PDA

View Full Version : 4e Fighter: Exceeding expectations?



Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-06, 07:30 PM
Looking at the level 29 Fighter powers, I noticed storm of destruction. Potentially 10 W + 2STR, it does some scary damage.

Now, just for fun, I decided to compare it to Assasin's point, the most damaging Rogue power. I used a human to run the calculations.

Assuming the use of, say, a maul, an 18 +2 racial bonus in STR and every possible boost put into STR, and taking average from each dice, and assuming the two attacks land (Very likely), Storm of Destruction deals 3.5*20+18= 88 damage, not taking into account magic weapon boosts or other things that tip the scales in favor of the fighter.

Now, Assasins point, assuming the use of a crossbow or rapier, maxed dex, averages, SA with brutal scoundrel and maxed STR, etc., deals 4.5*17+17=93.5 damage, 94 rounding up. Not applying any bonus aside from stats and Backstabber for the rogue, the fighter is only 6 points below the rogue in damage dealt. Adding a variety of bonuses, like PA, enhancements, etc, the figher outperforms the rogue, and it only gets worse if the rogue didn't use a crossbow or rapier. Am I missing something, or is the Fighter, who is supposed to have a secondary striker role, beating the rogue in damage when their best attacks are compared? Please, enlighten me, fellow playgrounders.

Yakk
2008-06-06, 07:54 PM
Attacks that target two opponents are discounted, as far as I can tell.

Assuming Fighter has 50-50 chance to hit, and both have combat advantage, and both have 19-20 crits...

Storm: (5[W=7]+Str+OBonus)*2* .70 + (5[W=12]+Str+OBonus+Crit)*2*.1 = 61 + (Str+OBonus)*1.6 + Crit*.2

Assasin: (7[W=4.5]+Dex+OBonus+45 Sneak+Str*2)*.725 + (7*[W=8]+Dex+OBonus+45 Sneak+Str*2+Crit*2)*.1

= 65.5625 + 0.825 Dex + 1.65 * Str + OBonus*0.825 + Crit * .2

Subtract Assasin-Storm:
= 22.5/40 + Str*2/40 + Dex*33/40 - 31/40 * OBonus
= [22.5 + Str*2 + Dex*33 - 31*OBonus]

which gives you the point at which the Fighter's damage matches the Rogue's damage.

However, I also presumed equal strength on the Rogue as the Fighter. Odds are the Rogue will have about +2 less strength, costing him 66/40 damage.

= [-25.5 + Dex*33 - 31*OBonus] /40
Dex @ +9:
= [ 271.5 - 31*OBonus ] / 40
At +8.76 other damage bonus (for both Rogue and Fighter), fighter total damage passes Rogue.

On the other hand, the Fighter is hitting two targets. That means the Fighter is dividing his damage, and not getting a target dead dead dead so it stops killing the party.

But there does seem to be a tendency not to compensate Rogue weapon abilities for being light blade only. ...

Oh, and I forgot that Fighter Weapon Talent will make up for the Rogue weapon's superior accuracy. Sigh.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-06, 08:05 PM
Of course, the calculations I did discounted ANY kind of extra damage. Factoring in a +6 weapon, that's an extra 6 points in damage, putting the fighter on par with the rogue if he hits with the two attacks. Adding PA gives you a +12 benefit over the rogue, even being gracious enough to give the rogue that same feat.

Really, it seems like someone screwed up with the capstones. The TWF ranger having his capstone at level 15, the fighter doing more damage...what's next, the palading causing status effects better than the warlock?

Crow
2008-06-07, 01:39 AM
How does Power Attack give you +12 damage?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:05 AM
How does Power Attack give you +12 damage?

Not twelve, eighteen. It's twelve over what a melee rogue with PA would get.

See, Storm of destruction lets you make two attacks. If you PA both of them, you get 9 extra damage for each. 9 + 9 = 18 extra damage.

Spiryt
2008-06-07, 11:09 AM
Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.

Sequinox
2008-06-07, 11:09 AM
One day and we already have arguments over the best classes. Sheesh.

No, im jking, that is a pretty good pont. I'm not playing rogue! Paladin, actually. When my 4e ships in.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:14 AM
Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.

You didn't get the role memo? Rogues, rangers and warlocks are supposed to be the big damage dealers. Skills deal with the things you mention. So yeah, get the books before making stupid decisions.

Abardam
2008-06-07, 11:17 AM
Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.Rogues are "Strikers," which I suppose could mean that they deal more damage, but I guess it could also mean they're better at getting into positions to damage (utilities and such), or they could deal a higher amount of damage in less time.

I don't have the PH though so I don't know.

Yakk
2008-06-07, 11:35 AM
Power attack -- taking a -2 to hit (about 20% less connects) in exchange for a mere +9 to damage on a hit? Barring a target you are nearly guaranteed to hit, it isn't that good of a choice.

The core of the point remains -- in 4e, you get a discount for being forced to hit two different targets. Because damage concentrated on one target kills the target, while damage spread over multiple targets leaves them damaging you.

So the Rogue ability remains superior to the Fighter ability at killing stuff dead -- except, the Fighter ability lets them mark two opponents, aiding the Fighter at defending.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:40 AM
Power attack -- taking a -2 to hit (about 20% less connects) in exchange for a mere +9 to damage on a hit? Barring a target you are nearly guaranteed to hit, it isn't that good of a choice.

The core of the point remains -- in 4e, you get a discount for being forced to hit two different targets. Because damage concentrated on one target kills the target, while damage spread over multiple targets leaves them damaging you.

So the Rogue ability remains superior to the Fighter ability at killing stuff dead -- except, the Fighter ability lets them mark two opponents, aiding the Fighter at defending.

What? You can use two attacks to hit the same target. It says one OR two targets.

As for PA, hey, that's what Action surge and it's ilk are for. Storm of destruction is so easy to combo for gross damage it's not funny.

Little_Rudo
2008-06-07, 11:41 AM
Strikers are lightly-armored fighters who get in, deal a load of damage, and get out. They have the highest damage output, but they also go down very fast, so they need to be mobile and careful not to get caught in a group of enemies.

The mechanical embodiment of the Fragile Speedster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster)

EDIT: At least, this is the concept. I'm not nearly as mechanically minded as the people who are already posting in this topic, so I'll let them decide if it holds true. :smallsmile:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:44 AM
Strikers are lightly-armored fighters who get in, deal a load of damage, and get out. They have the highest damage output, but they also go down very fast, so they need to be mobile and careful not to get caught in a group of enemies.

The mechanical embodiment of the Fragile Speedster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster)

EDIT: At least, this is the concept. I'm not nearly as mechanically minded as the people who are already posting in this topic, so I'll let them decide if it holds true. :smallsmile:

Doesn't seem so. If the rogue capstone has to bow down before the fighter capstone, the whole premise is invalidated. At level 15, there's also an early version with Dragon's Fangs. No rogue power approaches the damage that one does (Slaying strike almost goes to that level, but it only beats the fangs if it crits).

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 11:55 AM
The Fighter's secondary role is to be a Striker, they're Defender/Strikers, so it's not surprising that they come close to the Rogue in damage-dealing potential.

The Rogue's secondary role(s) is to be a Controller and Skillmonkey, both of which it does much better than the Fighter.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:18 PM
The Fighter's secondary role is to be a Striker, they're Defender/Strikers, so it's not surprising that they come close to the Rogue in damage-dealing potential.

The Rogue's secondary role(s) is to be a Controller and Skillmonkey, both of which it does much better than the Fighter.

Of course, but the problem is not coming close, but outright BEATING the rogue in his own game.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:21 PM
Of course, but the problem is not coming close, but outright BEATING the rogue in his own game.

The Backstabber feat adds +5 to the Rogue's SA damage.

Edit later for more details.

Did you include the fact that Assassin's Point doubles SA damage? That's an extra 22.5 damage.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:23 PM
You left out Sneak Attack in the OP.

That's an average of 22.5 damage with Backstabber.

No, I added it. Look up the part that says 4.5*17. The 10 comes from the doubled SA damage, and the 7 comes from the 7 W assasin's point gives. So yes, the fighter comes out on top once you apply bonuses.

Edit: And backstabber was included. Else, it was 4.5*7 + 3.5*10.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:26 PM
No, I added it. Look up the part that says 4.5*17. The 10 comes from the doubled SA damage, and the 7 comes from the 7 W assasin's point gives. So yes, the fighter comes out on top once you apply bonuses.

Edit: And backstabber was included. Else, it was 4.5*7 + 3.5*10.

Okay, gotcha. I didn't see that you included the math.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:27 PM
Assassin's Point doubling Crit damage adds ~ 5% to the total average damage, no?

A little less than that, really. About 3% or 4%.

EDIT: With a 19-20 crit feat, that gets upped to about a 7-8% increase in overall damage.

Also, Storm of Destruction only works against 2 targets. You only deal half damage if you have but one enemy to target.

The Rogue still comes out way ahead in single-target damage production, which is the Striker's role.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:34 PM
No Mercy is really a better straight-up power to compare to Assassin's Point. It deals about 2/3rds of the damage, but it is Reliable, meaning that if you miss, you don't lose that Daily power slot, which is huge.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 01:35 PM
What? You can use two attacks to hit the same target. It says one OR two targets.


No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

Dragon's Fangs, however, allows you to put both attacks on one target.

Also, 4e power attack is not like 3.5 power attack where you can nearly always do it. It may still be worth having (simply because you'll probably have more feats than worthwhile ones to take), but you only want to use it against monsters that have been debuffed, or when you get a buff like Righteous Brand or Good Omens against a low-AC creature that puts your to-hit roll to more than the monster's AC.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:36 PM
Now, let me try my hand at making a twinked fighter and rogue and we'll see how it works out in the end.

Note: Both the rogue and the fighter are humans, and we assume every attack hits, as I'm looking at potential damage.

Lesse...

Fighter:

3.5*20+18 from STR+18 from PA+12 from a magic weapon (Ignoring weapon powers)+6 from weapon focus = 124 damage.

Rogue:

4.5*17+9 from DEX+7 from STR (using 24 point buy)+6 from a magic weapon+3 from weapon focus =101.5 damage, 102 rounding up.

Orak
2008-06-07, 01:38 PM
The point that you are missing is that the rogue excels in single target damage. The warriors damage is situational based on there being the correct setup of opponents.

It is optimal to kill one target a time quickly so that you quickly eliminate opponents.

If you are to compare multiple opponent damage then the mage or warlock with area affect spells easily trumps the rogue or warrior for damage.

Also with the new game the opponents have a ton of hit points. Don't expect to be one shotting anything but minions for some time to come. So causing medium damage to a few opponents is not nearly as useful as causing maximum damage to one target.

Oh and I played this past wednesday. I am running the warrior. Lots of fun but hard to play in an open area, cause it is harder to protect your group when you have opponents coming from multiple areas (outdoor encounter of goblins). Can't wait to get into an actual dungeon, that is where the warrior will shine.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:39 PM
No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

Dragon's Fangs, however, allows you to put both attacks on one target.

Also, 4e power attack is not like 3.5 power attack where you can nearly always do it. It may still be worth having (simply because you'll probably have more feats than worthwhile ones to take), but you only want to use it against monsters that have been debuffed, or when you get a buff like Righteous Brand or Good Omens against a low-AC creature that puts your to-hit roll to more than the monster's AC.

Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?

And yes, PA can be used, and very well, at that. For example, I could activate the storm of destruction using an action point, and, since I'm using a human as a base, benefit from Action surge, giving me a net +1 to attack.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:39 PM
No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

I don't think AK wants to cede this point.

JaxGaret
2008-06-07, 01:40 PM
Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?

Would you read the whole power please?


Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target

One attack per target. Stop being so myopic.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:44 PM
Lemme see...

Yes. Apparently, you only deal 5 W to a single target.

Then, let's use No Mercy.

*Calculating, calculating*...

Yes, No Mercy deals less damage.

Zocelot
2008-06-07, 02:31 PM
Not only does the fighter deal less damage to a single target, it can only use the attack once per day. I understand that a fighter doing more damage with his capping ability takes away from the feel, but a well played rogue will be doing [W}+Dex+5d8 each round, whereas the fighter gets [W]+Strength. Even in an final battle, no one is likely to use encounters or dailys more then half the time.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 02:36 PM
Not only does the fighter deal less damage to a single target, it can only use the attack once per day. I understand that a fighter doing more damage with his capping ability takes away from the feel, but a well played rogue will be doing [W}+Dex+5d8 each round, whereas the fighter gets [W]+Strength. Even in an final battle, no one is likely to use encounters or dailys more then half the time.

The CharOp guys say that a fighter actually does MORE damage than a rogue, though, both with dailies and encounter powers. Apparently, Oversized comes into play to give the fighter a boost.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 02:41 PM
Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?


You readin' something? Other than the Player's Handbook? Here, let me spell it out for you.

Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

If you're still confused, try reading the last line of what I quoted again.

Yakk
2008-06-07, 02:53 PM
No Mercy is reliable.

I do agree that it appears as if Rogues aren't getting enough "credit" for using light blades in their damage dice.

Rogue Dagger: 2.5 avg/4 max, +4 to hit
Light blade: 3.5 avg/6 max, +3 to hit.
Normal 1H: 4.5 avg/8 max, +3 to hit.
Beefy 1H: 5.5 avg/10 max, +2 to hit.
Normal 2H: 5.5 avg/10 max, +3 to hit.
Beefy 2H: 7 avg/12 max, +2 to hit

Superior Light: 4.5 avg/8 max, +3 to hit
Superior 1H: 5.5 avg/10 max, +3 to hit
Superior 2H: none, really

The fighter gets +1 to hit on his weapon, allowing the Fighter to use a Beefy weapon at the same to-hit as a rogue.

At 7[W] levels, that's 49 for fighter vs 31.5 for Rogue -- 17.5 difference.

A 30 Rogue sneak attack (with Backstabber) is 22.5. Meaning that at 7[W] levels, the Rogue is only 5 points ahead of the striker-Fighter. And the Rogue burned 2 feats (Backstabber and Superior Weapon: Rapier) and the Rogue requires combat advantage.

A Ranger using a bastard sword (+3 to hit, 5.5 avg damage) and Hunter's Quarry (superior) (13.5 damage per round) at 7[W] damage levels hits for 52 per swing. 3 greater than the Fighter, 2 less than the Rogue. The Ranger doesn't need combat advantage to do this, while the Rogue does.

Hmm. I just noticed something interesting:

You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll.

Does that mean what I think it means -- the Rogue rolls backstab damage, and can say "naw, that isn't good enough, I'll save it"? Neat.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 02:58 PM
You need to actually take into account the effects of Power Attack on your damage correctly. Just adding the damage bonus is not doing that. I'll do the math for you.

If you hit on y or higher, where y is between 2 and 18 (I'm ignoring crits for simplicity, and if you only hit on a 19 or 20 sure go ahead and power attack, you're still screwed), and do X damage:

(21-y)/20 * X = base damage.

(21-y-2)/20* (X+12) = PA damage.

A bit of arithmetic later (break out a pen and paper if you want, it's all easy simplifications)

Damage added by PAing is 171/20 - 9/20 * y - 1/10 * X.

If you power attack for something other than 9, you can replace 171 with 19(power attack damage bonus), and the 9 with your power attack damage bonus.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 02:58 PM
Do note that the fewer damage dice of a particular ability, the more the Rogue's Sneak Attack makes up the difference. And the fighter's giving up defenses to use those big beefy weapons. Comparing Dailies, if the rogue is only slightly ahead (But more mobile), the rogue'll be above and beyond on Encounters and At-Wills.

Theodoxus
2008-06-07, 03:01 PM
Let me get this straight... you're arguing over whether a fighter or rogue, at the end of their epic career, is better at killing things dead based on one ability? That 'retarded.

Yes, retarded.

By the time you're 29th level, you're not going Legolas or Gimli. You don't care what the death count is, you're looking at taking over some part of the celestial pantheon.

And seriously, if, for whatever assinine reason you wanted to compare the overall effectiveness of a fighter as striker vs rogue as striker, you'd compare the whole kit. One daily power doesn't prove a damn thing. The rogue will outshine the fighter based on an encounter. Who cares if the fighter can make one attack at 100+ damage. The rest of his attacks will be in the 50-60 range. The rogue will consistantly be in the 80s. Added up over the length of the fight, the rogue will probably dish out more than 200-300 more points than the fighter.

Thus, the rogue is the better striker. Now, go back to figuring out which god you want to disposses.

/rant off

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 03:02 PM
Do note that the fewer damage dice of a particular ability, the more the Rogue's Sneak Attack makes up the difference. And the fighter's giving up defenses to use those big beefy weapons. Comparing Dailies, if the rogue is only slightly ahead (But more mobile), the rogue'll be above and beyond on Encounters and At-Wills.

CharOp disagrees. As soon as the build they're making is up, I'll post it here. According to them, the fighter outdamages the rogue in encounter and daily powers. Their words, not mine.

Pyro: Since that was a calculation for potential damage, the effect PA had on the to-hit % was ignored. It's assumed the attack hits. So no, the math was perfect, since the effect the chance to hit has on damage was disregarded.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 03:04 PM
Let me get this straight... you're arguing over whether a fighter or rogue, at the end of their epic career, is better at killing things dead based on one ability? That 'retarded.

Yes, retarded.

By the time you're 29th level, you're not going Legolas or Gimli. You don't care what the death count is, you're looking at taking over some part of the celestial pantheon.

And seriously, if, for whatever assinine reason you wanted to compare the overall effectiveness of a fighter as striker vs rogue as striker, you'd compare the whole kit. One daily power doesn't prove a damn thing. The rogue will outshine the fighter based on an encounter. Who cares if the fighter can make one attack at 100+ damage. The rest of his attacks will be in the 50-60 range. The rogue will consistantly be in the 80s. Added up over the length of the fight, the rogue will probably dish out more than 200-300 more points than the fighter.

Thus, the rogue is the better striker. Now, go back to figuring out which god you want to disposses.

/rant off

Dragon's Fangs. Every rogue daily of that level (15) pales in comparison to that one, if the fighter is properly built. So no, it's not "This one power", it's the fighter consistently doing damage better than the rogue when it comes down to encounter or daily powers.

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 03:19 PM
CharOp disagrees. As soon as the build they're making is up, I'll post it here. According to them, the fighter outdamages the rogue in encounter and daily powers. Their words, not mine.


My friend, this is an historical moment. We're witnessing the birth of Cofzilla(Core only fighter monstruosity), wich will be able to eventually don't need the other classes for anything in order to effectively defeat all challenges.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 03:22 PM
CharOp disagrees. As soon as the build they're making is up, I'll post it here. According to them, the fighter outdamages the rogue in encounter and daily powers. Their words, not mine.
If they wanna be wrong, they can do that, but some of us like being correct.


Pyro: Since that was a calculation for potential damage, the effect PA had on the to-hit % was ignored. It's assumed the attack hits. So no, the math was perfect, since the effect the chance to hit has on damage was disregarded.

Why would you assume the attack hits? It's a relevant comparison for overall damage.

Edit: Dragon's Fangs, eh?

6[W] + 2x Strength + 2x damage modifiers

Slaying Strike:
5[W] + Dex + Damage mods + Sneak Attack + 10% Crit Rate

The 19 powers:

Reaving Strike:
5[W] + Str

Feinting Flurry:
5[W] + Dex + SA + Enemy suffers a to-hit penalty.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 03:24 PM
My friend, this is an historical moment. We're witnessing the birth of Cofzilla(Core only fighter monstruosity), wich will be able to eventually don't need the other classes for anything in order to effectively defeat all challenges.

Sorta. If we are to believe CharOp, the fighter once again is the better damage dealer. It's scary...yet it fills me with happyness. We'll have to wait and see, but as soon as it's up, I'll bring the build here for everyone to comment on it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 03:28 PM
If they wanna be wrong, they can do that, but some of us like being correct.



Why would you assume the attack hits? It's a relevant comparison for overall damage.

Because I was calculating potential damage. What interests me is the fact that a fighter can deal more damage than a rogue, not how consistently he does it.

But still, let's wait 'till later today. Soon, we'll see what happens and what's the famed build that will deal more damage and cure cancer.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 03:30 PM
Because I was calculating potential damage. What interests me is the fact that a fighter can deal more damage than a rogue, not how consistently he does it.
I could believe a fighter produces higher burst damage, but lower average damage. It's still pretty disingenuous to claim they're better at dealing damage for it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 04:55 PM
And here it is, MC hammer, the super fighter. Thanks go to Titanium dragon for making it. Comment on it.

MC Hammer
Race: Minotaur
Class: Fighter/Kensei/Demigod
Size: Medium
Speed: 5 squares

Strength: 16+2 = 18 base, 21 at 11th level, 26 at 21st level, 28 at 28th level
Constitution: 16+2 = 18 base, 21 at 11th level, 26 at 21st level, 28 at 28th level
Dexterity: 10, 11 at 11th level, 12 at 21st level
Intelligence: 8, 9 at 11th level, 10 at 21st level
Wisdom: 14, 15 at 11th level, 16 at 21st level
Charisma: 10, 11 at 11th level, 12 at 21st level

Hit points: 31 base, 96 at 11th level, 161 at 21st level, 217 at 30th level
Healing surges: 13 base, 14 at 8th level, 15 at 12th level, 17 at 21st level, 18 at 28th level
Healing surge value: 7 base, 24 at 11th level, 40 at 21st level, 54 at 30th level

AC: 18 at 1st level, 27 at 11th level (assuming +3 plate), 37 at 21st level (assuming +5 dwarven plate), 46 at 30th level (assuming +6 godplate, and they canít gain a bonus from combat advantage to their attack rolls)
Fortitude: 16 at 1st level, 25 at 11th level (assuming +3 neckslot), 31 at 18th level (assuming +4 neckslot), 37 at 21st level (assuming +5 neckslot), 44 at 30th level (assuming +6 neckslot)
Reflex: 10 at 1st level, 18 at 11th level (assuming +3 neckslot), 21 at 12th level (assuming +3 neckslot), 28 at 21st level (assuming +5 neckslot), 34 at 30th level (assuming +6 neckslot)
Will: 12 at 1st level, 20 at 11th level (assuming +3 neckslot), 25 at 14th level (assuming +3 neckslot), 30 at 21st level (assuming +5 neckslot), 36 at 30th level (assuming +6 neckslot)

Weapon: Large Maul (2d8 damage, +2 proficiency)
Ranged Weapon: Large Throwing Hammer (1d8 damage, +2 proficiency, heavy thrown)

Base to-hit modifier:
1st: +7, +8 on opportunity attacks
11th: +17 (assuming +3 maul), +15 while power attacking, +18 on opportunity attacks (and +5 damage)
21st: +27 (assuming +5 maul), +25 while power attacking, +30 on opportunity attacks (and +8 damage!)
30th: +34 (assuming +6 maul), +32 while power attacking, +37 on opportunity attacks (and +9 damage!)

Selected DPR against standard foe at level with at-will attack (according to DMG, AC 12+level) Ė all assuming you canít add the second set of strength damage on a Cleave to the same target.
1st: 16.5
2nd: 17.15 (assuming no magical weapon)
6th: 19.45 (assuming magic maul +2)
11th: 25.275 (assuming magic maul +3)
16th: 28.45 (assuming magic maul +4)
21st: 47.7 (assuming magic maul +5, using a 2[W] attack)
26th: 46.7 (assuming magic maul +6)
30th: 45.7 (assuming magic maul +6) Ė note that this is much lower than actual DPR, see below
Cruel Reaper vs standard level 30 foe, no other boosts, DPR (note: as a Demigod, you can do this every round once youíve exhausted all of your encounter powers): 91.2

Trained Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate
Skill bonuses: +2 to Nature, +2 to Perception

Feats:
Armor Proficiency (Plate) (1st)
Power Attack (2nd)
Potent Challenge (4th)
Weapon Focus (Hammer) (6th)
Student of Battle (8th)
-Improved Initiative (10th)
Hammer Rhythm (11th)
Armor Specialization (Plate) (11th, retrain Improved Initiative)
Lightning Reflexes (12th)
Danger Sense (14th)
Iron Will (16th)
Great Fortitude (18th)
-Uncanny Dodge (20th)
Bludgeon Mastery (21st)
Epic Resurgence (21st, retrain Uncanny Dodge)
Blind-Fight (22nd)
Triumphant Attack (24th)
Acolyte Power (26th)
Uncanny Dodge (28th)
Improved Initiative (30th)

Powers:
Goring Charge (racial encounter power, and generally not very good, but occasionally handy)

At-Will Powers:
Cleave
Reaping Strike (retrain to Sure Strike at 12th level)

Encounter Powers:
Steel Serpent Strike (1st)
Sweeping Blow (3rd)
Come and Get It (7th)
Masterstroke (11th, Kensei power)
Anvil of Doom (13th, replaces Steel Serpent Strike)
Vorpal Tornado (17th, replaces Sweeping Blow)
Skullcrusher (23rd, replaces Come and Get It)
Cruel Reaper (27th, replaces Anvil of Doom)

Daily Powers:
Comeback Strike (1st)
Rain of Steel (5th, depends on whether or not you can add all your damage modifiers to Rain of Steelís damage to adjacent foes. If you can, this is the power of choice)
Thicket of Blades (9th)
Unyielding Avalanche (15th, replaces Comeback Strike)
Devastationís Wake (19th, replaces Rain of Steel)
Weaponsoul Dance (20th, Kensei power)
Supremacy of Steel (26th, replaces Thicket of Blades)
Force the Battle (29th, replaces Unyielding Avalanche)

Utility Powers:
Boundless Endurance (2nd)
Unbreakable (6th)
Into the Fray (10th)
Ultimate Parry (12th, Kensei power)
Surprise Step (16th)
Act of Desperation (22nd)
Divine Regeneration (26th, Demigod power)
Heroic Surge (22nd level Warlord utility power, replaces Act of Desperation at 26th level)

The purpose of MC Hammer is pretty simple: to achieve a very high DPR as a fighter. The Minotaur maul fighter is ideal for this as no other fighter can deal as much damage; the large maul deals the most damage of any weapon in the game, and the Minotaur is ideally suited for the role because he can wield the large maul and has a +2 bonus to both Strength and Constitution.

This build is very dedicated to getting as much damage in as possible, as well as to be a powerful tank in melee with tons of HP. As such, he basically threw away his intelligence and charisma, and his Dexterity and Wisdom are a bit low (particularly the latter), but sacrifices need be made and I think his end totals show it is worthwhile. His AC and Fortitude are very close to as good as they can get, within just a few points of the maximum values, and 217 hp is pretty close to as high as it gets. He also has an impressive 18 healing surges, which is an enormous number and allows him to be healed a lot.

His real winning feature, though, is his very high DPR. Worth noting is that these values increase fairly rapidly - if he has combat advantage, that's a pretty large DPR boost, on the order of 3-5, even more with encounter and daily powers. At level 30 he can deal 91.2 DPR to all adjacent foes round after round once he's exhausted his encounter powers, and he's marking them all in the process. Even at much lower levels he's got a bunch of melee multimarking abilities, and a few hammer abilities which pretty much mess up a single foe in melee. The Kensei class adds a great deal to his DPR by increasing his damage and his hit chance, as well as adding a pretty decent daily power and an encounter power which adds +2 to hit (which is pretty much like adding 3-5 DPR). Being able to use action points to reroll missed attacks means he can conserve his powers and use them more slowly while still doling out maximum damage by hitting with all of them.

He is still a solid defender as well; foes who provoke opportunity attacks from him are pretty likely to be hit (as his to-hit chance is already high and his abilities add a decent bonus to his to-hit) and take even more extra damage once he picks up Potent Challenge, an excellent feat for someone who starts with a +4 constitution modifier and goes all the way up to +9 at 28th level. He punishes foes heavily for moving away from him, and deals so much damage it is hard to ignore him.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 05:00 PM
Okay, "potential damage" your calculation is correct. It's also totally irrelevant, since what people care about is damage per round, not damage on the rounds that you happen to hit. Depending on where your hit number is and what your damage already is, it averages from a bit more than +9 damage down to losing you damage. Do your math right.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 05:07 PM
Okay, "potential damage" your calculation is correct. It's also totally irrelevant, since what people care about is damage per round, not damage on the rounds that you happen to hit. Depending on where your hit number is and what your damage already is, it averages from a bit more than +9 damage down to losing you damage. Do your math right.

Look up. To quote the musician:

Say No More.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 05:28 PM
Look up. To quote the musician:

Say No More.

Good, that's how you calculate it right. I'd be interested to see if anyone can beat that with a rogue.

It seems especially damning that the Hammer's main attack is an AE....

EDIT: If it's not clear, my penultimate post was written before I saw the Hammer.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 05:34 PM
Indeed, I have to offer TD some sacrifices for making the build.

Here's his opinion on the subject of what happens when MC is compared to a straight classed rogue:


Well, it really depends on what the rogue is doing. A Demigod maul wielder at 30th level will consistantly beat the rogue in terms of DPR because Reaper Strike deals so much more damage than anything the rogue can do; the rogue's at-wills deal somewhat more damage than the Maul-wielder's at-wills, but his encounter powers deal less than the Maul-wielder and his dailies deal less as well (though Assassin's Point does deal slightly more than a standard Maul-wielder, if optimized). Not to mention the fact that the fighter is attacking all adjacent foes and if any of these foes even -shift- away from him, his DPR shoots up way beyond what is achievable by a rogue.

The problem with the rogue is that he does very good damage, but it is a pretty small range. The best damaging build of rogue I've found is an oversized bugbear daggermaster, at least in terms of a pure rogue (I'm pretty sure if you multiclassed into ranger, you could exceed this DPR, but at that point you're using ranger, not rogue powers to achieve it). So if you do ALL of this, your DPR with Assassin's Point, the one time per day you can use it, is... 91.4875. Now, this is a whopping 0.2875 more damage than the Maul Wielder, but on the downside the Maul Wielder is wielding a better weapon than you are (as to get this damage, you're wielding a Vicious Dagger +6, and he's... not). The Maul Wielder, if he too wields a Vicious weapon (or indeed, any weapon with more than a +d6 crit die, which was what the maul DPR assumes), he still outdamages you. And that's WITHOUT him having combat advantage. If he does get combat advantage, he's dealing 99.4 DPR with a Magic Maul +6, and if he's wielding anything with a higher crit die, its over 100. And this is, again, to all adjacent foes, and is an encounter power, not daily, and he can use it repeatedly because he's a demigod.