Who thinks Nale is pathetic?

[paladinofshojo]

Considering the fact that he had to waste all of his levels trying to be a "jack of all trades".............This is really pathetic since he wasted more levels needlessly complicated multi-classing to virtually get the same skills as his useless bardic twin without the perks.....Even if he took the easier road and became a bard in the first place he would have been laughed out of the 9 hells as a joke, an "evil bard"? Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Yeah, he's pretty pathetic. His build is worse in pretty much every way than straight bard. He's got less magic, less skills, and less attack bonus. He could have chosen spells not available to bards, but he didn't. His HP at least are about comparable (the fighter levels about make up for the sorcerer levels), but no better.

[The Extinguisher]

That's the joke.
Also, evil bards can be damn scary.

Imagine, if you will, a travelling entertainer. This entertainer will travel from town to town, spending a night or two, singing songs and having a good time. However, when morning comes, the townspeople are all dead or missing, the village ransacked and destroyed, and the entertainer is nowhere to be seen.
That isn't music that tames the beast within, that's for sure.



I need to keep that.

[Liwen]

Well at least he has sneak attacks, not very powerfull ones, but it's always usefull when you run out of spells, and he also got bonus fighting feats. I'm sure that if someone was to try a rogue/figther/sorcerer, he could be usefull in a small party of like three peoples. And it can be good for surprises during a fight. You see a guy cast a spell, so he must be a sorcerer with low hp. You attack him, he tumbles his way out, go hide soomewhere, sneaks attack you and drop like death from a rooftop to end you with a powerattack. Then you ask what the hell was that to the DM, and he answer, "XP penality."

And evil bards are quite usefull in massive engagements where their magical bonuses apply to hundreds of people.

[An Enemy Spy]

Nale is a wuss. Except for capturing Elan he has never won anything. And even then he still lost half his team(again)

[Red XIV]

That's the point of Nale, really. He's not half as formidable as he thinks he is. If Elan gets a few more levels in Dashing Swordman, Nale would probably have trouble even threatening him.

Well, except that that would render him pointless, so Nale will probably find a Presige class of his own. If nothing else, maintaining the "evil opposite" theme requires it.

[Liwen]

What is the evil opposite of a dashing swordman?

[B.I.T.T.]

..Even if he took the easier road and became a bard in the first place he would have been laughed out of the 9 hells as a joke, an "evil bard"? Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

I'd consider Michael Jackson an evil bard....maybe Michael Bolton too.

[Jayngfet]

I find his character as pathetic as Draco Malfoy, an idiot who uses a flimsy excuse to devote his life to obsessivly stalking someone who just wants to get on with his life. Squickness doubles due to the whole twin thing.

[Liwen]

I'd consider Michael Jackson an evil bard....maybe Michael Bolton too.

Not an evil bard, a summon!

Anti heroes #22 (http://ah.indolents.com/comic/22)

The guy got some awesome fear effects.

[brilliantlight]

As pointed out many times Nale is someone who thinks he is smart and has to prove it. However he is not that smart and tends to outsmart himself with overly elaborate plans. His build is of someone who tries to game the system and fails miserably.

[Jayngfet]

That's the point of Nale, really. He's not half as formidable as he thinks he is. If Elan gets a few more levels in Dashing Swordman, Nale would probably have trouble even threatening him.

Well, except that that would render him pointless, so Nale will probably find a Presige class of his own. If nothing else, maintaining the "evil opposite" theme requires it.

Maybe he goes michel Jackson and takes "Smooth criminal"...

After all "he's bad, he's bad, you know it"...

[Trizap]

that and as V pointed out, all his plans required no real thought in their construction as they are actually fairly predictable plot turns.

his first one, the Machiavelli style one? so obvious, as everyone knows that twins are always evil opposites, and that it was obvious that he just using them for this relatively simple plan.
Step one: get three pure hearted people to touch runes
Step Two: Get Talisman of Dorukan
Step Three: kill pure hearted people
Step four: Conquer stuff.

the second one, where he kidnaps Roy's sister? also simple.
Step one: kidnap sister
Step Two: lure Order of the Stick into trap
Step three: Pull the Ol' Switcheroo
Step Four: Kill them in their sleep.

see? anyone with an Int of 12 could have thought up with that.

[Demented]

At least he's got some formidable saves.

[krossbow]

His patheticness is probably what lead to his father denying him.



It'd be funny if Nale was driven mad simply by an inability to become a bard because of his father's dissaproval.

[Chronos]

At least he's got some formidable saves.Actually, he lags behind a true bard there, too. At level 12 (i.e., just before Elan got his PrC, to keep things fair), a true bard has base save bonuses of +4 Fort, +8 Ref, +8 Will. The rogue/fighter/sorcerer, meanwhile, has somewhere in the vicinity of +6 Fort, +6 Ref, +6 Will (depending on exactly how many levels he has of each).

[Tempest Fennac]

I always thought Hexblade/Beguiller would have been a better choice for Nale (I know he'd lose Sneak Attack, but, assuming he had a good Int stat, he would get more spells out of it). PrC-wise, he'll probably take some Eldrick Knight and Arcane Trickster levels due to wanting to persist in trying to master everything rather then focussing on becoming excellent in one area (the DS class improved Elan's combat skills a lot).

[The Extinguisher]

Haha. That's rich. Nale with a good INT modifier.

I personally think Nale would make a good Blackguard.

[T-O-E]

How very dare you. You promised to never make another Xykon thread! Darn loop-holes!


Considering the fact that he had to waste all of his levels trying to be a "jack of all trades".............This is really pathetic since he wasted more levels needlessly complicated multi-classing to virtually get the same skills as his useless bardic twin without the perks.....Even if he took the easier road and became a bard in the first place he would have been laughed out of the 9 hells as a joke, an "evil bard"? Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

That's the entire joke! His classes are overly-complicated and un-needed,(Elan can beat him). Matches his personality.

Evil bard? Eldoth.

[Remirach]

Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

Well, there's Asmodean of the Forsaken... which does little to disprove your point, but hey! It's happened.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Nale is a wuss. Except for capturing Elan he has never won anything. And even then he still lost half his team(again)

Really? The only reason his original plot failed was a huge against-the-odds shot by :haley:. When the Goat turns, and all that...

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to evil Bards, there is a variant called the Harbinger on Crystal Keep which debuffs enermies which can't be good aligned.

EDIT: It's on pge 16 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf . It looks weaker then normal Bards to to targets getting Will saves to counter their song's effects.

[King of Nowhere]

I think Nale is really funny, everytime I think at the concept of "band of evil opposite, led by Elan's evil twin, who want to be a clichè villain", it cracks me.

But I don't find him pathetic. His plans are good. He was going to destroy the order twice, and they saved only by sheer luck, both times. You try to predict your opponent's move with that accuracy.
Yes, his ego is much bigger than him. I don't think V really intended that he's stupid, he was just stimulating Nale's ego to recognize him.
Anyway, I find him ridiculous, for the "villain clichè" stuff, the "needlessy complicated unfavorable multiclassing" and the "taking disproportioned revenge over quasi-imagined slights". Poor Nale, all he wanted from life was being a serious villain...

[Tempest Fennac]

He's first plan was okay, and I agree with you about luck saving the Order. On the other hand, the 2nd battle was poorly thought out (the entire LG, preferably with a Wizard with a descent amount of levels) could have easily killed Roy, and Thog could have killed Elan while the rest of the LG were helping Leeky and his trees (they would have probably still been destroyed by Durkon, but it would have at least worked better then Nale's "switch with Elan" plan).

[Kato]

Hm.... It's hard to judge his plans... they are sooo old fashioned, ut it's right, they mainly failed by chance/luck/whatsoever. But still... e.g. when V tricked him into giving up his cover he just lost to his huge ego. It was just lame.

I'm not sure about his class combo, but I think an evil bard might work our just well... As already declared, he might use his songs/mind confusing spells to raid some villages... As the er... what is 'Rattenfänger von Hameln' in English? ^^' Rat hunter of Hamel or so, if you know the legend...

[Tempest Fennac]

He's called the Pied Piper over here. That could work (Nale appears to have a Cha of at least 15 due to his use of several Sending scrolls, so that would work, apart from the face that he's Laful rather then Neutral or Chaotic).

[Mr. Friendly]

I think Nale is awesome.

Yes, he has a lousy choice of classes, but as others have pointed out, he will eventually take a Prestige Class of his own, something that no doubt harmonizes well with what he has going on. (perhaps a Thrall to whoever-his-girl serves class)

At any rate, Nale is awesome because he is a self-aware villain, in much the way several other characters are self-aware. (self-aware in this case meaning breaking the 4th wall; being aware that he is a running gag and always trying to live up to character)

Also, having crappy choices for his character kind of makes sense, from a logical standpoint.

Think about it: He makes poor choices, then blames others for his failures. That's the classic villain for you right there.

[krossbow]

The thing that makes me like Nale is that, not only is he the opposite of Elan, he's the polar opposite of XYCON.



Xycon is an overly powerful buffoon with a great/OP class. He wades into battles without any plan whatsoever, and attempts to brute force defeat them. Furthermore, he's so overwhelmingly strong that its only because of his idiocy that he's beatable.


Nale on the other hand is incredibly weak. He's near useless in a fight, not even being able to neutralize Pre-prestige class ELAN, and could only run in fear of Roy. However, he's still a competent villian due to pre-planning all his schemes out, only going in once he has things set up. While He may personally display stupidity, his plans do not, and they almost always fall into the mold of a Xanatos gambit; heck, he usually has a way to escape incarceration should they fail.




Nale is the Chessmaster type villian; Xycon is the Uber-god type villian (contrast Sylar with The organization in Heroes)

[Iranon]

Re Nale's overall competence: He cares about style and does many things against his better judgment, so his intelligence or lack thereof is hard to judge. Wasted potential? Definitely. Awful or awesome? YMMV.

Re Evil Bards: I don't the concept laughable at all. Engineering conflicts and betrayals purely as inspiration for one's art... or, the other way round, setting up real-life events to mirror renowned tragedies would be rather chilling. On a more mundane level, preying on the tasteless (especially those producing bad art) might be another appropriate theme.

[SPoD]

On the other hand, the 2nd battle was poorly thought out (the entire LG, preferably with a Wizard with a descent amount of levels) could have easily killed Roy, and Thog could have killed Elan while the rest of the LG were helping Leeky and his trees (they would have probably still been destroyed by Durkon, but it would have at least worked better then Nale's "switch with Elan" plan).

You missed the entire point of the second battle.

Nale doesn't care about killing the OOTS, Nale cares about making Elan (and only Elan) suffer. Having Thog kill Elan would have defeated the point, because Elan would have been dead. You can't suffer when you're dead. Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, etc. only matter to Nale because they are Elan's friends, and Elan would know they were suffering. He considered it far more painful to Elan for him to sit in a jail cell, powerless, knowing that his brother was tricking them and killing them one by one, then to defeat them quickly in battle.

What makes Nale different from the other villains is that Nale's evil is the evil of inflicting personalized pain. Xykon will kill you because he's bored, Redcloak will kill you because you're opposing him, but Nale will slowly torture you to death while systematically destroying the things/people you cherish most in front of your eyes. Neither Xykon nor Redcloak will even bother learning what you cherish most!

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point. It still seemed like a huge waste of life considering how he lost some expensive magic weapons (and presumably some other magic items) as well as 3 allies altogether.

[SPoD]

That is a good point. It still seemed like a huge waste of life considering how he lost some expensive magic weapons (and presumably some other magic items) as well as 3 allies altogether.

It wasn't an efficient plan, it was a plan designed to bring about a very specific result, which almost succeeded. Nale's ego is such that everyone else (except maybe Sabine) is a pawn, to be sacrificed as necessary. Every resource he has is insignificant compared to the knowledge that his idiot brother beat him. And Nale didn't count on Pompey quitting, nor (necessarily) on Leeky being captured. The only calculated sacrifice was Thog, the others were merely acceptable losses. Worrying about magic items is a PC mentality, too; Nale would be willing to throw them all away to win against his brother.

Remember too that the plan only failed because Elan magically showed up with more powerful prestige class--a turn of events Nale could not have predicted. Consider that if Elan was just 5 minutes later, he would have crashed through the window to see Nale in the process of cutting Haley's still-warm heart out of her chest and sacrificing it to a demon. That would have been a huge win for Nale, to cause his brother that pain, even if he ended up getting killed afterwards (Sabine can always raise him later). It's all a matter of realizing that Nale is actually insane, and prioritizes causing Elan pain ahead of almost everything else.

[Logalmier]

The thing that makes me like Nale is that, not only is he the opposite of Elan, he's the polar opposite of XYCON.



Xycon is an overly powerful buffoon with a great/OP class. He wades into battles without any plan whatsoever, and attempts to brute force defeat them. Furthermore, he's so overwhelmingly strong that its only because of his idiocy that he's beatable.


Nale on the other hand is incredibly weak. He's near useless in a fight, not even being able to neutralize Pre-prestige class ELAN, and could only run in fear of Roy. However, he's still a competent villian due to pre-planning all his schemes out, only going in once he has things set up. While He may personally display stupidity, his plans do not, and they almost always fall into the mold of a Xanatos gambit; heck, he usually has a way to escape incarceration should they fail.




Nale is the Chessmaster type villian; Xycon is the Uber-god type villian (contrast Sylar with The organization in Heroes)

That is a very good analogy, I like it.

I agree with you paladinforsojo, Nale is probably the weakest character in OOTS that has a name,or at least is a recurring villain, but as krossbow said, what makes him dangerous is his ability to make complex plans, even if there all clichés.

as for the opposite of the DS class,
umm.... maby the Ugly Archer?

[Girl Wonder]

..., an "evil bard"? Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

Don't forget one of the grandaddies of them all... yes, I'm talking about...

The Pied Piper of Hamelin!

I mean, sure, he got a raw deal, but abducting an entire town of children over a contract dispute?

Evil bard for sure!

[Yendor]

It wasn't an efficient plan, it was a plan designed to bring about a very specific result, which almost succeeded. Nale's ego is such that everyone else (except maybe Sabine) is a pawn, to be sacrificed as necessary. Every resource he has is insignificant compared to the knowledge that his idiot brother beat him. And Nale didn't count on Pompey quitting, nor (necessarily) on Leeky being captured. The only calculated sacrifice was Thog, the others were merely acceptable losses. Worrying about magic items is a PC mentality, too; Nale would be willing to throw them all away to win against his brother.

He also forgot that Pompey couldn't have used a Sending scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) to contact him, because it's in one of his barred schools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html). So Pompey's quitting wasn't the problem. Guess Nale should have paid more attention to his allies.

[paladinofshojo]

You missed the entire point of the second battle.

Nale doesn't care about killing the OOTS, Nale cares about making Elan (and only Elan) suffer. Having Thog kill Elan would have defeated the point, because Elan would have been dead. You can't suffer when you're dead. Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, etc. only matter to Nale because they are Elan's friends, and Elan would know they were suffering. He considered it far more painful to Elan for him to sit in a jail cell, powerless, knowing that his brother was tricking them and killing them one by one, then to defeat them quickly in battle.

What makes Nale different from the other villains is that Nale's evil is the evil of inflicting personalized pain. Xykon will kill you because he's bored, Redcloak will kill you because you're opposing him, but Nale will slowly torture you to death while systematically destroying the things/people you cherish most in front of your eyes. Neither Xykon nor Redcloak will even bother learning what you cherish most!


Xykon nor Redcloak would try anything like that becuase 1) Redcloak has better things to do like starting up a goblin nation and planning the hobgoblin invasion of the next gate.....2)Xykon will probably lose the attention span and focus and rather kill the person for his own sick pleasures then move on to his next victim he doesn't really care about who suffers. Nale is not even a true villian is that he only hurts people who get in his way (directly or indirectly) Xykon on the otherhand is liable kill you, your friends, and your family for the hell of it and Redcloak would probably kill them becuase they're humans......
What happens when the villians stumble upon a village what would they do?

:nale: find out if it has something of value that I can use against my brother, if not cause a little mayham and move on to the next town

:redcloak: sluaghter the village's protectors and enslave the inhabitants and use my people's losses as justification for the deed

:xykon: kill them all for the hell of it!!!
I doubt Nale goes out of his way to make everyone he meets suffer....And another thing, Redcloak always comes up with a plan, but unlike Nale he has a reusable back up plan the epic-level-lich-blowing-up-the-enemy-plan so why does he need to think ahead of every situation when he already has a totally fool-proof plan behind the plan, the plan before it is just proof that he is serious enough to win to think of a solid strategy beforehand...... and seriously Xykon can take down a country by himself.....he's nothing but a shock-and-awe weapon...why does he even need a plan? The only thing I don't get is why does Nale focus on "style" rather then effective killing? He could be extremely competent if he actually spend his Exp points on ONE CLASS rather then multi-classing into a joke....and can he even afford to be as flamboyont as he is? Considering the fact that all he has is a bunch of bad cliches.......Xykon and Redcloak are waaay more competent villians, since they have the power, and the resources (an endless hobgoblin army and a conquered nation) to back it up, aswell as they have several testaments of their competence like take over an entire nation, slay the debatedly most powerful human wizard and the most powerful elven druid. Who has Nale and his cronies ever killed? A really bad parody? a bunch of nameless guards? This is why Nale is not a real villian but a dellusional fan boy who THINKS he's a villian, it's pretty sad really....For those of you who don't believe me....HE HANGS OUT IN ICECREAM PARLORS FOR GOD'S SAKE!:smallfurious:

[paladinofshojo]

What kind of evil villian hangs out in an icecream parlor?

[krossbow]

What kind of evil villian hangs out in an icecream parlor?



One who has a Orc underling with Unstoppable rage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnstoppableRage) to Keep under control, thats who. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

[paladinofshojo]

One who has a Orc underling with Unstoppable rage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnstoppableRage) to Keep under control, thats who. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

Ohhh like a true self-respecting villian actually cares about his underlings enough to actually feed them ice-cream......:smallannoyed: At any rate, a real villian doesn't need to use bribes to keep his underlings controlled but rather use FEAR! After all, he is an evil villian after all!

[Jayngfet]

Ohhh like a true self-respecting villian actually cares about his underlings enough to actually feed them ice-cream......:smallannoyed: At any rate, a real villian doesn't need to use bribes to keep his underlings controlled but rather use FEAR! After all, he is an evil villian after all!

One that has an underling that barely knows what it is, has no respect for sentient life, and is bigger, stronger, ad maybe faster than you.

Not every villan is a tyrant, some of them want to make friends, some of them just like dairy treats.

[Waspinator]

What is the evil opposite of a dashing swordman?

Card-Carrying Villain:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardCarryingVillain

[An Enemy Spy]

Ohhh like a true self-respecting villian actually cares about his underlings enough to actually feed them ice-cream......:smallannoyed: At any rate, a real villian doesn't need to use bribes to keep his underlings controlled but rather use FEAR! After all, he is an evil villian after all!

Thog is far too powerful and stupid control with fear. Plus he wouldn't carry out his orders with the same enthusiasm if he was afraid of him. Real life villians like Hitler and L Ron Hubbard had minions who loved them Yes, Nale isn't on par with Xykon and Redcloak but thats why he is a secondary villian. Trust me, anyone who kills 417 people just to make arrows on a map is a villian. Every time time I see you on here you are complaining about something. Sheesh!

[Brasswatchman]

Considering the fact that he had to waste all of his levels trying to be a "jack of all trades".............This is really pathetic since he wasted more levels needlessly complicated multi-classing to virtually get the same skills as his useless bardic twin without the perks.....Even if he took the easier road and became a bard in the first place he would have been laughed out of the 9 hells as a joke, an "evil bard"? Who has ever heard of an "evil bard"........:smallbiggrin:

Well, yeah. That's the joke.

[Kish]

Ohhh like a true self-respecting villian actually cares about his underlings enough to actually feed them ice-cream......:smallannoyed: At any rate, a real villian doesn't need to use bribes to keep his underlings controlled but rather use FEAR! After all, he is an evil villian after all!
I don't get it, paladinofshojo. Why do you seem unwilling to accept that there is more than one villain personality in all of fiction?

[Mauve Shirt]

Seriously, paladinofshojo, you seem determined to make all of the villains as unlikeable as possible. We all have to hate them, just because they're villains. We can't like Xykon's character because he's quite evil, and we can't like Nale's character because he's kinda stupid.

[krossbow]

ad maybe faster than you.



Oh, no doubt about it, Thog is DEFINITELY faster than Nale. He is a barbarian after all, so he gets +10 to his movement speed, meaning that Nale would need to use expeditious retreat to be able to get away. And since he'd have to stop for at least one standard action to cast that, Thog would be on top of him before he could do anything.





But on Villians. Usually, the villians people find most disturbing are the ones who control via Seemingly "good" ways. For example, brainwashing them into fanatical followers who follow out of love, respect, or some other method are very popular. Nothing worse than a minion who believes, wholeheartedly, that you are the only person who "cares" about them, and will therefor do ANYTHING to protect you or what you work for.



After all, look at emperor palapatine. One of the most despicable and terrifying visages of evil. Did he control Vader by Threatening him with death, torture, or any other mundane means? No, he kept him as a loyal soldier by twisting him up inside like ball of yarn, tugging at his emotions, offering false hopes and comforts, and stringing him along like puppet.







Furthermore, Villians who Rule via fear have a HORRIBLE habit of creating Starscream type characters. Look at Xycon and Redcloak for that matter; Redcloak is plotting Xycons destruction as we speak. Are Thog or Sabine planning on killing Nale once their goals have been reached, or are they in fact Stubbornly loyal allies ready to risk life and limb for them?



Unfortunately I can't find it at the moment, but the best way to illustrate this would be a poster i saw with A picture of the turks and Rufus Shinra back to back with the caption:
"Lawful Evil: Just because your an evil Bastard doesn't mean you can't have friends"

[PresidentEnder]

Hm.... It's hard to judge his plans... they are sooo old fashioned, ut it's right, they mainly failed by chance/luck/whatsoever. But still... e.g. when V tricked him into giving up his cover he just lost to his huge ego. It was just lame.

I'm not sure about his class combo, but I think an evil bard might work our just well... As already declared, he might use his songs/mind confusing spells to raid some villages... As the er... what is 'Rattenfänger von Hameln' in English? ^^' Rat hunter of Hamel or so, if you know the legend...

We translate that as "The Pied Piper of Hamelin." My German isn't terribly great, but a literal translation would be "The Ratcatcher of Hameln"