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View Full Version : Vow of Poverty, Broken or not?



BizzaroStormy
2008-06-05, 10:07 PM
Im willing to argue that it is not broken. I know that a few class abilities could make or break this argument so for neutralness im leaving class out of it except for the fact that costly spell components will cost your arcane caster with this feat 5xp per gold.

Solo
2008-06-05, 10:08 PM
VoP is underpowered, unless you're in a campaign with no magic items.

And you like to walk around naked and have other people to open doors for you.

TheLogman
2008-06-05, 10:15 PM
It's Impossible for VoP to be broken. I have the table (Which btw you're not allowed to post because it's trademarked protected information), and everything you get kind of makes up for basic magic items. Yes, you get boosts for attacks and defence, but much much less than a normal person. Yes, you get Ability boosts, some (very limited) feats, and protection from the elements.

With even reasonable spending of Wealth by Level, you can easily have double what a Vow of Poverty character gets.

Not to mention that it eliminates a number of classes just because. Fighters are denied +8 AC or more, plus weapons, Wizards can't have a spellbook, yes, Sorcerers can take Eschew Materials and cast normally, but they get no Charisma bonuses, making them WAY weaker than normal. Heck, by RAW, Clerics don't even get a Divine Focus, eliminating almost all their spells.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-05, 10:47 PM
ok, the table was a failure but my point still remains. In a game (unless you're doing no magic) items can make or break you.

@ Logman: Actually Eschew materials is pointless. A spell component pouch is one of the few items allowed so you can carry the cheap stuff but Eschew wont cover anything costing 1g or more. There are some ways around this stuff like tattooing your spellbook onto you. Other than that it mostly keeps you on par with a character equal to your level.

The Necroswanso
2008-06-05, 10:53 PM
Vow of poverty works well if you have levels in battle dancer, monk, fist of the wild, and duelist... My friend built such a character... Functionally, it was a little behind... But 29 AC even when flatfooted at level 10 was good. And that was with rolled stats.

Other than a monk or maybe druid though, it hurts too much.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-05, 11:01 PM
Vow of poverty works well if you have levels in battle dancer, monk, fist of the wild, and duelist... My friend built such a character... Functionally, it was a little behind... But 29 AC even when flatfooted at level 10 was good. And that was with rolled stats.

Other than a monk or maybe druid though, it hurts too much.

Thats the main reason I wasnt considering class. Things like monks and druids dont really need magic/expensive items as much as something like a fighter would.

I just dont see why DMs consider it overpowered though.

Temp.
2008-06-05, 11:06 PM
VoP can be used effectively if taken after characters have spent the entirity of their WBL on permanent magic items (grafts, stat increase tomes, that sort of thing).

Unfortunately, the longer the character goes after taking the feat, the worse the feat becomes.


Edit:

I just dont see why DMs consider it overpowered though.
Easy. When you look at a table detailing a character's WBL, you don't see a list of direct benefits. When you look at the VoP table, you do. This makes the mediocre VoP benefits appear to be greater than the WBL benefits (which require a bit of time and thought to understand).

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-05, 11:09 PM
VoP can be used effectively if taken after characters have spent the entirity of their WBL on permanent magic items (grafts, stat increase tomes, that sort of thing).

Unfortunately, the longer the character goes after taking the feat, the worse the feat becomes.

True but the tomes cost a lot and wouldn't offer much of a bonus unless you were in the high teens. Plus your GM might say "Ok, you're gonna have to cut your grafted ____ off. Dont worry, you have/will get regeneration anyway."

The_Snark
2008-06-05, 11:09 PM
As people will no doubt tell you, monks are just as reliant on magic items to keep up as other characters. It is true that they don't lose quite as much as a fighter who took the feat would, since they don't need weapons or armor, but they benefit just as much from bracers of armor, cloaks of resistance, winged boots, and all those other nifty items.

Druids are the exception, partly because most items aren't useful in wild shape and partly because even if wilding clasps are allowed, they're still just good enough to get away with it.

The other exception is incarnum-using classes. One of their vital class features will prevent you from wearing some magic items anyway, so Vow of Poverty simplifies things for them quite a bit.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-05, 11:15 PM
Right but then were talking about 2 or 3 classes in a vast sea of sourcebooks. Unless someone its trying specifically to break a class, I dont think VoP should be disallowed as much as it is.

The_Snark
2008-06-05, 11:18 PM
Oh, I agree with you; I don't think it's broken with Incarnum classes, even, since that is a very well-balanced system, and with druids I suspect it's more the class than the feat.

I haven't seen it banned in a game I'm in for a while myself, except by people who refuse to use the Book of Exalted Deeds at all.

Chronos
2008-06-06, 01:12 AM
Vow of Poverty is an extremely powerful feat, and probably the most advantageous feat in the game, provided that you realize how it's intended to be used. Its purpose isn't for people who say "I'm going to give up all my items so I can take this feat". Its purpose is for someone who voluntarily decides to give up items for other reasons (presumably relating to roleplaying). Sometimes, it's fun to play a character who has forsaken the temptation of worldly things, but unfortunately, the way the rules of the game work, such a character would be cripplingly underpowered. With this feat, though, you can go from nearly powerless to being within shouting distance of a normal power level, while maintaining your character concept. And you're not actually giving up anything for that benefit, since your character would have been giving up items anyway.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-06, 01:44 AM
Giving up my items anyway? So you're basically saying that all it does is allow my character some fluff points while staying at least close to his/her normal level of crunch?

I mean, in the long run, there are a few pretty awesome bonuses like the +8/+6/+4/+2 ability bonuses. Another thing it that people seem to be missing is that while it may make you underpowered as an individual, it makes the group awesome. In a standard group of 4 people, the other memebers of the group get 33.33% of the loot instead of 25%. Another positive is that since you have no items, in the event you are captured and stripped of your items, you can pull a solid snake and get some bonus XP for awesomeness.

tyckspoon
2008-06-06, 01:49 AM
Another thing it that people seem to be missing is that while it may make you underpowered as an individual, it makes the group awesome. In a standard group of 4 people, the other memebers of the group get 33.33% of the loot instead of 25%.

Not really. It requires you to claim your normal share of treasure anyway; you just can't use it for anything. You have to donate it to charities, churches, and other things that start with ch-. You're allowed to take the items nobody else wants or can use, which can make divvying up a haul easier, but it doesn't improve anybody else's split.

Jarlax
2008-06-06, 01:55 AM
Im willing to argue that it is not broken. I know that a few class abilities could make or break this argument so for neutralness im leaving class out of it except for the fact that costly spell components will cost your arcane caster with this feat 5xp per gold.

like most of the vows VoP was designed to allow your PC to operate in some classical religions stereotypes. VoP is designed for your classic beggar monk, the ones with rags and maybe a staff. and nothing else. if you tried this normally the first monster with DR/magic would hold you down and do terrible things to you.

at best VoP allows you to stay on-par with your party. but very few people will tell you that it is broken, because it really isn't. especially with the release of Magic item Compendium which has a lot of items that create amazing effects no class powers can replicate.

Ixtli
2008-06-06, 02:14 AM
Vow of Poverty is an extremely powerful feat, and probably the most advantageous feat in the game, provided that you realize how it's intended to be used. Its purpose isn't for people who say "I'm going to give up all my items so I can take this feat". Its purpose is for someone who voluntarily decides to give up items for other reasons (presumably relating to roleplaying). Sometimes, it's fun to play a character who has forsaken the temptation of worldly things, but unfortunately, the way the rules of the game work, such a character would be cripplingly underpowered. With this feat, though, you can go from nearly powerless to being within shouting distance of a normal power level, while maintaining your character concept. And you're not actually giving up anything for that benefit, since your character would have been giving up items anyway.

I totally agree with Chronos.

About game mechanics I think that VoP could help some kind classes (as other people wrote) more than others, first of all monks.
According to me this feat is not unbalancing, but maybe sometimes DM could ban this feat because it could became overpowered (i.e. in low magic campaigns).
Also the truesight ability is very powerful, according to me.

Eldariel
2008-06-06, 02:22 AM
The problem with the feat is that it stops you from dealing with damage reductions, alternative forms of movement (most importantly flying) and makes incorporeals difficult. Basically, a caster can get by those, but a straight Monk is crippled, which basically leaves Druid as the only class to really benefit of it (and even then, items would probably be more powerful).

If your DM agrees to give you a Su ability to Fly at some point, or you've got nice party mages casting such for you, it'll be much better already (or just delve into the Sacred Fist-class). Of course, it makes for interesting characters, but generally it's not nice to be crippled no matter how interesting you are.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-06, 05:00 AM
Thats the main reason I wasnt considering class. Things like monks and druids dont really need magic/expensive items as much as something like a fighter would.
It's hilarious how people keep assuming that monk with vow of poverty is somehow a good combo. It's one of those things that look like it should make sense on paper, and from a flavor point of view, but mechanically it is made of FAIL. The monk is in fact one of the most item-dependent classes ever. People need to think beyond first impressions to get this one.


I just dont see why DMs consider it overpowered though.
Oh, that's easy. It reads like it's overpowered, because it is a huge amount of bonuses for a single feat. So yeah, at first glance, it's certainly overpowered; it takes a bit of deeper reading to notice those bonuses aren't really that special compared to half a million gold's worth of items. Again, people need to think beyond first impressions to get this.


Not really. It requires you to claim your normal share of treasure anyway; you just can't use it for anything. You have to donate it to charities, churches, and other things that start with ch-.
Chthulhu?

Kizara
2008-06-06, 05:19 AM
I'll throw my hat into the "its not overpowered" camp, and I have pretty strict standards about that sort of thing.

Some other reasons DMs (like myself), might ban it:

1) It doesn't go with the gameplay style of the group. If your group is a bunch of materialistic mercenaries, a VoP character might clash so much that it lowers peoples fun.


2) Versimilatude. You forsake items so you get all these abilities? Really? Devoting yourself to a divine path and getting blessings from it sounds a whole lot more like a class to me.


3) It's an Exalted feat (IIRC) afterall, and your campaign might be more about moral ambiguity or even be evil-oriented. Thus, unsuitable.


4) Low/No-Magic setting. This has been covered by others.


5) The BoED isn't very well written or balanced, and is an understandable ban. It says something that even though most campaigns aren't super-evil, and it's 3.0, the BoVD has more useful material in general (although most of its PrCs suck). Mind you the BoED isn't Complete Champion. It's bad, but its not a joke.

Duke of URL
2008-06-06, 07:13 AM
From a balance standpoint, the general consensus is that VoP is somewhat underpowered in a normal-magic environment. A lower the availability of magic items makes it more powerful, a high-magic game makes it less powerful.

The one thing that can skew this is the bonus feats. If you design the character (and have good enough stats!) around the possible Exalted feats, you could become pretty powerful indeed.

Eldariel
2008-06-06, 08:03 AM
Mind you the BoED isn't Complete Champion. It's bad, but its not a joke.

Wait, what's this stuff about Complete Champion? Did someone break the game with it while I wasn't watching or what have I missed?

Telonius
2008-06-06, 09:35 AM
A VoP Druid can be a holy terror. But that's because Druids are powerful, not because VoP is.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-06, 09:51 AM
A VoP Druid can be a holy terror. But that's because Druids are powerful, not because VoP is.Vow of Poverty pushes Druids out from "overpowered" to "Yikes!" territory. A good chunk of that is that the Vow of Poverty keeps acting in all forms taken (as it's a feat), where as standard wealth for a Druid mostly only works in normal form. When you tack on to that the little issue that a Druid has spells and Wildshape that can pick up the slack from not having specialty magic items for particular purposes (e.g., Boots of Flying) and suddenly there's very little, if any, drawbacks for the Druid. Splash a level or two of Monk (initial path - a Lawful-Good Monk-1 or Monk-2 drifts to Neutral-Good and starts taking levels in Druid), and the VoP Druid really rocks the house.

The Sorcerer and Cleric are likewise okay with Vow of Poverty, but again - that's primarily because they can simply take spells to cover the abilities that the Vow of Poverty doesn't provide that you'd normally get from wealth (flight, invisibility, and teleportation are the big three). They don't get crazy-good, though, for the simple reason that it cuts off a lot of the stronger spells.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-06, 10:14 AM
Vow of Poverty keeps acting in all forms taken (as it's a feat), where as standard wealth for a Druid mostly only works in normal form.

Yes, unless you enhance all of your equipment with the Wilding Clasps from (iirc) the Magic Item Compendium. Yes, that's cheesy.

hamishspence
2008-06-06, 10:18 AM
Cleric spells:there is a spell in Complete Champion that allows you to summon a holy symbol (and you do not need one to actually cast that spell) Maybe intended to fix the VoP problem? Temporary items do not break the VoP.

Indon
2008-06-06, 11:34 AM
It's hilarious how people keep assuming that monk with vow of poverty is somehow a good combo. It's one of those things that look like it should make sense on paper, and from a flavor point of view, but mechanically it is made of FAIL. The monk is in fact one of the most item-dependent classes ever. People need to think beyond first impressions to get this one.

With the sole exception of flight speed (which is the problem with VoP for most classes), the feat gives as much of or more of what the Monk needs at any given level compared to WBL - particularly in AC, and stats.

But, in any case. Flight is the big stickler for Vow of Poverty. Without flight, it's potentially underpowered. With flight, it's solid. In very specific circumstances, it can be overpowered.

Eldariel
2008-06-06, 11:38 AM
Basically, it's really really good on the first levels (especially for characters that can't normally use equipment on level 1 such as the Monk; they'll get boosts as if they were using equipment as per normal) and starts to get progressively worse as the WPL starts to get more powerful (in other words, usable on more powerful things than simple boosts).

Talya
2008-06-06, 01:17 PM
Ways to make VOP both viable and awesome from level 1:

(1) See link in signature.
(2) Druid.
(3) Raptorran Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 8/Shadow Sun Ninja 10. (Feel free to substitute in three-four levels of Kensei if you want a "metalline" body.)
(4) ...uh...huh. Still thinking.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-06, 01:55 PM
You can make a passable psion/erudite etc. with VoP, as well as the aformentioned Incarnate.

Also, VoP mystic swordsages, as I can tell from personal experience, are very fun.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-06, 04:07 PM
Yes, unless you enhance all of your equipment with the Wilding Clasps from (iirc) the Magic Item Compendium. Yes, that's cheesy.
It also gets expensive rather quickly, at 10k per Clasp. At 20th, that's not so much of a big deal. At 15th, 10th, or 5th, on the other hand, that's a very big chunk of change if you need all your items functioning.

monty
2008-06-06, 04:55 PM
Not really. It requires you to claim your normal share of treasure anyway; you just can't use it for anything. You have to donate it to charities, churches, and other things that start with ch-. You're allowed to take the items nobody else wants or can use, which can make divvying up a haul easier, but it doesn't improve anybody else's split.

I forgot where I saw it, but you can use the wealth you donate to churches to "buy" wishes and so on, which makes your money somewhat useful.

sikyon
2008-06-06, 05:35 PM
Vow of Poverty pushes Druids out from "overpowered" to "Yikes!" territory. A good chunk of that is that the Vow of Poverty keeps acting in all forms taken (as it's a feat), where as standard wealth for a Druid mostly only works in normal form. When you tack on to that the little issue that a Druid has spells and Wildshape that can pick up the slack from not having specialty magic items for particular purposes (e.g., Boots of Flying) and suddenly there's very little, if any, drawbacks for the Druid. Splash a level or two of Monk (initial path - a Lawful-Good Monk-1 or Monk-2 drifts to Neutral-Good and starts taking levels in Druid), and the VoP Druid really rocks the house.



Actually Druids get the most out of VoP but still come out ahead with items. I believe wilding clasps can get around wildshape restrictions, and ape form allows you to still wear most of your items. Search for VoP druids. You just have to be creative as a druid to use items while as an animal.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-06, 05:55 PM
Actually Druids get the most out of VoP but still come out ahead with items. I believe wilding clasps can get around wildshape restrictions, and ape form allows you to still wear most of your items. Search for VoP druids. You just have to be creative as a druid to use items while as an animal.
They can and they can't.

See, it's strictly up to the DM to determine what items can and can not be worn in a particular form - and as the Wildshape Errata says everything merges, many DM's won't let you disrobe, change, then put everything back on and still have it work - regardless of what the player sees as being reasonable. Likewise, with the Wilding Clasp (having just looked it up, it's 4k, not the 10k I remembered) just says it keeps items that could reasonably be worn by the new form from merging - if your DM accepts Wilding Clasps, they can be duplicated merely by removing items, then wildshaping, then putting the items back on.

Besides - a pooch dressed up in a Cloak of Resistance can't sneak around in a city nearly as well as a pooch that doesn't need such trappings.

Signmaker
2008-06-06, 06:44 PM
Vow of Poverty is useful, in that if your DM isn't a jerk and readjusts treasure values, you're being a team player by letting your party get more loot. Meanwhile, you stay somewhat viable (Hey, at least you don't DIE), and the extra loot will let your tanks slaughter more, your rogues sneak more, your batmen, you get the drift.

However, don't fall in to the trap of getting it early just for 'extra exalted feats'. If you don't intend to use said feats, it's better keeping your WBL for awhile and maybe buying a Tome or Manual or something.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-06, 06:53 PM
Vow of Poverty is useful, in that if your DM isn't a jerk and readjusts treasure values, you're being a team player by letting your party get more loot. Meanwhile, you stay somewhat viable (Hey, at least you don't DIE), and the extra loot will let your tanks slaughter more, your rogues sneak more, your batmen, you get the drift.Catch: You're still required to take your fair share - you need to give it to charity. Run as intended, you're not increasing the wealth of everyone else in the party.

monty
2008-06-06, 06:56 PM
Catch: You're still required to take your fair share - you need to give it to charity. Run as intended, you're not increasing the wealth of everyone else in the party.

You can still get stuff from the donations, though. Found the reference: BoED, page 29, under Tithes and Offerings.

Edit: If I did the math right, you can get a Wish after donating 26530gp to your temple or whatever, which is cheaper than a +1 Tome or Manual. Alternately, you could get a Gate for 6530 (plus whatever for the other spells you need; I don't feel like calculating it all) and get 3 wishes for even cheaper.

sonofzeal
2008-06-06, 06:59 PM
VoP is decent. Like any complex option it has its good uses and bad uses. It works well with Sorcs, Druids, Monks, Incarnum users, Psions, Soulknives, and a few others. It's horrible for Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, Wizards, Samurai, and a few others. I've played VoP characters and enjoyed it, and didn't feel like I was lagging behind in any way.

Something that needs to be said though - the vow is supposed to be a RESTRICTION. You're not SUPPOSED to come out ahead; the whole idea is a voluntary limitation. If you're taking it as part of an abusive combo, you're missing the point and liable to have the gods refuse to give you the bonuses.

monty
2008-06-06, 07:04 PM
It's horrible for...Clerics...

Why do you say that? I've played several VoP clerics and never been significantly weaker than the rest of the party. Probably the same goes for wizards (unless you have a stupid DM that won't let you use a spellbook), but I've never played one, so I can't say from experience.

sonofzeal
2008-06-06, 07:44 PM
Why do you say that? I've played several VoP clerics and never been significantly weaker than the rest of the party. Probably the same goes for wizards (unless you have a stupid DM that won't let you use a spellbook), but I've never played one, so I can't say from experience.
A few reasons, really.

1) A Cleric's first job (in theory) is keeping everyone at full health, and VoP removes Wands, which are a major source of healing past 2nd lvl. Even if he's going Czilla, the loss of weapons/rods/scrolls really hurts.

2) A Cleric's second job is to keep himself alive and safe, and VoP hurts more for him than for others because of the loss of heavy armor.

3) Technically, I believe the Holy Symbol is not allowed. Most DMs will be merciful on this (I would, at least; it's only 1 gp, and fits thematically), but it's still against the rules.


As to Wizards... well, it really does violate the VoP conditions, both in the letter and the spirit of the rules. A Holy Symbol is only a gp or so, but even a 1st lvl spellbook can be sold for pretty impressive sums of money. A VoP character should be dedicating all their wealth to charities (including churches), and a VoP Wizard would be morally obligated to sell off his spellbook in the same way a VoP Warrior would have to sell his sword and armor. I see no reason why Wizards could possibly be expected to get an exception to that when nobody else does. Would you let a Paladin keep his Saddle (20 gp) or a CW Samurai keep his katana (335 gp)? If so, I think you're removing the whole essence of the Vow.

Talya
2008-06-07, 08:26 AM
3) Technically, I believe the Holy Symbol is not allowed. Most DMs will be merciful on this (I would, at least; it's only 1 gp, and fits thematically), but it's still against the rules.


Once again, this isn't true, as you can turn anything into a holy symbol.

You could, for instance, scratch a holy symbol into a simple weapon, like a staff. It then serves as a holy symbol (although it cost you significantly more than a gold peice.) However, you're explicitly allowed to carry a simple weapon.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 09:23 AM
Once again, this isn't true, as you can turn anything into a holy symbol.Do you have a page reference on that?

Chronicled
2008-06-07, 09:39 AM
1) A Cleric's first job (in theory) is keeping everyone at full health, and VoP removes Wands, which are a major source of healing past 2nd lvl. Even if he's going Czilla, the loss of weapons/rods/scrolls really hurts.

The Healing Touch reserve feat would be a good remedy for this, letting you heal everyone back up to half health for free.


3) Technically, I believe the Holy Symbol is not allowed. Most DMs will be merciful on this (I would, at least; it's only 1 gp, and fits thematically), but it's still against the rules.


As to Wizards... well, it really does violate the VoP conditions, both in the letter and the spirit of the rules. A Holy Symbol is only a gp or so, but even a 1st lvl spellbook can be sold for pretty impressive sums of money. A VoP character should be dedicating all their wealth to charities (including churches), and a VoP Wizard would be morally obligated to sell off his spellbook in the same way a VoP Warrior would have to sell his sword and armor. I see no reason why Wizards could possibly be expected to get an exception to that when nobody else does. Would you let a Paladin keep his Saddle (20 gp) or a CW Samurai keep his katana (335 gp)? If so, I think you're removing the whole essence of the Vow.

Tattoos in both cases, perhaps? Kind of hard to sell those. And if the wizard isn't spending money to tattoo further spells on his body (using only the ones levelling gives him)--or has some other means of adding them that doesn't conflict with the Vow, then he should be fine.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 09:47 AM
The Healing Touch reserve feat would be a good remedy for this, letting you heal everyone back up to half health for free.

It alleviates it somewhat - if you really want to remove the need for Wands of Cure Light, try Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) Mass Lesser Vigor. Fast Healing 1 for the entire party for 24 hours.

monty
2008-06-07, 12:39 PM
Do you have a page reference on that?


Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

Never says it has to be the 1gp wooden symbol in the equipment list. It is specifically a symbol (not an item) appropriate to your faith. And a symbol can be put on just about any surface. Personally, my favorite is a tattoo, even with a non-VoP cleric.

Talya
2008-06-07, 12:40 PM
Do you have a page reference on that?


Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of
spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a
holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. For an evil cleric,
the divine focus is an unholy symbol. The default divine focus for a
druid or a ranger is a sprig of mistletoe or holly.


Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden: A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead. Each religion has its own holy symbol,
and a sun symbol is the default holy symbol for clerics not associated
with any particular religion.
A silver holy symbol works no better than a wooden one, but it
serves as a mark of status for the wielder.

While most symbols are made out of silver (inappropriate to a VOP character), they can be made out of wood. All a holy symbol is, is the symbol of your deity carved into a peice of silver or wood. They are not magical, there's nothing special about their construction. Quarterstaffs are made of wood. Carve the symbol of your god into a quarterstaff, and presto! Simple weapon holy symbol.

Chronos
2008-06-07, 03:40 PM
Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance.Sure, I could have a holy symbol on the end of my quarterstaff, but that would be an item which is worth 1 GP. I'm not allowed any items with a GP cost other than those specifically listed, and a holy symbol is not specifically listed. Granted, it probably should be (so long as it's made out of something humble like wood, instead of silver), but by the rules, it isn't.

For comparison, would you allow a VoP character to have a Staff of the Archmagi? It's a quarterstaff, and a simple weapon is explicitly allowed by the rules. It's even nonmagical, as a weapon.

Talya
2008-06-07, 03:58 PM
Sure, I could have a holy symbol on the end of my quarterstaff, but that would be an item which is worth 1 GP. I'm not allowed any items with a GP cost other than those specifically listed, and a holy symbol is not specifically listed.

However, it's a simple weapon. And simple weapons are specifically listed.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 04:36 PM
However, it's a simple weapon. And simple weapons are specifically listed.
I suspect Chronos' point is that the carved staff is not the item "Holy Symbol" even though it's been carved.

monty
2008-06-07, 04:45 PM
Even if you technically can't have a holy symbol, I'd put that under "RAW is stupid sometimes." I highly doubt they intended to have VoP make divine casters useless.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 04:54 PM
Even if you technically can't have a holy symbol, I'd put that under "RAW is stupid sometimes." I highly doubt they intended to have VoP make divine casters useless.
It doesn't make them completely useless - just removes about half their spells (of the Cleric SRD 1st level spells, they keep: Cause Fear, Command, Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Inflict Light Wounds, Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear, and Shield of Faith - 10 spells of either 24 or 27, depending on how you want to count the Protection From [Alignment] spells - oh yeah, and Curse Water / Bless Water do not have a Divine Focus, just an expensive material component)

But yes - it is an oversight. Just like how technically a Vow of Poverty character can't use a doorknob to go through an unlocked door.

Draz74
2008-06-07, 04:59 PM
I suspect Chronos' point is that the carved staff is not the item "Holy Symbol" even though it's been carved.

Or that, once you carve a symbol in it, it's no longer merely a simple weapon. It's a simple weapon that also has another function, and is too valuable for you to keep.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 05:04 PM
Or that, once you carve a symbol in it, it's no longer merely a simple weapon. It's a simple weapon that also has another function, and is too valuable for you to keep.
That would do it too, yes. Perhaps the Vow of Poverty could be house-ruled to something like "no more than 5 gp value in any one item, and no more than 20 gp in items total" or something along those lines, rather than giving a highly specific list.

sonofzeal
2008-06-07, 09:26 PM
While most symbols are made out of silver (inappropriate to a VOP character), they can be made out of wood. All a holy symbol is, is the symbol of your deity carved into a peice of silver or wood. They are not magical, there's nothing special about their construction. Quarterstaffs are made of wood. Carve the symbol of your god into a quarterstaff, and presto! Simple weapon holy symbol.
So you're basically attaching your Holy Symbol (1 gp) to your quarterstaff (0 gp) as a way to get around the restriction? So can someone glue a +5 Dagger of Awesomeness to their staff and call it a day (or a "spear")?

As for tattoos, that falls under the same logic as Grafts; it still has a gp value associated with it, whether or not it's a physically distinct item. That's assuming a tattoo is an acceptable example of a Divine Focus, which is not at all certain. I mean, nothing's keeping you from covering yourself in the sigils of your deity, but when something is required for casting magic then it generally pays to be specific. A sorc can't substitute the "bat guano" requirement of Fireball by saying he's got feces in his intestines, y'know?

Anyway, point is that most DMs will give you a way out (same as how most DMs won't make the Druid's holly-and-mistletoe rot), but it IS against the rules of the vow.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 09:28 PM
So you're basically attaching your Holy Symbol (1 gp) to your quarterstaff (0 gp) as a way to get around the restriction? So can someone glue a +5 Dagger of Awesomeness to their staff and call it a day (or a "spear")?

As for tattoos, that falls under the same logic as Grafts; it still has a gp value associated with it, whether or not it's a physically distinct item. That's assuming a tattoo is an acceptable example of a Divine Focus, which is not at all certain. I mean, nothing's keeping you from covering yourself in the sigils of your deity, but when something is required for casting magic then it generally pays to be specific. A sorc can't substitute the "bat guano" requirement of Fireball by saying he's got feces in his intestines, y'know?

If he's not a bat, no. :smalltongue:

monty
2008-06-07, 11:08 PM
Well, on the off-chance you're right, I see a new business opportunity. Buy an arbitrary number of quarterstaves for 0 gp, find some way to quickly carve holy symbols into all of them, and sell them for 1 gp each. It's even better than turning ladders into 10 foot poles.

Aquillion
2008-06-07, 11:45 PM
Vow of Poverty is an extremely powerful feat, and probably the most advantageous feat in the game, provided that you realize how it's intended to be used. Its purpose isn't for people who say "I'm going to give up all my items so I can take this feat". Its purpose is for someone who voluntarily decides to give up items for other reasons (presumably relating to roleplaying). Sometimes, it's fun to play a character who has forsaken the temptation of worldly things, but unfortunately, the way the rules of the game work, such a character would be cripplingly underpowered. With this feat, though, you can go from nearly powerless to being within shouting distance of a normal power level, while maintaining your character concept. And you're not actually giving up anything for that benefit, since your character would have been giving up items anyway.I dunno, I kinda disagree. Sure, it'd be nice to have something to support your roleplaying... but VoP is so restrictive that it's not very useful to most people. I mean, if you didn't know about the feat, how often would you even want to play a character who owns and uses no objects at all, even to the risk of their own life or the lives of others?

I can see wanting to play a Barbarian who doesn't want to be completely decked out with magic items -- maybe just your father's (masterwork, but non-magical) sword, and one or two trinkets given to you by the old hag in your village for protection, or an ascetic cleric who relies on their deity to provide most things. Maybe my Ranger or Rogue is Robin Hood -- keeping just enough gold to keep himself fed, maintain his bow, and buy arrows, but nothing else, while giving the vast majority of what he steals to the poor. With most of these builds, if I need to use a potion of flying to save the day, I'd grit my teeth and do it.

But VoP doesn't let you do that. Your VoP paladin can't even carry a single healing potion for emergencies, not even if you intend to use it on other people. Your VoP Barbarian doesn't get a sword at all. Your VoP Robin Hood can't use a bow. There are a lot of decent 'low-equipment' character concepts out there; but I don't think there are very many 'no-equipment' character concepts out there.

Like a lot of the stuff in the BoED, the VoP is too strict to really be useful for most character concepts, even ignoring its balance.

(Perhaps we should make a "Financial Obligation" feat -- or even a flaw -- that indicates that you have to give a certain percentage of your wealth away, and are limited in the most expensive things you can own and keep? Maybe you're donating it to the poor, or tithing it to your church, or sending it back to your family in Mexico or whatever, but that's up to the character background. It obviously wouldn't have as big an impact as VoP or give as many advantages, but I think it could be much more useful if well-balanced.)

Chronos
2008-06-08, 12:28 AM
I dunno, I kinda disagree. Sure, it'd be nice to have something to support your roleplaying... but VoP is so restrictive that it's not very useful to most people. I mean, if you didn't know about the feat, how often would you even want to play a character who owns and uses no objects at all, even to the risk of their own life or the lives of others?I created not one, but two such characters in 2nd edition (both clerics). The terms of their poverty didn't quite match the Vow of Poverty restrictions, but they were pretty close. And, of course, I didn't have the feat to make up for the disadvantages.

dspeyer
2008-06-08, 01:29 PM
A lot of people here have pointed out VoP's weakness compared to WBL. I'll point out one strength. If I've read the rules right, VoP stat bonuses count for skills and spells-per-day, while headband of intellect and its ilk don't. If you're building a character where one of those is vital, VoP may be an advantage.

Also, of course, if you lack body slots, like a Coautl character I statted once.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-08, 01:39 PM
A lot of people here have pointed out VoP's weakness compared to WBL. I'll point out one strength. If I've read the rules right, VoP stat bonuses count for skills and spells-per-day, while headband of intellect and its ilk don't. If you're building a character where one of those is vital, VoP may be an advantage.You're not reading them quite right - it's the spells Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor that don't affect spells-per-day - the Headband of Intellect, Peripat of Wisdom, and Cloak of Charisma that are based on those spells do affect bonus spell slots

However, you're right on the skills, at least in regards to the Headband of Intellect - the Headband of Intellect specifically says it doesn't affect skills, while the Vow of Poverty ability boost has no such restriction. Interesting, I never noticed that before.

Vexxation
2008-06-09, 06:15 PM
Okay, I'd just like to say that after finally cracking the BoED, I really like Vow of Poverty. I don't care about viability.. I just like it.

Here's why:
What I want is to have a good-serving, peaceful diplomat who can still handle himself in a fight. Unfortunately, most diplomats to extremely hostile locations will be frisked and weapons removed. That or additional guards on the armed guys. My idea is to take my two favorite classes and hybridize them into an unarmed soldier of peace.

No killing here, folks. Subdue and capture is what counts.
And no, my favorite classes do not include monk. I speak of the Warlock Soulknife.

Why?
If I'm human, I can take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at level one, then my additional Exalted feat can be Subdued Strike.

There, now I can choose to not kill.
Level two, Soulknife, grabbing Vow of Nonviolence (Exalted bonus)
Level three, Warlock, grabbing Beguiling Influence and and any metamagic feat
Level Four, Warlock, grab Vow of Peace (Exalted bonus)
Level Five, Warlock, no feat. Grab a useful invocation.
Level Six, Warlock. Grab Nonlethal Substitution. Bam. Now Eldritch blast is nonlethal.

Continue Warlock until Warlock 6 (CL 8) when Fel Flight is taken.
Now Soulknife the rest of the way.

Now, what I've assembled is a flying at-will (for 24 hours) character who cannot own goods, cannot deal lethal damage, and cannot forsake those vows.

What good is he?
Well, even at cross-class he has a decent diplomacy, helped by his hopefully-okay Cha (needed for flight, anyway). Beguiling Influence adds 6, Vow of Peace adds some too. So a pretty decent Diplomacy score for two cross-classes.

He is also, in my opinion, a wonderful diplomat to send when conflict is imminent; he can't kill them, but as an unarmed peasant, who could expect much? Until he free-actions his mind blades (dual) and strikes the nearest foe for nonlethal damage, hopefully incapacitating him. If challenged, he can either stay in combat (excellent unarmored AC, with good dex thanks to VoPoverty's bonuses to stats), or fly away, Nonlethal Eldritch-blasting his enemies. If he chooses to fight, there's a chance any weapon that *hits* him will shatter on contact (VoPeace).

I think that's a great Idea. Gain the trust of the evil lord (diplomacy), enter "unarmed," wait for the opportunity and Nonlethal the hell out of him. Fly away, either with him captured or incapacitated, to show that his opponents are powerful.

Is a display of power considered evil, such as leaving a battered-but-not-dying bad guy in his room to think about what could have been done to him?

tyckspoon
2008-06-09, 06:37 PM
Is a display of power considered evil, such as leaving a battered-but-not-dying bad guy in his room to think about what could have been done to him?

No, but gaining somebody's trust for the purpose of abusing it (as in "I'm a peaceful diplomat! You can relax around me!" *WHACK*) is. And initiating combat, even non-lethal combat, is against the spirit if not the letter of the Vows (I haven't gone back to the book in a while, so I don't remember exactly how restrictive Peace is.)

Vexxation
2008-06-09, 06:46 PM
No, but gaining somebody's trust for the purpose of abusing it (as in "I'm a peaceful diplomat! You can relax around me!" *WHACK*) is. And initiating combat, even non-lethal combat, is against the spirit if not the letter of the Vows (I haven't gone back to the book in a while, so I don't remember exactly how restrictive Peace is.)
Oh, all right, no lying to gain trust then stabbing.
But he's still combat capable if it turns sour, which it very well could, if dealing with evil.

On Peace: No causing harm... but nonlethal is okay.
On Nonviolence: Same thing.

And no incapacitating for the purpose of others killing them.

Yeah... nothing on initiating combat that I see...
Odd that Peace wouldn't include, "you can't start a fight."
Apparently because nonlethal damage is... erm... not lethal, it doesn't really harm them. It hurts for a bit, but no lasting harm.

sonofzeal
2008-06-09, 07:16 PM
Oh, all right, no lying to gain trust then stabbing.
But he's still combat capable if it turns sour, which it very well could, if dealing with evil.

On Peace: No causing harm... but nonlethal is okay.
On Nonviolence: Same thing.

And no incapacitating for the purpose of others killing them.

Yeah... nothing on initiating combat that I see...
Odd that Peace wouldn't include, "you can't start a fight."
Apparently because nonlethal damage is... erm... not lethal, it doesn't really harm them. It hurts for a bit, but no lasting harm.
Indeed. Other valid options include trip-lockdown and allies. Technically, I believe even a VoPeace Druid's animal companion can deal lethal damage. Still, a DM's within their rights to rule on situations like that.

Chronos
2008-06-09, 07:17 PM
I'm not sure I see the point of combining Warlock and Soulknife. At any given moment, you're using either your eldritch blast, or your brain sword, but not both. Why not just focus on one or the other?

Vexxation
2008-06-09, 07:29 PM
I'm not sure I see the point of combining Warlock and Soulknife. At any given moment, you're using either your eldritch blast, or your brain sword, but not both. Why not just focus on one or the other?

Mostly for fun. I like the idea of having a more "effective" ranged weapon than, "I throw a knife at you." Instead, "I fire a blast of eldritch energy at you."

Plus, Eldritch blast is touch-based, so it bypasses AC easier than Mindblades do when thrown.
It basically boils down to this: I wanted a Vow of Poverty Soulknife who could fly. And warlock lets me do that. Added bonus is the dr/Cold iron and the eldritch blast, as well as beguiling influence and whatever else is taken.

Then there's the fun of describing your backhistory as someone who made a mistake, accepting eldritch power in return for that whole tainted soul thing, then later being a champion of good.
And with real creativity, you might be able to justify it from level one.

The_Snark
2008-06-09, 07:42 PM
The only problem is that unless you can convince your DM to stack the exalted weapon bonus from Vow of Poverty with the soulknife's weapon bonuses, the soulknife's bonus becomes almost completely redundant... and seeing as that's one of the class's few selling points, that's bad. It would probably be easier to go with a simple warlock, using Eldritch Glaive as a melee weapon.

Chronos
2008-06-09, 07:48 PM
It basically boils down to this: I wanted a Vow of Poverty Soulknife who could fly. And warlock lets me do that.More to the point, warlock lets you do that even without Soulknife. When you manifest Eldritch Glaive, just say "It manifests through the focused power of my mind", rather than "it manifests through the pact my ancestors made with demons", or whatever.

sonofzeal
2008-06-09, 07:48 PM
Mostly for fun. I like the idea of having a more "effective" ranged weapon than, "I throw a knife at you." Instead, "I fire a blast of eldritch energy at you."

Plus, Eldritch blast is touch-based, so it bypasses AC easier than Mindblades do when thrown.
It basically boils down to this: I wanted a Vow of Poverty Soulknife who could fly. And warlock lets me do that. Added bonus is the dr/Cold iron and the eldritch blast, as well as beguiling influence and whatever else is taken.

Then there's the fun of describing your backhistory as someone who made a mistake, accepting eldritch power in return for that whole tainted soul thing, then later being a champion of good.
And with real creativity, you might be able to justify it from level one.
Oh, the Warlock side is certainly helping you. I think he's suggesting that you'd be better of going all the way into Warlock. Soulknife is widely concidered one of the worst base classes around (comparable with CW Samurai, Truenamer, and Healer), while Warlock is solidly decent, and your build already has more Warlock than Soulknife in it. If you like the flavour of materializing a weapon of mental energy, why don't you pick up Eldritch Glaive (or even Hideous Blow on your fist) and reflavour it as appropriate? Nothing's keeping you from changing the description/logic behind an ability as long as you maintain the mechanics.

Vexxation
2008-06-09, 09:06 PM
My problem, I guess, is in trying to play an effective Soulknife. I don't know why, but I just really like the class. It's weak, and I get that, but I dunno. Going warlock fully is gonna be more effective, I get that too...

But really, is a Warlock 20 going to fit the whole "Exalted" idea well? I mean, sure, they might work for some people, but I'm a stickler for the old image of a warlock cackling as an orphanage burns.

Oh well. It's really just food for thought; I don't currently play. I just like to theorize. I'm sure if I statted it out I could find a great many tweaks, and would eventually give up and play the warlock if given the chance.

I just really like Soulknife. I'll have to look for a non-suck homebrew.

sonofzeal
2008-06-09, 09:26 PM
My problem, I guess, is in trying to play an effective Soulknife. I don't know why, but I just really like the class. It's weak, and I get that, but I dunno. Going warlock fully is gonna be more effective, I get that too...

But really, is a Warlock 20 going to fit the whole "Exalted" idea well? I mean, sure, they might work for some people, but I'm a stickler for the old image of a warlock cackling as an orphanage burns.

Oh well. It's really just food for thought; I don't currently play. I just like to theorize. I'm sure if I statted it out I could find a great many tweaks, and would eventually give up and play the warlock if given the chance.

I just really like Soulknife. I'll have to look for a non-suck homebrew.
Ah, understood. Going that deep into Warlock seems more like replacing it than building on it, but there's definitely ways to make the best of any class. I'm doing that right now with a Healer, myself.

Have you taken a look at the Soulbow PrC, from Complete Psionic? It's designed for Soulknives and in my understanding makes them substantially more useful. Then, instead of taking six levels of Warlock for utility purposes, I'd concider dipping into an Incarnum class or taking the Shape Soulmeld feat - the flavour works wonderfully together (and no more demonicness), and "Airstep Sandles" can give you some much-needed mobility options. The cheapest way for true Flight on a VoP character has to be the Raptoran race though. Be warned that Incarnum is also concidered rather low on the power scale, but I think you'll be able to find some nice synergy there if you work at it. And definitelly think about Soulbow.

As for a non-suck homebrew, just bump it up to full BAB. Clean, simple, fits the concept, and makes the class far more practical.

Worira
2008-06-09, 09:43 PM
The Soulknife's real stats. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=310984)