SamTheCleric's Look at the 4e Books

[SamTheCleric]

I'm going to try and provide as much of an unbiased opinion as I can during this review. I want to preface the review by saying that I do enjoy the system and have had a great time with it. You can stop reading right there if you are here to troll or flame me. :smallsmile:

The Player's Handbook

This hefty book weighs in at just over 300 pages. The cover art and font make it appealing to those who 'judge a book by its cover' (though you shouldn't do that.)

The first chapter goes into detail as to what a role playing game is, gives an example of a game session and gives a basic overview of the book itself. I found this chapter a little boring, but that's because I've been playing D&D for 16 years now and its the same first chapter that's in every RPG book ever published. I did like that they gave examples of each die type and a picture of them... I don't know how many times I've had to explain the dice to new players. Overall, if you're new to D&D you should read this chapter. If not, you can skip it.

The second chapter begins the meat of the book: character creation. The first thing I noticed about this chapter is that the point buy is a little... off. It will take some getting used to (I still haven't memorized the 3e point buy)... but I'm sure that with some practice it will make some sense to me. The major point in this chapter is that the book explains that you are intended to be the good guys and that you start out as heroes. You are not commoners, not merchants... you're a hero. The descriptions of the various gods have been cut down to a paragraph each with 3 "commandments" for each of the good and unaligned gods. The evil gods each get a sentence describing their area of influence. The new alignment system is also detailed in this chapter, though alignment has very little mechanical impact on the game. Much like your choice in deity, alignment is mostly for your roleplaying.

Next up is the Races chapter. Each of the eight races gets three pages devoted to them. The races are Dragonborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Half-elf, Halfling, Human and Tiefling. It seems as though the standard "race creation" is to grant +2 to two stats, a +2 to two skills and an encounter power. Beyond that, each race gets a minor benefit or boost. The only race to break the mold is, of course, Human. They add +2 to the attribute of their choice, an extra trained skill and get an extra at-will power to choose from. I forsee humans retaining their positions as "most common race" by far. I like that only the first page of each race is really the mechanics of the race and the next two pages describe the typical race, give examples of classes the race would be good at and give a minor description of that races' society.

The next chapter is by FAR the largest chapter in the book: The classes. Each class has its powers and paragon paths directly following it, and each class has over 70 powers, 4 paragon paths (well, warlocks have 3) and then the epic destinies of which there are only 4. I'm not going to go into detail about each class and power, but I will say that I love the Paragon Paths... especially since you continue advancing your base class powers through level swaps and retraining, you just get to add the paragon on top of it. Each Paragon path grants you a class ability related to spending action points as well as various other abilities gained at 11 and 16. They also gain an additional Utility, Encounter and Daily power. My favorite Paragon Paths are the Cleric's Angelic Avenger and the Fighter's Kensei. I'm slightly disappointed that there are only 4 epic destinies at launch, but I figure that you don't really NEED more than that at launch. WotC is assuming that most campagins will start at level 1 and they have plenty of time to get more epic destinies created before the majority of the player base hit level 21.

Skills Chapter is up next. The new skill system is the same one used in Star Wars Saga Edition. Being trained in a skill grants you +5 to that skill and you get half of your level (rounded down) to all skills. Being trained in certain skills allow you to do extra things (like being trained in acrobatics lets you reduce falling damage... which is now 1d10 per 10 feet). I wish they had more "trained only" uses for the skills, honestly... but I do like how the skill system works... everyone retains some sort of general knowledge in all areas that they pick up as they go along... but they aren't nearly as good as someone who is focused (trained) in said skill. Even with your +15 from levels, you'd be hard pressed to hit that DC 40 epic thievery check without some kind of assistance.

The Feats chapter. There are around 80 heroic tier feats, 50 paragon and 20 epic. All of the feats provide some small situational benefit either in or out of combat, and some require you to be trained in a certain skill. There is also a feat or two for each race that adds to a racial ability or encounter power. I found it difficult to pick any one feat for a character because they all seemed so useful in various ways. ((Rant: These are not 3rd edition feats by any stretch of the imagination, their power level is much lower)) The jewels of the feat chapter are the beautiful multiclass feats that essentially double your character's choice in powers and the Channel Divinity feats that clerics and paladins can choose from based on their god. My favorite channel divinity feat lets you target an enemy with an ongoing effect that you just rolled a 20 on a save against. I found that a neat mechanic.

The Equipment chapter is where my heart sinks. This part is woefully small. I know that the first splatbook coming out is a 200+ page equipment handbook, but that's no excuse for the piss poor job they did on giving us barely one table on adventuring gear. I also want the stats and price on those kobold glue pots! This chapter was the biggest let down in the entire book. Though I'm happy that there's now a unit of currency that is bigger than the platinum piece... Enter the astral diamond!

Magic Items are are plentiful and span the gamut of usefulness. With the cap on daily item powers and the lack of stat bump items, your choice in items will be more of a challenge. I do like that there is a much smaller reliance on said magic items and that you can probably get by just fine without them, but why would you? I did not spend too much time reading the details of all the items because I'm not yet too worried about it... when I start playing or running adventures outside of the pregens... that's when It'll matter.

The second to last chapter details the mechanics of combat and status effects, terrain, movement... the standard "here's everything that isn't character creation chapter". Everything here is beautifully laid out in nice colored tables and clearly written. There is very little confusing wording. Grapple has been replaced by the simple Grab (reflex vs AC, if hit, target is immobilized). The save mechanic for death is now potentially much deadlier, being that you could fail your first 3 saves and now be dead. Again, i did not spend too much time here as I was more interested in the "new shiny". I skimmed the status effects and movement rules just to get used to them

Closing out the book is the chapter on Rituals. I adore the ritual chapter. I think the mechanic is one of the best additions to D&D that fourth edition has made. By taking a feat and bumping your skills, anyone can potentially be a ritual caster... but the Wizard and Cleric are the ones that get the feat for free. There are rituals from anything from animal messenger up to greater teleportation gates. I imagine the list of rituals is going to exponentially increase with every book released and that we are going to see some very interesting things come out of this mechanic.

The Monster's Manual

This book shocked me. It wastes no time and jumps into the monsters starting on like the 3rd page. It starts with a "how to read a stat block" and then just throws the monsters at you like some cheap 1950s horror movie. The lack of descriptions for the monsters is kinda odd and the lore tables are mostly a joke... but the monsters themselves are fantastic. Each monster has several entries fulfilling different roles and different levels... no more just picking out the kobold and adding a level of ranger to him to make him an archer... there's already an "artillery" version in the entry. At the end of the book are quite a few "Monsters as Playable Races" which all seem quite balanced and the thought of ECL/Level Adjustment is gone.

The Dungeon Master's Guide

Yeah, this reads like stereo instructions. This is SOLELY a book on making campaigns and running games. The entire book is tips and tricks for DMs, how to make skill challenges, how to make traps, how to upgrade monsters with functional or class templates or by level, how to make a town, how to turn your game into a campaign... etc. I found the "play without a dm" kind of interesting... you make characters and use their "random dungeon creation" rules to make a diablo style game in a pinch... for use when your DM isn't available.

--

Overall: My personal opinion is that the system is fantastic and will survive quite well in the market at hand. As JaxGaret has been saying, you -really- need to play the game before passing judgement on it. It plays much better than it reads, because, honestly, it reads like an instruction manual... everything is a rule or mechanic for the game. After playing in 2 games and running 3... I've come to adore the system and have found that it does not change the game outside of combat. The combat is streamlined down to a nearly perfected science, but all of the out of combat roleplay exists and is fun for everyone.

Thank you for your time and have a good day.

[TwystidMynd]

The first thing I noticed about this chapter is that the point buy is a little... off. It will take some getting used to (I still haven't memorized the 3e point buy)... but I'm sure that with some practice it will make some sense to me.
I was also weirded out, too, about the new point buy. I noticed that you get fewer points to distribute, which struck me as odd.... Then I realized, though, that might be the result of having a +4 modifier for every race, instead of a +0 modifier for most races.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm not sure exactly what you got put off by, but I know that I was also put off. I noticed that you get fewer points to distribute, which struck me as odd, but then I realized that might be the result of having a +4 modifier for every race, instead of a +0 modifier for most races.

Well its 10 10 10 10 10 8 and you get 22 points... so technically it's just a 32 point buy and they spent 10 of your points for you... that was my first sore spot. The next is that the cost doesnt seem to have a formula to it... or not one that I immediately saw.

[Scintillatus]

Yeah, the difference between 14 in 3e and 4e WEIRDED me out. It ruined my first few character builds because I was still running off normal 32 point buy.

[Myshlaevsky]

I actually like the new point buy, and thank god that it's the default, rather than dice rolling. The only difference is it's more expensive, and they make you pay more for modifiers - +1 costs 2, +2 costs 3 more than the previous one, +3 costs 4 more than the previous one, +4 costs 5 more than the previous one.

[SamTheCleric]

Sorry I didnt give as big a review for the other two books... I spent most of my time with PHB.

If you're just planning on playing... you really don't need the DMG or MM at all.

[stupnick]

Well. My opinion on 4e, is rather twisted.

For almost the last 10 years i have played 1st edition. I wouldn't touch 3rd or 3.5 because of the problems and powergaming issues. Reluctantly in the last 2 years because i couldn't find another single person interested in 1st edition, i have changed over to 3.5. Yes, the system is ok, but it screams power gaming and min maxing.

I have dreaded 4th edition since they stated they were going to be swapping. Reading reviews and tidbits released, and seeing a few how to's online, my dread grew. I severly was dreading when I would need to find a new game to play or find a new group to play with because everyone was happy about it because more opportunities.

Then my friend got the books a week and a half early, and I had a chance to skim through them and read them. WOW i was suprised. I actually liked the system reading it, it seemed streamlined and simplified. I have played in 2 games and am running 1 atm as well.

The game is the best edition of DnD they have put out yet. It makes the game more user friendly and allows new people to join and understand from the beginning, while still allowing older more established players the opportunity to still play the same characters they love with a little twist.

[Starsinger]

I can't believe you mentioned the point buy without mentioning the list of pre-spent point buys that followed, perfect for people who play point buy but aren't good with the number crunching for it (like this one for example).

[SamTheCleric]

I can't believe you mentioned the point buy without mentioning the list of pre-spent point buys that followed, perfect for people who play point buy but aren't good with the number crunching for it (like this one for example).

Yes, that table full of pre-spent points is where I spend all my time. :smallbiggrin:

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I'd just like to note I appreciate the review. I've been dreading the new edition, being the old gaming fart I am who hates the changes to his beloved old system, no matter how crummy it was. It's easy to stay wrapped up in my protective blanket of fear, but an honest review like this gets me a little more interested in what's to come.

[Indon]

I found it odd that the player's guide had so much flavor text, and then you turn around and the monster manual is crunchier than a handful of fried nuts. If this is how future splatbooks will roll, then I am... interested. Ambivalently so, but interested.

I can't say I'm a fan of only being able to have one below-average stat (which literally can not be below average after a certain point). But I understand that it's a part of the lets-take-freedom-from-the-players-so-they-cant-break-the-game paradigm.


If you're just planning on playing... you really don't need the DMG or MM at all.

You would need the MM to have things to fight, though (or the DMG to build them from scratch). You might as well not bother with the PHB if you don't have either the MM or the DMG ('cause you aren't going to have anything to use your powers on :P).

I liked how the DMG included the mob creation rules.

[SamTheCleric]

You would need the MM to have things to fight, though (or the DMG to build them from scratch). You might as well not bother with the PHB if you don't have either the MM or the DMG ('cause you aren't going to have anything to use your powers on :P).


Well, I meant you don't need them as a player. As long as the DM has them, you should be good to go. :smallbiggrin:

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

One thing I'd like to know ...

Back in 1e and 2e, the DMG offered the creative DM tools and advice on constructing and designing his own campaign world. It seemed to me that 3e did not facilitate this as much, and in some aspects it even seemed to me a tacit discourgement from designing one's own world (just personal observation). Does the 4e DMG seem ready to give the DM the reins of his own world?

[SamTheCleric]

One thing I'd like to know ...

Back in 1e and 2e, the DMG offered the creative DM tools and advice on constructing and designing his own campaign world. It seemed to me that 3e did not facilitate this as much, and in some aspects it even seemed to me a tacit discourgement from designing one's own world (just personal observation). Does the 4e DMG seem ready to give the DM the reins of his own world?

I haven't read the entire book as of yet... but there are chapters dedicated to turning your game into a campaign and how to design your own cities and towns... as well as NPC creation.

I don't think there's anything specifically for WORLD creation... but that may be because they want to sell their setting books. :smalltongue:

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I haven't read the entire book as of yet... but there are chapters dedicated to turning your game into a campaign and how to design your own cities and towns... as well as NPC creation.

I don't think there's anything specifically for WORLD creation... but that may be because they want to sell their setting books. :smalltongue:

Ah. That's something I've missed in WotC D&D. There were published worlds before, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and (one of my favorites) Dark Sun, but the game never shied from giving a DM tools to design and bring his own setting to life. 3e was very shy on any material such as that.

[ghost_warlock]

Ah. That's something I've missed in WotC D&D. There were published worlds before, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and (one of my favorites) Dark Sun, but the game never shied from giving a DM tools to design and bring his own setting to life. 3e was very shy on any material such as that.

I'm not sure what, exactly, you're looking for... Both the DMG and the DMG II had sections devoted to homebrew campaigns - city-building, economics, information about medeival society. Cityscape, Dungeonscape, and the environment (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) books included detailed information for those...environments. The Monster Manuals had numerous creatures to populate these settings. Unearthed Arcana included all sorts of rules variants you could use to shake up the feel of your homebrew universe. The Manual of the Planes mostly detailed the Great Wheel, but I think it also contained some ideas about setting up your own cosmology. What else do you want?

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I'm not sure what, exactly, you're looking for... Both the DMG and the DMG II had sections devoted to homebrew campaigns - city-building, economics, information about medeival society. Cityscape, Dungeonscape, and the environment (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) books included detailed information for those...environments. The Monster Manuals had numerous creatures to populate these settings. Unearthed Arcana included all sorts of rules variants you could use to shake up the feel of your homebrew universe. The Manual of the Planes mostly detailed the Great Wheel, but I think it also contained some ideas about setting up your own cosmology. What else do you want?

Of the above books, I own or have owned: the DMG, the Monster Manual, and the Manual of the Planes. What I want is to be able to open the DMG and feel encouraged to step out and make my own setting.

[SamTheCleric]

Oh, I left something out about the DMG...

The DMG does offer more evil dieties beyond what are presented in the PHB and goes on to say that if you wanted to reflavor the cleric/paladin spells to be necrotic damage and instead of "blinded by radiance" you're "blinded by growing shadows"... you can quite easily without impacting the game at all. The evil gods also get the commandment treatment that the good/unaligned ones get from the PHB... but still, very little impact on the mechanics of the game, only on the character and how they play out.

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun than you'd think.

[Indon]

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun that you'd think.

Oh, I don't doubt that I could run an awesome game in 4'th edition - because I have years of experience playing and DM'ing tabletop RPG's.

But I could do a much better game in Exalted, or even 3.x D&D, unless and until I hack, hammer, and rebuild 4'th edition into a game system that could support what I can do as a DM.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, I left something out about the DMG...

I believe that experienced DMs or GMs will not need to buy the DMG, because nearly all of it is advise rather than crunch. I think that's a good thing, actually.

[InaVegt]

Of the above books, I own or have owned: the DMG, the Monster Manual, and the Manual of the Planes. What I want is to be able to open the DMG and feel encouraged to step out and make my own setting.

Chapter 9: The world.

I starts out with the core assumptions, the page after, it suggests changing those to create an unique world. They even give suggestions on how you might do it.

Then town system, with suggestions and encouragement on changing it following right after.

The wild, not much for changing, but I think it'd work similar most places.

The cosmology, not much for changing either, but it's fluff only.

The gods, this is just meant to extend upon the Evil gods.

The mechanics which might or might not have an impact on your game start flowing.

So, basically. As long as you don't mind generic wild and cosmology, fiddle as you wish. WotC likes you to.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I believe that experienced DMs or GMs will not need to buy the DMG, because nearly all of it is advise rather than crunch. I think that's a good thing, actually.

Nope, you still need it. For example, the treasure parcels, or the improvise rules, or the DC's.

[stupnick]

Nope, you still need it. For example, the treasure parcels, or the improvise rules, or the DC's.

all that stuff is advised items. Most good DM's can come up with that stuff on there own on the fly. Rewarding treasure, coming up with DC's... it's rather easy to do, and you would need to adjust those items that are listed in the DMG anyways based on your group, and there optimization ability.

if the DMG says 25, but your group could only hit a 25 on a roll of 19 or 20, you would need to adjust that down to at least give them a 16-20 or 15-20

[Azerian Kelimon]

all that stuff is advised items. Most good DM's can come up with that stuff on there own on the fly. Rewarding treasure, coming up with DC's... it's rather easy to do, and you would need to adjust those items that are listed in the DMG anyways based on your group, and there optimization ability.

if the DMG says 25, but your group could only hit a 25 on a roll of 19 or 20, you would need to adjust that down to at least give them a 16-20 or 15-20

Trust me, it's not that easy. Page 42, for example, is a godsend.

Not to mention things like the XP awarded by quests, how to run skill challenges, how to apply class templates, etc.

[Tengu]

The rules for giving out experience are also in the DMG. Of course, they are not necessary either - since you don't lose experience when crafting or getting killed and raised now, nothing stops the DM from simply making players level up when he feels like it.

What I love about 4e DMG is that there is no longer anything that might interest players here. Well, apart from one thing - since it states that merchants usually sell magic items 10-40% higher than their price, it is efficient from an economical standpoint to use item enchanting/potion brewing rituals.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Honestly: TRY the game. It turns out its a lot more fun that you'd think.

Well, I tried oysters a while back and learned I loved them, so there's no reason for me not to try this new edition. I mean to play the game, not to ingest it, mind you. I may voice concerns, express doubts, and wax nostalgic; but concerns cannot be relieved, doubts cannot be assuaged, and the "good ole days" cannot be put to rest if I don't actually try the new system out.

Dare I say it? I may even be open to the possibility that I could enjoy this more than my old game.

[SamTheCleric]

Dare I say it? I may even be open to the possibility that I could enjoy this more than my old game.

Hey, if I've even influenced just one opinion... I've done good. :smallbiggrin:

[ghost_warlock]

Hey, if I've even influenced just one opinion... I've done good. :smallbiggrin:

You've influenced a lot of opinions, Sam. Or, at least, I think so. In any case, you've offered a lot of straightforward details and reviews of the new material, which is very much appreciated! :smallsmile:

It's just too bad that honestly educating some of us about the system may have had the opposite effect you may have wanted. I honestly haven't liked a lot of what I've heard and the more I hear about it the less I tend to like...so to speak. :smalltongue: Maybe you're not trying to win people over to 4e, but it may be in your advantage to do so (more 4e players = more people to potentially play 4e with). Still, offering honest reviews at face value rather than skewing the reality in order to win people over reflects very well on your credibility and respectability.

4e could be a fantastic system, but it simply isn't a fantastic system for the types of games some of us want to play. You realize, and respect, that 4e simply isn't for everyone.

In the slew of 4e-related NEEEEEERRD RAAAAAAGE!!! threads I've read, you're one of the few pro-4e posters who hasn't managed to piss me off by insulting my intelligence, or my playstyle, by oversimplification or outright misrepresentation of my position. I sincerely thank you for your honesty and fair-mindedness.

[SamTheCleric]

Wow. Thanks!

I don't really want to badger people into one system or the other. I like 3rd edition a lot, as well... and am not just gonna drop everything to jump to fourth... I've got two campaigns to finish up!

If nothing else, I just hope people give 4e a chance. :smallsmile:

[Starsinger]

If nothing else, I just hope people give 4e a chance. :smallsmile:

It would solve a lot of problems if all of the naysayers did that.

[Occasional Sage]

*snip*
The first chapter goes into detail as to what a role playing game is, gives an example of a game session and gives a basic overview of the book itself. I found this chapter a little boring, but that's because I've been playing D&D for 16 years now and its the same first chapter that's in every RPG book ever published. I did like that they gave examples of each die type and a picture of them... I don't know how many times I've had to explain the dice to new players. Overall, if you're new to D&D you should read this chapter. If not, you can skip it.
*snip*


Y'know, after 25 years playing various RPGs (and yes, AD&D was my first) I have come more and more to find this chapter to be the best one in a new RPG. It isn't useful in-and-of itself, but it lets me see what the designers core assumptions are, which tell me at a glance how the game is designed to play; if their approach to their game is interesting, then the fiddly bits get a reading too. But the best mechanic in the world will fail for me if the game is designed from a place I don't like.



Overall: My personal opinion is that the system is fantastic and will survive quite well in the market at hand. As JaxGaret has been saying, you -really- need to play the game before passing judgement on it. It plays much better than it reads, because, honestly, it reads like an instruction manual... everything is a rule or mechanic for the game. After playing in 2 games and running 3... I've come to adore the system and have found that it does not change the game outside of combat. The combat is streamlined down to a nearly perfected science, but all of the out of combat roleplay exists and is fun for everyone.

Thank you for your time and have a good day.

Your synopsis makes the game sound pretty darn good; I'm really curious to see how the system plays, or at least how it tinkers. Thanks for taking the time to do this!

[SamTheCleric]

Thanks for taking the time to do this!

Happy to do it. I'd like to add to it after some more in depth reading... but finding time for that is kinda hard. :smallbiggrin:

[Edea]

Agreeing with pretty much the entire OP. Also, don't knock 4E until you've played it for a bit.

[JaxGaret]

I actually like the new point buy, and thank god that it's the default, rather than dice rolling. The only difference is it's more expensive, and they make you pay more for modifiers - +1 costs 2, +2 costs 3 more than the previous one, +3 costs 4 more than the previous one, +4 costs 5 more than the previous one.

Your calculations here are wrong.

The only two changes are that it takes 2 points to go from 13 to 14, instead of from 14 to 15, and it costs one extra point (4 instead of 3) to go from 17 to 18.

That's it.

[JaxGaret]

It's just too bad that honestly educating some of us about the system may have had the opposite effect you may have wanted. I honestly haven't liked a lot of what I've heard and the more I hear about it the less I tend to like...so to speak. :smalltongue:

I completely understand that you feel that way. In fact, that's how I felt before I actually tried it. It sounded bad, and reading the books didn't alleviate that feeling.

Then I tried it. And I went back and read some more, and tried it again. And it was really, really fun.


4e could be a fantastic system, but it simply isn't a fantastic system for the types of games some of us want to play. You realize, and respect, that 4e simply isn't for everyone.

Of course. Just try it before you make a final judgment.


In the slew of 4e-related NEEEEEERRD RAAAAAAGE!!! threads I've read, you're one of the few pro-4e posters who hasn't managed to piss me off by insulting my intelligence, or my playstyle, by oversimplification or outright misrepresentation of my position. I sincerely thank you for your honesty and fair-mindedness.

I agree. There is way too much entrenchment on both sides of the aisle.

[NephandiMan]

I missed the DMG section on running without a DM - good on you for pointing that out. The more I examine the new books, the more I think I might enjoy playing 4e, lack of versatility and all. My reaction to it has been mostly guarded; however, I'm more than willing to try it and see. From what people who've played it have said, it sounds like it could be a case of green eggs and ham.

In any case, this review was quite good, Sam I Am The Cleric.

[Lochar]

Posting because SamTheCleric threatened me to. :tongue:

I'm still waiting to see the SRD, because I'm too cheap to buy the books.

My only concern is if the item section of the PHB was so small, the SRD's will be as well. Which doesn't bode well for those of us that play with just that.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'm going to try 4E in July, and I must say I'm getting steadily more excited. Sam, you've pointed out a lot of things that sound pretty cool. Now, we've just got to finish up Red Hand of Doom (awesome module, by the way), and then I'll sink my teeth into this newfangled edition.

[JaxGaret]

From what people who've played it have said, it sounds like it could be a case of green eggs and ham.

Heh. Indeed. I'm thinking of adding something like that to my sig.

4e: the Green Eggs and Ham of the RPG world.

[Helgraf]

I found it odd that the player's guide had so much flavor text, and then you turn around and the monster manual is crunchier than a handful of fried nuts. If this is how future splatbooks will roll, then I am... interested. Ambivalently so, but interested.

I can't say I'm a fan of only being able to have one below-average stat (which literally can not be below average after a certain point). But I understand that it's a part of the lets-take-freedom-from-the-players-so-they-cant-break-the-game paradigm.



You would need the MM to have things to fight, though (or the DMG to build them from scratch). You might as well not bother with the PHB if you don't have either the MM or the DMG ('cause you aren't going to have anything to use your powers on :P).

I liked how the DMG included the mob creation rules.

Ya know, if you really want to have subpar stats, I seriously doubt your DM would forbid you from, say, arbitrarily lowering that 8 to a 6 or 5.

[NephandiMan]

Heh. Indeed. I'm thinking of adding something like that to my sig.

4e: the Green Eggs and Ham of the RPG world.

Dr. Seuss and Friedrich Nietzsche. I think the two would go well together.

[SamTheCleric]

Dr. Seuss and Friedrich Nietzsche. I think the two would go well together.

What an odd thought.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)and have found that it does not change the game outside of combat. The combat is streamlined down to a nearly perfected science, but all of the out of combat roleplay exists and is fun for everyone.(...)

I guess that's good enough for me. That's exactly what I was expecting with the changes. Fighting characters able to actually fight, and the utilitarians still be able to be utilitarians out of combat.

[SamTheCleric]

Everyone cross your fingers for me. My game store is holding a drawing to win various store credit amounts, dice... and the mother load: Every 4e supplement to be released in 2008 (like 3-4 books). I'll let you know how that goes after the drawing on Saturday. :smallbiggrin:

[Izar Goldbranch]

Everyone cross your fingers for me. My game store is holding a drawing to win various store credit amounts, dice... and the mother load: Every 4e supplement to be released in 2008 (like 3-4 books). I'll let you know how that goes after the drawing on Saturday. :smallbiggrin:


Hey now, Im in that drawing too..in the best case scenario, one of us will win the supplement package and the other will win the OMG HUGE DM SCREEN thing. :)

I'm one of the players that's been helping SamtheCleric test 4e and I'm giddy. Most of his misgivings match mine, but the bottom line is that once I actually sat down to play it, the system really worked.

After a clunky first run through to get used to the rules, the dynamics of the combat really pick up. The streamlining of the rules allow for MORE creativity, in my opinion...because it gives you simple rules to adjudicate stuff that might have been a headache in previous editions.

I guess it comes down to how you view the fact that the game is simpler and streamlined. From my experiences so far, the new rules put the emphasis on teamwork and tactics over individual combinations, which I love.

It's really good stuff. And I liked that the paladin FEELS like a paladin again.

Good review, Sam. You're on the money.

And in closing...

....mmmm...Green Eggs and Ham.

[SamTheCleric]

Hey now, Im in that drawing too..in the best case scenario, one of us will win the supplement package and the other will win the OMG HUGE DM SCREEN thing. :)


The lootz! They is mine!

:smalltongue:

[PnP Fan]

I echo other's sentiment that your's is the first fair and only slightly biased review I've seen.

Read through all 20 pages of the 4ed early delivery thread. Lots of objective information there too, but only about 5-6 pages of info before it devolved into the usual debates between rules crunch/rules light folks and the 3.x grognards vs. the psychotic 4ed fans.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow, myself, though I can understand and sympathize with the folks who don't want to change. I'm going to try it out with a select group of folks before I give my review to the rest of my gaming groups. That ought to give them all a few months of wondering and perhasp pique interest, and make them more willing to switch in the future. I'm also hoping that a few more months of playing Saga edition will help them develop interest.

[SamTheCleric]

Yeah, its only slightly biased... kinda hard to do a review without any bias.

And if your group enjoys Saga edition... I think they will enjoy 4e, its got a lot of the same elements to it.

[robotrobot2]

I think that the skill system isn't going to be as good as 3.5e, but every thing else looks good. It looks pretty easy to just swap in and out parts of 3.5e and 4e that you like to get the best possible game.

[JaxGaret]

I think that the skill system isn't going to be as good as 3.5e, but every thing else looks good.

I'm curious: what don't you like about the skill system in 3.5?

It seems like the same exact skill system to me, just cleaned up a little to get rid of superfluous skills.


It looks pretty easy to just swap in and out parts of 3.5e and 4e that you like to get the best possible game.

That is indeed possible. I am sure there are many who will do that.

I don't really see much to change in 4e that 3e did much better, though. It's really a sea change in game philosophy - if you like it, you like it. I like it, and I encourage others to at least give it a try before they bash it.

[SamTheCleric]

Something I noticed after reading through the DMG... I really like how the encounters are set up. Each level has a "standard monster" xp (for instance, level 2 is 125). You multiply this standard xp by the number of players... and viola, there's your encounter budget for an equal level encounter.

Also... Brutes are... tough. o_O

[Ulrichomega]

I just read through the PH and the only complaint that I have is where (when describing damage) it doesn't say what 1[W] means until much later (in the weapons section). It could have been placed earlier on.

I really like the ability to diversify your character from others. No longer will every single fighter be the same. However, some of the weapons were a little odd, with many weapons doing 1d10 damage (maximum that I saw).

Reading early on, I got the picture that there would be feats that would allow you to really specialize with your chosen weapon, but there weren't nearly as many as I thought there would be.

It took me a while to realize that there were only 4 at-will powers for every class. I think that there should be 1 more to chose from at both Paragon and Epic levels, but that's just me.

As for the skills system, I see no reason that one shouldn't be able to take 3.x's system and extrapolate it into 4.0 and replace the one currently in place. It would take some work, but then they get the system they want.

One of the complaints that I've seen is that the system discourages roleplaying. I cannot see how this can be. The rules are there for the things that need rules. If you need rules to know how to talk to an NPC, you have problems. Sure, the books focus on the crunch, but that's what they're supposed to do.

I bought both the PH and the DMG, and was dissapointed with the DMG, I should have gone with the MM, but I'll just buy it tommorrow at WWDnDD.

A few more epic paths would have been nice, but I'm sure they will be there eventually. Only 2 of them seemed to be truly epic though. I was turned off by the "Once you hit 30th level, you are immediatly taken from the world" part, but the next sentence said that you don't have to do this, so it's good.

The Paragon paths are great. The Kensei looks really cool (20th level power is simply awesome).

The wizard looks a little strange, but I guess book-keeping will be easier than in previous editions.

Yay warlock!

Just the ramblings of a tired mind.

[JaxGaret]

Reading early on, I got the picture that there would be feats that would allow you to really specialize with your chosen weapon, but there weren't nearly as many as I thought there would be.

It took me a while to realize that there were only 4 at-will powers for every class. I think that there should be 1 more to chose from at both Paragon and Epic levels, but that's just me.

You're forgetting that there will be splatbooks. Many new feats and powers for all the classes.


As for the skills system, I see no reason that one shouldn't be able to take 3.x's system and extrapolate it into 4.0 and replace the one currently in place. It would take some work, but then they get the system they want.

I like the new skill system. It's pretty much the same as 3e's, but with some of the superfluous skills wrapped up into single skills, which is good.


One of the complaints that I've seen is that the system discourages roleplaying. I cannot see how this can be. The rules are there for the things that need rules. If you need rules to know how to talk to an NPC, you have problems. Sure, the books focus on the crunch, but that's what they're supposed to do.

Agreed. Roleplaying shouldn't be hindered by the system at all. In fact, there are several things that I like about the system that encourage roleplaying.


I bought both the PH and the DMG, and was dissapointed with the DMG, I should have gone with the MM, but I'll just buy it tommorrow at WWDnDD.

What didn't you like about the DMG?


A few more epic paths would have been nice, but I'm sure they will be there eventually. Only 2 of them seemed to be truly epic though. I was turned off by the "Once you hit 30th level, you are immediatly taken from the world" part, but the next sentence said that you don't have to do this, so it's good.

I like all of the Epic paths so far. They're truly Epic in scope and what they can do that sets them apart from Paragons.


The wizard looks a little strange, but I guess book-keeping will be easier than in previous editions.

Having DMed for a 6th-level Wizard, they definitely do have a Controller feel on the battlefield, dictating to the enemy changes in tactics and positioning.


Yay warlock!

Yay different pacts for Warlocks!


Just the ramblings of a tired mind.

Those are some of the best ones.

[Bearonet]

Something I noticed after reading through the DMG... I really like how the encounters are set up. Each level has a "standard monster" xp (for instance, level 2 is 125). You multiply this standard xp by the number of players... and viola, there's your encounter budget for an equal level encounter.

Also... Brutes are... tough. o_O
Brutes aren't so tough after the Cleric as hit their low Will defense with Command, and thrown then Dazed and Prone at the Rogue's feet, and the Rogue hits them with Torturous Strike. Well, actually, they are, but at least they're Bloodied now...

[Gralamin]

A Well said an accurate view from my experience so far.
I'll also echo the thought that 4E is really really fun, far funner then you would expect.:smallbiggrin:

[Killersquid]

Sounds good, but I will stick with 3.5, it just fits my style of play a lot.

[huttj509]

Here's what I liked most about the review:

The beginning, where SamtheCleric basically says "I like 4E, I'm trying to be impartial in my review, but you know where I'm coming from."

Without that, some would look at it, see an approving bent, and might be inclined to write it off as bias. With the stated stance it really comes through that you are trying to be impartial, and actually review what's provided without just saying "it's great, buy it already" (note, you're allowed to say that after a review, but not AS the review :-D ). It was just "this is what it is, here's some things I specifically liked, and here's why".

Two thumbs up for the review.

[Arcturus]

Awesome review! I hope that by the time I finish reading the books I come to the same conclusions that you have!


Ah. That's something I've missed in WotC D&D. There were published worlds before, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and (one of my favorites) Dark Sun, but the game never shied from giving a DM tools to design and bring his own setting to life. 3e was very shy on any material such as that.

I have played 3-3.5 since their release and have only played 2 sessions in a stock world (a very short-lived Raveloft campaign...) I am curious as to what sort of tools you want for campaign creation - as it seems that there is much more in the way of imagination than formula when it comes to it. Perhaps the group I am with is just obsessed with world creation, but we've never found any stock setting very appealing.

With regard to 4e in general, I am really excited to see it in practice. 3e always had the feel to me that a lot of the values they threw in for modifiers and progression were rather arbitrary - making for a really dynamic feel from around 5th - 10th level, but too random (read: random death) prior and too boring (chopping wood) after. It always seemed like there were better systems available, but no one in my group wanted to take the time to learn them.

According to WOTC's podcasts they tried to design the new system to avoid the extremes of the old system - if this turns out to be true, I'll be quite thrilled! I like the more focused and flavorful abilities and the general direction that they are taking by thinking about combat roles and making sure that the rules of the classes match the theme when you play them in combat.

I still have much more to read, but I am optimistic thus far.

[RTGoodman]

Something I noticed after reading through the DMG... I really like how the encounters are set up. Each level has a "standard monster" xp (for instance, level 2 is 125). You multiply this standard xp by the number of players... and viola, there's your encounter budget for an equal level encounter.

I was coming to talk about that exact thing . I hadn't heard anyone mention it, but I just got around to reading the DMG a little bit ago (went for PHB first, then MM, then DMG), and I really like this idea of an "encounter budget." I mean, I've already got two encounters for my Red Hand of Doom conversion done because it was so easy to figure out. My only problem is that some of the monsters I want to use are WAY too high a level, and most so high that even reducing the stats via the recommended method is still too far off to work well. (Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Hydras.)

[JaxGaret]

With regard to 4e in general, I am really excited to see it in practice. 3e always had the feel to me that a lot of the values they threw in for modifiers and progression were rather arbitrary - making for a really dynamic feel from around 5th - 10th level, but too random (read: random death) prior and too boring (chopping wood) after. It always seemed like there were better systems available, but no one in my group wanted to take the time to learn them.

That's pretty much the design philosophy behind 4e. They took the sweet spot of 3e (approximately levels 4-12), and stretched it out over 30 levels.


According to WOTC's podcasts they tried to design the new system to avoid the extremes of the old system - if this turns out to be true, I'll be quite thrilled! I like the more focused and flavorful abilities and the general direction that they are taking by thinking about combat roles and making sure that the rules of the classes match the theme when you play them in combat.

I still have much more to read, but I am optimistic thus far.

Hope you like it! I know I do.

[Farmer42]

I've really liked what I've seen so far of 4E. The PHB is smooth and crunchy (I play HERO, so large chunks of rules is alright by me), the MM has a TON of stats and beasties to throw at players while also presenting interesting alternate choices for player races (Shadar-kai FTW), and the DMG reads like a guid to DMing as opposed to a second rulebook for how things work. I wasn't overly fond of 3e's DMG, and aside from a few tables, which were either reprinted elsewhere or used a simple formula, I never used it. I never even owned one personally.


I was coming to talk about that exact thing . I hadn't heard anyone mention it, but I just got around to reading the DMG a little bit ago (went for PHB first, then MM, then DMG), and I really like this idea of an "encounter budget." I mean, I've already got two encounters for my Red Hand of Doom conversion done because it was so easy to figure out. My only problem is that some of the monsters I want to use are WAY too high a level, and most so high that even reducing the stats via the recommended method is still too far off to work well. (Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Hydras.)

Have you considered raising the PC levels instead? I've never player RHoD, but it shouldn't be too hard to bump the PC levels up a notch and adjust than to bring monsters down.

[Jarlax]

I was coming to talk about that exact thing . I hadn't heard anyone mention it, but I just got around to reading the DMG a little bit ago (went for PHB first, then MM, then DMG), and I really like this idea of an "encounter budget." I mean, I've already got two encounters for my Red Hand of Doom conversion done because it was so easy to figure out. My only problem is that some of the monsters I want to use are WAY too high a level, and most so high that even reducing the stats via the recommended method is still too far off to work well. (Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Hydras.)

you can bring most monsters down by 5 levels max through the DMs toolbox in the DMG, but beyond this i guess just choose to sub the monster out for something equally appropriate.

that said in the specific case of the hydra it wouldn't be hard to make him from scratch or de-level him more than 5 levels, you have all his powers right there and they all perfectly scale with level because they just let it have 4 attacks and reach on OA's

[SamTheCleric]

I second the idea of raising the level for RHoD and just adding class templates to things that are too low (like the hobgoblins)

[JaxGaret]

I second the idea of raising the level for RHoD

Agreed.


and just adding class templates to things that are too low (like the hobgoblins)

Minionizing them would work well.

[RTGoodman]

I guess I could raise the PC level, but I already did a few encounters based on APL 8 with 5 PCs. (I picked 8 because it's sort of like 5th level in 3.5 - you're stronger than a lot of people, but you're not quite able to pick up your PrC/paragon path yet.)

The first encounter, for example, is a EL 11 encounter (which, like in the original, is a tough encounter, but it's the only one of the day, so it should be okay). It features some Hobgoblin Warriors (Level 8 Minions), two Hobgoblin Commanders (Level 5-ish Soldiers), a Hobgoblin Hand of Bane Tiamat (Level 8 Elite Controller), a Hobgoblin Warcaster with the Cleric template (Level 6, I think, Elite Controller), and a Hellhound (Level 8 Brute). I think it ends up being just short of my XP Budget for the encounter, but because it's an ambush and there some difficult terrain, I just upped it to EL.

I could throw the standard Fen Hydra in, but that's another Difficult encounter, being a Level 12 Solo Brute by itself. The next big encounter is almost the same, featuring a Green Dragon (haven't figure him out yet, but probably either advancing the Level 8 one or deleveling the 12-ish level one), with some minions, and maybe some archers, and that'll probably need to be in the Difficult range, too. I guess I could just bump the Hydra down to Level 9 or 10 Solo Brute instead of all the way down to the party level. Or maybe just make a Level 8 Solo Brute version from scratch. Shouldn't be too hard, right...?

[JaxGaret]

I guess I could raise the PC level, but I already did a few encounters based on APL 8 with 5 PCs. (I picked 8 because it's sort of like 5th level in 3.5 - you're stronger than a lot of people, but you're not quite able to pick up your PrC/paragon path yet.)

Seems just about right to me.


The first encounter, for example, is a EL 11 encounter (which, like in the original, is a tough encounter, but it's the only one of the day, so it should be okay). It features some Hobgoblin Warriors (Level 8 Minions), two Hobgoblin Commanders (Level 5-ish Soldiers), a Hobgoblin Hand of Bane Tiamat (Level 8 Elite Controller), a Hobgoblin Warcaster with the Cleric template (Level 6, I think, Elite Controller), and a Hellhound (Level 8 Brute). I think it ends up being just short of my XP Budget for the encounter, but because it's an ambush and there some difficult terrain, I just upped it to EL.

I could throw the standard Fen Hydra in, but that's another Difficult encounter, being a Level 12 Solo Brute by itself. The next big encounter is almost the same, featuring a Green Dragon (haven't figure him out yet, but probably either advancing the Level 8 one or deleveling the 12-ish level one), with some minions, and maybe some archers, and that'll probably need to be in the Difficult range, too. I guess I could just bump the Hydra down to Level 9 or 10 Solo Brute instead of all the way down to the party level. Or maybe just make a Level 8 Solo Brute version from scratch. Shouldn't be too hard, right...?

That all sounds just dandy. The 4e monster modification rules really shine here, don't they?

[RTGoodman]

That all sounds just dandy. The 4e monster modification rules really shine here, don't they?

They really do.

And you know what? I still want to play some 4E characters (hooray for Dragonborn Warlords!), but I think this edition may actually end up with me WANTING to DM - there's just so much cool stuff! I never would have guessed!

[JaxGaret]

They really do.

And you know what? I still want to play some 4E characters (hooray for Dragonborn Warlords!), but I think this edition may actually end up with me WANTING to DM - there's just so much cool stuff! I never would have guessed!

I am in complete agreement. DMing 4e has been a joy, and the players have a great time with it.