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Aleron
2008-06-04, 07:55 PM
You can flury with a monk weapon...but can you flury, and take advantage of TWF at the same time? Just curious because, with a flurying, TWFing monk with two Kama's, if both work, you end up with a ton of attacks each round, add in Monkey Grip (yeah, I know) and one of thoise Kama's is now large...has anyone ever tried a build like that, and would it even work?

AmberVael
2008-06-04, 08:00 PM
TWF and Flurry stacks.
And so do all the penalties. You're talking about -6 to attack here, and that's a very, very hefty penalty. You'd need to find some way to boost that up before it became viable.

Nebo_
2008-06-04, 08:01 PM
Yes, you can flurry and TWF at the same time.


Monkey Grip (yeah, I know)

That makes me think that you don't actually know... Monky Grip sucks. That's all there is to it. If you don't add it to the build, you will do more damage. Monks need all the help they can get to hit things.

Note that you can also use TWF with your fists.

Solo
2008-06-04, 08:23 PM
You can flury with a monk weapon...but can you flury, and take advantage of TWF at the same time? Just curious because, with a flurying, TWFing monk with two Kama's, if both work, you end up with a ton of attacks each round, add in Monkey Grip (yeah, I know) and one of thoise Kama's is now large...has anyone ever tried a build like that, and would it even work?

You make a ton of attacks.

And you miss with all of them.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 08:30 PM
Know what? I had this big, long entry figured out to debunk you and say "NO! Your wrong. Unarmed weapons aren't considered off hand!" I had quotes from d20srd.org and everything. Then I actually look at the TWF feat...and damn if it didn't anwser my question for me. I assumed I knew what the feat said and caused my own problem! Anyway, part of my problem came from the way the monk's Unarmed strike is described:



Unarmed StrikeAt 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
Had to do some quoting! But look at the italics for my confusion.

Yes, TWF+Flury makes for some hefty penalties, but add in an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Amulet of Natural Attacks can boost that, plus I'm planning on actually staying Monk till greater Flury, so no flury penalty, and going Ranger for free TWF & TWD. I'll burn a feat or two on I.TWF & G.TWF. Add in Snap Kick and on a full round attack at 20(what I'm building it for) I get 10 attacks. Also, on the turns where I'm fighting one of my favored enemies, there's some extra damage/attack bonus made up.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 08:32 PM
You make a ton of attacks.

And you miss with all of them.

I've played plenty of Monks and don't have the major issues hitting that most people seem to complain about, except against flying foes, which my levels in other classes can help with via Martial weapons prof for Bows.

Solo
2008-06-04, 08:36 PM
I've played plenty of Monks and don't have the major issues hitting that most people seem to complain about, except against flying foes, which my levels in other classes can help with via Martial weapons prof for Bows.

I suspect the multitude of penalties in the manner so described in you first post will catch up with you.

And you only have a problem with hitting things with monks if you don't emphasize strength. That means you'll have lower AC and HP, plus fewer skills.

But remember, Monks aren't MAD.

Signmaker
2008-06-04, 08:39 PM
Yes, TWF+Flury makes for some hefty penalties, but add in an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Amulet of Natural Attacks can boost that, plus I'm planning on actually staying Monk till greater Flury, so no flury penalty, and going Ranger for free TWF & TWD. I'll burn a feat or two on I.TWF & G.TWF. Add in Snap Kick and on a full round attack at 20(what I'm building it for) I get 10 attacks. Also, on the turns where I'm fighting one of my favored enemies, there's some extra damage/attack bonus made up.

Amulet...of Mighty Fists.
For such a small bonus, those things are expensive.
Also, with such hefty penalties (What, -6 from TWF, Flurry, and Monkey Grip?), you are really relying on a natural 20 for any 'solid' hit. Sure, the penalities lessen as your monk levels increase, but it's a heavy burden to bear unless you gear your entire character towards increasing BAB to compensate.

Which would ultimately detract from funds to help other departments.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 08:55 PM
I suspect the multitude of penalties in the manner so described in you first post will catch up with you.

And you only have a problem with hitting things with monks if you don't emphasize strength. That means you'll have lower AC and HP, plus fewer skills.

But remember, Monks aren't MAD.

Ugh, I'm not in this post to get into a MAD discussion, but seems here is a minor popping up anyway. 2-3 feats that keep strength from being "necessary" for an effective "striker" build. Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack for attack bonus. I go after Intuitive Attack since Wis also boosts you stunning and some other abilities, plus is easier to work with in multi classing. The second feat that helps mitigate the Monk's problems is Improved Natural Attack (Add Monk's Belt & Superior Unarmed Strike and with a lvl 2 "Monk" your dealing 2d8+x on attacks, if you can go to lvl 3 in monk(Also getting Still Mind) and with those 2 you end up at 3d6/hit). If your fighting unarmed the damage increase is indispensible.

For a monk to be effective you "need" Dex/Wis good, Con decent, cha/int can be dump. Str, in all honesty CAN be a dump stat for monks, though it's easier if you can make it at least a decent stat(hope for at least a 14). I can normally, with minor tweeking, keep up on damage with about any melee class outside of warblade/sword sage.

You don't agree, fine. I'm basing this off of what I've done in game in my groups with strait monks up through the levels. Not arguing that Monk's benifit from multiple GOOD scores probably more than other classes, just that it's not impossible to make an effective Monk with only a couple good scores.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 08:59 PM
Amulet...of Mighty Fists.
For such a small bonus, those things are expensive.
Also, with such hefty penalties (What, -6 from TWF, Flurry, and Monkey Grip?), you are really relying on a natural 20 for any 'solid' hit. Sure, the penalities lessen as your monk levels increase, but it's a heavy burden to bear unless you gear your entire character towards increasing BAB to compensate.

Which would ultimately detract from funds to help other departments.

Monkey Grip was in there if going Kama for larger weapons. unarmed I'll forgo that, lessen the penality by 2 go I. Natural Attack for more damage. At higher level's I just take the -2 for TWF that other classes make. And if I do use this, then gearing for high BAB is exactly what I'm going to be doing.

The Necroswanso
2008-06-04, 09:05 PM
Note that you can also use TWF with your fists.

Actually there was some crazy errata on the WoTC that said you can't. They were doing some crazy explanations as to how you only could attack with one fist. And as such if you were wielding a weapon in one hand you could not make two unarmed strikes as well as attack with the weapon.
There was this huge confusing ass article.

It did however grant you the ability to use flurry and make an attack with a monk weapon as part of it.
However, without the proper feats, yes you're looking at a big penalty.

I also don't think you're allowed to TWF in conjunction with a weapon above your category even with monkey grip.

Nebo_
2008-06-04, 09:09 PM
Actually there was some crazy errata on the WoTC that said you can't. They were doing some crazy explanations as to how you only could attack with one fist. And as such if you were wielding a weapon in one hand you could not make two unarmed strikes as well as attack with the weapon.
There was this huge confusing ass article.

It did however grant you the ability to use flurry and make an attack with a monk weapon as part of it.
However, without the proper feats, yes you're looking at a big penalty.

I also don't think you're allowed to TWF in conjunction with a weapon above your category even with monkey grip.


I'm pretty sure that was FAQ, and that it said you could.

The Necroswanso
2008-06-04, 09:10 PM
Did it? I've never been good at reading WoTC faq and eratta... They speak in riddles I tell you.

Solo
2008-06-04, 09:12 PM
if you can go to lvl 3 in monk(Also getting Still Mind) and with those 2 you end up at 3d6/hit). If your fighting unarmed the damage increase is indispensible.

So, you're doing an average of 10.5 damage at level 3.

A first level fighter with a greatsword does 2d6+4 damage, with 16 str and no weapon focus. Averages out to 11 damage.

Food for thought.

Signmaker
2008-06-04, 09:13 PM
Monkey Grip was in there if going Kama for larger weapons. unarmed I'll forgo that, lessen the penality by 2 go I. Natural Attack for more damage. At higher level's I just take the -2 for TWF that other classes make. And if I do use this, then gearing for high BAB is exactly what I'm going to be doing.

Assuming DM allows you to take INA. Also, your response to Solo includes a Monk's belt at level 2. I don't need to tell you what's wrong with that.

Matthew
2008-06-04, 09:15 PM
Did it? I've never been good at reading WoTC faq and eratta... They speak in riddles I tell you.

There was a lot of controversy from Wizard Board folk who wouldn't accept what the FAQ said. The question was recently put to Sage Advice, and the FAQ ruling was upheld. Still there are some people who will not take "yes" for an answer, firmly set in their belief that an Unarmed Attack is one weapon and cannot be used as two. Lord_Silvanos and I met such an individual a couple of months back. Hilarity ensued...

holywhippet
2008-06-04, 09:20 PM
TWF and Flurry stacks.
And so do all the penalties. You're talking about -6 to attack here, and that's a very, very hefty penalty. You'd need to find some way to boost that up before it became viable.

Well, if your enemy has an AC so high that you can only hit on a natural 20 - that -6 penalty is pretty much meaningless.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 09:26 PM
/palm-head

@Signmakerens:
Ok, that post was poorly worded. There was however a reason the word monk was in parenthesis. I know that no DM in their right mind would give a character a monk's belt at lvl 2-3. That was meant to mean that there were 2-3 monk levels preceding what ever other levels may be taken afterwards.

@Solo:
Yes, a Fighter with higher str is going to do more damage/hit than I will, but guess what, as we level, my monk is going to have a LOT more attacks than a fighter. LvL 20 fighter with the TWF tree maxed is going to have 7 attacks. My monk is going to have 10(BAB w/multi classing, Flury, TWF tree, Snap Kick). I'll take that.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-04, 09:27 PM
Well, if your enemy has an AC so high that you can only hit on a natural 20 - that -6 penalty is pretty much meaningless.

If you're fighting an enemy who consistently has an AC so high you can only hit on a 20, you run. Plain and simple.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 09:35 PM
If you're fighting an enemy who consistently has an AC so high you can only hit on a 20, you run. Plain and simple.

And outside of Expedious Retreat, noone does that better than a Monk!!!:smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2008-06-04, 09:36 PM
And outside of Expedious Retreat, noone does that better than a Monk!!!:smallbiggrin:

So your build relies on running because you can't hit anyone...
Well, it certainly plays to the monk's strength. :smallyuk:

MeklorIlavator
2008-06-04, 09:38 PM
Ahh, the old "I don't have to run faster than <Insert Bad Guy here>, only faster than you" trick. Big hit with parties:smallamused:.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-04, 09:38 PM
It brings up memories from the past...

Solo
2008-06-04, 09:39 PM
Yes, a Fighter with higher str is going to do more damage/hit than I will, but guess what, as we level, my monk is going to have a LOT more attacks than a fighter. LvL 20 fighter with the TWF tree maxed is going to have 7 attacks. My monk is going to have 10(BAB w/multi classing, Flury, TWF tree, Snap Kick). I'll take that.

A few solid attacks with good damage are better than a flurry of shakey attacks with poor damage.

Look, at level 3, a figther's going to do about 14 damage per hit, without power attack. He'll have an AB of +8 ish.

What are your monk's AB?

Let's test against somethig of AC 20.

A fighter hits 60% of the time, for 14 damage per hit. He deals roughly 9 damage on average.

What does your monk get?

Nebo_
2008-06-04, 09:42 PM
Yes, a Fighter with higher str is going to do more damage/hit than I will, but guess what, as we level, my monk is going to have a LOT more attacks than a fighter. LvL 20 fighter with the TWF tree maxed is going to have 7 attacks. My monk is going to have 10(BAB w/multi classing, Flury, TWF tree, Snap Kick). I'll take that.

You're going to have more attacks, but they're going to be much weaker. As you get higher in level, the difference in damage becomes more apparent. The fighter or barbarian will be doing far, far more damage. The Fighter will be more able to overcome DR because of power attack and a two handed weapon and the monk will just keep on sucking unless you can find a way to get extra damage.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 09:52 PM
@Running jokes...Yup, sometimes you run. It happens, I just get away easier when I have to. :)

@Solo

Not going to argue this anymore. I'm tired of the MAD & Monk discussions. The question I had was answered, and on the first reply. Sufice it to say that I'm using this build because it fits the thought behind the character, and that it's being built at level 20, no 2-3. I'll take my machine gun monk, have fun, and all will be right with the world. I don't always care if my build is the most optimized possible as long as it's competitive in the group, which it will be.

Monk's are the victim of bad design being stuck at 3/4 BAB. I'm ok with that because I like the flavor and fluff behind the monk. It's the way I am.

AmberVael
2008-06-04, 09:52 PM
A few solid attacks with good damage are better than a flurry of shakey attacks with poor damage.

Look, at level 3, a figther's going to do about 14 damage per hit, without power attack. He'll have an AB of +8 ish.

What are your monk's AB?

Let's test against somethig of AC 20.

A fighter hits 60% of the time, for 14 damage per hit. He deals roughly 9 damage on average.

What does your monk get?

Um.
Solo, your math is questionable.
Assuming the 16 strength fighter...
+3 BAB, +3 Strength, +1 (maybe strength bonus from magic items if he is lucky, a masterwork weapon, or maybe a magic weapon... but probably not two). Which leaves an extra +1 to be desired.
So I'd say about +7 for level 3.

Against an AC of 20, however... even with +8, you'd not get 60%. No, you're looking at 45% chance of hitting with a +8, and 40% chance of hitting with a +7.

For damage... it seems you assume 18 strength a magic weapon, which I wouldn't assume. You have 2700 gp of wealth, and I doubt you're going to have a 2350 gp weapon as part of that wealth if you're naturally acquiring it all.
Also, 18 strength heavily depends on stat generation. Your 16 is more likely.
As such...
2d6+4 seems to be the damage you'd deal at level 3 without power attack. Average of 11 damage.

Aleron
2008-06-04, 10:17 PM
Your +1 attack roll discrepency is made up for with Weapon Focus(Insert Weapon)

Solo
2008-06-04, 11:06 PM
Your +1 attack roll discrepency is made up for with Weapon Focus(Insert Weapon)

That feat seems more appropriate for a brothel than a battelfield.

ocato
2008-06-04, 11:25 PM
I'd like to support the "I'll play whatever I want to play and to hell with the boards/optimizers" mentality. It's one with my own desires. You're a man after my own heart.

Alternately, when playing an unarmed bruiser, I have recently been in the mindset of making a fighter before a monk, but that's just my 2c. All those feats replace most anything the monk can offer, except that the monk offers unarmored AC bonuses and flurry. If you don't mind wearing armor, a fighter works just fine (even if you want to use stunning fist feats, fighters can pick them up, just later).

Personally I don't like combining TWF with flurry, because it makes very little sense to me. The whole idea of flurry is that it's the TWF option for monks because they usually don't use weapons. Also, Flurry is superior to TWF for a full(ish) monk, because it reduces the attack penalty from -2/-2 to -1/-1 and eventually +0/+0, so why worry? As for combining a weapon with an unarmed attack, look up snap kick in ToB. It's like TWF for a Weapon+Unarmed except you can make both attacks on a standard action (and possibly a charge, depending on how you and your DM choose to read it).

Enjoy your character.

Chronos
2008-06-05, 12:02 AM
The Fighter will be more able to overcome DR because of power attack and a two handed weaponAnd also because he has a weapon. It's a lot easier for a fighter to get a silver, cold iron, or good weapon than it is for a monk to get the same on his fists.

And a monk's unarmed strike is indeed a single weapon. However, an unarmed strike and a nunchuck are two weapons, so there's no reason at all you couldn't TWF (and Flurry) with a 'chuck in one hand and your fist in the other.

Funkyodor
2008-06-05, 01:00 AM
Also you could flurry the unarmed strikes (elbows, knees, and feet of fury!) and TWF with a quarterstaff used two handed for the extra STR / Power Attack damage.

Hectonkhyres
2008-06-05, 02:28 AM
In my group, nobody would play a monk... ever. And so we just houseruled one night that they don't take said penalties when they go arms akimbo. Big break for the class.

Next week we had a monk punting goblins into the ceiling left and right.

Aleron
2008-06-05, 07:03 AM
I'd like to support the "I'll play whatever I want to play and to hell with the boards/optimizers" mentality. It's one with my own desires. You're a man after my own heart.

Alternately, when playing an unarmed bruiser, I have recently been in the mindset of making a fighter before a monk, but that's just my 2c. All those feats replace most anything the monk can offer, except that the monk offers unarmored AC bonuses and flurry. If you don't mind wearing armor, a fighter works just fine (even if you want to use stunning fist feats, fighters can pick them up, just later).

Personally I don't like combining TWF with flurry, because it makes very little sense to me. The whole idea of flurry is that it's the TWF option for monks because they usually don't use weapons. Also, Flurry is superior to TWF for a full(ish) monk, because it reduces the attack penalty from -2/-2 to -1/-1 and eventually +0/+0, so why worry? As for combining a weapon with an unarmed attack, look up snap kick in ToB. It's like TWF for a Weapon+Unarmed except you can make both attacks on a standard action (and possibly a charge, depending on how you and your DM choose to read it).

Enjoy your character.
Well, as I said, the TWF was just to have a "Machine Gun Monk" cause when you finish the TWF tree, that's an extra 3 attacks each full combat round, granted at a declining Attack Bonus. I might still take the Kama and hold on to it, just in case I need a more specific weapon from time to time.

Roderick_BR
2008-06-05, 07:36 AM
Yes, it stacks. It's only really useful by the time you stop taking flurry penalties. You are better off using your hands if you get the amulets of mighty fists.
There's a book (can't remember which) with a pair of bracelets that turns your hands into magic weapons (and able to be enchanted as normal weapons) that costs as double weapons, instead of the "tripple weapons" cost from the amulets.
So, greater flurry, those magic bracers, TWF, ITWF, and GTWF, and if you can get some levels of Tempest, you can rain punches on enemies. Yeah, a confusing build, indeed. Find a way to get pounce, and you are golden.
http://saint-mercury.chez-alice.fr/gifs/bronze/seiya/16.gif

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-05, 08:30 AM
"Kachu tenshin amaguriken", motherbleepers.

Solo
2008-06-05, 08:38 AM
I'd like to support the "I'll play whatever I want to play and to hell with the boards/optimizers" mentality. It's one with my own desires. You're a man after my own heart.

...

Enjoy your character.

I refer you to the quote in my sig.

AmberVael
2008-06-05, 08:56 AM
I'd like to support the "I'll play whatever I want to play and to hell with the boards/optimizers" mentality. It's one with my own desires. You're a man after my own heart.

You know, I'm fine with playing unoptimized characters, and subpar choices...
But having 3/4 BAB and voluntarily taking -6 penalties... isn't unoptimized. It's suicidal.

I have, personally, played a flurry/TWF character (incidentally, I used a quarterstaff), but really you need to find some way to up your BAB before you can hit anyone, let alone be anywhere near effective. I would definitely not go for Monkey Grip. The other penalties would be hard enough to deal with without adding it in.
I mean really, it's just... not a big enough bonus for this build to be worth yet another -2 to attack.

Anyways, yes, to make this viable (And yet also the way you want it) I'd definitely advise getting weapon finesse. It would let you focus far less on your strength score, which would be good (overall your damage would go down for each hit, but your chance to hit would go up a bit, and your AC would be passable.
And honestly, weapon focus might even be worthwhile for this build. You need every boost to your attack bonus that you can get.

Aleron
2008-06-05, 09:11 AM
Vale, I've said it a couple times before in other posts. I will not be using Monkey Grip in this build. It was a thought I had that I later rejected for multiple reasons. With the various levels I'm taking (up to 11 monk for Greater Flury), and all entire TWF tree, I have a total -2 to hit with the first extra attack, and my main hand attacks. My subsiquent off hand attacks take a -5 & -10 penality, just like normal attack progression, granted from an already reduced -2, as above.

Now, with help in the BAB issues, after lvl 11 I either go Fighter for a few levels or PRC into something that gives me full BAB for those levels and it helps increase my BAB closer to what a full BAB class gets. At 20 I have a BAB of 17, 3 less than a fighter et al. My bonuses come from either Weapon Finess or Intuitive Attack, so I don't lag in that area (Yes, it requires me to give up a feat, I know that). At this point I can also choose to use Snap Kick for an extra attack even though yes it, all other attacks, get a -2 penality and I get a higher amount of attacks(without Snap Kick) with only slightly less chance to hit than a similar TWF weapon user build based on Fighter/other full BAB class.

Yes, I'm more magic item dependant, and again, I'm ok with that. Note I don't mean Sir G's mess of a "build" in that monster of a thread somewhere on the page.

@Solo
With this set up, I do contribute about on par/slightly above par with other Melee in my group, and that's the important thing to note here, my group. We have 1 min maxer in the group, and he's getting ready to leave via military reasons. Most of the group(sans the Marine that's leaving) tries to put more thought into the flavor of their character and make it an interesting character to play instead of being so wholy concerned with the amount of Damage they can crank out. Why else would anyone play a Beguiler, which our normal DM did when another of us ran the game a while back. Because he thought it would be fun.

Solo
2008-06-05, 09:29 AM
Most of the group(sans the Marine that's leaving) tries to put more thought into the flavor of their character and make it an interesting character to play instead of being so wholy concerned with the amount of Damage they can crank out.
Implied is the statement that I think characters should be soley concerned abot the amount of damage they churn out.

Have I said anything of the sort?


Why else would anyone play a Beguiler, which our normal DM did when another of us ran the game a while back. Because he thought it would be fun.
Er... you do realize that a Beguiler is one of the more powerful classes in DnD, right?

Why are you using this as a counter argument to my powergaming?

Rasilak
2008-06-05, 09:31 AM
Hey, would it actually be a viable option to completely ignore AB, and focus on raising your AC in the stratosphere (e.g. with Combat Expertise)? So everyone only hits with a 20, but you have, like, 3 times the attacks.

Eldariel
2008-06-05, 09:36 AM
At that point, you need to hit hard. Generally, the guy with 20 BAB dual wielded Power Attack weapon is at advantage there, and that's only in a duel - with a party, you generally need to be dealing enough damage/blocking their movement enough to force the opponents to engage you instead of killing the easiest targets first.

Anyways, if you want to pursue that path, Dervish is quite good with Expertise and Defensive Fighting (with Elaborate Parry) resulting in obscene AC and you still having a decent AB with Dervish Dance-bonuses along with fine bonus to all damage and full TWF to increase your number of attacks.

Solo
2008-06-05, 09:36 AM
Hey, would it actually be a viable option to completely ignore AB, and focus on raising your AC in the stratosphere (e.g. with Combat Expertise)? So everyone only hits with a 20, but you have, like, 3 times the attacks.

So basically... make it so that the only time anyone hits anyone ever is on a crit (ie, 5% chance).

This seems like it would slow down combat a tad.

AmberVael
2008-06-05, 09:43 AM
Ah, sorry, I missed that.
I've never been especially good at noticing things. >.>

The other thing you really need to think about is how you're going to take advantage of all those attacks. Sure, stacking attack on attack is great, but it doesn't really mean anything unless you can reliably use all those attacks.

Pounce, of course, is the obvious solution. Getting it is difficult though.

Another (lesser) solution would be getting the Travel Domain feat, but that might imply some fluff which you'd need to work out or reflavor...

Getting the Hustle power through use of psychic warrior or a magic item might also work, and the idea of psionic power typical fits very nicely with a monk. Using psychic warrior, however, usually means that you lose more BAB, which may not be in your best interests.

An unusual and yet one of my favorite approaches is using a strange little thing from Tome of Battle. Taking a dip in Warblade or Swordsage give you access to the Sudden Leap maneuver, which allows you to take a Jump check as a free action once per encounter. Interesting stuff.
Also note that, with the right selection of maneuvers and stances, taking Swordsage levels could allow you to get the Shadowblade feat (which would allow you to add dexterity mod to unarmed attack damage).


None of those may appeal to your or fit with the character concept, but just in case.

Aleron
2008-06-05, 09:43 AM
I've thought of going that way before, but I've just never done that.

@Solo
#1 If your not concerned with the amount of damage you crank out, and instead more concerned with the flavor of the character and being able to RP it the way you want, then what does the amount of Damge you can output a hit matter, or the BAB you have matter...I wanted a guy that hits with his fists in rapid fire like a machine gun on a full attack, I think I have that. You show me a class build that get 10 attacks at level 20 with so much more reliability, and I'll concede my point.

#2 I've seen a total of 2 beguilers played in groups I've been in, and I can't think of any instances in those games that they were destroying/cripling/disabling the enemy left & right. I've also not seen thread upon thread upon thread going on about the OPness, or simply high poweredness, of a beguiler. They seem, due to my personal experience, to be rather weak in anything other than a support role in a group. In most all cases the group would be better off just having a Wizard/Sorcerer as their primary arcane caster since they have better versitility than, at least from what I've seen, beguilers.

Solo
2008-06-05, 09:57 AM
@Solo
#1 If your not concerned with the amount of damage you crank out, and instead more concerned with the flavor of the character and being able to RP it the way you want, then what does the amount of Damge you can output a hit matter, or the BAB you have matter...I wanted a guy that hits with his fists in rapid fire like a machine gun on a full attack, I think I have that. You show me a class build that get 10 attacks at level 20 with so much more reliability, and I'll concede my point.


You have to be concerned with your combat stats in addition to your character flavor because the best flavor in the world won't keep you alive in combat.

Somewhere, there's a build out there with a ton of attacks and decent AB and damage. I believe it involved a Thri-keen.



#2 I've seen a total of 2 beguilers played in groups I've been in, and I can't think of any instances in those games that they were destroying/cripling/disabling the enemy left & right. I've also not seen thread upon thread upon thread going on about the OPness, or simply high poweredness, of a beguiler. They seem, due to my personal experience, to be rather weak in anything other than a support role in a group. In most all cases the group would be better off just having a Wizard/Sorcerer as their primary arcane caster since they have better versitility than, at least from what I've seen, beguilers.
The trick with casters is that you have to use them properly.

Beguilers aren't ment to be your primary caster, but rather, a combination of a rogue and a caster. A sneakster, if you will.

You see, a hammer if used as a door stop will not show its effectiveness, but if you use it properly to nail something, then it really shines.

Frosty
2008-06-05, 10:19 AM
Gee, a Wizard > Beguiler. Well duh! Wizard > Most things. That said, the Beguilers can totally make your enemies suck enough to be non-trivial. Just Solid Fog alone makes the Beguiler decent at mid levels. He also has a huge array of save or dies of all levels in the form of Color Spray, Deep Slumber, etc. Hell, Beguilers can *tank* against certain enemies if need be. Displacement + Greater Mirror Image = enemies can't hit you. Then you have tons of skillpoints for out of combat goodness.

Beguilers aren't Overpowered. They're just right for the job (the Rogue's job, that is)

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-05, 10:37 AM
As much as I like Monks, it can be really depressing sometimes playing one.

Instead of Fighter, you might want to consider psionics.

Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm),Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm),Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)

Psychic Warrior's have a power list that goes a long way for any melee class. Especially Expansion, which can let you increase your size, and Psionic Lions Charge which lets you Full Attack on a Charge. I don't know if you'll be able to FLURRY on a Charge, but at the very least it will let you take advantage of your awesome Monk Speed.
And, they give you bonus feats! Woot!

Psionic Fist is for Monks that want to be Psychic Warriors. Not as many Bonus Feats, but it does advance your Monkness. Alas, it doesn't advance you as a Psychic Warrior. So, you'd want to go with one or the other. Psionic Fist is probably your best bet here.

Slayer gives you full BAB and advances a Psionic's Class. It's made of Awesome and Win. Some would say it's too good. But you're a Monk. It also gives you a favored enemy against an Abberation of your choice, but that doesn't really matter too much. Pick one you're likely to encounter.


Not only will this help make you kick more ass, but you'll be nice and flashy while doing it. What's not to love?

If Psionics clashes too much, call it Ki instead. I mean hey, you're already a Monk right?

Aleron
2008-06-05, 11:38 AM
Well, was proven that a higher amount of total attacks is possible, though with so much cheese even France couldn't supply the wine, but I never specified it had to be a non broken build. SO this is my last post in thie thread, let it die, please. The point of the thread was satisified yesterday in the first 2 posts, and this has all turned into more of a mess than was ever intended. Let's keep the discussion about what monks are or are not to Sir G's borked build thread.