Did Starcraft steal from Warhammer or vice-versa or something?

[Serpentine]

I don't really know nor care, but this is a far more appropriate place for this discussion anyway :smallsmile: For those curious, the debate that annoyed the hell out of me prompted me to start this thread seems to have begun here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4417645&postcount=26).

The debate as I understand it so far:
1. Yes, but that's okay.
2. Yes, and they suck for it.
3. Yes, and a whole lot of other places.
4. No, the other way round.
5. No, they're completely different.
6. No, from other people/products.
7. Yes, but they stole from them as well.

There you go lads/ladies. Enjoy. :smallcool:

[LBO]

1) and 3). (The first 3.)

[Seraph]

only on the surface. 40k is far more guilty of ripping off Dune, Aliens, the USSR, etc. to really have any right accusing others of ripping people off.

[Illiterate Scribe]

They may have done, but it doesn't matter; from an aesthetic perspective, WH40K far outclasses the others in its field. Also, in b4 rage.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You forgot one:

6. Yes but Games Workshop have since returned the favour.

[GoC]

You've got two 3s but either way I vote 7: They were developed independantly and don't "steal".

[Kacaier]

In my personal opinion (which I'm sure you all know I'd post! :P), I think StarCraft does have some Warhammer 40k elements. As well as reaching out in many more. Also to bring to the fact, Warhammer 40k is a major SciFi taker themselves.

But that's alright considering the nature of science fiction. There's no rabidness if people admit to WH40ks unoriginal elements instead of just pointing out StarCraft and yelling as loud as you can. :smalltongue:

All fiction come from some inspiration, as it is the nature of our minds. We can't conceive what we don't know. :smallwink:

[Rutee]

You forgot one:

6. Yes but Games Workshop have since returned the favour.

...They have? Can ya explain that one for me?

[Kacaier]

...They have? Can ya explain that one for me?
I believe he's referencing the T'au, and I recall one post-2000 released Tyranid model.

[Rutee]

Erm. What about the Tau? There's a gap of information here, I think. They're.. space commies, right? What's that got to do with SC?

Though that'd be true, they probably do have at least a few Zergling inspired Nids..

[Kacaier]

Erm. What about the Tau? There's a gap of information here, I think. They're.. space commies, right? What's that got to do with SC?
Ehh, I think you guys have had enough of me ranting. :smalltongue: So I'll just use preexisting rants. Take everything people say about how Protoss rip off T'au, switch it around, and there you go.


Though that'd be true, they probably do have at least a few Zergling inspired Nids..
I think the stuff going around was the Ravener of the Third Edition Tyranids in comparison with the Zerg Hydralisk.

[Rutee]

The Tau do come significantly after Starcraft, but don't people usually say the Protoss are Eldar?

[Zenos]

If the Tau are a ripoff of the Protoss I think it may be vengeance. Although I don't really see how the high tech, ranged fixated, non-psychic Tau have anything to do with the close combat-oriented, psychic Protoss.

[Kacaier]

The Tau do come significantly after Starcraft, but don't people usually say the Protoss are Eldar?
That's how it was originally, but some people who are newcomers to the Warhammer 40k franchise, like the ones who know it through Dawn of War, aren't aware of the release of the T'au. Through their own personal research, all they know is Warhammer 40k originally came out in 1987, thusly assuming all WH40k races came out at that time.

Anyhow, because of this, the comparison between Protoss and T'au are usually like this: They wear gold armor, are blue skinned, were originally in tribal warfare before uniting into a caste system, and make extensive use of robotics. I'm not specifically saying Games Workshop made a 'back-at-you' gesture towards, Blizzard, but those who argue the similarities of the two dig their own graves.

[Mr._Blinky]

The Tau do come significantly after Starcraft, but don't people usually say the Protoss are Eldar?

Yeah, but a lot of people also insist that the looks of the Protoss are ripped off of the Tau. Just look at the thread in question for numerous examples. Personally, I can see a barely superficial resemblance (neither have noses, and are a bit scaly looking), but people still try and make that argument. Which becomes totally moot because Protoss outdate Tau by a good three years.

Also, on the Protoss=Eldar thing, c'mon. They both have powerful tech, are psychics, and like melee. That's about the end of the similarities. For one thing, their societies are totally different. For two, the Eldar are Space Elves, while the Protoss are actually alien. Third, Eldar units have a tendency of being the squishy kind of high-tech, something nobody can accuse the Protoss off. And you can't really pull the "psychic aliens" card, because that's a pretty common element in sci-fi, same as the "melee aliens". The only one that leaves is the "Dark" versions of both, and those are extremely different as well, with the Dark Eldar being the insane BDSM-obsessed versions of the Eldar, and the Dark Templar being fairly good guys who were exiled over cultural differences. Really, not much similarity their.

And the Terran Marine=Space Marine only really goes as far as, "OMG, TEH"RE BOATH HUMANS IN TEH HUMANS SHAPED PWERED ARMERS!!" I got news for you, so is practically every other humanoid powered armor out there. What else do you expect it to look like, an octopus? Though I will admit a bit of a similarity in the images that someone posted between Starcraft 2 concept art and that Spacehulk cover...

Really, the only similarity I give credence to is the Zerg and the Tyranids. But then again, both are ripped off of Aliens anyways, so that's just nitpicking. Plus, the actual fluff behind both is completely different. I don't think the Tyranids were ever taken over by a human that they'd infected with their DNA...

[Athaniar]

Anyone wanting to build a good fictional universe of course takes inspiration from everywhere else in popular culture. That's how it is. As long as it's not downright cloning and slapping a different lable on it, I'm fine.

[black dragoon]

Someone finally noticed the POWAMR threads ongoing debate huh.:smallwink:

[Tom_Violence]

What does it matter since they all clearly ripped off Giger anyway. Y'know, cos they're aliens and stuff. :smalltongue:

[Oslecamo]

Ok, let's see the similarities:

1-Humans with big weapons and big robotic armors.
2-Ancient aliens with supercomplicated caste system, advanced technology backed up by mysterious psychic powers.
3-Alien monsters wich are trying to eat everything that exists.

The truth is, those are elements you can find in any futuristic seting.

Of course that there will be badass robotic armors and weapons, and of course that there will be mysterious psychic advanced aliens who think humanity is super dumb and then some kind of monstruous horde wich is trying to kill everyone.

It's the basis of a lot of books, movies and games.

And the people still love it, so one can't blame blizzard and GW for using a winning formula.

I myself play both dawn of war and Starcraft and greatly enjoy both.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...They have? Can ya explain that one for me?

I was mainly refering to the Tyranid Ravener which is a post Starcraft Addition.

Compare:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/miniature-gallery/9/

http://homepage.mac.com/cheethorne/Starcraft/hydralisk.htm

The Scythe blades on the Hydralisk were useless in game and Tyranid Hormagaunts had them first but they did become a lot more common at the same time the Ravener was introduced to the point that they completely supplanted the boneswords wielded by earlier Tyranid Warriors and Hive Tyrants. The Carnifex also had scythes but they were less similar to Hydralisk scythes until the scythes became standardised.

[Smeik]

They didn't steal.

They researched.

That's a big difference, as research happens in more than one place.:smallwink:

[Nerd-o-rama]

1 and 3, blatantly. But I'd call it more "homage" than theft, especially since they only make references to individual things and have an entirely different plot. That's just how Blizzard's sense of humor works.

[Bryn]

I have heard that the original Warcraft was going to be based on Warhammer Fantasy, but GW changed their minds; since then, from the looks of things (bearing in mind I don't actually play either game) the franchises have both moved in different directions. Notably, the first Warcraft (IIRC, I could be confabulating) credited Warhammer Fantasy as an inspiration.

From this, people could well have come to the conclusion that Starcraft copied 40k in the same way, as both universes are dark sci-fi universes in which everyone's evil and power-armoured marines fight swarms of aliens in a perpetual war while being manipulated from the side by an ancient race with psychic powers; in addition, both are spawned from a fantasy universe and have similar names while being completely different. Such similarities are superficial in nature, however, as there is a whole lot more to both universes and thus it would be silly to dismiss Starcraft as a rip-off of 40k.

Apart from that, there are very few things that 40k doesn't either reference or borrow from. They've done a good enough job of it though that something new has emerged from the old ideas, to the point that 40k is a pretty unique universe in its own right; in any case, if you're going to rip off anything, Aliens is a pretty good choice :smalltongue:

Now, if only Starcraft II looked quite as good in-game as it does in the promotional video; then again, Dawn of War II seems to be doing a pretty good job on that front.

[Kacaier]

Considering I've never had a more friendly debate with WH40k die hards, I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on the specific issue of the Imperial Space Marine and the Terran Marine.

I'd like to know through specifics, not just picture comparisons alone (honestly, I see no comparison between those), but what specifically between the armors are such replicas. Of course, post something beyond 'bulky' or 'armor-y' in a less broad sense. :smalltongue:

[LBO]

friendly debate

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4418855&postcount=149)

[Revlid]

1. and 3. They're not direct rip offs, they both take inspiration from similar sources, and the hearts of the stories are different, but there are a number of specific "homages", and visually the Zerg and Terran Marines are very, very similar.


"This is my Warhammer! It cost 40k!"

[Kacaier]

I have heard that the original Warcraft was going to be based on Warhammer Fantasy, but GW changed their minds; since then, from the looks of things (bearing in mind I don't actually play either game) the franchises have both moved in different directions. Notably, the first Warcraft (IIRC, I could be confabulating) credited Warhammer Fantasy as an inspiration.
I still see that as rumors. Of course, if you showed me the evidence, I'd gladly change my opinion. :smallamused:


Apart from that, there are very few things that 40k doesn't either reference or borrow from. They've done a good enough job of it though that something new has emerged from the old ideas, to the point that 40k is a pretty unique universe in its own right; in any case, if you're going to rip off anything, Aliens is a pretty good choice :smalltongue:
Do you believe StarCraft has reached that same understanding that they've emerged as a unique universe in their own right?


friendly debate

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4418855&postcount=149)
You know, you're not really helping your own sanctity by following me around with nothing constructive. :smallyuk: I never said those were friendly, but I mellowed out (as in this thread) considering I found some more reasonable people, unlike you. :smallannoyed:

And as I try to make a less confrontational approach, look who's here to kick up the dirt. Dude, mellow out. :smalltongue:


Terran Marines are very, very similar.
I still don't understand that bit, not that I'm calling you out. Like my former post above, I always wondered where the similarities are.

[SmartAlec]

I still see that as rumors. Of course, if you showed me the evidence, I'd gladly change my opinion. :smallamused:.

The credits, at least, are not rumours; Warhammer Fantasy is directly mentioned as an inspiration in the end credits of Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. I can't find it anywhere on YouTube to show you, unfortunately.

[Mx.Silver]

I'm unsure, but I doubt the similarities are coincidental. Certainly Warcraft III contained a number of references to Warhammer in certain unit names and even a shout-out in the form of one of the 'annoyed' responses of the Griffin Rider unit, who if you clicked on it enough would declare "This warhammer cost 40k!". (All of these were subsequently removed in the expansion pack for unknown reasons).

Therefore I'd say 1). Probably 3) as well.

[Cubey]

I think this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10/) Penny Arcade comic is very on-topic.

[Ecalsneerg]

None because the thread title is wrong, Warhammer refers to fantasy, 40k refers to Warhammer 40k. Get it right. :smalltongue:

I'd say 1. and 3. It does take a little, but never in a "OMGRIPOFF" way. 40k is a fairly large part of the sci-fi genre in many ways, so obviously it'll draw comparisons/be stolen from.

[Thangorodrim]

People think the short lived, ranged weapon oriented, non-psychic, young, aggressively expansionist Tau are a rip-off of the Protoss, or vice versa ?

They don't even look similar!

That has to be one of the stupider things I've read recently :smallbiggrin:

[Bryn]

Do you believe StarCraft has reached that same understanding that they've emerged as a unique universe in their own right?
I couldn't say, due to the rather embarassing fact that I've never actually played Starcraft. Even so, Starcraft seems unique enough to me from the videos and what I know of it, but I can't really claim to be an expert on every sci-fi universe. Certainly the common tropes, ideas and designs that it uses, however original, are some of my favourites, something that is also true with 40k; such is a conclusion that's really based only on visual designs (read:this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELhtXtnV3pg)) if I'm honest. Still, it's popular and famous enough that it must bring something unique to the table.

[Oslecamo]

From this, people could well have come to the conclusion that Starcraft copied 40k in the same way, as both universes are dark sci-fi universes in which everyone's evil and power-armoured marines fight swarms of aliens in a perpetual war while being manipulated from the side by an ancient race with psychic powers;


In soviet russia starcraft universe, it's the swarms of aliens wich manipulate you.

No, I'm being serious, the actual leader of the Zerg, the queen of blades, literally made the protoss and terran dance like pupets to her will.

And the diferences don't end here. The terrans are very far from an united empire. There are several internal disputes for power and it's as common to see terrans killing each other as it is killing aliens.

[GolemsVoice]

I had a much larger post written, but the government took it away.
So: it is true that Starcraft2, probably due to better graphics, did get a lot dirtier and grittier compared to Starcraft1, and that some concepts and units might look more or less familiar with what Warhammer 40k has. ( I'll give you the Space Marines. Only that SC's generally low-life scum, while their 40k counterparts are the best of the best from their people.) But it certainly is individual enough, both in plot and in fluff, and has far more original material than "stolen/researched/homaged/whatever" stuff".
Starcraft, although it is dark and mean, is still a LOT more brighter than even the prettiest thing that Warhammer 40k can muster. The whole idea behind both games is different. While in Warhammer 40k the idea is basically "once it was really neat (and it was for most races, like the Eldar, the IoM, the Necron) and since than it all went downhill" while SC is more like "if you want to win, you've got to play dirty and fight hard, and if that means nuking someone to pieces, so be it.".
If you aknowledge this, you see that most similarities are, as I said, only visual. If you find that enough to protest, that's a field that can be discussed. But the thing behind both settings is wildly different.

[konfeta]

I have heard that the original Warcraft was going to be based on Warhammer Fantasy, but GW changed their minds; since then, from the looks of things (bearing in mind I don't actually play either game) the franchises have both moved in different directions. Notably, the first Warcraft (IIRC, I could be confabulating) credited Warhammer Fantasy as an inspiration.

Where DID that come from? I haven't seen either Blizzard or GW confirm or deny that rumor. Can someone give me an official linky? Everyone chants about it like a mantra, but no one ever backs it up.


Certainly Warcraft III contained a number of references to Warhammer in certain unit names and even a shout-out in the form of one of the 'annoyed' responses of the Griffin Rider unit, who if you clicked on it enough would declare "This warhammer cost 40k!". (All of these were subsequently removed in the expansion pack for unknown reasons).

You would be hard-pressed to find a unit in WC that doesn't have a pop-culture quote. SC Dropship - aliens, Firebat - Apocalypse Now, etc. As far as I know the Warhammer 40k quote was removed because GW wanted it removed. Can't find the quote, but it was a copyright issue, I guess. GW is very anal about it, just like WotC

[BRC]

As a fan of both, let me throw out my opinion.

Though the whole "Bug War" concept is original to neither, The Zerg were definetally inspired by the Tyranids. However, Most of the similarities end there.


I notice people claiming that the SC universes marines are ripping off from the 40K marines. However, you must rember that "Marine" is a millitary term. If you think about it, an interplanetary spacegoing culture would likely base it's operations primerily off starships, and so most of it's soliders would be Marines. Neither is Power Armor an original concept. Mind you SC armor appears to be more luke an armored enviroment suit, while W40K armor turns you into Iron Man.

After that, what else is there, Psycics? Been in Sci Fi since Dune first mixed Fantasy and Sci Fi Elements. Besides, they way they are handled is very different. W40K Psykers are more like Wizards (They are actually refered to a Witches) while SC Psycics are more like Daredevil or some action movie person. Protoss and Eldar? Grey skinned dogmatic aliens aint so original either.

[turkishproverb]

Where DID that come from? I haven't seen either Blizzard or GW confirm or deny that rumor. Can someone give me an official linky? Everyone chants about it like a mantra, but no one ever backs it up.

I'm not sure where it came from, but I've heard similar rumors about both WC 1 and SC. It's a rumor thats been around since the 90s, though, i can tell you that.

[konfeta]

40k
-The Warp
-The Emperor
-Imperial Military Organization
-Imperium's Size
-Government
-Technology
-Soldiers, Vehicles, Airships, Starships
-Extensive human history
-Scope and Size, of well, everything
-High Power Level
-Number of races
-Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar (no, Dark Templar and Dark Eldar are NOTHING alike), Eldar(ditto for Protoss/Eldar), Inquisition, Chaos Forces, etc.

An incomplete list of stuff Warhammer 40k has and Starcraft does not. With a few exceptions, every single aspect you look at in one setting, the other setting will either not have or will have it done incredibly different. It's just mind boggling how anyone who is familiar with both settings cannot see the vast differences.

If it wasn't for Blizzard's exaggerated art style being similar to WH/WH40k, this argument would have never came up because the argument hold practically no water. To repeat what I said in the other thread, "SC ripping of WH40k" is a bandwagon most foul. All universes borrow something from one another. But I rarely see a setting that goes to the level of completely and utterly ripping off another setting in the way the bandwagonees foamrage about Blizzard taking from GW. It's surreal.


I'm not sure where it came from, but I've heard similar rumors about both WC 1 and SC. It's a rumor thats been around since the 90s, though, i can tell you that.

I can see where it comes from about WC1. The initial version of Orcs and Humans was very aesthetically and thematically similar to WH. But as WC2 rolled on, the universes already diverged and became completely different.

Starcraft? No god damned clue. If you look at SC alpha stage, they were basically trying to do WC in space.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

I notice people claiming that the SC universes marines are ripping off from the 40K marines. However, you must rember that "Marine" is a millitary term. If you think about it, an interplanetary spacegoing culture would likely base it's operations primerily off starships, and so most of it's soliders would be Marines. Neither is Power Armor an original concept. Mind you SC armor appears to be more luke an armored enviroment suit, while W40K armor turns you into Iron Man.
The whole Space Marine thing can probably be traced back to Heinlein's Starship Troopers, though Heinlein presented his concept as an army rather than a marine corp. The name likely stems from the colonial Marines of Aliens - in fact, the characterization of the Starcraft's Space Marines (and the Marines of Halo) owes a lot to Aliens. They're really quite different from WH40K's Space Marines.

[hamishspence]

There was a 40K fan site for a while (Tyranid Power) (closed down now) which did indeed rip off starcraft blatantly (as in, pictures taken directly from the game)

The Ravener is themed very like the Hydralisk.

However, the two have a lot more differences than similarities. Alien swarms have been around for a long time, though few are described as having as many variants as either Zerg or Tyranids. The Bugs of the original Starship troops novel only had four types mentioned in the book: worker, warrior, brain, queen.

[konfeta]

The marines thing probably stems as tradition from real life wars. Why change the name, when you already have something that fits the role so well?

Marine - a navy's soldier. As simple as that.

Space Marine - a "space navy's" soldier. Simplicity itself.

[LordVader]

You've got two 3s but either way I vote 7: They were developed independantly and don't "steal".

Explain the Zerg, then? They're remarkably more similar to the Tyranids than the Tyranids are to the Aliens aliens. They're pretty much a direct ripoff. Hydralisks look like Tyranid Warriors, as do Zerglings and Hormugaunts.

Essentially, the main stealing point in SC 1 is the Zerg. Terrans are radically different.

Warcraft 3, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story. Blatantly ripped off of WHFB. First off, the entire Orc race is essentially physically identical to WHFB orcs. Second, many units, such as the Dwarven Gyrocopter *ahem*, Dwarven Rifleman, the concept behind the Night Elves, etc, range from either faintly to heavily Warhammer inspired, and in some cases a direct ripoff.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Warcraft III is probably closer to Warhammer than Warcraft I was.

Warhammer never had basic human infantry in Plate Armour, Orc Necromancers or Water Elementals.

However dwarven helecopters and tanks are clearly ripped off Warhammer FB. However Warcraft III also introduced Gnolls and Kobolds into Warcraft which are clearly pinched from D&D. Warcraft III has more Warhammer elements only because it's bigger than its predeccesors and has more elements from all sources.


Explain the Zerg, then? They're remarkably more similar to the Tyranids than the Tyranids are to the Aliens aliens. They're pretty much a direct ripoff. Hydralisks look like Tyranid Warriors, as do Zerglings and Hormugaunts.

Are they? Zerg never hold guns, their bioweapons are all internal. As I already posted, Tyranids made a shift to using less symbiotic weapons after Starcraft was released. The symbiotic bioweapons used by Tyranids are quite unique though slightly similar to Starship's troopers bugs in that they use external technology.

[konfeta]

Are they? Zerg never hold guns, their bioweapons are all internal. As I already posted, Tyranids made a shift to using less symbiotic weapons after Starcraft was released. The symbiotic bioweapons used by Tyranids are quite unique though slightly similar to Starship's troopers bugs in that they use external technology.

Adding to that, do Tyranids even have characters or a motivation outside eat everything?

Correct me if I am wrong, here are the similarities between the two races:

1. Organic based
2. Vicious swarming troops
3. Have a hierarchy of psychic control
4. Appearance of certain units (and generally, there are only so many ways you can do an organic-insectoid looking race).

Differences:

1. External weaponry against internal weaponry.
2. One seems to strive to gain biomass(eat everything), other has a definitive goal of assimilating the Protoss and forming an ultimate race.
3. One has absolutely no personalities or characters, other has both. Don't forget that it comes entirely under control of a mutated human afterwards.
4. One uses psyker abilities, the other doesn't do anything of the sort.
5. One uses advanced infiltration tactics like genestealer cults, other does not. The Zerg just come and infest, no subtlety.
6. One is essentially a true collective consciousness, capable of discarding troops as if chopping off it's own limbs, leaving them inert and completely harmless. The other is a collection of mutated creatures under control of a single powerful being, if control is lost they start behaving like you expect wild animals to behave.
7. Numbers. Oh boy, are they different.
8. Troop nature - Tyranids seem to build their own creatures depending on what genetic material they have gathered. Zerg don't create, they warp whatever they assimilate. Their troops are heavily mutated versions of some being they assimilated. (not 100% sure on this one, but that is the impression I got from the fluff)
9. One uses spaceships (hiveships), the other does not.

Sooo.... Yeah.

As for the Warcraft part, that one is a conglomeration of every fantasy idea ever conceived. Seriously, this is the ultimate recycling project of all time. Can't argue that they took from Warhammer, but to constantly point that out is to marginalize all other source material.

[Bryn]

No, I'm being serious, the actual leader of the Zerg, the queen of blades, literally made the protoss and terran dance like pupets to her will.

And the diferences don't end here. The terrans are very far from an united empire. There are several internal disputes for power and it's as common to see terrans killing each other as it is killing aliens.

As I said in my post, the similarities are superficial. Apart from that, sorry about my misunderstanding of who manipulates whom; a question, though: what do the Protoss do? I really don't know their role in the StarCraft is. Apart from fighting in wars, that is.

Apart from that, I can't find a citation for the Warcraft/Warhammer deal thing; I've found a blog post to that effect, but I've got nothing conclusive. Google is very unhelpful indeed in this matter (come on, let's set up the Semantic Web already :smallbiggrin:)

Edit:

6. One is essentially a true collective consciousness, capable of discarding troops as if chopping off it's own limbs, leaving them inert and completely harmless. The other is a collection of mutated creatures under control of a single powerful being, if control is lost they start behaving like you expect wild animals to behave.
I agree entirely with your points, except this one. When certain Tyranid creatures move out of range of the synapse creature (for example if they are blown up in battle or if there aren't enough Warriors to spread synapse across the swarm) Tyranids also revert to wild animal behaviour.

This is less pronounced than it was in previous editions of the rules; now they stand still or fall back if they fail (likely) a morale check, before they had a table that randomly determined their actions. Still, they share the link of reverting to animal-like behaviour if control is lost.

On the other hand, this point is still fairly filed under 'differences', since there is no central figure for the Tyranid hive mind, as you say. I'm really just quibbling here, because really what you say is true.

[Destro_Yersul]

Short Answer: Yes.

Less short Answer: Yes, but it's awesome.

As for Tau and Protoss... nah.. Tau have mouths, for one thing, and giant freakin' battlesuits driven by people who aren't dead, and frisbees with guns. Also kroot.

Bout the only similarity is the blue skin. Tau, for the record, have never worn Metallic armour. We suspect they make everything out of plastic :smalltongue:

[konfeta]

People who think Tau ripped off Protoss are paranoid. Tau are anime, the end.

[LordVader]

Are they? Zerg never hold guns, their bioweapons are all internal. As I already posted, Tyranids made a shift to using less symbiotic weapons after Starcraft was released. The symbiotic bioweapons used by Tyranids are quite unique though slightly similar to Starship's troopers bugs in that they use external technology.

Zerg don't hold guns, but the essential result is the same. They are simply too parallel to the Tyranids. They've got the lowly swarming, blade-armed attacker, the more buff one with good melee AND ranged attacks, a "spellcaster-type" unit, and a giant tanking unit. Pretty much even with the Tyranids.

Also, I'd argue that in fact, taking the smaller size of the Starcraft universe into consideration, the Zerg have similar proportions of numbers to the Tyranids.

[Bryn]

I've already posted a lot in this thread, but it seems like I'm going to do it again.

Tau are not anime, in several ways (and I know you were stating it for humorous effect, but I've seen too many people say that '4reals').

In the purest literal sense, Tau are not anime, due to not being animated in Japan, or even using the standard big-eyes, small mouth, pointed chin and thin body frame (which isn't even that ubiquitous anyway). But I know that's not what's meant.

The main comparison seems to be with mecha series, and in some ways, Tau reflect these, in that they have agile battlesuits controlled by a pilot within. That, however, is as far as the similarities go; Tau are also a force comprised of a variety of vehicles, such as the entirely non-anime Pirhana or any of the grav-tanks. Tau do not have quite the same gothic stylings as the rest of the 40k universe, and in some ways they are more typical of other sci-fi with smooth lines etc. Even then, the designs do not really bring them towards any anime that I know of; in my opinion, they're reasonably unique.

I will admit I'm not a fan of Tau battlesuits compared to other 40k vehicles, except when they're painted like the battlesuits in a certain White Dwarf which were beautifully rendered in a dirty, Used Future way. Despite that, I don't really think the links between Tau and mecha anime are significant.

[LordVader]

You make a good point. However, the common consensus throughout much of the Warhammer community seems to be that Tau were created to appeal to the mecha market.

[Tom_Violence]

You know, you're not really helping your own sanctity by following me around with nothing constructive. :smallyuk: I never said those were friendly, but I mellowed out (as in this thread) considering I found some more reasonable people, unlike you. :smallannoyed:

And as I try to make a less confrontational approach, look who's here to kick up the dirt. Dude, mellow out. :smalltongue:

Heh, well the guy really does have you bang to rights there. That post he linked to was absolutely hideous. And no amount of :smalltongue: :smallsmile: :smallconfused: :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: is gonna make anyone want to hug you anytime soon. I couldn't help but notice how such 'saving graces' were strangely absent from the original bile-spewing.

Anyway, the way I see it, Starcraft and 40K are clearly both operating from some fairly old and well-established scifi conventions. Neither can really claim to have created from scratch the concepts being discussed here.

What is quite striking though is the extent to which the Blizzard art guys seem to looking over Games Workshop's collective shoulder. The Space Hulk shots made me chuckle when I first saw them. I mean, the entire gameplay premise of Space Hulk was 'aliens sneak up on soldiers on a dark abandoned ship, hilarity ensues', and that gameplay objective was obviously represented in the artwork. The surprising thing is that Blizzard, coming from a completely different place gameplay-wise, have quite neatly adopted that exact style, right down to the very composition of the pieces of art. Now, as mentioned neither can claim to have come up with the concept (e.g. Cameron's Aliens had pretty much the same thing going on) but there are billions of ways that one can put together an image of aliens sneaking up on soldiers, and for Blizzard to 'somehow' arrive at the same conclusions as Games Workshop seems more than a little coincidental.

The other shot that struck me hard was this (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard2.gif) one. Obviously, both are swiped almost exactly from real world uniforms. What again seems a tad more than a coincidence is that they are both based on seemingly exactly the same real world uniform. Hmm... Don't try and tell me that that was the only conclusion of some obvious train of logic, please.

Lastly, on the subject of Warcraft vs. Warhammer, I remember when I played Warcraft 3 for the first time, and the dwarves with guns and the gnomes flying helicopters and stuff didn't seem out of place to me at all. It wasn't until quite a while later that the penny dropped and I worked out exactly why it all seemed so very familiar. Again, okay these two companies could have arrived at the same conclusions via differnet routes, but I just don't really buy it.

[Inhuman Bot]

No, Even though 40k came first. You can say anything came from anyone, but they seem diferent enough to me. oh, and SC wasn't 40k based. IT was origanlly supposed to be Starwarscraft.

[konfeta]

They've got the lowly swarming, blade-armed attacker, the more buff one with good melee AND ranged attacks, a "spellcaster-type" unit, and a giant tanking unit. Pretty much even with the Tyranids.

Let's ignore every other point made about the differences between Zerg and Tyranids. Really. It's helping your case, you have no idea how much. If the units don't fit your picture of Zerg-Are-Tyranid-Clones-To-The-T, you ignore it.

Let me give you a parallel description -

Basic Infantry Unit
Advanced Infantry Unit
Spellcaster
Tanking Unit

Wait. That just described the basic unit composition of 95% factions present in the RTS genre if you ignore their other units. Wait, more than the RTS genre, throw in various races in FPS and RPG's and whatnot.

You took a look at the similar art styles, and suddenly you point that there must be cloning in every aspect possible.

[BRC]

The other shot that struck me hard was this (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard2.gif) one. Obviously, both are swiped almost exactly from real world uniforms. What again seems a tad more than a coincidence is that they are both based on seemingly exactly the same real world uniform. Hmm... Don't try and tell me that that was the only conclusion of some obvious train of logic, please.

Actually, I think I wil. Most western style millitary officer uniforms follow the Sash and Medals style. And then they put a cape on it, whoop-de-do. You could say that Every single superhero costume is copying off each other because they are all skintight latex and capes.
Besides, The only things that were consistant about a commisar's uniform is the coat and the hat. Actually, in one of the Guants Ghost's books, a Commisar takes off their coat and hat and is more or less indistinguishable from a standard trooper. If you notice, the SC2 picture is wearing neither a coat NOR a hat.

[BRC]

The other shot that struck me hard was this (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard2.gif) one. Obviously, both are swiped almost exactly from real world uniforms. What again seems a tad more than a coincidence is that they are both based on seemingly exactly the same real world uniform. Hmm... Don't try and tell me that that was the only conclusion of some obvious train of logic, please.

Actually, I think I wil. Most western style millitary officer uniforms follow the Sash and Medals style. And then they put a cape on it, whoop-de-do. You could say that Every single superhero costume is copying off each other because they are all skintight latex and capes.
Besides, The only things that were consistant about a commisar's uniform is the coat and the hat. Actually, in one of the Guants Ghost's books, a Commisar takes off their coat and hat and is more or less indistinguishable from a standard trooper. If you notice, the SC2 picture is wearing neither a coat NOR a hat.

[TheEmerged]

I think this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10/) Penny Arcade comic is very on-topic.

That comic is also why the PA boards are planning to call their W40K guild "The Six Mouths", I believe :P

[hanzo66]

Although Starcraft and 40K share many similarities, most of which are standard of the Sci-Fi Genre. However how they go through such things are fairly different.

40K Space Marines: Superpowered Fascists who wield chain-whatevers and big submachine guns (at least that's what Bolters look like to me) and do close-ranged combat just as well (if not better) than long-range as well as using Psychic/faith-based powers. Fights for the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.

Starcraft SM: bottom of the scum barrel/Space Rednecks neurally futzed with into loyal yet still pretty crude at nature and not particularly bright fellows (they'll ask where the "Any Key" is on a computer), all too happy to use nukes as beer coolers ("Thank god for cold fusion!"). Use big rifles and don't do Close Combat (psychics are usually put as Ghost Agents).


Protoss: Psychic aliens whose infantry usually do close combat (long range combat is usually done by Vehicles). Fairly tough in that all units have energy shields. Formerly a fairly tribal race united by a mystic known as Khas, forming a Caste-based society of psychic mystics, with dissidents who believed the new way to be destroying their independence exiled and called the Dark Templar (who go on to learn how to be Space Ninjas). Ruled by the Conclave, they have a very conservative system and are generally arrogant people, though they seem to be able to work with Terrans (who are less close minded than the Imperium) pretty well, though their main allied Terran faction from what I know are Raynor's Raiders (Not sure of the Terran Dominion relationship with the Protoss, but I guess they're not quite at "Fire on Sight of the Dirty Xenos" stage). Their race was pretty much devastated by the Zerg and as of SCII the Dark Templar and main Protoss (not sure what to call them) have united in a Twilight.

Eldar/Tau:
Eldar: Psychic aliens whose units are pretty much all fairly squishy people whose race is indoctrinated into Crippling Overspecialization in categories. Formerly an extremely powerful race whose hedonism led them to create the Chaos God Slaanesh and obliterated them, putting them as a race that is barely attempting to survive. The Dark Eldar are the hedonistic S&M freaks who still base their culture on rape and torture and are generally masters of Squick. Eldar see the humans as a bunch of dumb little meatshields that they are all too willing to manipulate to being slaughtered by the billions to save only one of theirs (they were instrumental in orchestrating Warlord Ghazghkull's rise to power just so he won't end up attacking one of their craftworlds).

Tau: Technologically advanced aliens whose units are pretty much entirely dependent on powerful ranged weaponry, generally being squishy at close range and leaving close combat to alien allies. Have absolutely no psychic capabilities known, relying upon Battlesuits and tanks with some of the most kickass guns of their galaxies. Were formerly a tribal people killing themselves into extinction until the mysterious Ethereal Caste managed to unite them into a caste based Empire of Imperialistic benevolent dictatorship. Considered the most racially tolerant of their species, willing to ally with most factions short of Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids and Orks (AKA those who can't be reasoned with period) and always willing to assimilate integrate other species into their fledgling Empire.

[Oslecamo]

As I said in my post, the similarities are superficial. Apart from that, sorry about my misunderstanding of who manipulates whom; a question, though: what do the Protoss do? I really don't know their role in the StarCraft is. Apart from fighting in wars, that is.


Well, that pretty much sums what the protoss role.

They have a deep deep hatred for the zergs. They long ago realized the threat of the swarm and constantly try to destroy it.

When protoss attack Terrans, it's because the "dumb humans" just happen to be in their way.

Wich, considering that the Terrans are constantly trying to find a way to "tame" the zergs (and failing horribly), happens a lot more than you could think.

Fluff indicates that before the zergs apeared the protoss were an highly sofisticated race wich seeked only to improve itself in the arts of body, mind and technology. However right now protoss are trained for war since birth. Either they're fighting, building weapons and vehicles or giving out orders to other protoss. Battle has become the ultimate art for them.

If you're asking why the protoss then let themselves be manipulated by the queen of blades, it's because at that time there was another zerg leader, the overmind, wich comanded a great amount of zergs. The queen of blades persuaded the protoss and terrans that she was the lesser of two evils and whitout her help the protoss wouldn't ever defeat the overmind. Indeed they defeated it, except that as soon as the overmind was killed the queen of blades took control of all the zergs in the area and turned on the protoss and terrans.

Basically, they see themselves as the good guys, trying to bring order and harmony to the universe. Terrans are power hungry, and zergs just want to conquer everything. Protoss are the only ones wich actually seem to want something close to "justice" and "peace". Altough they're really really arrogant and short tempered. They will try to resort to diplomacy first, but should that fail, they will have no problem nuking your planet into a wasteland.

[Killersquid]

What you're all forgetting is everyone steals from everybody.

[Kacaier]

Heh, well the guy really does have you bang to rights there. That post he linked to was absolutely hideous. And no amount of :smalltongue: :smallsmile: :smallconfused: :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: is gonna make anyone want to hug you anytime soon. I couldn't help but notice how such 'saving graces' were strangely absent from the original bile-spewing.
Well, it helps to differentiate it from your bile-spewing.

[Eldariel]

The credits should ultimately go to the pioneers of Sci-Fi, Star Trek would be pretty high up there. All the classic Sci-Fi tropes are from those eras; the superadvanced psionic race, the organic technology, Humans in between of all that and indeed the "Far Away From Home".

[Mr. Scaly]

What you're all forgetting is everyone steals from everybody.

And to add to that, really who gives a damn? Both have brought joy to millions of people worldwide. Who cares where the ideas came from first?

[Cybren]

only on the surface. 40k is far more guilty of ripping off Dune, Aliens, the USSR, etc. to really have any right accusing others of ripping people off.
^^^^^^
Hey guys the thread was over like two posts in.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Warhammer stole from a whole lot of games. Then blended it. Mutilated it. Threw in a few of its own fingers. Blended some more. Mutilated some more.
And tada, you get warhammer!

[Tom_Violence]

Oh... Oh... :smalleek:

Ohhh yeah, I want me a massive Internet humpwad right over here. Doesn't matter anyhow, because as 'horrendous' and 'ohh, ohh, I'ma cry!' there is in it, the facts are sound and the snark is grand. I'm not going to be a *****-whipped debater. :smallamused:

So go suck a toe and debate it or shut it up. :smallwink:

Oh shh, and don't be so full of yourself. Being rude to people may well get them to stop debating with you, but don't then get confused and think that you've run them out of town with your debating skills. Your facts are invisible and your 'snark' would embarrass a teenager. This be no formal debate; its more of a friendly discussion, and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding your tone unsuitable. So go sniff a banana or hop it. :smallamused: :smallsmile: :smallconfused: Or at least work on the sarcasm a little - its currently cringe-worthy.

Anyway...


Actually, I think I wil. Most western style millitary officer uniforms follow the Sash and Medals style. And then they put a cape on it, whoop-de-do. You could say that Every single superhero costume is copying off each other because they are all skintight latex and capes.
Besides, The only things that were consistant about a commisar's uniform is the coat and the hat. Actually, in one of the Guants Ghost's books, a Commisar takes off their coat and hat and is more or less indistinguishable from a standard trooper. If you notice, the SC2 picture is wearing neither a coat NOR a hat.

I dunno. Maybe. I'm still a little unconvinced. For me there's just something so distinctly Soviet/Communist about both, due to the abundance of gold and whatnot, etc., that the connection is so strong in my mind. I admit, I'm no military expert, so perhaps over the entireity of military uniforms this isn't really so surprising. But for me, looking at the art (and only the art - I no quite literally bugger all about the backstory and whatnot, so I consider myself something of a 'Man On The Street' in this, which is likely who most of the promotional art is to be aimed at, surely?) a hefty degree of borrowing certainly does seem to have taken place. And to me, that's kinda what matters. I can't shake the feeling that Blizzard seem to be piggybacking on the work done by Games Workshop, and understandably since Games Workshop seem to have invested no shortage of time and money into their art department.

Everyone nicking things from everyone else is certainly to be expected in a genre as wide and diffuse as 'Science Fiction', at least in terms of such things as background, plot, metaphysics, etc. But swiping the artstyle, which is something that has made Games Workshop so very distinctive in my mind, seems more than a little cheap.

[BRC]

I dunno. Maybe. I'm still a little unconvinced. For me there's just something so distinctly Soviet/Communist about both, due to the abundance of gold and whatnot, etc., that the connection is so strong in my mind. I admit, I'm no military expert, so perhaps over the entireity of military uniforms this isn't really so surprising. But for me, looking at the art (and only the art - I no quite literally bugger all about the backstory and whatnot, so I consider myself something of a 'Man On The Street' in this, which is likely who most of the promotional art is to be aimed at, surely?) a hefty degree of borrowing certainly does seem to have taken place. And to me, that's kinda what matters. I can't shake the feeling that Blizzard seem to be piggybacking on the work done by Games Workshop, and understandably since Games Workshop seem to have invested no shortage of time and money into their art department.

Everyone nicking things from everyone else is certainly to be expected in a genre as wide and diffuse as 'Science Fiction', at least in terms of such things as background, plot, metaphysics, etc. But swiping the artstyle, which is something that has made Games Workshop so very distinctive in my mind, seems more than a little cheap.
Gold is used pretty much everwhere to show power. I'll give you that Blizzard may have piggybacked some of their art, but for the example you showed I find it much easier to believe that Blizz looked at real world millitary uniforms for inspiration rather than "Hmm, Ya know, GW has something cool going with thier commisars, let's use that!".

Also, the whole Soviet theme is pretty common visually for sci-fi empires.

I think Blizz took more stuff from GW for Warcraft than for Starcraft. Yes, the Zerg are heavily inspiried by the Tyranids, but otherwise there isn't that much. This thread has already discussed why that is, but it looks like a nitpick argument. One side will point out every miniscule similarity between the two, and the other side will point out every miniscule difference.

[Tom_Violence]

Gold is used pretty much everwhere to show power. I'll give you that Blizzard may have piggybacked some of their art, but for the example you showed I find it much easier to believe that Blizz looked at real world millitary uniforms for inspiration rather than "Hmm, Ya know, GW has something cool going with thier commisars, let's use that!".

Also, the whole Soviet theme is pretty common visually for sci-fi empires.

I think Blizz took more stuff from GW for Warcraft than for Starcraft. Yes, the Zerg are heavily inspiried by the Tyranids, but otherwise there isn't that much. This thread has already discussed why that is, but it looks like a nitpick argument. One side will point out every miniscule similarity between the two, and the other side will point out every miniscule difference.

True and true. I'm not too well versed on my scifi literature, but I dare say I can imagine the Soviet theme being a very strong one, particularly for societies that are presumably meant to be somewhat dystopian.

I definitely agree on the Warcraft bit. I think with that its practically got to the stage where I can't tell who's intellectual property is who's anymore.

[Mr. Friendly]

Tyranid:

Incept date: 1980s
Full realization: 1993

Zerg:
Incept date: 1998

Now, admittedly the 3rd Edition Tyranid Codex came out in 1998, I can't find a specific publication date for either the Codex or Starcraft, though I'd say that given the amount of development required for both, it is unlikely that GW ripped off Starcraft (vis`a`vis Ravener/Hydrolisks) and far more likely that they both ripped off the Brood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_%28comics%29)from Marvel.

Hilariously, the SEE ALSO section of Brood references Tyranids, Zerg and Aliens.

[Terraoblivion]

Also i wouldn't exactly say that the uniform from Starcraft II is all that Soviet-inspired. In fact it looks more like a 19th century Prussian or Austrian dress uniform to me than anything from the 20th century, although a Prussian or Austrian dress uniform with a long cloak added, but that is because adding cloaks to everything is popular these days. In fact the single thing it reminds me the most of is a navy blue version of the Prince's uniform in Disney's Cinderella and that is definitely meant to look Austrian.

Also beyond being navy blue, having medals and the cloak what is similar between the two uniforms? I have a hard time seeing it to be honest and it is not like navy blue and medals are unusual things for uniforms and cloaks are a typical symbol of power in modern fantasy and science fiction. Really of all the evidence for Blizzard ripping off Games Workshop that one is the one i find weakest of the bunch and given how unconvincing the rest are that is quite bad.

[Tom_Violence]

Tyranid:

Incept date: 1980s
Full realization: 1993

Zerg:
Incept date: 1998

Now, admittedly the 3rd Edition Tyranid Codex came out in 1998, I can't find a specific publication date for either the Codex or Starcraft, though I'd say that given the amount of development required for both, it is unlikely that GW ripped off Starcraft (vis`a`vis Ravener/Hydrolisks) and far more likely that they both ripped off the Brood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_%28comics%29)from Marvel.

Hilariously, the SEE ALSO section of Brood references Tyranids, Zerg and Aliens.

Thankfully, Alien came out in '79. :smallwink:

[Breltar]

Also i wouldn't exactly say that the uniform from Starcraft II is all that Soviet-inspired. In fact it looks more like a 19th century Prussian or Austrian dress uniform to me than anything from the 20th century, although a Prussian or Austrian dress uniform with a long cloak added, but that is because adding cloaks to everything is popular these days. In fact the single thing it reminds me the most of is a navy blue version of the Prince's uniform in Disney's Cinderella and that is definitely meant to look Austrian.

Also beyond being navy blue, having medals and the cloak what is similar between the two uniforms? I have a hard time seeing it to be honest and it is not like navy blue and medals are unusual things for uniforms and cloaks are a typical symbol of power in modern fantasy and science fiction. Really of all the evidence for Blizzard ripping off Games Workshop that one is the one i find weakest of the bunch and given how unconvincing the rest are that is quite bad.

I think it comes down more to the fact that both ripped off the Starship Troopers novel than anything, though the art is similar. GW does tend to do things first and Blizzard does seem to have few original ideas.

[Mr. Friendly]

Thankfully, Alien came out in '79. :smallwink:

Yes, but the colonial/hive nature of the xenomorph wasn't expanded upon until Aliens, which came out in '86, a short 4 years after The Brood came into existence and were fully developed into the hive race we know them as now.

The original Alien never discussed the xenomorph having a stinging tail, however the Brood do have a stinging tail and in Aliens (at least the screenplay and novel) they do have stinging tails.

Of course a general argument could be made that these creatures (xenomorphs, Tyranids and Zerg) are just derivative of man's inner fear of wasps, hornets and other creepy crawly critters.

[Kacaier]

Check out Codex: Tyranids, 2nd edition and Codex: Tyranids, 3rd edition. The difference between the two are innumerable. You can also check the dates of the two codices as well as StarCraft's release date.

[Tom_Violence]

Yes, but the colonial/hive nature of the xenomorph wasn't expanded upon until Aliens, which came out in '86, a short 4 years after The Brood came into existence and were fully developed into the hive race we know them as now.

The original Alien never discussed the xenomorph having a stinging tail, however the Brood do have a stinging tail and in Aliens (at least the screenplay and novel) they do have stinging tails.

Of course a general argument could be made that these creatures (xenomorphs, Tyranids and Zerg) are just derivative of man's inner fear of wasps, hornets and other creepy crawly critters.

Interesting. According to the Wiki page, the creator of The Brood says they were inspired by Alien, yet indeed, as you say, the hive mind was in The Brood first, then Aliens second. So does it count as stealing if someone nicks your thing, makes up into something bigger and better, and then you swipe it right back again? Hmm.. Someone find me a copyright lawyer, stat!

[konfeta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_%28comics%29

Kacaier, spend less time being angry and righteous and learn to read posts. The link for the Brood was provided a few posts back and you seemingly didn't even read that post? Despite quoting it?

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Protoss are about 3 years older than the Tau. So that connection isn't really there. I see more of a Starship Troopers theme to SC. You have the Bugs, The Marines, and the Skinnies. However the Skinnies weren't really fleshed out. As I recall, all you read about is a single raid against a Skinny city in the begining of the book and a few references to them as co-belligerents and later allies of the bugs.

Of course there were a lot of homages and influences from Aliens. In fact the dropship uses actual lines from the movie.

Now Warcraft on the other hand, had a very strong influence from Warhammer Fantasy. It had standard extra fantasy elements like Water Elementals and such. However the main base was still Bretonia vs Greenskins.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Be nice in here and don't try to moderate each other. If someone gets out of line, report them. Oh, and did I mention to be nice?

[LordVader]

I'm not seeing Brood/Zerg as being a greater connection than Tyranids/Zerg.
The fact remains that only Zerg are the real connection, however. Terrans are more like Starship Troopers (and especially Battlestar Galactica) Terrans as a whole. Protoss are kinda out there as well. The real Warhammer influence comes into play in WHFB, and this is indisputable. Hell, they even changed the names of some of the units in Frozen Throne! (Dwarven Gyrocopter--->Flying Machine, anyone?) I'm convinced they did this to avoid any GW concern or nitpicking.

[GolemsVoice]

On the uniforms: I think there are two differences here.
The first one is the function of the unit. Commissars are there to inspire fear. When an imperial soldiers thinks about running, and he sees a commissar, easily recognisably by the hat, the gold and the sword, let alone his threatening and encouraging shouting, he is supposed to thiink "Uh, oh, the enemy may rip me to pieces, but if I flee, the commissar shure will."
While I don't know about that other guy, the SC guy, he seems to be an admiral or somesuch. When people see him, they are supposed to be impressed by the uniform and the gold, and maybe also intimidated by the medals. He is, as well as the commissar, there to show authority and inspire loyalty, though on a complete different level.
The second difference comes up through the first. While the commissar's unifrom should look threatening, impressing and easily recognicable, the SC guy's uniform is more representative, to bimpress and show off.
If you look at pictures from the period around World War 1, the practice of making bright, impressive, and, admittedly, sometimes ridiculous uniforms for leaders who are not supposed to be in combat was farily common. Think of the British admirals, or, prime example, Wilhelm II., King of Prussia and, what, Emperor (Kaiser) of the German Reich. He was the one who coined the phrase "Everyday is carneval" ("Alle Tage Maskenball"), because he liked those uniforms that much.

[Killersquid]

Its not like drawing inspiration from GW is a bad thing. WC and SC both do, and even from D&D (Silver(y)moon, anyone?)

[konfeta]

He isn't an officer. He is the son of Arcturus Mengsk, as I understand he will be a main character in SC2.

[Kacaier]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_%28comics%29

Kacaier, spend less time being angry and righteous and learn to read posts. The link for the Brood was provided a few posts back and you seemingly didn't even read that post? Despite quoting it?
Only because it didn't apply in what i was saying.

[Mr. Scaly]

He isn't an officer. He is the son of Arcturus Mengsk, as I understand he will be a main character in SC2.

And he's an archaeologist too. I think he specialises in Protoss artifacts but I could be wrong. I think the medals and decorations are honourary.

[The Extinguisher]

9. One uses spaceships (hiveships), the other does not.


This is bugging me. The Zerg do have spaceships. How else do they get to planets they haven't assimilated? I believe the Overlords or something similar function has their interplanetary travel.

[Mr. Scaly]

This is bugging me. The Zerg do have spaceships. How else do they get to planets they haven't assimilated? I believe the Overlords or something similar function has their interplanetary travel.

If I remember correctly way back when the zerg were still young they absorbed and assimilated a species of spacegoing creatures and thus gained the ability to travel in space. I'm pretty sure it's only for certain species though.

[konfeta]

They use thingamajick travel (overmind makes big holes in space), and just fly around in one big swarm of flyer units with ground units in the overlords.

*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KDvI2UEvUo&feature=related

It's called hyperspace.

[Haruspex]

Who knows? Maybe a Blizzard employee played WH40K when they were making Starcraft. Maybe a GW employee played Starcraft and was inspired (when making the later editions of 40K that is).

The thing is, both games involve "Space War", and there's a limited number of ways that can be portrayed. Military power armor if I recall was first done by Starship Troopers. Makes a lot of sense if you're fighting in environments unsuited for human habitation.

Zergs and Tyranids do seem similar, now that I think of it. Which may be why Tyranids never made it to Dawn Of War. But I digress. How do Zerg reproduce by the way? In the game they just pop out of buildings in the standard RTS style so that didn't help.

[Oslecamo]

Zergs and Tyranids do seem similar, now that I think of it. Which may be why Tyranids never made it to Dawn Of War. But I digress. How do Zerg reproduce by the way? In the game they just pop out of buildings in the standard RTS style so that didn't help.

Wrong. Zergs don't simply pop out of buildings. You have the hive where there is a queen wich keeps spawning larvas in the ground every X seconds. Then you can order the larvas to mutate into whatever unit you need by feeding them enough resources. If there are multiple larvas spawned you can order all of the to mutate at the same time, providing you have enough resources, wich allows the zergs to quickly deploy forces of any kind.

[Bryn]

"Too similar to Starcraft to go in Dawn of War" is a nice theory, but the statement of the developers is that the Dawn of War engine is incapable of rendering the Tyranid swarms without massive slowdowns (which is kinda odd, since they let you play Imperial Guard and Orks, who can be equally swarm-y on the tabletop). Since Dawn of War II has a new engine, with any luck we'll see Tyranid goodness rendered in wonderful high detail in the next Dawn of War.

Apart from that, I'm with the camp of people who doesn't care whether or not Starcraft ripped off Dawn of War or not, because both are rather fun, in addition to what I've said earlier in the thread.

[Oslecamo]

"Too similar to Starcraft to go in Dawn of War" is a nice theory, but the statement of the developers is that the Dawn of War engine is incapable of rendering the Tyranid swarms without massive slowdowns (which is kinda odd, since they let you play Imperial Guard and Orks, who can be equally swarm-y on the tabletop).

Orks and guardsmen only have two legs and two arms and use only the arms to attack the enemy.

Tyrannids have lots of arms and they use all of them to attack, plus biting and stuff.

It's not a matter of the number of units. It's a matter of the complexity of each individual unit.

That, or the tyrannids would have really dull battle animations, and that's unaceptable in dawn of war.

[Mr. Friendly]

Honestly it isn't the Tyranids themselves that make them unusable in Dawn of War, it's their economy.

There is really no amount of sideways justification you can use to fairly or accurately put them in the DoW universe.

They don't need command points. They don't need energy.

You would have to write a completely new mechanic for them. You could I suppose use Orcs and their banners as a starting point, but it would be so... un Tyranid-ish.

The Tyranids would be fine in a single player campaign, as either the player or the computer. In online play though, there would be virtually no method of balancing them against the existing races.

This is due to the methodology of the Tyranid invasion.

[Revlid]

Honestly it isn't the Tyranids themselves that make them unusable in Dawn of War, it's their economy.

There is really no amount of sideways justification you can use to fairly or accurately put them in the DoW universe.

They don't need command points. They don't need energy.

You would have to write a completely new mechanic for them. You could I suppose use Orcs and their banners as a starting point, but it would be so... un Tyranid-ish.

The Tyranids would be fine in a single player campaign, as either the player or the computer. In online play though, there would be virtually no method of balancing them against the existing races.

This is due to the methodology of the Tyranid invasion.

Maybe you could use 'number of kills so far+X' as a population limit?

Or just note that Command Points represent the ability of the Tyranids to consume and convert nearby flora, fauna, and minerals - instead of Listening Posts, the area-of-effect of the Tyranid Spires that surround captured Command Points is increased, with a visual effect.

That makes them a nice opposite of the Necrons, actually - Necrons have only Power, Tyranids have only Requistion.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes, SC ripped off some stuff from 40k (most notably Zerg) and the Protoss and Terran are more like "this is a cool concept, we should do something like it" I.E. they took a basic idea (futuristic fascist/imperial, gothic/gritty societies) and (ancient psychic race of advanced aliens) and then made them their own way. The zerg are CLEARLY more than just inspired by Tyranids, but who can blame them, nids are awesome, and as someone else said, there's only so many ways to do "space bugs"

So yes, they did take some things from 40k, but they were original enough that it doesn't matter. A bunch of their material is clearly inspired by 40k, but they didn't just blatantly rip them off, and they went their own way with the, so it doesn't really matter.

[Solo]

Honestly it isn't the Tyranids themselves that make them unusable in Dawn of War, it's their economy.

There is really no amount of sideways justification you can use to fairly or accurately put them in the DoW universe.

They don't need command points. They don't need energy.

You would have to write a completely new mechanic for them. You could I suppose use Orcs and their banners as a starting point, but it would be so... un Tyranid-ish.

The Tyranids would be fine in a single player campaign, as either the player or the computer. In online play though, there would be virtually no method of balancing them against the existing races.

This is due to the methodology of the Tyranid invasion.

Plus, mission briefings would run like this:

"OM NOM NOM SPACE MARINES!"

"OM NOM NOM ORKS!"

"OM NOM NOM!"

[DemonicAngel]

Yes, SC ripped off some stuff from 40k (most notably Zerg) and the Protoss and Terran are more like "this is a cool concept, we should do something like it" I.E. they took a basic idea (futuristic fascist/imperial, gothic/gritty societies) and (ancient psychic race of advanced aliens) and then made them their own way. The zerg are CLEARLY more than just inspired by Tyranids, but who can blame them, nids are awesome, and as someone else said, there's only so many ways to do "space bugs"

So yes, they did take some things from 40k, but they were original enough that it doesn't matter. A bunch of their material is clearly inspired by 40k, but they didn't just blatantly rip them off, and they went their own way with the, so it doesn't really matter.

Well, that would be nice and all, if the zergs wouldn't be made before the nids.

[Haruspex]

Wrong. Zergs don't simply pop out of buildings. You have the hive where there is a queen wich keeps spawning larvas in the ground every X seconds. Then you can order the larvas to mutate into whatever unit you need by feeding them enough resources. If there are multiple larvas spawned you can order all of the to mutate at the same time, providing you have enough resources, wich allows the zergs to quickly deploy forces of any kind.

You're right, my mistake. I haven't played in a while. For the Tyranids (in comparison) that process happens off-site if I recall correctly, on their living ships. I'm not sure of the details, just that new bioforms can be made by assimilating genetic material. But Zerg can make new forms as well, right? Not sure how though.

DemonicAngel: Tyranids were made before Zerg. Starcraft in 1998, Tyranids were from the 80s.

[konfeta]

Well, that would be nice and all, if the zergs wouldn't be made before the nids.


While I vehemently oppose the idea that SC is anything more than inspired by WH40k (and the inspiration being fairly generic, common, fascist humans in Space and high tech aliens? Helloo? Science Fiction Literature? Who the hell says WH40k pioneered those 2 and everything that came after it using those was inspired by it?), you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranids#Gaming_and_Gaming_History

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_alpha

[The Extinguisher]

They use thingamajick travel (overmind makes big holes in space), and just fly around in one big swarm of flyer units with ground units in the overlords.

*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KDvI2UEvUo&feature=related

It's called hyperspace.

Nevermind then. I could have sworn they used spaceships, but oh well.

[Oslecamo]

Plus, mission briefings would run like this:

"OM NOM NOM SPACE MARINES!"

"OM NOM NOM ORKS!"

"OM NOM NOM!"

Well, it's not that diferent from the other races:

SM: KILL PURGE CLEAN (insert other race here)

Orks: WAGHHHHHHH

Chaos SM: SLAUGHTER MURDER MUAHAHAHAHA

Eldar: Eliminate(insert other race here)

IG: KILL(insert other race here) OR DIE TRYING!

Necrons: Bzzttt trrr screee nmnmnmn

Tau: BLAST (insert other race here) FOR THE GREATER GOOD!

[konfeta]

Yes it is. All other races say incredibly cool and hilarious things while they are at it.

Tyranids, do not.

[Oslecamo]

Yes it is. All other races say incredibly cool and hilarious things while they are at it.

Tyranids, do not.

As far as I remember, the necrons only make strange machine noises, even the lord.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

As far as I remember, the necrons only make strange machine noises, even the lord.

Well unless its binary or something I doubt it. They would speak a language they understand, if that sounds like machine noise to us... it would get translated.

And really you could have briefings for the Nids, it would just be like a "direct hivemind link" and you're a synaps creature, and it would basically just tell you what you're supposed to do. I mean, Nids' do have goals and strategies, they just involve more "swarm" mentality than human strategies.

[Oslecamo]

Well unless its binary or something I doubt it. They would speak a language they understand, if that sounds like machine noise to us... it would get translated.

And really you could have briefings for the Nids, it would just be like a "direct hivemind link" and you're a synaps creature, and it would basically just tell you what you're supposed to do. I mean, Nids' do have goals and strategies, they just involve more "swarm" mentality than human strategies.

No, no, they really only do machine noises in Dawn of War:Dark crusade, where the necron race was added. Kind of anoying, with all the other races having cool quotes, and playing the necrons means you won't hear a word from your forces the entire game.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

No, no, they really only do machine noises in Dawn of War:Dark crusade, where the necron race was added. Kind of anoying, with all the other races having cool quotes, and playing the necrons means you won't hear a word from your forces the entire game.

I know, but that doesn't mean it needs to be mutually exclusive for all games...

[hanzo66]

Not sure if this counts, but in Soulstorm the Necron Lord actually speaks a bit.

[Mr. Friendly]

In DoW the Necrons make machine noises and they have a "Pariah" who acts as a mouthpiece for mission intros.

In 40k they Necrons don't speak.

The C'tan will speak - okay; the Deceiver speaks. Nightbringer, not so much.

Necrons as a whole however don't speak because they don't need to. Lords silently relay orders to Warriors and Immortals and the Necron army marches silently in battle formations that they marched millions of years ago.

They have no souls, no personalities and no desire to do anything except wipe out everyone else.

Tyranids on the other hand *could* have speaking units in the form of genestealer cults. They seem to have cut them from the current edition of the Codex, but in olden days they could have Imperial Guard units corrupted by the genestealers and a few other speaking units.

[dworkin]

I find the silent necrons in DOW a bit of a relief from the constant, if amusing chatter of the other armies. Sometimes you just want cold mechanical slaughter. The other side can scream.

As for Blizzard vs GW. Yes, they are drawing from common sources, including each other.

[Deadmeat.GW]

DemonicAngel: Tyranids were made before Zerg. Starcraft in 1998, Tyranids were from the 80s.

Artwork from Jess Goodwin shows the first recogniseable Tyranids in early eighties, GW just did not have a way to make the stuff he drew in a suitable fashion.

The plastic Tyranid warriors with Boneswords and such were made out of plastic by another company on directions from GW, the tech was at the time not available in-house.

Given that if everything had worked out as intended Blizzard and GW would have worked together on Warcraft I am no surprised if they borrowed some ideas from GW nor am I surprised GW borrowed ideas of them later on.
The base premises are very closely linked for both companies and if you are going to use inspiration from an outside source lets go for the good ones :).

[Soniku]

As for my opinion on the matter, starcraft may well have been inspired by 40k, but aside from the appearence of a select few Zerg units and the bulky armour marines/psychic arrogent aliens/xenomorph hive (all three of which could easily have been thought up indepandantly, but were likely inspired in some ways) there are few identical things in the games.

As for the Tau being anime... I don't know, I personally see them a lot closer to a number of real world countries in their style. Not in technology of course, but I have to admit almost every piece of artwork depicting Tau reminds me strongly of wartime posters of countries such as Korea. The poses, the colours, it's all quite suprisingly similar.

[konfeta]

Of course. They are the Space Commies!

*Opens floodgate of angry Tau fans telling me I got it wrong*