I think doesn't it not work on cut or magical stone?

Definitely takes imagination to use. It's one spell I haven't had a lot of practice with to get mileage out of. As for the dam, it was made of large unworked rocks piled into the river with a sort of clay as a cement. I figure that was fair enough to count as unworked stone. Had I made the bridge out of cut stone then the spell wouldn't have worked. I give luck some of the credit.



Aww, thanks. *hugs*

Aww shucks. What can I say, I love cats. :smallredface:
Railgun Warlord? That's an interesting one!

Reinboom
2008-06-05, 07:35 AM
The problem is that everybody in the entire game has at least a 5% chance of missing the ground... :smalltongue:

This is where you take advantage of opportunity attacks then, since the trigger is a successful attack (not which type).
C is for a commoner...er...the equivalent there of, W is for a warlord.


[ ][ ][C][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][C][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][C][W][ ]
[ ][ ][C][ ][ ]

The warlord starts with three adjacent commoners. The bottom most commoner makes an attack. Even if it misses, it uses a move action to move to the left one, but not as a shift. Thus, it provokes an opportunity attack from the next commoner above it. If that attack hits, the sequence continues.
If both miss (1 in 400 chance) then the next commoner can still make an attack - and do the opportunity attack sequence.
This, is another 1 in 400 chance of failing. However, in order to reach this portion overall, this would be a rare 1 in 160000 chance of failing.
However... even if that fails. The commoner above him is -still- able to do both actions.

sonofzeal
2008-06-05, 07:53 AM
Speaking of Terminal Velocity rules, there's the Ring Gate Cannon.

Step 1: Make a Tube of Force with a ring gate on either end, and put two more Walls of Force to make the whole thing perfectly enclosed.
Step 2: Pump the air out of the tube
Step 3: Teleport a pebble into the tube
Step 4: Wait until it reaches terminal velocity
Step 5: Aim the tube at your target, dismiss the Wall on that end, and Teleport the Ring Gate away.
Step 6: Watch your pebble punch a hole through your target
Step 7: Repeat with something bigger and heavier.
If you {a} create total vacume insidea, and {b} cast Grease on the walls, there IS no terminal velocity. Can you say "Large Hadron Collider"? Would be pretty easy to turn it into a nuke.

GoC
2008-06-05, 11:17 AM
DnD is a silly abstraction. I assumed that according to the falling tables every 70 feet it traveled added another 1d6 damage. The moon is a quarter million miles, times 5280/70, equals lots d6. Stone has so many hp/inch of thickness. 15 hp/inch.

Lessee, 1.3 billion feet. That's about right. quarter million times 4 an a bit, times a thousand? million times a thousand is a billion. That /70 is about 19 million increments of 70 feet. average damage on that many d6 is about 66 million. 66million/15 hp/inch makes 4 million inches, or 368 thousand feet, or 70 miles. Hmm. I think I forgot to convert to inches before I converted to feet.

70 miles is still pretty deep. That's the upper mantle, isn't it?

That's for a gargantuan sized arrow, made of wood.

The title of the thread says this is about physics and that definitely isn't physics.:smallsmile:

elliott20
2008-06-05, 12:51 PM
Here's a webcomic example
http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp06062003.gif

Fighteer
2008-06-05, 01:41 PM
DnD is a silly abstraction. I assumed that according to the falling tables every 70 feet it traveled added another 1d6 damage. The moon is a quarter million miles, times 5280/70, equals lots d6. Stone has so many hp/inch of thickness. 15 hp/inch.

Lessee, 1.3 billion feet. That's about right. quarter million times 4 an a bit, times a thousand? million times a thousand is a billion. That /70 is about 19 million increments of 70 feet. average damage on that many d6 is about 66 million. 66million/15 hp/inch makes 4 million inches, or 368 thousand feet, or 70 miles. Hmm. I think I forgot to convert to inches before I converted to feet.

70 miles is still pretty deep. That's the upper mantle, isn't it?

That's for a gargantuan sized arrow, made of wood.
Let us not forget that the moon is in orbit around the Earth, and therefore so is anything at rest with respect to the moon. If you throw or shoot something off of the moon, it will just fall right back down again. If you somehow manage to throw it hard enough "towards the Earth" to exceed the moon's escape velocity, your object will simply continue to follow roughly the same orbit - and in fact, due to basic laws of motion, will end up right back where it started on the next revolution.

To get your object to "fall" to the Earth, it would have to be at rest with respect to the Earth, or at least moving slowly enough for its orbit to decay. To do this, you either have to lift it "straight up" without imparting any orbital momentum, to a height equivalent to the moon's orbit, or you have to throw it off the moon "backwards" with respect to the moon's orbit. (According to Wikipedia, the moon's orbital velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon) is 1.023 km/s, and you'd have to achieve a fairly significant fraction of that.)

If you can manage this feat, it still burns up in atmosphere unless it's really darn big (or dense). Plus, unless it's super dense, it wouldn't penetrate very far into the ground; kinetic energy tends to disperse on impact. Lastly, you'd have one heck of a hard time aiming it.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-05, 01:47 PM
Here's a webcomic example
http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp06062003.gif

Hilarious, yet, slightly nauseating.

NephandiMan
2008-06-05, 02:00 PM
Here's a webcomic example
http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp06062003.gif

You've read it. You can't unread it.

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-05, 02:00 PM
Good Ole Something Positive.

elliott20
2008-06-06, 08:44 AM
of course, I personally thought it would have been faster for him (the flash) to just run up and smack him in the face instead of trying to masturbate at lightning speed.

Mark Hall
2008-06-06, 09:11 AM
of course, I personally thought it would have been faster for him (the flash) to just run up and smack him in the face instead of trying to masturbate at lightning speed.

Yes, but nowhere near as funny, nor as in character for Jason.

elliott20
2008-06-06, 10:14 AM
now imagine a deepwood sniper build that uses THAT as his primary weapon.

Sneak Attack Bukkake!!! We call this "shame" damage.

Irreverent Fool
2008-06-06, 07:06 PM
Anti-Osmium, the BoH idea is good.

Oh, my favorite one is 6 walls of force, and then you empty out the air inside with the BoH. Instant air balloon! Better than hydrogen. :smallbiggrin:

Does that actually work? I didn't think 'nothing' had any buoyancy.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-06, 07:09 PM
Does that actually work? I didn't think 'nothing' had any buoyancy.

I too was confused. I didnt think you could move Walls of Force?

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-06-06, 07:20 PM
Does that actually work? I didn't think 'nothing' had any buoyancy.
A vacuum has better buoyancy than any matter, because it lowers the density even more. What, did you think a rigid balloon that kept losing its gas would get lighter and lighter until it lost the last molecule, at which point it instantly becomes heavier? :smalltongue:

monty
2008-06-06, 08:49 PM
A vacuum has better buoyancy than any matter, because it lowers the density even more. What, did you think a rigid balloon that kept losing its gas would get lighter and lighter until it lost the last molecule, at which point it instantly becomes heavier? :smalltongue:

I assumed "nothing" as in the walls of force were "nothing." I don't think force effects are affected by gravity.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-06-06, 10:09 PM
I assumed "nothing" as in the walls of force were "nothing." I don't think force effects are affected by gravity.
Oh, well, the net force on the cube from buoyancy and gravity should just be (air density)*V*g upward, since there's no mass involved. Although, if we include air resistance, I have no idea how this is going to work, with the massless object involved.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-06, 11:02 PM
Except that walls of force are stated to be immovable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-06-06, 11:22 PM
Except that walls of force are stated to be immovable.So does that mean you could kill someone by casting Wall of Force, then letting the earth's rotation crsh them into a wall?

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-06-06, 11:49 PM
Except that walls of force are stated to be immovable.
Already stated; I think we're just ignoring that fact to figure out what would happen if they could move.

_Zoot_
2008-06-07, 02:00 AM
So does that mean you could kill someone by casting Wall of Force, then letting the earth's rotation crsh them into a wall?

That is a good way to get rid of walls, forts and the like, put a wall of force in fornt of it and let the earth do the rest

Thiel
2008-06-07, 07:07 AM
Good luck aiming it though. You'll have to take into account not only the earth's rotation but also it's orbital speed and direction and galactic expansion.

Zenos
2008-06-07, 08:48 AM
So does that mean you could kill someone by casting Wall of Force, then letting the earth's rotation crsh them into a wall?

This has kinda bugged me about anti-gravity vehicles, they must have some kind of gravitation stuff to not be flung out into space or crashed into something.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-06-07, 10:23 AM
Not exactly physics, but a very good use of mathmatics.

I think my DM just sucks at will saves, because the very next session I was able to do basically the same thing to a young green dragon we were fighting. (Nobody had been able to hit it because it would swoop down, acid breath, and then fly as high as it could and sit there. So I just readied to cast when it came down and managed to hit it.)

My hope is that we get to level 9 by the time the campaign is done, just so I can cast greater command on his flying creatures.

SilentNight
2008-06-07, 10:36 AM
The commoner rail gun: Get about one thousand commoners in a straight line. Give the one on the end a rock. He will take a move action to pass it to the next schmuck. Since a round is six seconds, the rock will have travelled roughly 5,000 feet in under six seconds. All the last commoner has to do is let go of the rock....

Gashad
2008-06-07, 10:46 AM
So does that mean you could kill someone by casting Wall of Force, then letting the earth's rotation crsh them into a wall?

This posses a physics problem, relativity teaches us that their is no ultimate frame of reference, and hence all velocities are relative. No object can be immovable(i.e stationary, with zero velocity) in all frames of references. In other words per physics a truly immovable/stationary object cannot exist. Hence you could argue that the word immovable causes a paradox which would destroy the universe(even though no dm would except it and would just go with Rules as intended). However I would find it much harder for you to justify why the wall of force should have just such a specific velocity that it would be stationary as opposed to the worlds spinning.

And I don't want to know how many cat girls I just killed.

Silence
2008-06-07, 11:04 AM
Eh, pythagorean theorem for 3D combat to prove to the DM that I was, in fact, in range to hit the manticore with Command. Hey, you, fall prone.

I did that once.

My DM is a math buff, and there was a time where the party had catapults and longbows, and was defending a hill.

Jesus, I think I learned more geometry then my entire last year of school there.

monty
2008-06-07, 12:41 PM
And I don't want to know how many cat girls I just killed.

Over nine thousand, perhaps?

Foeofthelance
2008-06-07, 03:16 PM
Had a party once kill a rock wurm by vibrating it to death. It involved a bag of holding and several hundred thunderstones going off at once. It was determined that the worm just shook apart.

We later ruled that science and advanced math (anything involving a formula more complicated than 'add' and 'subtract') was banned after an attempt to use physics to determine the zombie's location while dangling from circling pegasus, going at full flight speed, by a sixty foot chain, after being smacked by a God.

Chronos
2008-06-07, 03:35 PM
All the last commoner has to do is let go of the rock....Whereupon it drops harmlessly to his feet. The commoner railgun might work for transmitting messages long distances, or something like that, but it sucks as a weapon. Either you're using the D&D rules, in which case it does damage based on the last guy in line throwing it (with no bonuses from all the other commoners passing it), or you're using more realistic houserules which would say that a rock moving over 1000 feet/second is going to do some serious damage, but under such realistic houserules, the railgun wouldn't work in the first place.

Dr Bwaa
2008-06-07, 04:20 PM
So does that mean you could kill someone by casting Wall of Force, then letting the earth's rotation crsh them into a wall?

This posses a physics problem, relativity teaches us that their is no ultimate frame of reference, and hence all velocities are relative. No object can be immovable(i.e stationary, with zero velocity) in all frames of references. In other words per physics a truly immovable/stationary object cannot exist. Hence you could argue that the word immovable causes a paradox which would destroy the universe(even though no dm would except it and would just go with Rules as intended). However I would find it much harder for you to justify why the wall of force should have just such a specific velocity that it would be stationary as opposed to the worlds spinning.

And I don't want to know how many cat girls I just killed.

So, Wall of Force must (presumably) be intended to be Immovable from the frame of reference of the caster. Therefore, Timestop, cast wall of Force, and then get to the moon (or some such) before the Timestop ends. You've now cast a mall that is immovable with respect to the moon, and if you've done it right, will now scrape across the world forever, leveling everything in its path.

EDIT: Immovable Rods work, too :)

monty
2008-06-07, 04:50 PM
So, Wall of Force must (presumably) be intended to be Immovable from the frame of reference of the caster. Therefore, Timestop, cast wall of Force, and then get to the moon (or some such) before the Timestop ends. You've now cast a mall that is immovable with respect to the moon, and if you've done it right, will now scrape across the world forever, leveling everything in its path.

An immovable mall? That's crazy talk.:smallbiggrin:

If you cast Wall of Force on earth and go to the moon, wouldn't it use your frame of reference at the time you cast it? (i.e. the earth) And if you have a high enough caster level to cast it from the moon, you could just use epic magic and win anyway.

Dr Bwaa
2008-06-07, 04:54 PM
An immovable mall? That's crazy talk.:smallbiggrin:

Yes. An immovable mall. What is strange? :smallsmile:

Also,

If you cast Wall of Force on earth and go to the moon, wouldn't it use your frame of reference at the time you cast it? (i.e. the earth) And if you have a high enough caster level to cast it from the moon, you could just use epic magic and win anyway.

Timestop. Technically, you cast it while you were on the moon.

And finally, all you need is two Gates to get to the moon, I believe (or a set of Ring Gates, even better).

Worira
2008-06-07, 04:58 PM
Uh, no, you cast it while you were wherever you were when you cast it.

monty
2008-06-07, 05:02 PM
Timestop. Technically, you cast it while you were on the moon.

And finally, all you need is two Gates to get to the moon, I believe (or a set of Ring Gates, even better).


This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.

Time is still moving, just very slowly. And 10^-50000 after you cast the spell still comes before 2*10^-50000 after. Regardless, if we're going by your frame of reference, we're also going by your perception of time, which is unaffected by Time Stop.

And I wasn't talking about getting to the moon. I meant casting the spell on Earth's surface from the moon. Which would require a caster level of really high.

Dr Bwaa
2008-06-07, 05:24 PM
Well, you've got me there. I forgot that Timestop does not, in fact, stop time.

And yes, my original thought was casting it from the moon, but you're right, at that point you might as well just use epic magic and win D&D. Hm. I will find a way to make this work!

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-07, 05:29 PM
Well, do you need to be on the moon to cast it, just far away, or can you cast it fairly close?

Collin152
2008-06-07, 05:29 PM
Well, you've got me there. I forgot that Timestop does not, in fact, stop time.

And yes, my original thought was casting it from the moon, but you're right, at that point you might as well just use epic magic and win D&D. Hm. I will find a way to make this work!

Go to moon. Activate immovable Rod.
Cast Teleport Object on Rod.

Dr Bwaa
2008-06-07, 05:38 PM
If that works, (hard to say, the SRD is a bit unclear about teleporting immovable rods) the world still gets to make a DC30 strength check against it. Which it makes. On a botch.

If you could somehow get Mage Hand to work at such distances, you could just stand on the moon and press the button, or launch an arrow (see earlier) with some math, so that it goes moon-earth, hitting the button when it gets there. Though one might rule that it is then the arrow activating it, and the arrow's frame of reference is on earth... Maybe you could research Spectral Hand or Mage hand as a level 9 spell so it could have that kind of range.

Chronos
2008-06-07, 05:39 PM
There's also the problem that Teleport doesn't change your speed, so if you teleport to the Moon, then you'll have the same problems that you plan for the victims of your speedy wall. Ring gates would work, though, if you take the time to get one safely to the Moon first.

Hmm... There's an idea. What if you're on the Moon with one of your pair of Ring Gates, and cast Wall of Force through the gate? They explicitly allow line of effect.

No, wait, it looks like Ring Gates have a 100 mile limit, and the Moon is probably further away than that... Back to the drawing board.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-07, 05:44 PM
There's also the problem that Teleport doesn't change your speed, so if you teleport to the Moon, then you'll have the same problems that you plan for the victims of your speedy wall. Ring gates would work, though, if you take the time to get one safely to the Moon first.

Hmm... There's an idea. What if you're on the Moon with one of your pair of Ring Gates, and cast Wall of Force through the gate? They explicitly allow line of effect.

No, wait, it looks like Ring Gates have a 100 mile limit, and the Moon is probably further away than that... Back to the drawing board.

Actually whether or not Teleport changes your speed is unknown. If it doesn't then some weird **** can happen.

olelia
2008-06-07, 05:46 PM
So just set up A LOT of ring gates between the earth and the moon...ya...that would work :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-06-07, 05:49 PM
Actually whether or not Teleport changes your speed is unknown. If it doesn't then some weird **** can happen.

Like how teleporting from one side of the planet to the other would send you flying sideways at roughly 2000 miles per hour (assuming a similar rotation speed as the earth).

Recaiden
2008-06-07, 06:12 PM
So just set up A LOT of ring gates between the earth and the moon...ya...that would work :smallbiggrin:

We only need about 5,000 sets.

Collin152
2008-06-07, 06:24 PM
If that works, (hard to say, the SRD is a bit unclear about teleporting immovable rods) the world still gets to make a DC30 strength check against it. Which it makes. On a botch.


Does the Earth have a Strength score?

Sir_Elderberry
2008-06-07, 06:35 PM
I dunno, it's been grappling me for as long as I can remember.

sikyon
2008-06-07, 06:37 PM
Does the Earth have a Strength score?

Doesn't matter, immovable rod only supports up to 8000 pounds before collapsing.

Interestingly enough, this means that str ~36 is enough to lift/drag 8000 pounds. An average roll of 10 indicates that a DC 28 str check is enough to make the rod collapse.

Collin152
2008-06-07, 07:04 PM
Doesn't matter, immovable rod only supports up to 8000 pounds before collapsing.


That's not very immovable.
Just Shrink the Earth a few times, then.

monty
2008-06-07, 07:36 PM
Doesn't matter, immovable rod only supports up to 8000 pounds before collapsing.

Interestingly enough, this means that str ~36 is enough to lift/drag 8000 pounds. An average roll of 10 indicates that a DC 28 str check is enough to make the rod collapse.

46 Str, to make a DC 28 on a 10 (you forgot to subtract 10 first). That makes sense, though, because 46 strength is pretty high.

Matar
2008-06-07, 08:40 PM
Sheer curiousity >_>.

That Black-Hole thing seems cool. How long would it take for, say, 100 continers to reach the mass needed to become a Black Hole?

And, let's say it was created on an infinte plane, where there is infinte mass all around, what would happen?

And, are there any, well, *cooler* ways to make a Black-Hole like that? >_>.

Enlong
2008-06-07, 11:38 PM
That's not very immovable.
Just Shrink the Earth a few times, then.

Well, "Rod of Fixed Location" isn't nearly as cool-sounding,

Chronos
2008-06-08, 12:31 AM
That Black-Hole thing seems cool. How long would it take for, say, 100 continers to reach the mass needed to become a Black Hole?Too long. As in, many orders of magnitude longer than the lifetime of the Universe (our Universe, that is: D&D universes tend to be much younger).

Patashu
2008-06-08, 12:45 AM
The 'commoner railgun' reminds me of ship chains in civilization 2, where you could line up a whole bunch of transport ships within movement distance of each other, board a unit onto the first one, bring them onto the next one which brings them onto the next one, etc...allowing you to move land units an arbitary distance in one turn. Same idea being abused, arbitary number of actions instead of being parallel like is intended by the system being utilized in an explicit series.

EDIT: Btw, if frames of reference and different parts of the world exerting forces in different directions on you is actually a problem, just rule that the earth is flat and the cosmos is geocentric. Done :P
If you try to shoehorn D&D physics and rules and abilities straight into all the laws of physics and the universe as we know it then of course there will be inconsistencies and absurdities. Gotta pick a system and stick with it.

Patashu
2008-06-08, 12:49 AM
Does that actually work? I didn't think 'nothing' had any buoyancy.

An object pushing down will displace its mass in the medium it is apon such that the force of the medium pushed away and trying to push back in is equal to the force of gravity pushing the object down.

If you have an object that weighs nothing (but can interact with matter) it will be infinitely buoyant, I believe, since no gravity is exerted apon it and thus all the matter around it will rush into the place it is in its race to be closer to the planet's gravity, pushing it up.

Patashu
2008-06-08, 01:09 AM
Sheer curiousity >_>.

That Black-Hole thing seems cool. How long would it take for, say, 100 continers to reach the mass needed to become a Black Hole?
Depends how small you can make it. The mass required to make a black hole scales with the radius it's packed into. (Basically, it counts as a black hole where no possible amount of force could oppose the net effect of gravity.)
If you can get it to a 9mm radius sphere you only need an Earth mass, for example. The Earth's mass is 5.973610^24 kg. Decanters of endless water produce 30 gallons of water per 6 seconds at maximum which equals 113.562354 litres of water which we'll approximate as 113.6kg/6sec or 1136kg/min. That means for your 9mm container it'll take 10,004,662,679,271,978 (10 quadrillion) years divided by the number of decanters utilized to produce a black hole. For a larger or smaller container multiply by the factor of radius from 9mm.


And, let's say it was created on an infinte plane, where there is infinte mass all around, what would happen?
Hmm.
I thought on it a bit and I don't think you can describe what would happen with real life laws of physics, which precludes such absurdities as having infinite mass everywhere on an infinite plane.

Matar
2008-06-08, 05:15 AM
Don't ask me what I am talking about, for I do not know.


Even assuming that the Decanter isn't destroyed or deactivated first, it'll take a lot of waiting. A black hole the mass of the Earth would have a Schwartzschild radius of order a centimeter. So if your box of force is about 20 cm on a side (just barely big enough to hold a Decanter, I'd reckon), you'd need to cram ten times the mass of the Earth into it. Of course, you could get all sorts of other interesting effects long before you reached that point.

So, er. If that's the size of the box, and you put in about 100 of them into a box that can barely fit 'em, how long would it take? >_>.

Also, what if we did that "Gate Ring at the bottom of the Ocean" Trick? Put the ring in the box, and stuff >_>


Hmm.
I thought on it a bit and I don't think you can describe what would happen with real life laws of physics, which precludes such absurdities as having infinite mass everywhere on an infinite plane.

In theory? There's infinite room filled with infinte stuff. Say, the Plane of Water?

Im just wondering if it would get infinitly big, or if they have a limit or something.

Heliomance
2008-06-08, 07:08 AM
Regarding the wall of force from the moon, house-rule in 3.0 scrying and make the check to cast through the scrying interface.

Cheesegear
2008-06-08, 09:32 AM
I DM'd a game where a wizard with Fire Resistance started casting multiple Fireballs in an underground room thinking he was invincible. I told him to start making CON checks as there wasn't any oxygen left.

Chronos
2008-06-08, 01:30 PM
Quoth Patashu:
The 'commoner railgun' reminds me of ship chains in civilization 2, where you could line up a whole bunch of transport ships within movement distance of each other, board a unit onto the first one, bring them onto the next one which brings them onto the next one, etc...allowing you to move land units an arbitary distance in one turn.It works in Civ3, too, but the starting (and preferably ending) point has to be a city, or your units waste their move embarking/disembarking.


If you have an object that weighs nothing (but can interact with matter) it will be infinitely buoyant, I believe, since no gravity is exerted apon it and thus all the matter around it will rush into the place it is in its race to be closer to the planet's gravity, pushing it up.The buoyant force on any object depends only on the density of the fluid it's in and its volume (or the volume of the portion of it that's in the fluid). The object's weight itself doesn't have any effect.

Quoth matar:
Also, what if we did that "Gate Ring at the bottom of the Ocean" Trick? Put the ring in the box, and stuff >_>The water inside the box would quickly reach the same pressure as the bottom of the ocean, after which the flow would stop. This would no more form a black hole than does the water which is already at the bottom of the ocean.

And I reckon that the elemental planes would have to have an anti-deSitter steady-state geometry. That would allow them to be infinite and filled with a constant and uniform density of material, while still allowing for material to be transfered from the elemental planes to the material, as seems to happen frequently. I don't know the details of how a black hole would interact with an anti-deSitter space, though.

sikyon
2008-06-08, 02:07 PM
46 Str, to make a DC 28 on a 10 (you forgot to subtract 10 first). That makes sense, though, because 46 strength is pretty high.

Actually str 36 is 8000 pounds max force by encumbrance tables, which I guess is a +13 modifier to str and taking 10 gives you a DC 23 str check to make the rod collapse. So you can never really push a rod, because to exert that much force it'd be over 8000 pounds anyways so the rod would collapse first.

Flickerdart
2008-06-08, 02:57 PM
Speaking of which. If you stick a black hole in a Bag of Holding, does the hole also affect the outside? Seems like an awesome weapon: suck up enemies with your trusty bag.

thPlonk
2008-06-08, 04:15 PM
Regarding the "Commoner Railgun" I don't think anyone has taken a close enough look at the actual mechanic of passing an object as a free action:

1. The object is at rest in A's possession.
2. The object accelerates to a high velocity.
3. The object covers the distance from A to B.
4. The object decelerates from a high velocity.
5. The object is at rest in B's possession.

This entire process occurs as a free action over a negligible amount of time. Only THEN can B transfer the object to C. Since the process involves acceleration AND deceleration, the railgun idea is only useful for rapid transport.

This is assuming that passing objects as a free action is not a universal spell-like ability which teleports objects via some sort of quantum leap from A state to B state.

Notice that with a very well timed use of Time Stop, a magician might be able to act DURING the free action at point 3, teleporting (or [evil] disintigrating) B away. The object would then continue at high velocity. A two-commoner railgun!

Khanderas
2008-06-09, 02:15 AM
Whereupon it drops harmlessly to his feet. The commoner railgun might work for transmitting messages long distances, or something like that, but it sucks as a weapon. Either you're using the D&D rules, in which case it does damage based on the last guy in line throwing it (with no bonuses from all the other commoners passing it), or you're using more realistic houserules which would say that a rock moving over 1000 feet/second is going to do some serious damage, but under such realistic houserules, the railgun wouldn't work in the first place.
It would also do serious damage to atleast some of the commoners in that line. I mean, "here take this rock travelling at 2 times the speed of sound and pass it to the next guy" is bound to present some hurt.

... consider housecats ability to slay commoners... there will alot of dead commoners... for SCIENCE !

DigoDragon
2008-06-09, 07:33 AM
So then I thought about calling up some of my Necromancer friends to reanimate the 9000 or so dead catgirls from this thread. Line up all the now undead catgirls in one row and have the one catgirl at one end grab someone living and pass him/her over to the next catgirl in line... and the next... and the next...

Kinda like the commoner railgun idea, except it's a person who's being "bodysurfed" down 45,000 feet in about 6 seconds (one round). That's like what? over 5000 miles per hour? Pretty sure air resistance would friction-burn the victim to a lump of charcoal. :smalltongue:

Very silly, I know, but kinda funny to think about. Revenge of the catgirls or something. 'Course now what am I going to do with an army of 9000 undead catgirls?
Hmmm...