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_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-04, 06:46 PM
Hi, I'm going to be playing a Dragonfire adept in an upcoming game.

My party members are a Human Dread Necromancer, an Orc Barbarian, and an Extaminaar Archivist.

I like to play a blasty-battlefield controller and I have just about every book available.

@V: How is the Dragonfire Adept overpowered?:smallconfused:

The Necroswanso
2008-06-04, 06:54 PM
Well, you're a Dragonfire Adept, you're already blasty battlefield control. Not to mention completely overpowered XD.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-04, 06:56 PM
Well, you're a Dragonfire Adept, you're already blasty battlefield control. Not to mention completely overpowered XD.

:smallconfused:

Dragonfire adept?

Reel On, Love
2008-06-04, 07:02 PM
Hi, I'm going to be playing a Dragonfire adept in an upcoming game.

My party members are a Human Dread Necromancer, an Orc Barbarian, and an Extaminaar Archivist.

I like to play a blasty-battlefield controller and I have just about every book available.

@V: How is the Dragonfire Adept overpowered?:smallconfused:

Let me help you out, son. Don't listen to them folks pushin' that PrC stuff--it'll mess you up bad. You just wanna stay on the straight and narrow. Dragonfire Adept 20. I got your back. You want feats? I got feats. Check out this baby right here--Entangling Exhalation, fresh outta Races of the Dragon. Seen what this thing can do? You take it, son.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-04, 07:13 PM
Check out this baby right here--Entangling Exhalation, fresh outta Races of the Dragon. Seen what this thing can do? You take it, son.

First Feat I took (other than tomb-tainted Soul, DN can heal me)

dyslexicfaser
2008-06-04, 11:14 PM
If they allow Dragonlance Campaign material, there's a pair of feats whose names escape me at the moment (prereq of Flyby Attack) that can decimate armies of mooks from the air.

You get to take a double move and use your breath weapon at the same time, as long as you move in a straight line, and the other lets you lay down your cone breath weapon for a good long ways, turning you into an army-killer.

Burley
2008-06-05, 10:26 AM
Woah woah woah. Entangling Exhalation has, as a prerequisite, "breath weapon with a recharge time," does it not? I think it does, just like all the draconomicon breath weapon feats. And, just like all those feats, you can't apply them to your Dragonfire Adept breath weapon, which lacks a recharge time.

marjan
2008-06-05, 10:36 AM
Woah woah woah. Entangling Exhalation has, as a prerequisite, "breath weapon with a recharge time," does it not?

Nope. Just dragonblood subtype and breath weapon.

sombrastewart
2008-06-05, 11:27 AM
Woah woah woah. Entangling Exhalation has, as a prerequisite, "breath weapon with a recharge time," does it not? I think it does, just like all the draconomicon breath weapon feats. And, just like all those feats, you can't apply them to your Dragonfire Adept breath weapon, which lacks a recharge time.

Metabreath feats have that requirement, Entangling Exhalation does not. EE is what makes DFAs just absurdly good. :)

puppyavenger
2008-06-05, 11:32 AM
Well, you're a Dragonfire Adept, you're already blasty battlefield control. Not to mention completely overpowered XD.

but, but its a warlock...:smallfrown:

Burley
2008-06-05, 11:58 AM
Woah. Dragonfire Adepts are not Warlocks. Fluff aside, they rely on completely different stats. Warlocks have a lot of sneaky invocations, and DFAs have a lot more field control invocations. DFAs and Warlocks can both Detect Magic at-will, but the DFA Identifies it and the Warlock Dispells it. Warlocks are meant to help out or fill in specific party roles. DFAs are meant to help the entire party. Warlock Invocations are pretty self-serving, while DFAs have actual buffs.
Heck, Warlocks make attack rolls. As a DFA, I once spent an entire session, with three combat encounters, and only rolled my d20 for a couple fort saves and a UMD check.

Mr. Friendly
2008-06-05, 12:14 PM
Woah. Dragonfire Adepts are not Warlocks. Fluff aside, they rely on completely different stats. Warlocks have a lot of sneaky invocations, and DFAs have a lot more field control invocations. DFAs and Warlocks can both Detect Magic at-will, but the DFA Identifies it and the Warlock Dispells it. Warlocks are meant to help out or fill in specific party roles. DFAs are meant to help the entire party. Warlock Invocations are pretty self-serving, while DFAs have actual buffs.
Heck, Warlocks make attack rolls. As a DFA, I once spent an entire session, with three combat encounters, and only rolled my d20 for a couple fort saves and a UMD check.

Right. In 4e terms the Warlock is a Striker and the DFA is a Leader or Controller.

:smallbiggrin:

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-05, 02:15 PM
Woah woah woah. Entangling Exhalation has, as a prerequisite, "breath weapon with a recharge time," does it not? I think it does, just like all the draconomicon breath weapon feats. And, just like all those feats, you can't apply them to your Dragonfire Adept breath weapon, which lacks a recharge time.

:smallconfused:

I thought that all breath weapons usable more than once per day had recharge.

AmberVael
2008-06-05, 02:19 PM
Not the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. You can use it every round- over and over and over...
Then again, it isn't exactly awe inspiring in terms of what it can do.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-05, 02:27 PM
That changes my entire build design. I'd better tell my DM.

Thrawn183
2008-06-05, 02:34 PM
Endurance and Steadfast Determination.

Pump your Con for everything you've got.

I'm playing a 13th level DfA right now and we just went up against a Beholder. Absolutely hilarious, I could only fail the Will saves on a 1 and I auto succeeded on the Fort saves thanks to Steadfast Determination.

Also, look at the invocations you plan to use and figure out if you are going to use any of them in combat. If not, Arcane Spell Failure is no longer important to you. You're a guy with Arcane abilities that runs around in Fullplate!

(My character is a gnome in fullplate with permanent reduce person on him, soooo much fun)

Burley
2008-06-05, 02:55 PM
Your breath weapon, like the Eldritch Blast, has a somatic component, too. (Doesn't it? I don't have m' books...)
Anything arcane, be it a spell or spell-like ability, that has a somatic component suffers from arcane spell failure.

mabriss lethe
2008-06-05, 03:12 PM
Your breath weapon, like the Eldritch Blast, has a somatic component, too. (Doesn't it? I don't have m' books...)
Anything arcane, be it a spell or spell-like ability, that has a somatic component suffers from arcane spell failure.

Don't quote me on this, since I don't have ready access to the book, but I think the DFA's breath weapon is a supernatural ability, not spell-like.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-05, 03:12 PM
Nope, It's supernatural. No components, AoO's, or SR.:smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Ack! Ninja'd

Bearonet
2008-06-05, 03:32 PM
I can answer this, having just played a DFA. :)
Entangling Exhalation is a "breath channeling feat", not a "metabreath feat". It's metabreath feats that require a breath weapon rechargeable in rounds.

Don't neglect your Charisma, it applies to the save vs. the Frightful Presence invocation and it helps your UMD score too.

Don't pass up the Chilling Fog invocation when you can take it, it makes the class by itself, at those levels.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-06-05, 03:38 PM
My race is Forest Gnome, and my Ability scores are:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 20
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

We are using 40 point buy

Burley
2008-06-05, 03:56 PM
I'm gonna check when I get home and edit this post, but I'm 95% positive that it is a spell-like ability, not supernatural. I tried to use that feat that turns spell-like into supernatural so that I could ignore spell resistance, but it wouldn't work. I'mma check, though. See back here soon.

marjan
2008-06-05, 04:38 PM
I'm gonna check when I get home and edit this post, but I'm 95% positive that it is a spell-like ability, not supernatural. I tried to use that feat that turns spell-like into supernatural so that I could ignore spell resistance, but it wouldn't work. I'mma check, though. See back here soon.

It's labeled as Su (as are all breath weapons).

Draz74
2008-06-05, 04:48 PM
DFA is powerful, but not overpowered (depending on the campaign). If you do end up feeling the need to nerf yourself, which I doubt, you can easily do so by just not taking the Entangling Exhalation feat (much like a Druid not taking Natural Spell).

There's one other obvious "must-have" DFA feat: Ability Focus (breath weapon). It applies to all your different breath effects!

After that, I normally go mostly for Extra Invocation feats myself. But that's a personal choice. Consider Flyby Attack, too.

I agree with Reel On, Love: Don't bother with any PrCs.

The lack of a recharge time shouldn't change your build much unless you were planning on a lot of Metabreath feats (which Entangling Exhalation is indeed not).

In 4e terms a DFA is definitely a Controller, not a Leader.

DFA and Warlock do indeed have important differences -- and the DFA is indeed much more team-oriented than the Warlock is one of those main differences -- but some of the other stuff wasn't quite right. DFAs are just as competent as Warlocks at Dispelling -- they get both of the Warlock's same Dispel-based Invocations.

Steadfast Determination is an interesting idea.

Burley, you can check the label on the breath weapon here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2). It's [Su], just like all breath weapons. The DFA's breath weapon and Invocations are separate abilities, even though they're both at-will. The Invocations are indeed [Sp] and suffer Arcane Spell Failure. An interesting DFA build is to just ignore any combat Invocations, concentrating instead on 24-Hour Buff Invocations, and wear heavy armor, and just not care about Arcane Spell Failure. It's a nice idea, but it does mean you miss out on some cool Invocations.

Thrawn183
2008-06-05, 06:14 PM
Yeah, I went with twilight mithral fullplate so that I could still use Chilling Fog with a reasonable chance of success.

Its also rediculously fun to play a character that can only has a move speed of 15 feet.

Ok seriously, I know I probably sound like a fanboy right now but this class is just so rediculously amazing. Its everything that I like about the warlock with a different flavor that just is exactly up my alley.

Chronos
2008-06-05, 06:25 PM
Burley, you can check the label on the breath weapon here.Annoyingly, Wizards appears to have just taken all 3.x material off of their website, so that link no longer works. Had I known they were going to do that, I would have gone through and saved all those pages.

Bearonet
2008-06-05, 06:35 PM
Annoyingly, Wizards appears to have just taken all 3.x material off of their website, so that link no longer works. Had I known they were going to do that, I would have gone through and saved all those pages.

They haven't, they've just archived them!

Draz74
2008-06-06, 12:06 AM
Annoyingly, Wizards appears to have just taken all 3.x material off of their website, so that link no longer works. Had I known they were going to do that, I would have gone through and saved all those pages.

Really? The link's still working for me. And I'm on a different computer than usual, so I don't think it's just cached. (Especially since I hit "Reload" and it worked.)

Chronos
2008-06-06, 01:01 AM
Hm, it's possible that they were just down temporarily, while they were in the process of archiving. In any event, it's working again, which makes me happy.

Draz74
2008-06-06, 02:36 AM
Hm, it's possible that they were just down temporarily, while they were in the process of archiving. In any event, it's working again, which makes me happy.

Now, if we were wise, we'd learn a lesson from this and save these pages now. :smallamused:

Burley
2008-06-06, 08:18 AM
Actually, they archived 3.5 a long time ago. The day that 4e was announced (officially) they had the site down for more than an entire day, and when it came back up 3.5 junk was in the archives and 4e junk was slapped all over everything. (If you scrolled to the bottom and clicked on the grey bumpy monstrous humanoid's eye, it sent you to a random D&D page. I don't think that's there anymore...)

I conceed that some of my points were incorrect. I apologize for any troubles I may have caused any of you. I'm so ashamed. :smallwink:

Here's my final point differentiating Warlocks from DfAs (and it shines as Warlocks being better, but it's only 74% meant to be an arguement for my kin): DfA's strongest abilities hurt them (Five-Fold breath of Ouchies and Discombobulating Breath), while the Warlock doesn't ever have to take damage unless s/he takes that horrid prestige class that I never advocate.

Person_Man
2008-06-06, 09:07 AM
As others have mentioned, strait Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) is, by itself, a great class that doesn't need a PrC.

If you want access to the Metabreath feats that require "a breath weapon with a recharge time" then be a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) with the heart trait. It fits thematically, and allows you to qualify. If your DM calls shenanigans and only allows your metabreath feat to apply to the breath weapon, then don't bother with it. You'll be potent anyway.

As a Dragonfire Adept, you never have to worry about making an attack roll. Ever. And armor never affects a supernatural or spell-like ability’s use. So feel free to wear the most ridiculous heavy armor and tower shield, even if you're non-proficient.

For feats, as long as you have Flyby Attack you'll be fine. Extra Invocation from Complete Arcane is also a must have in my opinion.


Best Invocations/Breath Effects:

Endure Exposure: Make your party immune to your breath weapon. Now they don't have to worry about friendly fire from you.

Humanoid Shape: Lets you get any movement form - flight, climb, swim, etc.

Frightful Presence: Combine with other fear effects (wands, feats, etc), and you will never again be threatened by large mobs of low level enemies.

Voidsense: Blindsense 30 feet + breath weapon means you never have to worry about Invisible or Hiding enemies ever again.

Chilling Fog: Solid Fog is in many ways the ultimate battlefield control spell. Use it.

Energy Immunity: Seriously, who doesn't want to be immune to energy damage?

Slow Breath: Slow limits your enemies to a single Move or Standard action, and this works for 1 round even if they pass their Save. You will never again have to worry about full attack actions or Summons spells.

Fivefold Breath of Tiamat: 5 breath weapons at once. That's 45d6 damage at level 20. Not shabby.

marjan
2008-06-06, 10:30 AM
And armor never affects a supernatural or spell-like ability’s use.


In case of DFA it specifically says that they incur ASF if they wear armor or use shields.