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View Full Version : Gestalt Barbarian/Druid = Grapple?



Frosty
2008-06-04, 02:48 PM
Rules are as follows: I must take Barbarian on one side of my gestalt class. The other side can be anything that has 3/4 BAB or better and no Battle Sorcerer I believe. ECL is 8, and I have to start out as the Old age category (is that -2 to all my physical stats and +2 to all my mental stats? I'll say I took Power Attack back when my strength was 13).

The stats I rolled are pretty mediocre (13 12 10 12 16 9), equivalent to a 26 pt-buy, so I immediately thought of going straight druid on the other side. By taking the Bear Totem from Complete Champion I should be able to get +4 to grapple rolls (do I get Improved Grapple for free as well?). Combined with turning into a humongous bear, I can probably go wrestle dragons or something.

Still, is this a decent route to go as a gestalt? I guess I can get Lion Totem instead and go around pouncing, but that is very much overdone...

Draz74
2008-06-04, 02:55 PM
Overall idea sounds decent. You have enough restrictions on you that I'd say you're quite justified in abusing the Druid's SAD cheese. :smallcool:

One word of warning: Old age means -3 physical, +2 mental scores.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 03:00 PM
Overall idea sounds decent. You have enough restrictions on you that I'd say you're quite justified in abusing the Druid's SAD cheese. :smallcool:

One word of warning: Old age means -3 physical, +2 mental scores.

Holy hell my HP is going to suck.

Human Paragon 3
2008-06-04, 03:00 PM
PhB II wild shape variant will serve you well. You'll get enormous grapple bonuses from increased STR and size, plus bear totem barbarian bonuses (which eventually become +8, plus rage). Your one weak area is going to be armor class, so make sure you either start those grapples fast or grab some defensive magic or items. A friend of mine did exactly this to great effect.

EDIT: Read your whole post, and you're in a little more trouble than I thought. Wild Shape Ranger into Master of Many forms on one side, with Barbarian or Fighter on the other would be my recomendation. Yup. Bear Totem Barb//Wild Shape Ranger/Master of many forms. Dump all your mental stats and get that 16 in CON.

FinalJustice
2008-06-04, 03:04 PM
Sounds solid, and you can get one of those cool Bite of Were*animal* on SpC for more str.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 03:08 PM
Well, I need an item of +4 Con, STAT! And I need a Wilding Clasp to go with it I think. Should I really even worry about AC? I guess a Dragonhide Chain Shirt can't hurt right?

Human Paragon 3
2008-06-04, 03:11 PM
Rage will help your CON somewhat. AC cannot be ignored though, especially with lower HP. Level apropriate challenges could easily drop you when you move in for the grapple and roll a 1 for example. Your enemy will occasionally break the grapple and slam you.

Master of Many Forms will give you an enmormous boost to AC if you choose forms with high natural armor.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 03:34 PM
Is MoMF really that good? I've never used itbefore. What does it offer me over the Druid? And I heard it was missing a very important piece of errata...it stacks with Druid for wildsape purposes right?

I was allowed a re-roll (and had to keep the 2nd set of stats) and it turned out...better.

7 11 12 14 16 18

Admiral Squish
2008-06-04, 03:50 PM
Is MoMF really that good? I've never used itbefore. What does it offer me over the Druid? And I heard it was missing a very important piece of errata...it stacks with Druid for wildsape purposes right?

MoMF is ridiculous in wildshape. Ten levels long, and it lets you expand your wildshape into Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Fey, Vermin, Abberation, Plant, Ooze, Elemental, and Dragon, and lets you run the gamut from diminutive to gargantuan. Plus, each level grants you another daily use of wildshape. It also speeds up the change to a move action, and grants you the extraordinary abilities of the form you take.

At the level you speak of, starting the PrC at fifth, You'd be wildshaping as a move action, wildshaping to Large, and any Humanoid, Giant, or Monstrous Humanoid. Plus, you can talk when wildshaped.

The main problem with it is no casting progression, but you're focusing on melee, anyway.

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-04, 03:50 PM
Barbarian/Psychic Warrior could be really fun if you can use Psionics. Probably one of the best ways to be a melee type and still manage to kick ass.

The Psionic Lions Charge will let you full attack on a charge without having to go lion totem. In addition to being good at fighting, there's also lots of really styling powers too. (Like growing claws ^_^)

It's a class that has excellent Synergy with other Melee classes.


Mind you, a bear wrestling dragons does some pretty awesome too. But just thought I'd point out another option.


edit: Actually, I didn't realize this at first but the reason you're going with Druid is probably because of the awful physical stats.

sonofzeal
2008-06-04, 03:56 PM
Well, I need an item of +4 Con, STAT! And I need a Wilding Clasp to go with it I think. Should I really even worry about AC? I guess a Dragonhide Chain Shirt can't hurt right?
I'd grab "Improved Toughness" too, it may save your life.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 04:11 PM
Barbarian/Psychic Warrior could be really fun if you can use Psionics. Probably one of the best ways to be a melee type and still manage to kick ass.

The Psionic Lions Charge will let you full attack on a charge without having to go lion totem. In addition to being good at fighting, there's also lots of really styling powers too. (Like growing claws ^_^)

It's a class that has excellent Synergy with other Melee classes.


Mind you, a bear wrestling dragons does some pretty awesome too. But just thought I'd point out another option.


edit: Actually, I didn't realize this at first but the reason you're going with Druid is probably because of the awful physical stats.

Well, I rerolled my stats and got 12 14 16 18 7 11 instead now. physical stats will still suck due to Old age, which is why I plan on sticking with something that Wildshapes. With this array, I can be decent at casting and not be completely screwed on health.

Maybe like this? 14 (11) str, 11 (8) dex, 16 (13) con, 11 (13) int, 18 (20) wis, 7 (9) cha

11 8 13 13 20 9

I wonder what my Animal Companion should be.

Human Paragon 3
2008-06-04, 04:12 PM
Admiral Squish is correct. MoMF rocks. How cheesy you get with it is up to you and your playgroup, but it can be as powerful as you need it to be. With those stats, I'd put the 18 in CON and the 16 in WIS for saves and spellcasting if you go druid instead of WS ranger.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 04:17 PM
I might do that. Now, how do I pump my AC so I'm not helpless?

Holocron Coder
2008-06-04, 04:20 PM
If the SRD can be believed...



With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative.

...

At middle age, -1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At old age, -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At venerable age, -3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.


...so, yeah, -3 to Physical, +2 to Mental. Don't go too close to Venerable :smallwink:

Chronos
2008-06-04, 04:51 PM
Don't go too close to VenerableIdeally, you want to hit Venerable age the day after you hit level 15. Timeless Body means a free boost to all of your mental stats, with no drawback.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-04, 05:13 PM
Well, I rerolled my stats and got 12 14 16 18 7 11 instead now. physical stats will still suck due to Old age, which is why I plan on sticking with something that Wildshapes. With this array, I can be decent at casting and not be completely screwed on health.

Maybe like this? 14 (11) str, 11 (8) dex, 16 (13) con, 11 (13) int, 18 (20) wis, 7 (9) cha

11 8 13 13 20 9

I wonder what my Animal Companion should be.

Let's see... pure Barbarian//Druid will do just fine - great, even, as at 8th, you get Large Wildshape. With that array, I'd suggest putting the 18 in Con (15), and playing a Dwarf or Gnome so that it's up to something reasonable (17). Next highest (16) to Wis (for an 18). Stay Wildshaped full-time (or nearly so), and you can ignore Strength and Dex (you get them from Wildshape - these are where you put your 7 and 11). That leaves you with the 12 in Charisma (becomes 14 with a Gnome, 12 with a Dwarf) and the 14 (becomes 16) in Int.

Your build isn't particularly difficult - take Natural Spell at 6th, stay wildshaped full-time, otherwise. If you plan on grappling, take Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st and Improved Grapple at 3rd. Raging Bear... nasty.

Oh, and you might think of splashing in a level or two of Monk - for Wis to AC while Wildshaped.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 05:18 PM
Yeah...but losing Large Wildshape is not something I'd like to do. Besides, I can wear armor in wildshape.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-04, 05:24 PM
Go Black Blood Cultist on the barbarian side to get some nice grapple bonuses, improved natural attacks, and rend, all usable in a grapple at no penalty.

Eldariel
2008-06-04, 10:35 PM
It's worth noting that your HP will be based on d12s, so with 14 Con, your HP will be the same as that of 18 Con Druid, so I think you'll be just fine.

Are you sure you want to be Old? Those stats really don't work well with age modifiers (since you have 4 even and 2 odd numbers), and with an 18 in there, it just doesn't seem like a good idea. If you must, 18 to Wis (so you'll benefit some of the Old Age), 16 to Con with a potential level increase too (since too low HP sucks, 14 is a good guideline for Con), rest to mentals and maybe Dex, dumping Str. That way you'll be a really good monkey and since you'll be spending your life in wildshape anyways, you'll just have stupid high stats overall.

Frosty
2008-06-04, 11:00 PM
I have to be Old or Venerable. It's in the game description.

Eldariel
2008-06-04, 11:08 PM
Ok, Old works. Stats:

S / D / C / I / W / C
12 11 16 14 18 7

Alternatively, if you're convinced that you won't have to spend too much time out of Wildshape, you can replace S and C and be a damn good diplomat and have nutty Wild Empathy.

4th increase should go to Constitution. That gives you:
9/8/14/16/20/9

Frosty
2008-06-04, 11:49 PM
It's a PbP game. I'd like to be able to interact with the world. I'll spend a turn wildshaping in combat. Isn't there a feat to let me wildshape faster?

Eldariel
2008-06-05, 12:01 AM
Through Rary's Telepathic Bond (Permanencied) you could still talk with your pals, and you get along fine in the wilderness. City, of course, is a different story. I couldn't unfortunately find any Swift Wildshape-feats (I'm sure there is one, I just couldn't locate it) on a quick scan through the books, although Shapeshift (PHBII ACF) is a Swift Action. It's quite bad though, so I'd suggest against it (mostly, it imposes MAD).

Also, if you're going to roll initiative in your normal form, you'll probably want to switch Dex and Int around.

Frosty
2008-06-05, 01:39 AM
We're starting at level 8, with no full arcane casters. Rary's bond ain't happening. We're a band of old barbarians out on one last adventure. Magic is sort of limited. Like I siad, interaction with NPCs will be a focus and a good source of comedy, so I will not be spending all day wildshaped.

Nebo_
2008-06-05, 01:48 AM
We're starting at level 8, with no full arcane casters. Rary's bond ain't happening. We're a band of old barbarians out on one last adventure. Magic is sort of limited. Like I siad, interaction with NPCs will be a focus and a good source of comedy, so I will not be spending all day wildshaped.

Sounds like your DM just read The Last Hero.

Adumbration
2008-06-05, 01:50 AM
We're starting at level 8, with no full arcane casters. Rary's bond ain't happening. We're a band of old barbarians out on one last adventure. Magic is sort of limited. Like I siad, interaction with NPCs will be a focus and a good source of comedy, so I will not be spending all day wildshaped.

Unless you want to be the old "bearhugger". And if you go with MoMF, you can speak while wildshaped.

Eldariel
2008-06-05, 02:04 AM
We're starting at level 8, with no full arcane casters. Rary's bond ain't happening. We're a band of old barbarians out on one last adventure. Magic is sort of limited. Like I siad, interaction with NPCs will be a focus and a good source of comedy, so I will not be spending all day wildshaped.

You could get it cast from an outside source. But that's besides the point; if you want to spend time in your normal form, toss 14 into Dex and 12 into Int. That way you'll be better off in terms of Initiative and won't die as easily turn 0, especially with your fine D12 + 14 Con HP.

Admiral Squish
2008-06-05, 02:31 AM
It's a PbP game. I'd like to be able to interact with the world. I'll spend a turn wildshaping in combat. Isn't there a feat to let me wildshape faster?

Two useful things: MoMF makes you capable of speaking in any wildshape form at first level, and at third, speeds your wildshape to a move action.

Frosty
2008-06-05, 09:20 AM
Sounds like your DM just read The Last Hero.

That is, in fact, the name of our campaign.

Adumbration
2008-06-05, 09:33 AM
There's also a magic item in CChampion that let's you wildshape as a swift action. It's called the Mantle of the Beast, and it costs 18 000 gps. It also gives +1 to attack and damage rolls with natural attacks.

Frosty
2008-06-05, 10:12 AM
Ooh me like. Know what page it's on?

Adumbration
2008-06-05, 11:00 AM
Page 140, I think.