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Tengu
2008-06-07, 06:59 AM
Exactly what it says on the tin. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin)

Did anyone find or invent any ways of breaking this game already?

wodan46
2008-06-07, 08:12 AM
Stand a level 1 minion next to a level 30 minion. Attack the first with a Cleave, which carries over to the second.

However, DMs won't let a situation like that happen. As for character builds, don't know yet.

Zocelot
2008-06-07, 08:18 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811

It is very powerful most of the time, and once per day it can unleash hell.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-07, 08:20 AM
LSC Ritual. Check out page 3 of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81697&page=3), starting at post #72.

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 08:39 AM
With 39.5 average weapon damage, this gives a final average damage of 3097.29 hit points, enough to kill Orcus twice.

Long live balanced 4th edition!

Kabump
2008-06-07, 08:52 AM
Long live balanced 4th edition!

Long live balanced 3.5 edition!

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 08:58 AM
First of all, I wasn't saying that 3.5 is balanced, I was mererly observing the fact that neither is the 4th, although everyone seemed to believe so.

Second of all, find me a 3.5 rogue build that does 3000 dmg in one round.

Skyserpent
2008-06-07, 09:20 AM
First of all, I wasn't saying that 3.5 is balanced, I was mererly observing the fact that neither is the 4th, although everyone seemed to believe so.

Second of all, find me a 3.5 rogue build that does 3000 dmg in one round.

Balanced enough, I think. One build doesn't make or break a system. I mean, Rogues ARE strikers after all, someone just devised a method to make them really frickin' good at it.

Unbalancing to have a character able to kill a God in one round? Sure. Game-breaking? I'm not so sure...

I'm not expecting any system to lack quirks, but it's still more balanced than 3.5 ever was.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 09:23 AM
Balanced doesn't generally mean it's not possible to break the game. It generally means it's /harder/ to.

....


BLADE CASCADE!? Well they just lost their claim to being able to reliably solo Orcus, since no matter how good their attack bonus is..

Kabump
2008-06-07, 09:23 AM
First of all, I wasn't saying that 3.5 is balanced, I was mererly observing the fact that neither is the 4th, although everyone seemed to believe so.

Second of all, find me a 3.5 rogue build that does 3000 dmg in one round.

Sorry, I was in a foul mood this morning, didn't mean to come off that way on you :) And I couldn't build a 3.5 rogue that way, im far from either a min/maxer, or familiar enough with the splat and rules to do so. I can remember the Hulking Thrower I read about, all RAW legal and doing WAY more damage than that. Also, what I've seen here is a simple house rule from fixing, IE on Blade Cascade a cumulative -1 on subsequent hits is a nice fix without terribly ruining the power. As for the chest, ill admit that one Im not sure about :) On that note off to WWDnD day at my local gaming shop!

Rutee
2008-06-07, 09:28 AM
The chest is only broken when RAW impedes Common Sense. Plus, Programmed Amnesia or Mindrape beats it for brokenness by a long shot.

If you want a massive damage build in 3.5, how does Shock Trooper's 1000 damage not suffice? Seeing as it can be done at-will.

Or the rather amusing 800 damage Orbs? They dont' have to deal as much damage as Blade Cascade. They just have to one shot every pre or post epic creature.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-07, 09:29 AM
How do you get Orbs and Shock Trooper to cause that much damage?

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 09:29 AM
Unbalancing to have a character able to kill a God in one round? Sure. Game-breaking? I'm not so sure...


One of the premises of 4e is that battles would last longer and a character wouldn't be able to defeat an ecounter of his level all by himself.

Also, nonbattle stuff was mutilated so horribly that the only thing that the rules really suport in 4e is battle.

And we have here a character who can one turn kill a monster who was suposed to hold the entire party for several rounds.

How could it be more game breaking? Kill Orcus in zero turns? That was something not even a batman wizard/planar sheperd/clericzilla of mishra in 3.X could do.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 09:31 AM
How do you get Orbs and Shock Trooper to cause that much damage?

Abuse. Quite frankly, I don't have the books that do it all, and I'd never use it, but with the frequency they're quoted at as dealing that much damage, and the lack of people who /do/ have the books denying it...

Incidentally, I've never considered 3.X broken because of what Forum COs could do. That'd be silly. I considered it broken because simply using PHB-listed spells can break it. Not "I make a complex build revolving around whatever", just "I cast Web and instantly win this low level encounter for us". Or "I cast a Save or Suck, now the boss loses, but we still have to waste the time to attack him."

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 09:35 AM
I'm not expecting any system to lack quirks, but it's still more balanced than 3.5 ever was.

Well, we just have to wait. Builds like this will be more and more common with time...


Also, what I've seen here is a simple house rule from fixing, IE on Blade Cascade a cumulative -1 on subsequent hits is a nice fix without terribly ruining the power.

Well of course, everything is prone to fixing. Even 3.5 wizard. You just have to be a reasonable player and not do that. I play a Batman wizard, and I'm not a polymorphing monstrosity that anahilates everything, but the point is that I can be if I wanted to. I really doubt (and hope) that no one will actually use this rogue build, but it still can be done. So, 4th edition has the same problem as 3.5, it's prone to game-breaking combos (if doing 3000 dmg in a round isn't gamebreaking, I don't know what is), and people should really stop using the argument that 4th > 3.5 in terms of game balance.


If you want a massive damage build in 3.5, how does Shock Trooper's 1000 damage not suffice? Seeing as it can be done at-will.

Or the rather amusing 800 damage Orbs? They dont' have to deal as much damage as Blade Cascade. They just have to one shot every pre or post epic creature.

3000 > 1000
3000 > 800.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-07, 09:37 AM
Thanks for explaining. I was just wondering due to he Orb spells having a clearly stated damage limit of 90 HPs.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-07, 09:39 AM
So is this how its gonna be for the next few months... someone is going to want to talk about 4e, since, ya know, the rules are out... and people are gonna jump in with snide remarks and trolling comments?

I mean, I can understand it pre-rules when everything is speculation... but now we're actually talking about the -game-.

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 09:40 AM
Abuse. Quite frankly, I don't have the books that do it all, and I'd never use it, but with the frequency they're quoted at as dealing that much damage, and the lack of people who /do/ have the books denying it...

Shock trooper whole combo falls apart with a single feat(elusive target, denies power attack bonus damage). Put it into your monsters. Make the shock trooper cry. Hey, if the players are optimizing their characters, it's only fair to you to optimize your monsters.

Orbs dealing 800 damage with only lv20 in a single turn? Never heard or saw it.
And I've been watching a battle between a wizard and three mage slayers, where the wizard uses orbs to attack from the protection of his shaped AMF, and he only deals 100-200 damage a turn, hardly enough to one sot epic oponents.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 09:41 AM
3000 > 1000
3000 > 800.

First off:
3 x 1000 = 3000
4 x 800 > 3000

Both easily doable. SEcond, dead is dead. Once you've done enough damage to OHKO pretty much any creature, further optimizing is pointless except for one's ego.


Thanks for explaining. I was just wondering due to he Orb spells having a clearly stated damage limit of 90 HPs.
If I recall correctly, it involves Energy Admixture, Twinning, and the like, all made possible with Arcane THesis and other easy metamagic toys. Certainly, neither is Core, I'll grant that. But save or sucks are.


Shock trooper whole combo falls apart with a single feat(elusive target, denies power attack bonus damage). Put it into your monsters. Make the shock trooper cry. Hey, if the players are optimizing their characters, it's only fair to you to optimize your monsters.

How lovely. Either I make my optimizer useless or let him be godlike. Binary Monsters doesn't sound like any more fun then instantly dead ones.

Maybe I don't want an Arms Race, and any player who tries that **** with me is going to change or leave, regardless of system.

Skyserpent
2008-06-07, 09:41 AM
One of the premises of 4e is that battles would last longer and a character wouldn't be able to defeat an ecounter of his level all by himself.

Also, nonbattle stuff was mutilated so horribly that the only thing that the rules really suport in 4e is battle.

And we have here a character who can one turn kill a monster who was suposed to hold the entire party for several rounds.

How could it be more game breaking? Kill Orcus in zero turns? That was something not even a batman wizard/planar sheperd/clericzilla of mishra in 3.X could do.

The Build is ridiculous, we get that. If it takes 30 levels of gaming to get to this point, the point where you are at MAXIMUM level, I'm not actually so amazed that this character just happened to one-shot Orcus...

Yes, it breaks that cardinal rule of 4e that no character should be able to outshine the others, they messed up a little... I'm not at all surprised. However, it's ONE build, so far anyway... more are on their way I'll bet.

Also: Your gripe with the game destroying Out of Combat gameplay is a little odd considering I haven't heard anyone actually PLAY 4e and complain about Roleplaying being limited... maybe I haven't been looking in the right places... From all my experiences we've had half our sessions chock-full of really interesting skill-challenges and the like...

Batman Wizard could one-shot far more things at far lower levels. Overall game balance-wise, 4e is STILL more balanced as a system. It broke under the strain at level 30... OH NOES! It's a single method to one-shot a single enemy. Once Per Day, at Maximum level, a little unbalancing since he can, himself decide to kill his party as well, but I'm honestly less than worried.

Gimme a few splatbooks and we'll see some REAL cheese. I'm impressed, but not surprised, and still support 4e as a phenomenal system.

Skyserpent
2008-06-07, 09:46 AM
Shock trooper whole combo falls apart with a single feat(elusive target, denies power attack bonus damage). Put it into your monsters. Make the shock trooper cry. Hey, if the players are optimizing their characters, it's only fair to you to optimize your monsters.

Orbs dealing 800 damage with only lv20 in a single turn? Never heard or saw it.
And I've been watching a battle between a wizard and three mage slayers, where the wizard uses orbs to attack from the protection of his shaped AMF, and he only deals 100-200 damage a turn, hardly enough to one sot epic oponents.

So you're either Godly and game-breaking or weeping because you suck? Isn't that fun!?

Wait...

Oh right... it's not.

I don't know about the Orb spell combo, but Wizards in 3.5 could one-shot things since level 12. Maybe not one ROUND, but the remaining "cleanup" rounds aren't exactly pulse-pounding action.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-07, 09:46 AM
Also... how is the ranger/rogue getting to make his blade cascade? Orcus can fly and teleport... and if anyone moves or shifts next to him, he gets to tail slap at a +36 bonus that stuns the target until the end of his next turn...

Yeah, its theoretically possible... but it would never happen in a game.

Skyserpent
2008-06-07, 09:49 AM
Also... how is the ranger/rogue getting to make his blade cascade? Orcus can fly and teleport... and if anyone moves or shifts next to him, he gets to tail slap at a +36 bonus that stuns the target until the end of his next turn...

Yeah, its theoretically possible... but it would never happen in a game.

Immediate Action, once per round I think, send a party-dummy in to take the tail slap, then fly/run in and Cascade away...

I think that was the strategy anyway...

or maybe it was saving the Rogue's Deadly Trickster "Hey, you roll a 1" ability for that instead of Initiative.

Scintillatus
2008-06-07, 09:54 AM
I'm glad it at least takes you to be partially fused with divinity and an inter-planar legend of deadly tricksterness before you start whupping the universe's ass.

Rather than just being Tim the Tenth Level Wizard.

InaVegt
2008-06-07, 10:12 AM
That 3000 damage build fails to account for 1 thing.

The dmg lets you treat 1 d20 roll as a 1 1/day,

Assuming he does it at the first opportunity to do so, the average damage has been lowered to 2600.

Still quite a lot, but not even close to what a 3.x core 30th level wizard can do if properly optimized.

Tengu
2008-06-07, 10:40 AM
I'm glad it at least takes you to be partially fused with divinity and an inter-planar legend of deadly tricksterness before you start whupping the universe's ass.

Rather than just being Tim the Tenth Level Wizard.

Scintillatus has discovered the purpose of this thread.

Keep the broken stuff coming, folks. Real broken stuff, not things that work by RAW but not RAI - I want to see elements that are broken due to bad system design, not because some things weren't spelled clearly.

And, of course, I'd like the anti-4e trolls to git off me lawn.

UserClone
2008-06-07, 10:53 AM
I'd just like to say Thank the gods that GitP posters don't treat each other that way. I reiterate: I am happy to be here and not on gleemax.

Scintillatus
2008-06-07, 10:57 AM
An easy way to fix blade cascade is to make it so each additional attack takes a -2 penalty to the roll.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:12 AM
Scintillatus has discovered the purpose of this thread.

Keep the broken stuff coming, folks. Real broken stuff, not things that work by RAW but not RAI - I want to see elements that are broken due to bad system design, not because some things weren't spelled clearly.

And, of course, I'd like the anti-4e trolls to git off me lawn.

Does the fact that a properly twinked (But not cheesily so) fighter can do more damage than a rogue count?

Animefunkmaster
2008-06-07, 11:14 AM
First, this may or may not be game breaking. Not many people knew what game breaking was with 3.x right out of the box. It is over kill, lets not get that wrong, but whether or not it is game breaking is the question.

Also, stop comparing 3.x and 4e, they are different animals. One has far more content, which is prone for more abuse, the other is too new to know all of it's abuses. Just give it a few months, they you will see how balanced 4e is.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 11:20 AM
You need more content then the PHB to cast "Otto's Irresistible Dance"? Or Everard's (That's the name, yes?) Black Tentacles?

Edea
2008-06-07, 11:22 AM
The moment I saw Blade Cascade, I clicked off.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:24 AM
You need more content then the PHB to cast "Otto's Irresistible Dance"?

http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/00072qeg

She says the truth, so you better believe her.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 11:30 AM
A thought, inspired by the DDR miniboss of Brave Fencer Musashi, and her threat of "Dance.. OR DIE!"

Otto's could be in 4th edition. Int vs. Will. Take X Ongoing damage, or lose the turn to dancing (I suggest the Elaine Dance (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oUl_Jvk_0), for maximum win). Save Ends Both, Encounter or Daily, whichever. Not sure which...

Draz74
2008-06-07, 11:34 AM
You need more content then the PHB to cast "Otto's Irresistible Dance"? Or Everard's (That's the name, yes?) Black Tentacles?

Evard's.

And I would say Black Tentacles fall in the "mildly overpowered" category, not the "broken" category. Possibly the same for Irresistible Dance, until it gets comboed with Archmage or Reach Spell.

And in any case, I'm pretty sure the game had to be played for more than a couple weeks before most people recognized the power of these spells. 4e could have similar things lurking within it that just haven't been discovered yet. (Or it might not. My guess is the Monster Manual -- I'll bet some monsters are way too strong for their XP value.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 11:38 AM
A thought, inspired by the DDR miniboss of Brave Fencer Musashi, and her threat of "Dance.. OR DIE!"

Otto's could be in 4th edition. Int vs. Will. Take X Ongoing damage, or lose the turn to dancing (I suggest the Elaine Dance (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z0oUl_Jvk_0), for maximum win). Save Ends Both, Encounter or Daily, whichever. Not sure which...

...Wait a minute. You played that game?

This must be the way the protagonist of Message in a Bottle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJJgM23gLh8) felt when he saw the hundred billion bottles. It's kinda fuzzy and warm.

As for the power, it should be a daily, possibly level 15 or higher. If it hits, you must do two saves, one to end the ongoing damage, one to stop losing your turn. Then, if it misses, you simply take the ongoing damage.

The tune should be You can leave your Hat on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqS9U96biRU), though. The thought of Orcus or a dracolich dancing to that tune is hilarious.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 11:40 AM
And in any case, I'm pretty sure the game had to be played for more than a couple weeks before most people recognized the power of these spells. 4e could have similar things lurking within it that just haven't been discovered yet. (Or it might not. My guess is the Monster Manual -- I'll bet some monsters are way too strong for their XP value.)

Maybe you needed someone to tell you. I certainly did need someone to elucidate the full metamagic brokenness of magic. I didn't need help to determine that unoptimized blasting would lose every time to unoptimized effect spells; Most MMO players probably don't.

As to Otto's only being 'mildly' overpowered, you've pretty much automatically killed an enemy, under the provision that it has vulnerability to a rather large class of spells. To be fair, immunity to Mind-affecting isn't /that/ uncommon, but it's also not universal. At least passing out immunity to it for every creature isn't as fun killing as "Every enemy has Elusive Target" to the shock trooper. Otto's is just the one spell, not "lolno" to the whole build.

Deepblue706
2008-06-07, 11:46 AM
Shock trooper whole combo falls apart with a single feat(elusive target, denies power attack bonus damage). Put it into your monsters. Make the shock trooper cry. Hey, if the players are optimizing their characters, it's only fair to you to optimize your monsters.

That tactical feat requires Dodge and Mobility. Sure, you can just grant that to monsters anyway (though that's kinda of lame - and, in fact, impossible to use without at least Dodge), but to constantly limiting the ability to power attack is just as bad as constantly fighting in Dead Magic Zones, having all monsters being constructs, or always forcing the Paladin to try to smite Neutral enemies. Or, denying casters time to EVER rest or escape to safety. Or, not ever implementing monsters the Ranger selected as favored.

Put Elusive into some monsters, but don't make D&D a game of the PCs vs the DM, much less pick on a damn melee character. If it's really out of hand, just mitigate things - don't completely nullify abilities that define a class role or archetype, because that's hella boring.

Indon
2008-06-07, 12:05 PM
If you ask me, I think traps are going to be exploited before long. I look at Doomspore and think, "I know if I put one of those in an encounter with my group, they would try to exploit it somehow."

I get the same feeling with the Glyph of Warding and the Daggerthorn Briar.

Yakk
2008-06-07, 12:10 PM
Blade Cascade is a particularly easy ability to abuse.

Let's see if we can make it still good, but not godly.

Proposal: Rerolls are Immediate Interrupts. Thus limited to 1 per round.

Imperil: 50% hit, 25% uses reroll, 25% misses
Blade Cascade: 50% chance with 1 reroll (avg 38 hits), 25% 0 rerolls (avg 19 hits), 25% no imperil (low damage).

Hitting 37 hits with 0 rerolls: ~15% chance.
Hitting 37 hits with 1 reroll: (.95^37)*(.05)^1*38+.95^38 -- ~43% chance

I'll assume that 2/3 of the time when you make that many hits, you are killing Orcus.

25% * 43% * 66% + 50% * 15% * 66% =~ 17% chance to win

Still damn good. Note that the chance to win can be boosted significantly if you can get help debuffing the AC of the target.

And yes, another fix is the "you take -1 to hit for every hit for every hit after the first".

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 12:36 PM
Just give it a few months, they you will see how balanced 4e is.

Or the opposite.

wodan46
2008-06-07, 12:55 PM
Blade Cascade is an exception to the rule. Its ability to keep landing attacks until you miss means that you can do arbitrarily large amounts of damage so long as you can get enough attack bonuses and negate 1s.

Most abilities have a fairly strict damage limit, which keeps them from doing the game.

Normally, Epic Daily attack combos do around 100-200 damage to a single target at most, encounters do 50-100, and at-wills 25-50, and that's on strikers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 01:04 PM
Blade Cascade is an exception to the rule. Its ability to keep landing attacks until you miss means that you can do arbitrarily large amounts of damage so long as you can get enough attack bonuses and negate 1s.

Most abilities have a fairly strict damage limit, which keeps them from doing the game.

Normally, Epic Daily attack combos do around 100-200 damage to a single target at most, encounters do 50-100, and at-wills 25-50, and that's on strikers.

Or fighters. But it's impossible to deal 200 damage in a single strike without crits or a massive setup.

Crow
2008-06-07, 01:10 PM
What level is the Cascade of Blades power? And who's list is it in? I checked the Rogue, Ranger and Shadow Assassin. Did I miss it?

Nevermind, found it.

Flickerdart
2008-06-07, 01:25 PM
Also... how is the ranger/rogue getting to make his blade cascade? Orcus can fly and teleport... and if anyone moves or shifts next to him, he gets to tail slap at a +36 bonus that stuns the target until the end of his next turn...

Yeah, its theoretically possible... but it would never happen in a game.
It's in the thread, Boots of Something Or Other let you pop right up to him without provoking anything.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 01:28 PM
It's in the thread, Boots of Something Or Other let you pop right up to him without provoking anything.

Unless teleportation doesn't count as a move, it faces his interrupt.

Just checked. Teleporting doesn't provoke AoOs, no, but Orcus' Tail Lash isn't an AoO. IT's an interrupt he uses upon reaching melee. TEleport doesn't prevent people from using an interrupt to react to your movement.

Zocelot
2008-06-07, 01:33 PM
Or fighters. But it's impossible to deal 200 damage in a single strike without crits or a massive setup.

I can understand how you feel when a fighter does more damage then a striker when you compart level 29 daily powers, but most strikers will be doing more every round. In addition, strickers are more mobile, and all except the 2 weapon Ranger have ranged attacks

Bearonet
2008-06-07, 01:34 PM
Long live balanced 4th edition!

The worst thing in 4E is an (easily-fixed) power that can be combined with a ton of other things to do a lot of damage.

The worst thing in 3E is Free Wishes, or maybe Free Money, or maybe the good old "gate in as many Titans as you like trick."

The worst thing in 4E comes into play at level 20-something.

The worst thing in 3E can come into play as soon as the party has 9,000 gp.

And it's not just "the worst thing", 3E has DOZENS of broken things! 4E has Blade Cascade, and the Blood Mage's Blood Pulse power is overpowered. A couple of other things. Meanwhile, 3E has so many I can't even give you a complete list!


4E is REMARKABLY well balanced, and if you think that one problematic power changes that, I don't know what to tell you.
On top of that, 4E is easier to fix, because all you have to do is tweak individual powers.

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 02:05 PM
First off:
How lovely. Either I make my optimizer useless or let him be godlike. Binary Monsters doesn't sound like any more fun then instantly dead ones.

Maybe I don't want an Arms Race, and any player who tries that **** with me is going to change or leave, regardless of system.

Like pointed by another poster above, elusive target only works agains the target of the dodge feat.

So, it's the perfect way to force the party to work togheter. If the shock trooper jumps alone at the enemies to try to get all the glory they declare him the target of the dodge feat, triggering elusive target and deny him the power attack bonus and he gets slaughtered by his arrogance.

If his teammates advance first, they'll be the ones who become the target of the dodge, and thus of he elusive target, and the shock trooper can jump and tear them to shreds, and everybody gets his share of glory.

However, just like you said right now, most of the times the problem isn't with the system but with the player. If the player is a jerk and wants all the glory for himself, then it doesn't matter how balanced the system is, the game will breack.

If the players just want to have fun togheter, then everything will go well, and they won't start an arms race to see who can make the ultimate badass who can kill Orcus alone.

Anyway, 4e has started to show holes before his oficial release. Who knows what will we see in a year's time? 3.0 wasn't broken from day to night. Give some moretime to the optimizers and they'll show us the real potential of 4e powergaming.

And god help us all when the splatbooks start coming out.

Signmaker
2008-06-07, 02:12 PM
Bear, of course 4e is less broken than 3.5e. It was designed with such things in mind.

However, keep in mind that there have been very few books released for 4e. 3.5 has had dozens.

General Rule for Gaming: The more expansions that exists, the easier it is to 'break' the game.

4e will become worse as each book is released. This is an inevitable fact, and should be noted.

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 02:13 PM
And it's not just "the worst thing", 3E has DOZENS of broken things! 4E has Blade Cascade, and the Blood Mage's Blood Pulse power is overpowered. A couple of other things. Meanwhile, 3E has so many I can't even give you a complete list!

3.5 has 55 rulebooks. Around 100 if you count Eberron and Faerun. 4ed has 3. Just wait a few months and it'll become as broken as 3.5.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Twice! Jeez.

Spiryt
2008-06-07, 02:14 PM
3.5 has 55 rulebooks. Around 100 if you count Eberron and Faerun. 4ed has 3. Just wait a few months and it'll become as broken as 3.5.

The thing is that most broken things in 3.5 are in SRD.

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 02:18 PM
The thing is that most broken things in 3.5 are in SRD.

Funny enough, so is this 3000 dmg per round dealing rogue.

And as far as I know, Thought Bottles, Shock Trooper and other stuff you're refering to (free gold is just stupid) are splatbooks. In order for spellcasters to be truly broken you need stuff like Natural Spell, Divine Metamagic, Twin/Split Ray, Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix, in core they are just better than non-casters.

Bearonet
2008-06-07, 02:20 PM
Bear, of course 4e is less broken than 3.5e. It was designed with such things in mind.

However, keep in mind that there have been very few books released for 4e. 3.5 has had dozens.

General Rule for Gaming: The more expansions that exists, the easier it is to 'break' the game.

4e will become worse as each book is released. This is an inevitable fact, and should be noted.
While this is true, i think that its fundamental structure will help prevent this.

You see, I was talking about 3.5 CORE. 3.5 as a whole has a couple of hundred, not a couple of dozen.



3.5 has 55 rulebooks. Around 100 if you count Eberron and Faerun. 4ed has 3. Just wait a few months and it'll become as broken as 3.5.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Twice! Jeez.
This would be true if I wasn't talking about 3.5 core.

In "a few months", 4E won't be as broken as 3.5. It's set up to prevent that.


Look, why are you dismissing INFINITE WISHES as OK? Incantatrix is broken, but infinite Wishes are a lot worse. So are things like Shapechange and Gate.

Or even the very existence of Gate? OK, the Blade Cascade ranger can one-shot Orcus. Gate can defeat ANY encounter, simply by Gating in something bigger and stronger! Sure, there's an XP cost, but you gain more XP than you lose?

Rutee
2008-06-07, 02:22 PM
Otto's Irresistible Dance instant wins any creature that isn't immune to mind-affecting, and isn't an entire build. It's one selection. The Batman Wizard is comparable to this Rogue, and the Batman Wizard doesn't need all the even-more-broken crap you're talking about.

Spiryt
2008-06-07, 02:24 PM
In order for spellcasters to be truly broken you need stuff like Natural Spell, .

? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell) :smallconfused:

Anyway, most things can be broken. THe thing is that things in SRD, are very unbalanced from beginning no need to break anything too much.

KIDS
2008-06-07, 02:26 PM
I will be immensely surprised if we don't see some brokeness emerging with the next series of splatbooks and large-scale use of the core books, but there's absolutely no way that even the sum of it will be as broken as the core 3.5 books. Those times are hopefully long past.

Artanis
2008-06-07, 02:46 PM
I've said it before, and this seems as good a time as any to say it again:


It's pretty much impossible to remove all imbalance, and this thread is an example of such things that got through in just the first set of 4e core books. However, even if 4e is imbalanced through-and-through (which it may very well be), the fact that the foundation upon which the powers are built lends itself more to balance than in other systems. It's a LOT easier for a dev to break something when everybody uses stuff that doesn't even remotely resemble each other than it is for a dev to break something where everybody is based on similar mechanics.

tl;dr: imbalance is inevitable, and 4e may wind up worse than 3e, but it's still harder for WotC to screw up in the first place, and that has to be worth something

Eighth_Seraph
2008-06-07, 02:49 PM
Exactly what it says on the tin. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin)

Did anyone find or invent any ways of breaking this game already? Let's get back to this, hm? There's a time and a place for polite semi-flaming, but this is not the place.

Foeofthelance
2008-06-07, 03:02 PM
How could it be more game breaking? Kill Orcus in zero turns? That was something not even a batman wizard/planar sheperd/clericzilla of mishra in 3.X could do.

Can someone explain to me how the ability to kill something in one shot is game breaking? I admit that I haven't seen any 4th Ed. materials yet, but I'm assuming this isn't being done at first level. And even if it was, so what?

The rogue is doing an incredible amount of damage, more than enough to one shot what may be the most dangerous threat in the Monster Manual. Ok, I can see how that might make a fight against Orcus by himself either boringly easy or easily amusing (depends on your group and how its handled). But so what? This doesn't make the rogue invincible. Put him in a fight with multiple opponents. Put him in a fight where the opponents are using ranged attacks. And those are the two simplest fixes for this I can see, and they aren't even fixes; just common events in a standard campaign that involves combat. Doing that much damage isn't going to break the game, it's just going to add a certain level of "Rule of Cool" to the proceedings.

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 03:07 PM
^Your argument is as valid as this one:

Batman Wizards are not that powerful. Two Batman Wizards could easily defeat one. That's the easiest fix I've ever seen.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 03:10 PM
Well, no. Batman wizard is an extremely specific build. "Ranged attackers" is not. Nor is "Multiple enemies"

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 03:11 PM
Can someone explain to me how the ability to kill something in one shot is game breaking? I admit that I haven't seen any 4th Ed. materials yet, but I'm assuming this isn't being done at first level. And even if it was, so what?

Because one of the premises of 4e is that the only thing you can kill in one hit are minions.

Normal enemies are suposed to go down in 3-4 hits. Orcus is a solo monster, he has five times as much HP as the normal enemy. And the rogue of doom is still dealing enough damage to kill him twice in a single turn.

He's, thus, doing over 30-40 times the damage a character of his level was suposed to deal.

The rogue isn't killing "something". He's killing an enemy wich should be able to hold the entire party for half a dozen turns.

Wich shows WOTC screwed up with it's math. Again.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 03:13 PM
Indeed. 4th is broken, but much less so than 3.5. For example, Garrote grip is stupidly powerful, and Sleep is the best wizard daily, but they don't b0rk a character, not by a long shot.

Foeofthelance
2008-06-07, 03:23 PM
^Your argument is as valid as this one:

Batman Wizards are not that powerful. Two Batman Wizards could easily defeat one. That's the easiest fix I've ever seen.

That's not quite the same thing though; the problem with a Batman wizard is that not only does he apparently possess the means to defeat anything he might face, he also possess the ability to protect himself from anything he might face, thus rendering him nearly unkillable. If he faces melee opponents he just casts Fly and some wall spell. Ranged opponents he just casts Fly and Wind Wall. Magic users he just casts Fly and Dispell, and so on and so on.

The rogue, on the other hand, just displays a remarkable ability to kill a single target. He still (if they built them similar to 3.x) has mediocre HP and AC. So while he just splattered Jim all over the room, John, Paul and George are still there and probably now looking for a little revenge. he could probably skip two or three rounds of combat, but that just means the session can afford a few more rounds of combat as the story progresses. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other things that can intefere. He might not be able to hit his opponents AC. He might get tapped by a paralyzing spell. He is, in other words, just very good at killing an individual while still vulnerable to all the same threats he was vulnerable to before, many of which he was very likely to encounter as an adventurer in the first place.

Bearonet
2008-06-07, 03:23 PM
Wich shows WOTC screwed up with it's math. Again.
It shows WotC screwed up with its design on one specific power. This is where 4E's good design comes into play: even when WotC has screwed up, it's not a class feature that makes a whole class overpowered. It's a single power, and it's trivial to fix, at that! -2 per every attack after the first two is an easy fix. Putting an upper limit on the number of attacks is an easy fix.

There is seriously no comparison between this and the kind of stuff that exists in 3E.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-07, 03:30 PM
It shows WotC screwed up with its design on one specific power. This is where 4E's good design comes into play: even when WotC has screwed up, it's not a class feature that makes a whole class overpowered. It's a single power, and it's trivial to fix, at that! -2 per every attack after the first two is an easy fix. Putting an upper limit on the number of attacks is an easy fix.

There is seriously no comparison between this and the kind of stuff that exists in 3E.

Just because you can house rule something to fix it doesn't make it balanced.

marjan
2008-06-07, 03:45 PM
It shows WotC screwed up with its design on one specific power.

So far. Give them, and CO boards, more time.


This is where 4E's good design comes into play: even when WotC has screwed up, it's not a class feature that makes a whole class overpowered. It's a single power, and it's trivial to fix, at that!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't powers in 4e something like class features in 3.5e. Or at least like spells, since you could also argue that it's not the class features that make classes imbalanced in 3.5e Core, but spells. Take a look at Warmage - class has spellcasting, but is nowhere near batman.

Just to make sure I'm not delusional about balance in 3.5e. And while 4e might better built toward balancing classes it doesn't mean it will do perfect job.

Tren
2008-06-07, 03:46 PM
Just because you can house rule something to fix it doesn't make it balanced.

I think his point is that even though this one power is broken, the nature of 4E is less likely to make it a system breaking overpower, such as the exponential scaling of wizard spells in 3.X, and therefore much easier to be rebalanced/fixed in any individual group.

SmartAlec
2008-06-07, 03:50 PM
I think his point is that even though this one power is broken, the nature of 4E is less likely to make it a system breaking overpower, such as the exponential scaling of wizard spells in 3.X, and therefore much easier to be rebalanced/fixed in any individual group.

Or on a downloadable errata sheet.

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 03:58 PM
Or on a downloadable errata sheet.

It's a known fact that WOTC would rather publish a whole new edition than provide errata for balance issues, unless it's a case where the rules don't work at all.

Erratas give no money. New editions give lots of it.

Bearonet
2008-06-07, 04:11 PM
Just because you can house rule something to fix it doesn't make it balanced.

No, and that ONE POWER isn't balanced. Nobody's arguing that. That doesn't mean that being easy, no, TRIVIAL to fix isn't a good thing!

And it certainly doesn't mean that a basic *design* which makes unbalanced things easy to fix isn't a good thing. 3.5 didn't have that. 4E does! It's a more robust system.

Flickerdart
2008-06-07, 04:15 PM
I don't think waiting for a whole new edition when the issue is known on the negative 3rd day is a sensible strategy at all.

Now, look. The given Rogue can only do this once a day at level 30. The last level in the Core game. The whole build is based around this one attack. A playable character this is not, by any means. I'm sure anything else could be optimized to last long in combat, with slews of long-lasting powers, and lots of At-Will and Encounter stuff that could easily stop a dozen Rogues like this one from landing their hits. At level 20, even.

One Daily power is broken. So what? WotC can learn from their mistakes, and outside of the hypothetical "Here's an Orcus, create some new level 30 characters to fight him" scenario nothing much has changed.

Put this guy up against a 3.x Batman and he would be slaughtered, even if the numbers were fixed to allow cross-edition battle. Ditto any other archetypal class. Hell, a level 1 Pun-Pun would mop the floor with the Orcus-slayer. Seeing as how 4E doesn't have any of these guys running around, I'd say it's balanced. If they were...3000 damage 1/day would be par for the course.

Zocelot
2008-06-07, 04:16 PM
It's a known fact that WOTC would rather publish a whole new edition than provide errata for balance issues, unless it's a case where the rules don't work at all.

Erratas give no money. New editions give lots of it.

I've been playing 4e for a few days now, and it is way, way more then just fixing 3.5e's problems. An errata will cover up mistakes, but a new edition can get rid of mistakes, and capitilize on the strengths of the previous edition, as well as introduce completely new mechanics.

Gorbash
2008-06-07, 04:20 PM
Well, no. Batman wizard is an extremely specific build. "Ranged attackers" is not. Nor is "Multiple enemies"

Not really. It doesn't even have to be a build. You can be a Wizard 20 with feats like Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise, you'd still own because of the spells you have at your disposal. Taking good feats and even mediocre prestige classes which don't lose caster levels just make you even more powerful.

Zocelot
2008-06-07, 04:38 PM
Not really. It doesn't even have to be a build. You can be a Wizard 20 with feats like Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise, you'd still own because of the spells you have at your disposal. Taking good feats and even mediocre prestige classes which don't lose caster levels just make you even more powerful.

Replace the word "build" with "style of play" then. Batman is a style of play, but ranged attacker or multiple enemies are not.

wodan46
2008-06-07, 07:18 PM
Here's a fix: Blade Cascade may no go on for no more than 4 hits, just like the creature in the Monster Manual has it work.

The same logic that everyone has been whining about is what prohibits uber combos with rare exceptions for ones like above. Attacks generally do limited amounts of damage that's hard to increase and status effects are easily saving throwed. This prevents throwing win switches by doing colossal damage or permanently disabling the target with 1 spell.

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-07, 07:31 PM
What I found disconcerting about Blade Cascade is more what it says about the process of game design. How did this make it through? It's not some subtle combo, or the interaction of a large number of factors, or a single option buried among dozens of other powers - it's a plain old level 15 power, and it really stands out as bad. How can someone look at it and not think "gee, maybe we'd better cap the number of possible attacks?"

What's worse is you barely need to try to break it. You just need a level 15 ranger to take it (and it's one of their three choices - not surprising), and hand them a solid +hit bonus. "Action Surge, Righteous Brand, and Blade Cascade" is quite likely to happen, and it's just as much a OHKO as the level 30 build. The difference is it that the level 30 build is based around being able to do this completely solo, but 4e is built around group combat and there's plenty of ways to jack your attack bonus up (or drop your enemy's AC low enough) for just one turn to puree anything.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-07, 07:35 PM
Just to go back to 3.5's damage being comparable to this rogue:

1) What is the HP of the average 4E monster? 3.5? If the rogue does twice the damage of the HP of the most HP monster, and the Shocktrooper does twice the HP of the most HPed non-epic 3.5 monster, then that's comparable.

However, with the Orbs, some things to keep in mind: Each casting of the spell does between 200 and 300 damage, depending on immunities. (Seriously, if it's immune to everything you are using, it still takes 200 damage.) That is made up of two separate orbs. Which is actually a bonus, because you can still **** someone up in case of a 1.

Secondly, even though it's only 300 damage per cast, you can easily cast 5 times in one round, 6 if you use Celerity. And it is only a 4th level spell being used.


As for my opinion about how "balanced" 4E is, and how many fail safes they have, that's precisely why I don't like 4E. If every attack is literally pathetic damage and a status effect that will be gone in two rounds, why bother, you can make a party of ranger/lock/wizard/laser cleric, and just chain your status effects while staying out of range of most powers. It's not even hard to win, just takes a long time.

Bearonet
2008-06-07, 07:50 PM
As for my opinion about how "balanced" 4E is, and how many fail safes they have, that's precisely why I don't like 4E. If every attack is literally pathetic damage and a status effect that will be gone in two rounds, why bother, you can make a party of ranger/lock/wizard/laser cleric, and just chain your status effects while staying out of range of most powers. It's not even hard to win, just takes a long time.
Ah, yes, "4E is easy mode".

I think everything people who've played through the modules says shows that it's not that easy. Irontooth in Keep on the Shadowfell killed parties pretty regularly. Remember, monsters outnumber you almost always, not the other way around.
4E is about tactical play, not building a character with the right spells and feats and having at it (Blade Cascade abuse excepted).

What you're saying seems to be a kneejerk reaction. It's certainly not based on playing 4E.

Skyserpent
2008-06-07, 07:56 PM
We've really gotten off track haven't we? Can we move the 4e balance discussion to the dozens of other threads about that?

Seriously guys, are the mods going to have to separate us? This trolling is getting tiring quick.

FinalJustice
2008-06-07, 08:06 PM
Guess we already know the first victim of the nerf hammer once PHB4e Errata shows up.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 08:12 PM
Guess we already know the first victim of the nerf hammer once PHB4e Errata shows up.

And I know the second one. Garrote Grip. If you manage to sustain it, the enemy can say bye-bye.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 08:16 PM
Not really. It doesn't even have to be a build. You can be a Wizard 20 with feats like Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise, you'd still own because of the spells you have at your disposal. Taking good feats and even mediocre prestige classes which don't lose caster levels just make you even more powerful.

....Okay, I know spells are overpowered, but I don't think any random spell selection will do the trick.

I mean really, what did you think I meant?


And I know the second one. Garrote Grip. If you manage to sustain it, the enemy can say bye-bye.
You're aware they get checks to break out, right. It's /nasty/ on squishies, though. I'm pretty sure the fighter could peel you off the mage though, common sense wise if not rules wise.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 08:21 PM
....Okay, I know spells are overpowered, but I don't think any random spell selection will do the trick.

I mean really, what did you think I meant?


You're aware they get checks to break out, right. It's /nasty/ on squishies, though. I'm pretty sure the fighter could peel you off the mage though, common sense wise if not rules wise.

Of course. But much like the cascade, it's awe inspiring when combined with deep fried twinkies.

There's also Dragon's Fangs, which does outright nasty damage if both attacks hit, and is on par with ranger damage, or nearly on par. But it ain't as broken as those two.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-07, 08:24 PM
Ah, yes, "4E is easy mode".

I think everything people who've played through the modules says shows that it's not that easy. Irontooth in Keep on the Shadowfell killed parties pretty regularly. Remember, monsters outnumber you almost always, not the other way around.
4E is about tactical play, not building a character with the right spells and feats and having at it (Blade Cascade abuse excepted).

What you're saying seems to be a kneejerk reaction. It's certainly not based on playing 4E.

Maybe I don't think those people looked at the books long enough before starting. Though I will freely admit that 4E elites rape the math so hard. But I don't consider the fact that WotC is math impaired to make up for the fact that they think "I hit it again." is really fun.

And no, it isn't a knee jerk reaction, and yes it is based on playing it.

One thing that is nice about 4e is that I will never really feel bad about what level I am playing. Lord knows I haven't found a single online game on this forum that starts above level 10 in months, and even then it was just one. But that doesn't matter in 4E, because level 1-30 is really just the same thing. Some minor differences, but not enough to really feel bad if you only ever play at level 1.

Rutee
2008-06-07, 08:25 PM
Unless maintaining a grab is to-hit vs. Athletics, I don't think it's nearly as twinkable. Especially not when anything that can bamf can break out, and it's a Daily.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 08:28 PM
Unless maintaining a grab is to-hit vs. Athletics, I don't think it's nearly as twinkable. Especially not when anything that can bamf can break out, and it's a Daily.

How many mobs can Bamf? (Honest question here. I don't know.)

But yes, it is twinkable. There's a few Garrote builds in the CharOp that get completely bestial modifiers, and it's not to hard to get some very nice mods without actually focusing on the things.

Now that I think of it, there's also sleep. Consensus on it is that you shouldn't swap it until level 25.

marjan
2008-06-07, 08:34 PM
I think everything people who've played through the modules says shows that it's not that easy.


You are aware that you are talking about modules here not gaming system. I'm pretty sure if you try you can make a module that is quite deadly fro PCs at level 5 using 3.5 (HINT: put some creatures with CR 10 and there you go).
Now if monsters whose CR (or whatever it is called in 4e) means it will expend 20% of party resources does this regularly then there is obviously some problem with monster, which BTW isn't really balance.

Even if none of the above is the case, how exactly do you know that players that died in this modules are competent enough (meaning they know how their abilities work and how to properly use them)?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-07, 09:28 PM
You are aware that you are talking about modules here not gaming system. I'm pretty sure if you try you can make a module that is quite deadly fro PCs at level 5 using 3.5 (HINT: put some creatures with CR 10 and there you go).
Now if monsters whose CR (or whatever it is called in 4e) means it will expend 20% of party resources does this regularly then there is obviously some problem with monster, which BTW isn't really balance.

Even if none of the above is the case, how exactly do you know that players that died in this modules are competent enough (meaning they know how their abilities work and how to properly use them)?

Which is exactly the case, while I haven't played Shadowfell, as I understand it, the final boss is literally an elite (ruins the math hardcore) level 8 with minions (not 4E minions, these guys are really a big enough deal on their own), and a special circle of magic that buffs him. Guess what level you are supposed to fight them at? Level 4. Yes this model regularly pits you against enemies above the "CR" you are supposed to fight, and thus has no bearing on 4E being a cakewalk.

All that said, I have no problem with 4E being too easy, that can easily be fixed by facing more or stronger enemies. In fact, 4E is more balanced, and consists less of PCs annihilating enemies of their CR (if they play the right characters). The problem is that win or lose, you do the same thing, stay 10-15 squares away spamming slow effects and stuns. Or max your numbers, charge up and mark as many targets as you can, then when you are done wailing heal up with surges.

One thing I liked about 3.5 was that powergaming was actually different then min maxing. Powergaming meant understanding the system and knowing what types of things where more effective. But in 4E all you have to do to make a character is pick a class, pick a stat (sometimes picked for you like with Wizard) and then max all your numbers and pick the power that maxes your numbers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-07, 09:31 PM
Sometimes picked for you like with Wizard

Not quite. You HAVE to have Cha 12, and Wis should be as high if not higher than Int.

Gorbash
2008-06-08, 05:16 AM
....Okay, I know spells are overpowered, but I don't think any random spell selection will do the trick.

I mean really, what did you think I meant?

I didn't say that random spell selection. I was saying that good spell selection is the point of Batman. Feats/Prestige classes can just make him even better, but you don't need them to be on the top of the food chain. They can just make you even more powerful.

Kaerius
2009-10-06, 05:57 AM
A friend of mine told me about a broken 4e thing, not sure how exactly it's done, but I can guess at the basics.

There's a way to get unlimited move and a way to attack during moves for the rest of the turn(or perhaps encounter). This literally means you can kill every living thing on the planet in one turn.

I'm guessing it's some daily power(to attack during move) combined with a free action move ability either turned into at will with arcane sword, or cycled endlessly with demigod/chosen.

That's gotta be the most broken thing in RAW, right?

The New Bruceski
2009-10-06, 07:33 AM
Holy necropost, Batman!

oxinabox
2009-10-06, 07:35 AM
Kill Orcus in zero turns? That was something not even a batman wizard/planar sheperd/clericzilla of mishra in 3.X could do.
You using the phase batman wizard wrong.
Batman wizard wouldn't try a save or die on orcus, he only used save or die, on things that won't suceed on saves (ie things that are bellow (or equal to) appropriate CR).
Orcus is way above CR,
Batman wizard would nutralise him, Empowered no save and suck.
Hightened save or suck.
Then leave orcus, bounded, paralised, all mental scores reduced to 1, on the ground.
for the fighter to full round attack.
Batman wizard's don't kill people, batman wizards make things unable to do anything to stop the fighter making them dead

Sliver
2009-10-06, 07:40 AM
You using the phase batman wizard wrong.
Batman wizard wouldn't try a save or die on orcus, he only used save or die, on things that won't suceed on saves (ie things that are bellow (or equal to) appropriate CR).
Orcus is way above CR,
Batman wizard would nutralise him, Empowered no save and suck.
Hightened save or suck.
Then leave orcus, bounded, paralised, all mental scores reduced to 1, on the ground.
for the fighter to full round attack.
Batman wizard's don't kill people, batman wizards make things unable to do anything to stop the fighter making them dead

And then a necromancer raises them for no reason..

Roland St. Jude
2009-10-06, 09:03 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't revive year old threads. Please review the Forum Rules on Thread Necromancy.