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Yakk
2008-06-05, 01:55 PM
Sneak in combat looks really sick.

If there is a region of concealment (a fog bank or a forest, say), you can on each turn move positions, make a stealth check, hide, get combat advantage, then do a thrown attack for your sneak attack damage.

That could be much easier than going off and actually flanking bad guys. :) However, the bad guys can run into your cover and try to flush you out.

On a somewhat similar note, if you can pull off a high Intimidate skill, you can do "save or lose" intimidates on bloodied foes to make them surrender (Hostile gives +10 to the will defense -- but Trained + Skill Focus can bring that into the range where you have a 25% to 50% chance of making a target give up), and you can Intimidate multiple bloodied targets at once.

Saph
2008-06-05, 04:38 PM
Yeah, I've been thinking about Stealth in combat, too. Really nice if you're a ranged character sniping from the woods. Shoot, hide, repeat. You should have a better-than-average chance of beating their Perception check each round.

The only drawback is that the enemies can just turn around and hit your teammates, which might not make you many friends . . .

- Saph

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 04:44 PM
It can be a lot worse, trust me.

For example, Hide from the Light. Give the rogue a crossbow, let him go in front, and he'll solo any encounter that doesn't see through invisibility.

skywalker
2008-06-05, 04:45 PM
The only drawback is that the enemies can just turn around and hit your teammates, which might not make you many friends . . .

- Saph

That's what defenders are for! :smallbiggrin:

wodan46
2008-06-05, 04:56 PM
Picture a party of all rogues with crossbows.

Yakk
2008-06-05, 05:22 PM
To be fair, you can work out where the rogue is. :) But ya, that's sick.

(Hide from the Light is a full-encounter daily invisibility power, utility 22, that lets you make at-will/basic attacks and move slowly.)

Hide in Plain Sight also is sick.

Johnny Blade
2008-06-05, 05:35 PM
Yeah, and then you can also get some nifty stuff from the Master Infiltrator Paragon Path.

Ranged Rogues are really good. Not feasible early on, but they get pretty scary later on.

JaxGaret
2008-06-05, 06:19 PM
On a somewhat similar note, if you can pull off a high Intimidate skill, you can do "save or lose" intimidates on bloodied foes to make them surrender (Hostile gives +10 to the will defense -- but Trained + Skill Focus can bring that into the range where you have a 25% to 50% chance of making a target give up), and you can Intimidate multiple bloodied targets at once.

Note that the DMG states that "the targetís general attitude toward you and other conditional modifiers (such as what you might be seeking to accomplish or what youíre asking for) might apply to the DC."

This means that the DC can be upped by the DM if the enemies are particularly bloodthirsty, well-disciplined, etc., or for other reasons.

+10 is simply the base modifier for them being hostile to you. Consider that someone who you even attempt to Intimidate is considered Hostile to you, and you see that Hostile has changed from 3e to 4e; if you're actively combating them, that can easily raise the DC as well by itself. Or if they have good reason to think that you're going to kill them anyway if they surrender. Or any of a myriad of things.

So "Intimidate vs. Will +10, succeed and the enemies surrender" isn't quite accurate. For instance, one of my PCs tried this in a fight against Kobolds. Since the entry in KotS states that they "fight to the death" because they know that the consequences of not doing so are harsh, I upped the DC by a fair margin. Also, Irontooth was in his Blood Frenzy, which I figured would also make him less amenable to simply giving up.

Capfalcon
2008-06-05, 06:24 PM
It can be a lot worse, trust me.

For example, Hide from the Light. Give the rogue a crossbow, let him go in front, and he'll solo any encounter that doesn't see through invisibility.

Then again, it's a freaking epic-tier daily. I think at epic levels, going invisible is kinda commonplace.

wodan46
2008-06-05, 06:28 PM
Using a regular Crossbow, rogues can do 3d8+Modifier with a standard attack. The difficulty is that you can't gain sneak attack via flanking, so will have to use concealment instead.

Comparison of 2 level 1 rogue builds
Sniper Rogue: 3d8+5=18.5 average damage
Scoundrel Rogue: 1d4+2d8+3+5=19.5 average damage

The Sniper Rogue requires a less refined build, attacks from a distance while receiving cover and concealment, and doesn't need allies to flank the target. The Scoundrel's only advantage is that concealment is hard to get in some circumstances (IE dungeon hallway rather than forest camp), while meatshields are always handy in the party, and +1 damage.

I say that the Sniper Rogue is better, but that depends on the ease of which it can get combat advantage via sneakiness.

Saph
2008-06-05, 06:56 PM
It can be a lot worse, trust me.

For example, Hide from the Light. Give the rogue a crossbow, let him go in front, and he'll solo any encounter that doesn't see through invisibility.

Yeah, but you can do the woodland sniping thing at level 1. Even without focusing on it, any rogue or archery ranger will have a Stealth of +8 or +9. That's enough to give good odds against the Perception scores of most monsters, and without sacrificing any feats or AC.

- Saph