How many Eldar are left?

[13_CBS]

Just how many Eldar are left? What is a good estimate of the population of a "dying race"? 10,000? Less? More? All this talk of the Eldar struggling to survive and such gives me the impression that there are VERY few of them left, perhaps only a few thousand. It seems as though a handful of Space Marine chapters (each a 1000 strong) would easily outnumber the entire Eldar population, non-combatants included.

[Cristo Meyers]

Lesse...my very rough estimate:

There are, what, 4 known craftworlds (Inyanden, Bel-tain, Alitoc, and one more I can't think of). Craftworlds are massive, probably a population of millions in each one, if not more.

I'd say it's more likely that there's billions left

[Solo]

Just remember that when you're talking in galactic terms, a billion of beings here and there is nothing.

[Nonanonymous]

Step 1.) Kidnap every consistent Eldar player in the world.
Step 2.) Count out every Eldar miniature in all of their collections combined.
Step 3.) ????
Step 4.) Profit.

[Attilargh]

There are, what, 4 known craftworlds (Inyanden, Bel-tain, Alitoc, and one more I can't think of).
Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Alaitoc, Ulthwé and Saim-Hann. And that's just the famous ones, I'm fairly certain there's a bunch of others floating around as well.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, we know that Eldar also divide into male and female, as seen on the models. It is therefore safe to assume that they reproduce just like humans. They CAN do that trick, can they?
So, what about dying? Sure, they are no match to the real big players, at least not on a galactic scale, but hey, Hiding is their best skill.

[Cristo Meyers]

Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Alaitoc, Ulthwé and Saim-Hann. And that's just the famous ones, I'm fairly certain there's a bunch of others floating around as well.

Yeah, that's right.

heh, it's been awhile...:smallredface:

[Imrix.]

Yes, they can 'do that trick'. The problem is that a single Eldar birth takes years to come to term, and must be preceded with a great amount of ritual and meditation. All emotions are far more intense for Eldar than for us, so the emotional turmoil created during lovemaking would be world-shatteringly intense, and it requires incrdible preperation to go through with and not risk being caught up in it. For of course, that way lies Slaanesh.

So, certainly the Eldar could repopulate their race. It's theoretically possible, but the problem is that practically speaking they can't. Slaanesh is watching too closely.

[SolkaTruesilver]

We also shouldn't forget the ones that may be living in the Webway..

What I wonder is, how many Necrons are there?

[konfeta]

Enough to own the galaxy. And the Tyranids.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes, they can 'do that trick'. The problem is that a single Eldar birth takes years to come to term, and must be preceded with a great amount of ritual and meditation. All emotions are far more intense for Eldar than for us, so the emotional turmoil created during lovemaking would be world-shatteringly intense, and it requires incrdible preperation to go through with and not risk being caught up in it. For of course, that way lies Slaanesh.

So, certainly the Eldar could repopulate their race. It's theoretically possible, but the problem is that practically speaking they can't. Slaanesh is watching too closely.

"world shatteringly intense"? Please, not even ELDAR sex can be THAT good :smallamused:

[Imrix.]

The sex isn't, no. What's different is that ALL Eldar emotion is magnified many times over compared to human feelings. Comparatively speaking, a humans sadness would barely register on an Eldars emotional spectrum- the same for happiness, rage, contentment, etc etc.

This creates the problem that an Eldar in the act of lovemaking is... Well, I don't think I really need to describe the emotional state humans go through at such a time, do I? Like any set of feelings, an Eldars emotions at the time are many times magnified. It's all too easy for them to get swept up in those feelings, and that way lies Slaanesh. Not to mention that the emotions themselves will resonate in the Warp, attracting the attention of Slaaneshi deamons...

You get the idea. Eldar lovemaking is, put bluntly, a dangerous knifes edge between the strictly-controlled mindset of the Craftworld and its Paths, and the silky whispers of Slaanesh's corrupting influence.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

So... wouldn't it stand to reason that DE (who don't care about that sort of thing) would reproduce alot more often than eldar (which is to say, still not alot, but at least SOME)

[Solo]

The sex isn't, no. What's different is that ALL Eldar emotion is magnified many times over compared to human feelings. Comparatively speaking, a humans sadness would barely register on an Eldars emotional spectrum- the same for happiness, rage, contentment, etc etc.

This creates the problem that an Eldar in the act of lovemaking is... Well, I don't think I really need to describe the emotional state humans go through at such a time, do I? Like any set of feelings, an Eldars emotions at the time are many times magnified. It's all too easy for them to get swept up in those feelings, and that way lies Slaanesh. Not to mention that the emotions themselves will resonate in the Warp, attracting the attention of Slaaneshi deamons...

You get the idea. Eldar lovemaking is, put bluntly, a dangerous knifes edge between the strictly-controlled mindset of the Craftworld and its Paths, and the silky whispers of Slaanesh's corrupting influence.

They can't just make test tube babies?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

apparently, according to Xenology (A book I put no merit in whatsoever) Eldar DNA is so complicated as to make that next to impossible... but I just think thats stupid...

[SolkaTruesilver]

They can't just make test tube babies?

the.. *ahem* male donation chamber would have to be chaos-resistant, no?

[Imrix.]

For my part, I do put a lot of merit in Xenology. I'd be interested in hearing why you don't, Lord_Asmodeus. As for test tube babies... It's possible, but the Eldar find the idea abhorrent. From my research, Eldar 'test tube babies' effectively come out soulless husks.

So far as I can tell, Eldar are too intrinsically tied to the Warp to recreate with cold science. The body is one thing- genetically crafting one would be difficult, but not impossible. But infusing it with a soul, a warp presence on the scale of an Eldar spirit? Where would you even start?

As for the Dark Eldar; yes. They do reproduce a lot faster than their Craftworld counterparts. That's the main reason they're entire culture hasn't died out yet due to infighting.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I don't place much merit in it because, for one it runs contrary to all the beliefs I've formed via other sources, and because it never made sense to me. Why would the Old Ones create a race that is so hard to reproduce, as they intended to use them to fight the C'tan, shouldn't they be able to repopulate their numbers quickly?

[Imrix.]

Because back then there was no Slaanesh to slow the process down, and the Eldar were capable of reincarnation anyway so their population only ever rose.

Besides, from what I can gather the Eldar weren't created specifically to fight the C'tan. Those races came later.

[Jimp]

Enough for them to be freaking awesome.

[Wraith]

apparently, according to Xenology (A book I put no merit in whatsoever) Eldar DNA is so complicated as to make that next to impossible... but I just think thats stupid...

This is, of course, the opinion of a HUMAN coroner. It's perfectly plausible (even likely, depending on how much you value the intelligence of the Imperium) that the Eldar know something they don't about... well, everything in general, but genetics in particular. :smallsmile:

Let's see now... Iyanden, Saim Hann, Ulthwe, Bieltan and Alaitoc are the 'famous' ones. Altansar, Il-Kathe, IyBraesil, Kaelor, Lugganath and Yme-Loc are the 'new' ones introduced in the most recent edition of Codex: Eldar.

The previous edition (40k 2nd ed. I think) and a few other old sourcebooks (Codex Tyranids v2 and v3, the old Rulebook, a few others I forget) have claimed that Iyanden lost somewhere between half and three-quarters of it's living population to the Hive Fleet, leaving only 'thousands' of inhabitants behind.

The most severe interpretation of this is to define the difference between "thousands" and "tens of thousands". Essentially, it's possible in a worst-case-scenario that the Craftworld only held around 40,000 living Eldar (convinient...) and there's now less than 10,000.

40,000 multiplied out by ten suggests half a million Eldar in the largest Craftworlds alone (at the absolute least, mind), and unknown numbers of nomads, Scouts and Harlequin - probably about as many over again as there are Craftworld, if we're being really generous.

Again, depending on how you interpret the semantics, there could be as few as a couple of million Eldar in existence, Wraithconstructs and Spirit Vessels aside.

Dark Eldar, on the other hand.... no idea. Presumably a lot less, given that they exist only in small raiding parties and that any kind of civilisation based INSIDE the Warp can't be a very big one lest it attract the attention of certain... things.

So there you go - at a critical end of the spectrum and with brutal reading of the information available, it's possible that there might not be more than 3 million PLAYABLE Eldar in the galaxy, and the rest are lost on undiscovered Crone Worlds or Craftworlds like Altansar that have been swallowed by the Warp.

Alternatively, we could be optimistic and say that by "thousands", it really means "anything short of half a million, at which point it would have said 'half a million' or something". The numbers go up a hell of a lot faster in this case, giving us 10million Eldar just on the 11 big Craftworlds, and even that's assuming that my maths isn't being conservative.

Umm... I think I lost track of the question... is "Probably more than 10million, if you include the Dark ones too" an acceptable answer, even if just in extremely broad terms? :smallwink:

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's possible that there are seriously tons of Exodites left around, since they are hard to detect even when you're looking at a planet, and don't draw attention to themselves.

Also, Commoragh isn't in the warp - it's in the webway, which is different, and safer.

[Wraith]

Commoragh is inside the webway, which is inside the Warp.

Ergo.... Quick! Look over there! A convinient distraction!

*flees* :smallwink:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

the Webway is as much a part of the warp as it is Realverse. which is to say, not much. Which is sort of the point. It utilizes the Warp without fully being part of it or the physical world.

[Oslecamo]

I would say that the sad truth is that the Eldars, having the most advanced technology of the galaxy, have developed highly addicting games and have the ultimate internet service on each of their craft world.

Thus, even if they are near extinction, the average Eldar will spend his/her free times sited at his uber computer conducting useless discussions with other Eldars, playing games of all kind and the emperor knows what else wastes of time.

Sex is simply outdated for them. Why go on a date with the oposite gender when you could be reading the trillions of stories the Eldars have surely archivated at their databases or pwning other Eldars in super advanced simulations?

How could the oposite gender look atractive when they have the ultimate holo technologies to satisfy any fantasies they may have while being on a killing spree on Exarch of Fortune 3452?

[Victor Thorian]

I would say that the sad truth is that the Eldars, having the most advanced technology of the galaxy, have developed highly addicting games and have the ultimate internet service on each of their craft world.

Thus, even if they are near extinction, the average Eldar will spend his/her free times sited at his uber computer conducting useless discussions with other Eldars, playing games of all kind and the emperor knows what else wastes of time.

Sex is simply outdated for them. Why go on a date with the oposite gender when you could be reading the trillions of stories the Eldars have surely archivated at their databases or pwning other Eldars in super advanced simulations?

How could the oposite gender look atractive when they have the ultimate holo technologies to satisfy any fantasies they may have while being on a killing spree on Exarch of Fortune 3452?

Sorry for big Quote, but it is awesome! 40k Idiocracy!
We know that there isn't much Eldar compared to other races, but since Tau should be also pretty low on population, being "new" and all; how would the comparison go?

[Wraith]

the Webway is as much a part of the warp as it is Realverse. which is to say, not much. Which is sort of the point. It utilizes the Warp without fully being part of it or the physical world.

*Sigh*

I was just a paraphrase, and then just a joke. That's what my little friend ( :smallwink: ) was for.

The point is, they're *somewhere else* where they can't be accurately counted on the grounds that "somewhere" may only partially exist in several dimensions at once (which is, again, a paraphrase of both the Warp and the Webway).

[Imrix.]

While I appreciate Wraith's figure-crunching on possible numbers of remaining Eldar, it does have to be pointed out that, put bluntly, 40k writers have no sense of scale. They'll describe a system-wide war, then tout numbers like 'thousands' and sometimes 'millions' which simply aren't up to scratch when compared with a reasonable estimate of what a battle spanning a system would be like.

As a result, basing any conjecture on a quote from GW based on numbers is an inherently flawed action. That aside, Kudos to Wraith for his rational and logical approach to the problem.

The problem is also compounded due to the fact that nobody has any idea how many craftworlds exist. We know of the 'big five' of Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann, Ulthwe, Iyanden and Alaitoc, along with some secondary Craftworlds such as Il-Kaithe, Kaelor, Lugganath and Yme-loc which are mentioned in the Eldar Codex.

Those are a few examples of craftworlds that the Imperium is aware of- keeping in mind that the Imperium is not adept at telling differing Eldar apart, and the Eldar are very adept at hiding their presence (and that Craftworlds are intrinsically elusive targets), then I would make a conservative estimate at there being anywhere between twelve and twenty Craftworlds floating around, and my genorous estimates would stretch anywhere up to a couple of hundred.

The galaxy, after all, is a very big place.

Keeping in mind that a single Craftworld is effectively a planet, and indeed can house more people than a planet considering that you can house people inside it as well as on its surface, it can be safely assumed that a single Craftworld can house several billion Eldar. Capable, of course, is not the same thing as actually doing so.

Aside from this, we have almost no idea how many Eldar may exist as Outcasts (rangers, corsairs and the like) but it's notable that Corsairs frequently maintain powerful fleets, and the Warhammer universe tends to err on the larger side when it comes to starships, with capitol ships frequently boasting crews several thousand strong. It can be assumed with a relative degree of safety that Eldar ships do not require quite that many warm bodies, but how many is a mostly unanswered question. A couple of thousand? Several hundred? Several dozen?

Then of course there are the matter of the Exodites, who are even more of an enigma. How big is an Exodite community on average? A few hundred souls? A few thousand? A million? On a single planet, none of these numbers are particularly large, remember.

And the Dark Eldar? How big IS Commeragh? How many Kabals are there? On average, how big is a Kabal? How many Dark Eldar exist that are unnaffiliated with any Kabal?

After reading that you may have an idea of the scale of the problem this question entails. There are simply too many variables to make anything better than a wild guess based on assigning arbitrary numbers to each unknown.

[Solo]

While I appreciate Wraith's figure-crunching on possible numbers of remaining Eldar, it does have to be pointed out that, put bluntly, 40k writers have no sense of scale. They'll describe a system-wide war, then tout numbers like 'thousands' and sometimes 'millions' which simply aren't up to scratch when compared with a reasonable estimate of what a battle spanning a system would be like.

Why not?

The First World War saw millions die over pieces of territory the size of your average high school cafeteria.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Why not?

The First World War saw millions die over pieces of territory the size of your average high school cafeteria.

So wouldn't it stand to reason in the future billions would die over pieces of territory the size of your average high school? :smalltongue:

[Imrix.]

Precisely! Warhammer writers numbers for battles aren't too large, far from it. What they are is far, far too small. Historically, wars have been fought with millions of troops on this planet alone. That's between factions that are not even in control of a single planet, let alone entire systems of them.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Precisely! Warhammer writers numbers for battles aren't too large, far from it. What they are is far, far too small. Historically, wars have been fought with millions of troops on this planet alone. That's between factions that are not even in control of a single planet, let alone entire systems of them.

This, to me, betrays a lack of experience in 40k. There are countless accounts of how countless billions are lost in wars that, in the end, could accomplish NOTHING AT ALL, they might win some world that, by the end of the fighting, are DEAD and BARREN. Yes, there are battles which have to do with millions, but really, this makes sense, because you don't always need to send millions of people to fight over a world, just some million, because there aren't that many enemies, or you only need to hold certain specific locations. A battle for a whole system could only have something thousand men on each side, because theres only one habitable world, and you have to take a specific, strategic, location to be able to hold the world, or else your enemy who occupies the world can just strike back again and again, you know what I mean? It varies depending on situations, and is never constant.

[Solo]

So wouldn't it stand to reason in the future billions would die over pieces of territory the size of your average high school? :smalltongue:

Untold billions, GRIMDARK high school, yes.

[Imrix.]

Certainly, Asmodeus. That doesn't change the fact however, that all too often the major campaigns such as the 13th black crusade describe major battles as playing host to a few thousand or million troops.

Generally, the codexes do a decent job. The problems come, as ever, from the Black Library as well as occasionally in other areas.

As for a 'lack of experience in 40k' ... I'm not touching that one. That way lies the comparison of e-penises, which I really can't be bothered with.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Certainly, Asmodeus. That doesn't change the fact however, that all too often the major campaigns such as the 13th black crusade describe major battles as playin host to a few thousand or million troops.

Which could make perfect sense depending on the context. I mean a fight between the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists isn't going to involve billions, or hell even millions, since there AREN'T THAT MANY.


Generally, the codexes do a decent job. The problems come, as ever, from the Black Library as well as occasionally in other areas.

Well, I think you're wrong. Scale depends on context. If its a siege on a big fortress, it probably isn't going to involve billions (unless its like a hive world)


As for a 'lack of experience in 40k' ... I'm not touching that one. That way lies the comparison of e-penisii, which I really can't be bothered with.

No, that way lies the genuine concern of "do you know wtf you're talking about"

[Solo]

As for a 'lack of experience in 40k' ... I'm not touching that one. That way lies the comparison of e-penises, which I really can't be bothered with.

In other words, no credentials?

[Talkkno]

We know that there isn't much Eldar compared to other races, but since Tau should be also pretty low on population, being "new" and all; how would the comparison go?
In the novel Firewarrior, it is noted by a fire warrior that they express sheer disbief when it is revealed that a single hive world has more people in it then all the Tau in the Tau Empire.

[Imrix.]

Yes, fine, in a fight between Loyalist and Traitor Astartes the numbers won't get that high. It should be noted however that the number of battles of that nature doesn't get that big, either. Despite the fact that Astartes form over half the armies on the tabeltop, in the backstory they are very much a niche. Remember that quote about there being less than one Astartes for each world of the Imperium?

Besides. How often, honestly, do you expect a battle to arise between solely the Traitor Astartes and the Loyalists? Note the word 'battle' there, because honestly that's not a battle, that's a skirmish. Generally, once you get up to the size of an actual battle or a sizable war, the Guard are involved, along with the local PDF, Missions of the Adepta Sororitas, Inquisitorial warbands, the Imperial Navy, etc etc. If there's enough of a Daemonic presence then who knows, maybe the Grey Knights will be able to lend a hand.

As for credentials... Fine. Five years, two armies, far too many hours logged on forums, every codex in the game and only a single shelf full of the books. I started shortly after the Tau were released (damnable blue midgets...)

Happy now?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

In the novel Firewarrior, it is noted by a fire warrior that they express sheer disbief when it is revealed that a single hive world has more people in it then all the Tau in the Tau Empire.

That makes no sense at all. There's only a few billion in a Hive World, and the Tau control the entire Damocles gulf, thats like 20-30 worlds at least. More than unlikely, it seems impossible that there aren't even that many Tau on T'au, their homeworld. I mean, I could buy that there are only millions on some of their worlds (especially the newer ones) but not even having a few billion in their ENTIRE EMPIRE? That sounds like either a typo, or the work of someone with no sense of scale, to prove my point, please pay attention to this starmap, the Damocles Gulf (Tau Territory) is bottom right.

40k Starmap (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/wh40k_starmap.jpg)

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes, fine, in a fight between Loyalist and Traitor Astartes the numbers won't get that high. It should be noted however that the number of battles of that nature doesn't get that big, either. Despite the fact that Astartes form over half the armies on the tabeltop, in the backstory they are very much a niche. Remember that quote about there being less than one Astartes for each world of the Imperium?

And yet, they would still form the mainstay of the armies fighting the Traitor Legions (The "Big Threat" of the Black Crusades)


Besides. How often, honestly, do you expect a battle to arise between solely the Traitor Astartes and the Loyalists? Note the word 'battle' there, because honestly that's not a battle, that's a skirmish. Generally, once you get up to the size of an actual battle or a sizable war, the Guard are involved, along with the local PDF, Missions of the Adepta Sororitas, Inquisitorial warbands, the Imperial Navy, etc etc. If there's enough of a Daemonic presence then who knows, maybe the Grey Knights will be able to lend a hand.

Look, the only battles that will likely involve BILLIONS of soldiers are fights with either the Orks or the Nids (and even then it will vary GREATLY depending on the size of the fleet. A small splinter fleet will get maybe 6 regiments, but a full hive fleet will get huge armies) And again, the size of the Ork incursion will dictate the strength of the response. The IoM can't afford to throw every soldier they have at every problem that pops up. I think its silly to think that every, or hell, MOST battles will involve billions of soldiers. When they say countless billions die in the wars against mankinds enemies, they're talking about the whole Imperium.


As for credentials... Fine. Five years, two armies, far too many hours logged on forums, every codex in the game and only a single shelf full of the books. I started shortly after the Tau were released (damnable blue midgets...)

Happy now?

A similar number of years, two armies, a fleet, no doubt twice as many hours on the forums, I can't match the codex's but I have read almost every 40k book thats come out. And how are the Tau midgets? And really, discounting the books is silly, because they're official canon.

Edit: Sorry for the double post

[Illiterate Scribe]

And really, discounting the books is silly, because they're official canon.

MULTILAZORZ!

[puppyavenger]

And really, discounting the books is silly, because they're official canon

and all the EU are cannon in star-wars. do you know anyone who doesn't discount any(not counting people who don't read any.)

[Lord_Asmodeus]

and all the EU are cannon in star-wars. do you know anyone who doesn't discount any(not counting people who don't read any.)

Its different. For 40k the novels give the feel of the universe, what its really supposed to be like. Disregarding all the books just because you don't like them isn't something you can do in any sort of debate. You don't like the books, fine, but what they say is what happens in 40k, and though some people may disregard some of them, disregarding them all makes no sense at all.

[Imrix.]

And yet, they would still form the mainstay of the armies fighting the Traitor Legions (The "Big Threat" of the Black Crusades)

Wrong. Space Marines are not a fighting force meant for fighting a protracted engagement- they're special forces meant for surgical strikes. They are not, in any sense, the mainstay of the Imperiums fighting forces. That honour falls to the ever-vigilant blend of the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy, who outnumber the Astartes by a few orders of magnitude.

For example, who are the guards of the Cadian Gate? If the Astartes were, as you say, the 'mainstay of the armies fighting the Traitor Legions' then surely it would be a Chapter or three? Except it's not, it's the infamous Cadian Imperial Guard regiments.

The image of the Imperiums standing armies is very deceptive, because so much of GW's backstory is based on the Space Marines. You can hardly blame them- they sell miniatures, make for good stories and are the iconic image of Warhammer 40,000. But the fact is that the image is distorted in favour of the Astartes, and for the most part the battles of the Imperium are waged by the Guard with Navy support. Most Guardsmen will never even see a Space Marine, let alone fight alongside one.


Look, the only battles that will likely involve BILLIONS of soldiers are fights with either the Orks or the Nids (and even then it will vary GREATLY depending on the size of the fleet. A small splinter fleet will get maybe 6 regiments, but a full hive fleet will get huge armies) And again, the size of the Ork incursion will dictate the strength of the response. The IoM can't afford to throw every soldier they have at every problem that pops up. I think its silly to think that every, or hell, MOST battles will involve billions of soldiers. When they say countless billions die in the wars against mankinds enemies, they're talking about the whole Imperium.

I never said every battle, I'm talking about the major campaigns, such as the major Black Crusades (any of the ones commanded by Abaddon usually qualify for that, unlike the Ninth), the wars for and around Armageddon and so on.

Even so, I think you're underestimating the numbers a little here. A billion soldiers is, in galactic terms, not all that much. Hell, most planets retain a history of raising and maintaining hundreds of regiments, and even if we take a conservative guess at assuming only, say, half of those regiments are still functioning, that's still several hundred thousand soldiers marked down as the resources of a single planet.

To take an example from one of the Imperiums more numerous enemies, a Tyranid hive fleet is frequently described as several trillion ships. That's ships, keep in mind, not individual troops, and each of those ships is capable of disgorging at the minimum several thousand troops- generally they'll vomit forth something more in the millions region. That is the scale of 40k's battles, and that is what I mean when I talk about a major battle.

In galactic terms, a billion soldiers here or there is a drop in the ocean. The Crusade fleet tasked with wiping the Tau from existence, a comparatively minor war by 40k scales, probably still numbered several million soldiers, by my conservative estimates.


A similar number of years, two armies, a fleet, no doubt twice as many hours on the forums, I can't match the codices but I have read almost every 40k book thats come out. And how are the Tau midgets? And really, discounting the books is silly, because they're official canon.

Fixed it for you.

I'm not discounting the books, by the way, I'm just aware that a lot of Black Library's authors aren't all that good. The shelf is pretty packed, it's just all I happen to have at the moment.

On a related note though... Official canon? ALL of them? Sir, if you try and tell me that C.S. Goto, the man who arms Space Marines with multilasers and believes that a Spore Mine is not only capable of dragging an Astartes away but would rather do so than explode next to them, and invents a Hormagaunt capable of holding a Space Marine Librarian down by sheer weight all within the first chapter of one of his books...

Sir, if you try and tell me that, then put bluntly, I shall quite possibly expire with raucous laughter.

[Mr. Scaly]

Not many I hope. Any species cold enough to sacrifice billions of lives to save one of their own is scum and deserves beatings. Hopefully the Imperium will get down to it sooner or later. Or da Orks. Or the next hive fleet. Or whatever.

[Imrix.]

It's not quite that simple, Mr. Scaly. To the Eldar, other races are little more than animals- if you try and argue that because they sacrifice billions of lives they should be exterminated, then you have to argue the same thing about present-day humanity for its sacrifice of various cows, sheep, chickens and other such creatures to preserve our race.

For that matter, if the extermination of the lives of an alien species to further the survival of your own is such a horrendous action, then how much worse must it be to do so for the cause of having fun? That's the Orks down for extermination then.

Or what about because they're in the way of your divine right to rule (as decided by you)? That's humans marked for extinction then.

I could go on. Simply put, Mr. Scaly, every race in 40k is evil to one degree or another and fully deserves to be obliterated in atomic fire for its sins. It's a chilling notion that the Eldar, whose only goal is the preservation of their species, are one of the 'least' evil in the galaxy.

[ArtifexFelicis]

I could go on. Simply put, Mr. Scaly, every race in 40k is evil to one degree or another and fully deserves to be obliterated in atomic fire for its sins.

What about the Tau? :smallbiggrin:

As for Eldar numbers, I normally assume something in the several billions for the Eldar. Maybe 10 or 15 at least. Not about 100 Billion I would think. They may even outnumber the Tau by a bit in terms of sheer numbers, not counting their allies of course. I'm probably wrong though.

[Mr. Scaly]

Imrix, all true. But I didn't actually wish that they'd all get wiped out by someone. I meant 'beatings' quite literally. Getting smacked around a few times would even things out in my eyes. :smallwink:

Seriously though, from what I know about Eldar the whole 'everyone is expendable' attitude is pretty reasonable considering how few of them there are and how exalted they used to be. But like you said, they're supposed to be one of the good guys not manipulative bastards, and if there's one thing I hate more than elves it's the good guys being evil.

[Illiterate Scribe]

What about the Tau? :smallbiggrin:

No, they're quasi-fascist Cecil Rhodes types with a penchant for committing atrocities not even in self defence, but 'for the greater good'.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Wrong. Space Marines are not a fighting force meant for fighting a protracted engagement- they're special forces meant for surgical strikes. They are not, in any sense, the mainstay of the Imperiums fighting forces. That honour falls to the ever-vigilant blend of the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy, who outnumber the Astartes by a few orders of magnitude.

Way to read what I wrote. I'm specifically refurring to occurences involving large scale conflicts with the Traitor Legions, in which case, you better be damn sure the Astartes will be leading the charge.


For example, who are the guards of the Cadian Gate? If the Astartes were, as you say, the 'mainstay of the armies fighting the Traitor Legions' then surely it would be a Chapter or three? Except it's not, it's the infamous Cadian Imperial Guard regiments.

The Mainstay, the backbone, the people who do most of the actual winning. For all the skill of the Cadian guardsman, if it weren't for the Astartes (and every other damn organization in the Imperium) showing up, they'd get swept away.


The image of the Imperiums standing armies is very deceptive, because so much of GW's backstory is based on the Space Marines. You can hardly blame them- they sell miniatures, make for good stories and are the iconic image of Warhammer 40,000. But the fact is that the image is distorted in favour of the Astartes, and for the most part the battles of the Imperium are waged by the Guard with Navy support. Most Guardsmen will never even see a Space Marine, let alone fight alongside one.

See, if you read more books, you'd know that there are TONS of books about Guardsman, and in them there are usually only like 6 regiments at best in one place, certainly not mass numbers. And really "standing armies" is sort of an oxymoron in the IoM, given how many enemies it has.


I never said every battle, I'm talking about the major campaigns, such as the major Black Crusades (any of the ones commanded by Abaddon usually qualify for that, unlike the Ninth), the wars for and around Armageddon and so on.

Again, it depends upon the context. The Iron Warriors laying siege to a big citadel on a planet is probably going to involve tens of thousands, or perhaps millions, but not billions, not unless its like a fortress world.



Even so, I think you're underestimating the numbers a little here. A billion soldiers is, in galactic terms, not all that much. Hell, most planets retain a history of raising and maintaining hundreds of regiments, and even if we take a conservative guess at assuming only, say, half of those regiments are still functioning, that's still several hundred thousand soldiers marked down as the resources of a single planet.

So? Sure in galactic terms a few billion isn't all that much, thats why countless billions die all over the Imperium, but I think you overestimate the "average threat" really the greatest threat to the Imperium is as much the thousands of smaller wars and battles that sporadically pop up as it is the massive incursions.


To take an example from one of the Imperiums more numerous enemies, a Tyranid hive fleet is frequently described as several trillion ships. That's ships, keep in mind, not individual troops, and each of those ships is capable of disgorging at the minimum several thousand troops- generally they'll vomit forth something more in the millions region. That is the scale of 40k's battles, and that is what I mean when I talk about a major battle.

That would be one of the "major incursions" that I mentioned would warrant such massive numbers of meat shields.


In galactic terms, a billion soldiers here or there is a drop in the ocean. The Crusade fleet tasked with wiping the Tau from existence, a comparatively minor war by 40k scales, probably still numbered several million soldiers, by my conservative estimates.

And as you said, several million is nothing in galactic terms. Not very impressive.




Fixed it for you.

Don't.


I'm not discounting the books, by the way, I'm just aware that a lot of Black Library's authors aren't all that good. The shelf is pretty packed, it's just all I happen to have at the moment.

When you say "aware" it makes it sound likes its a truth. It is not, its an opinion held by you. I like the majority of 40k books, and don't think the authors are bad.


On a related note though... Official canon? ALL of them? Sir, if you try and tell me that C.S. Goto, the man who arms Space Marines with multilasers and believes that a Spore Mine is not only capable of dragging an Astartes away but would rather do so than explode next to them, and invents a Hormagaunt capable of holding a Space Marine Librarian down by sheer weight all within the first chapter of one of his books...

Sir, if you try and tell me that, then put bluntly, I shall quite possibly expire with raucous laughter.

At least I won't have to listen to you blather on anymore. He is. It is. I don't care if you like it, I don't care if you think his books are good, if BL publishes it, it's canon. Now, considering it was his FIRST BOOK, a few problems here and there are to be expected. No one starts out being the best at something, and discounting an author because his first work wasn't the best is... bad.

[Bryn]

If every book published by the Black Library is canon, then the background would be much too contradictory to discuss it in anyway. Therefore, I have generally been under the impression that the Black Library books are only semi-canon, and that if they conflict with GW-published sources, e.g. codices, the GW sources are to be treated as the true canon.

As an example of this, Xenology depicts a Tau that lacks hooves. In the Tau codex, and every other GW source, Tau have hooves, hence this part of Xenology is wrong and this part is discounted; not canon. On the other hand, if it doesn't conflict with anything, then it's fair enough for the books to be treated as canon.

That's the impression I get from most 40k discussions, anyway.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

If every book published by the Black Library is canon, then the background would be much too contradictory to discuss it in anyway. Therefore, I have generally been under the impression that the Black Library books are only semi-canon, and that if they conflict with GW-published sources, e.g. codices, the GW sources are to be treated as the true canon.

As an example of this, Xenology depicts a Tau that lacks hooves. In the Tau codex, and every other GW source, Tau have hooves, hence this part of Xenology is wrong and this part is discounted; not canon. On the other hand, if it doesn't conflict with anything, then it's fair enough for the books to be treated as canon.

That's the impression I get from most 40k discussions, anyway.

Well they're all canon, its just that you aren't supposed to take it all completely literally, especially things which are done from a certain sides of point of view, since there's no accounting for ignorance or bias.

[Bryn]

That's fair enough if the story is presented from the point of view of somebody, but most stories are written from the point of view of the omniscient narrator. Unfortunately, not all Black Library authors are good at checking their sources, and so we must discount the bits of the books that can't be accurate.

As far as I am aware, GW have never released a statement saying that all Black Library books are either canon or not canon. Without any such statement, in my opinion (though I have no real logic to support this) the easiest position to take is 'canon unless it conflicts with something, in which case default to the official source if there is one'.

[Gorb]

Okay, been reading through this thread (40k is something of a favourite topic of mine), and my response can only be summed up as "argh".


Well they're all canon, its just that you aren't supposed to take it all completely literallySee below.


If every book published by the Black Library is canon, then the background would be much too contradictory to discuss it in anyway. Therefore, I have generally been under the impression that the Black Library books are only semi-canon, and that if they conflict with GW-published sources, e.g. codices, the GW sources are to be treated as the true canon.All very valid points. Canon means it is something to be taken literally, you can't take something that's defined as canon and not take it all "completely literally".

And, going further back through this thread:


if it weren't for the Astartes (and every other damn organization in the Imperium) showing up, they'd get swept away.Every other damn organisation in the Imperium? Like who? The Grey Knights (and by extension, the Inquisition and the Sisters of Battle) do not get involved in the regular and sundry invasions from the Cadian Gate. The Cadian Guard handle them. Also, the Imperial Guard IS the mainstay of the Emperor's armies, just as the Imperial Navy is the mainstay of the Emperor's fleets (i.e. the Chapter fleets are NOT the mainstay of the Imperium's naval defense).


I don't care if you like it, I don't care if you think his books are good, if BL publishes it, it's canon. Now, considering it was his FIRST BOOK, a few problems here and there are to be expected.Again, no. No, no, no, no, NO. BL books are not necassarily canon. Refer to the point made by Z-Axis above about what is canon and what isn't. Also, Warrior Brood was NOT his first book. He wrote Dawn of War beforehand (and I'm pretty sure the first sequel, Ascension, was also out before Warrior Brood was published).

Sorry if that came across as a bit heated, but C.S. Goto's work is widely regarded to be fantastical rubbish and completely at ends with every other 40k book published by Black Library in existence.

[Imrix.]

ArtifexFelicis: The Tau are undoubtedly the least evil race, but they still have their dark patches. Their naivety and idealism is being worn down by the dark galaxy they've found themselves in. Although they will negotiate, it tends to be a fairly one-sided affair- their bargaining chips tend to boil down to the threat of orbital annihilation, for example, and their non-Tau allies are usually heavily oppressed.


if there's one thing I hate more than elves it's the good guys being evil.

Then 40k isn't your game, Mr. Scaly. There ARE no 'good guys'. One of the main things I like about Warhammer is that everybody, to one degree or another, is irrevocably evil. Take a look at any single race and I guarantee you, it will come up as evil.

The Tyranids want to devour the galaxy. It's easy to sympathise with them for being effectively mindless animals, but any way you slice it wanting to devour the galaxy is wanting to devour the galaxy!

The Necrons want to enslave all life for their godlike masters to devour at their leisure, mixed with a good deal of extermination ofr reasons of ingrained prejudice. I don't think I need to say any more on that count.

Chaos... Where do I even start? Seriously, where do I start listing the atrocities of a faction whose big motto is "LET THE GALAXY BURN!"?

The Tau... See top of the post.

The Eldar are, as you say, manipulative bastards who sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people on an almost daily basis to preserve their own skins.

The Dark Eldar are sadomasochistic, slavetaking soul-devourers. 'Nuff said.

The Orks want to fight and destroy everything for no better reason than finding it fun.

And the Imperium? The Imperium is corrupt, oppressive, totalitarian, fascist, backwards, xenophobic and filled with religious persecution and zealotry. Do I seriously need to argue how evil they are?


Way to read what I wrote. I'm specifically refurring to occurences involving large scale conflicts with the Traitor Legions, in which case, you better be damn sure the Astartes will be leading the charge.

Yes, and I'm arguing on the basis of conflict in general- INCLUDING the battles against traitor legions. The Astartes won't be leading the charge then or in any other major conflict- In that case, the Cadians will by virtue of being there the moment the battle starts. Since they're the attacked planet and all.

Hell, it goes both ways. In a a Black Crusade, the Traitor Legions aren't even the largest part- most of a Black Crusade is made up of traitor guardsmen, mutants and daemons. The Astartes would certainly be in the harshest points of the fighting, but the bulk of the battle is still a matter of Guardsmen, traitors and mutants- not Space Marines of any breed.

Unfortunately, as I've said, the picture is badly-skewed because the Space Marines are GW's best-represented faction. Which can only be expected, seeing as they're the companies poster boys.


The Mainstay, the backbone, the people who do most of the actual winning. For all the skill of the Cadian guardsman, if it weren't for the Astartes (and every other damn organization in the Imperium) showing up, they'd get swept away.

The bulk of the actual winning? Hardly. The bulk of the fighting, and therefore by default the winning (and the losing, and the drawing) is made up of Guardsmen. Simply put, the numbers make sure of it.

And yes, the Cadian guardsmen would be swept away if it were'nt be reinforcements. That's not because of the Astartes specifically, so much as it's because trying to compare the Cadian guardsmen versus a Black Crusades spectrum of forces is uneven however you slice it.

In such a situation, the Guardsmen do need reinforcements. Otherwise you're comparing the Cadian fortifications to incoming fleets, Space Marines, armoured regiments, traitor guardsmen, mutant hordes, daemonic incursions, etc etc. You have to add Imperial reinforcements to that equation to balence the scale, and Space Marines, while the most well-known part of the reinforcements, are not the largest part of them by far.


See, if you read more books, you'd know that there are TONS of books about Guardsman, and in them there are usually only like 6 regiments at best in one place, certainly not mass numbers.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I've also read several of those books. What I'm also aware of is that there are tons MORE books about Space Marines. I'm also aware that in most of those situations the battles depicted are fairly minor- the entire Ciaphas Cain series, for example, never depicts a battle larger than a single planet and usually only a small part of one.


Again, it depends upon the context. The Iron Warriors laying siege to a big citadel on a planet is probably going to involve tens of thousands, or perhaps millions, but not billions, not unless its like a fortress world.

What's your point? That's not a major engagement, and I'm not arguing about anything else. One fortress on one planet is barely even a skirmish, relatively speaking.


So? Sure in galactic terms a few billion isn't all that much, thats why countless billions die all over the Imperium, but I think you overestimate the "average threat" really the greatest threat to the Imperium is as much the thousands of smaller wars and battles that sporadically pop up as it is the massive incursions.

And the backstory tends to focus rather more on the more importent battles, because they're inhrenetly more interesting. A meaningless fight on some backwater planet where a few yobos are revolting is hardly the setting for a good read, hm?

Again, I'm not arguing about the minor engagements, wars and rebellions that crop up across the Imperium on an almost daily basis. I'm arguing about the depiction of major wars spanning at the least a solar system or more. Special exceptions for critically importent worlds such as Armageddon, mind.


When you say "aware" it makes it sound likes its a truth. It is not, its an opinion held by you. I like the majority of 40k books, and don't think the authors are bad.

Nothing a human being says or thinks is "the truth", absolutes are... No, no, I'm not going to get into abstract philosophy. In any case, yes it is an opinion held by me, along with a fair chunk of the Warhammer community. I certainly see it bandied about rather a frequently on pertinent forums (Relicnews' Tabletop section, for example).


At least I won't have to listen to you blather on anymore. He is. It is. I don't care if you like it, I don't care if you think his books are good, if BL publishes it, it's canon. Now, considering it was his FIRST BOOK, a few problems here and there are to be expected. No one starts out being the best at something, and discounting an author because his first work wasn't the best is... bad.


I suppose I can count my blessings my point is still valid then, considering it WASN'T his first work. His first books were in fact the Dawn of War novels. Warrior Brood came much later, and if anything sucked even more.

[Bryn]

And the backstory tends to focus rather more on the more importent battles, because they're inhrenetly more interesting. A meaningless fight on some backwater planet where a few yobos are revolting is hardly the setting for a good read, hm?

I agree with all your points, but it's worth mentioning that a small-scale engagement can be a very good read, often equally interesting to the really large scale battles. As an example, I am a big fan of Imperial Armour IV: the Anphelion Project, which explicity states that it will have no effect on the wider universe on the first page; likewise, Fifteen Hours is about a futile trench war.

None of that has any effect on your arguments, though. If I'm honest, I just posted to plug IA4 Fifteen Hours :smallbiggrin:

[Talkkno]

That makes no sense at all. There's only a few billion in a Hive World, and the Tau control the entire Damocles gulf, thats like 20-30 worlds at least. More than unlikely, it seems impossible that there aren't even that many Tau on T'au, their homeworld. I mean, I could buy that there are only millions on some of their worlds (especially the newer ones) but not even having a few billion in their ENTIRE EMPIRE? That sounds like either a typo, or the work of someone with no sense of scale, to prove my point, please
My bad, a bit off by mangitudude or so, i checked it again, a single hive world has more then a single sept system.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

This just getting annoying. All you do is throw the same goddamn argument back in my face every time I post, even when I'm not saying the same thing. The Astartes do in fact lead a large number of "charges" against Traitor Legions, because THEY ARE MORTAL ENEMIES. Yes, the FIRST battles appear on Cadia without the SM, but I didn't say that they would be the first to the fight, I said they would "lead the charge" (I.E. they would be among the first to arrive when the Traitors rear their heads, and among the first to get stuck in beside the Cadians) And its not like there's going to be one battle involving just SM and CSM and another involving just mutants and heretics and the IG, they would be fighting in the SAME BATTLES most probably, except for some odd battles out. And the Iron Warriors taking a big Citadel on some world IS a major battle, if the world is important. Major battles don't have to be massive wars, they just have to be battles that are of great strategic importance. If the Iron Warriors taking that planet allows for the Traitors to strike even deeper into IoM space, it WAS a major battle, just not a big one necessarily. And again, there are tons of books and backstory about the smaller less important battles. Hell, a good half of the books I've read deal with small level threats which, even if the enemy won, would barely effect the IoM. And my opinion is also held by many Warhammer fans. And no Gorb, Canon does NOT mean its supposed to be taken 100% literally, Canon means "this is official".
And Imrix I misread your post, I thought you said "in his first book". And Gorb, what makes you think the Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy "don't get involved"? Wouldn't a Black Crusade be the THE TIME when the Gray Knights and the Sisters of Battle SHOULD get involved, and in LARGE NUMBERS?

[Illiterate Scribe]

This just getting annoying.

There is noone standing behind you who will administer the Emperor's Mercy to you if you don't rebut all ofhis points.


And no Gorb, Canon does NOT mean its supposed to be taken 100% literally, Canon means "this is official".

Yes. It means that it is to be taken officially that such a thing is said by a certain person. Canonicity, however, is most certainly a matter of being taken literally.


And Imrix I misread your post, I thought you said "in his first book". And Gorb, what makes you think the Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy "don't get involved"?

Uh, because the Inquisition aren't a fighting force?

Seriously, calm down, LA - you seem fairly angry. Go for a walk outside or something. It's a lovely summer's day where I am, and I'm sitting outside in the garden.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

There is noone standing behind you who will administer the Emperor's Mercy to you if you don't rebut all ofhis points.

Of course not, they're dead. I just don't like leaving posts unanswered on this forum (EE's "I win if you don't respond" thing has got me paranoid)



Yes. It means that it is to be taken officially that such a thing is said by a certain person. Canonicity, however, is most certainly a matter of being taken literally.


Well I mean like, A canon quote from say, an Inquisitor, would mean thats what he REALLY said, but whether or not he's right, or if he's telling the truth... well thats a different matter.




Uh, because the Inquisition aren't a fighting force?


No, but the Gray Knights, and the Sisters of Battle (and the Death Watch) are, by virtue of being the military arm of their respective Ordos


Seriously, calm down, LA - you seem fairly angry. Go for a walk outside or something. It's a lovely summer's day where I am, and I'm sitting outside in the garden.

I just feel like my actual points are being ignored, and that pisses me off.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Of course not, they're dead. I just don't like leaving posts unanswered on this forum (EE's "I win if you don't respond" thing has got me paranoid)

Evil Elitest models himself on Napoleon. We all know what happened to him ...


Well I mean like, A canon quote from say, an Inquisitor, would mean thats what he REALLY said, but whether or not he's right, or if he's telling the truth... well thats a different matter.

Exactly; that they said it is canon, but not its veracity. Like in an analysis of a source - if the source is accurate, then you've got a very strong piece of evidence as to what (say) Goebbels said, but that doesn't meant it's true.

[Imrix.]

This just getting annoying. All you do is throw the same goddamn argument back in my face every time I post, even when I'm not saying the same thing.

Oh good, I'm not the only one who feels that way.


The Astartes do in fact lead a large number of "charges" against Traitor Legions, because THEY ARE MORTAL ENEMIES.

Sure. So is the rest of the Imperium and Chaos in general. The specific rivalries between Traitor and Loyalist Astartes aren't distinct fueds, but part of the greater whole.


Yes, the FIRST battles appear on Cadia without the SM, but I didn't say that they would be the first to the fight, I said they would "lead the charge" (I.E. they would be among the first to arrive when the Traitors rear their heads, and among the first to get stuck in beside the Cadians)

Well that depends entirely on how close the various chapters lending aid are to the battle. Although you're probably correct, I'd say that has less to do with the enmity between the Space Marines and servants of Chaos, and more to do with the fact that, as a rapid-response special forces faction, the Astartes can move to respond to a call to arms faster than the Imperial Navy.

Basically, although the Astartes feelings towards their traitorous kin do play a part it's more a matter of simple logistics.


And its not like there's going to be one battle involving just SM and CSM and another involving just mutants and heretics and the IG, they would be fighting in the SAME BATTLES most probably, except for some odd battles out.

Actually, that's not quite true. Most of the battles in the campaign would be made up of Guard and traitor/mutant forces, with not a Space Marine in sight. As one side wishes to gain an advantage however, more elite troops are called in such as the Astartes, prompting a similar allocation of forces on the other side, etc etc.

Basically, the majority of battles would be made up of Guard and Traitors, with the Space Marines concentrated around a few of the most hard-fought battlegrounds. So while you are broadly correct in that the Astartes and Guard would be fighting in the same battles, it would be far more than 'some odd battles out' that would not be able to boast an Astartes presence.


And the Iron Warriors taking a big Citadel on some world IS a major battle, if the world is important. Major battles don't have to be massive wars, they just have to be battles that are of great strategic importance.

Fair point, but I would describe that as an important skirmish rather than a major battle or war.


And again, there are tons of books and backstory about the smaller less important battles. Hell, a good half of the books I've read deal with small level threats which, even if the enemy won, would barely effect the IoM.

Then I'd be interested in knowing which books you've read since, while I have read a few novels where the situation was as you described, they were a definite rarity in my view. For the most part, I felt that the authors tried to create a sense of scale, and simply failed.

In any case, my original point wasn't necessarily based on the novels so much as the descriptions of well-known major campaigns.


And Gorb, what makes you think the Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy "don't get involved"? Wouldn't a Black Crusade be the THE TIME when the Gray Knights and the Sisters of Battle SHOULD get involved, and in LARGE NUMBERS?

Although I can't speak for Gorb, I think what he meant was the battles in between the Black Crusades. The forces of Chaos, from my understanding, engage in constant raiding and small assaults out of the Eye, with the Black Crusades being a distinct exception to the norm. During a Black Crusade then yes, the Inquisition, Sororitas and other forces would get involved but for the msot part, the forces of Cadia are more than able to keep the Gate well-defended against the smaller attacks by Chaos.

[Oslecamo]

I just feel like my actual points are being ignored, and that pisses me off.

What you have to understand is that when it comes to WH40K fluff, the only rule is the rule of cool.

So, for example, one author says that there are only around one million space marines total, to show how special they are.

But then other author goes and thinks "Hey, a battle of countless million space marines geting slaughtered in a planet would be really cool", so he ignores the fluff of the other author and proceeds to put millions of space marines fighting in his story.

For a batter example, look at this classic video:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=TaFhlN4OKyQ

It's not hindered by actual game mechanis. It's a 100% fluff video with the purpose of being cool/awesome.

Yet, it contradicts many of the basis of the fluff. A squad of space marines with two heavy vehicles suporting them gets butchered by a group of orks roughly twice their numbers, when suposedly SM would slaughter orks by the dozens.

It could have gone this way(not cool):
Ork weapons fail to overcome predator's armor, SM don't leave their cover and simply spray the orks with their superior ranged weaponry untill the reinforcments (drop pods) arrive. Orks carrying mines are shot down before reaching the SM vehicles and so on.

It's what would make sense, but it would be kinda dull.

But what happens is the cool way:
Predator blows up, marines charge uphill despite knowing reinforcments are in the way, dreadnought gets blown up by a charging ork, explosion kills most of the squad, only surviving SM prefers to position the flag on top of the hill for the glory of his chapter instead of running for cover or actually picking up a weapon and keep fighting the orks, gets shot in the back, starts crawling, puts flag and dies.

It doesn't make any sense, but hey, it's freacking cool, so who really cares?:smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Scaly]

Then 40k isn't your game, Mr. Scaly. There ARE no 'good guys'. One of the main things I like about Warhammer is that everybody, to one degree or another, is irrevocably evil. Take a look at any single race and I guarantee you, it will come up as evil.

The Tyranids want to devour the galaxy. It's easy to sympathise with them for being effectively mindless animals, but any way you slice it wanting to devour the galaxy is wanting to devour the galaxy!

The Necrons want to enslave all life for their godlike masters to devour at their leisure, mixed with a good deal of extermination ofr reasons of ingrained prejudice. I don't think I need to say any more on that count.

Chaos... Where do I even start? Seriously, where do I start listing the atrocities of a faction whose big motto is "LET THE GALAXY BURN!"?

The Tau... See top of the post.

The Eldar are, as you say, manipulative bastards who sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people on an almost daily basis to preserve their own skins.

The Dark Eldar are sadomasochistic, slavetaking soul-devourers. 'Nuff said.

The Orks want to fight and destroy everything for no better reason than finding it fun.

And the Imperium? The Imperium is corrupt, oppressive, totalitarian, fascist, backwards, xenophobic and filled with religious persecution and zealotry. Do I seriously need to argue how evil they are?

All very true. But you see, while I think that good guys should be good guys, I have no objection to villains and monsters tearing each other to pieces. Besides, the fluff of the world is some of the most interesting I've seen in a long time. Take everything you've said about all the races and tell me one thing that isn't heart-stoppingly cool about it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

All very true. But you see, while I think that good guys should be good guys, I have no objection to villains and monsters tearing each other to pieces. Besides, the fluff of the world is some of the most interesting I've seen in a long time. Take everything you've said about all the races and tell me one thing that isn't heart-stoppingly cool about it.

That's the thing. There are no 'good guys'. Nor, in the conventional sense, are there 'villains and monsters'. There's just a ton of shades of grey.

[chiasaur11]

That's the thing. There are no 'good guys'. Nor, in the conventional sense, are there 'villains and monsters'. There's just a ton of shades of grey.

We've got your dark grey, yer very dark grey, yer basically black grey, and your extra black the color of which turns mens minds into mush just by seeing it grey.

Now, if'n you don't want to play as the Tau...

[Elurindel]

Its different. For 40k the novels give the feel of the universe,

Really? Wow, so C.S. Goto's (My apologies for the foul language) books are to be taken as canon? Like Warrior Coven, where some Deathwatch are following an ancient pact that the Ordo Xenos formed with Eldrad Ulthran, to offer the souls of the Deathwatch in order to appease Lelith Hesperax, with whom Eldrad has struck a deal with, in order to stop Hesperax from raiding the Cratfworld of Ulthwé for souls, whilst making it look convincing by offering her the souls of some of the Ulthwé peasantry that were expendable, so that the Wych Queen can summon a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, and plunge the surrounding area of space into a giant warp storm.

I'm so glad I found you to point out that that sort of thing shouldn't be taken at all with a pinch of salt, not as the retarded wet dreams of a fluff-burning dullard that GW should never have hired who seems to have no understanding of the genre at all. Thanks man!

[Illiterate Scribe]

Really? Wow, so C.S. Goto's (My apologies for the foul language) books are to be taken as canon? Like Warrior Coven, where some Deathwatch are following an ancient pact that the Ordo Xenos formed with Eldrad Ulthran, to offer the souls of the Deathwatch in order to appease Lelith Hesperax, with whom Eldrad has struck a deal with, in order to stop Hesperax from raiding the Cratfworld of Ulthwé for souls, whilst making it look convincing by offering her the souls of some of the Ulthwé peasantry that were expendable, so that the Wych Queen can summon a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, and plunge the surrounding area of space into a giant warp storm.

I'm so glad I found you to point out that that sort of thing shouldn't be taken at all with a pinch of salt, not as the retarded wet dreams of a fluff-burning dullard that GW should never have hired who seems to have no understanding of the genre at all. Thanks man!

Also, carnifexes with multilasers.

Although, I've got to admit, you've got to admire an author who can create Vance "Mother*******" Stubbs, the general who lost 100 Baneblades, Lord Firaveus Carron, and, who can forget, the mighty Indrick Boreale.

The voice acting in Soulstorm makes it, though.

[Oslecamo]

Also, carnifexes with multilasers.

Although, I've got to admit, you've got to admire an author who can create Vance "Mother*******" Stubbs, the general who lost 100 Baneblades, Lord Firaveus Carron, and, who can forget, the mighty Indrick Boreale.

The voice acting in Soulstorm makes it, though.

Just out of curiosity, how did he get 100 baneblades in the first place? My impression was that your typical IG general would have only a dozen or so baneblades under his comand, tops.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Really? Wow, so C.S. Goto's (My apologies for the foul language) books are to be taken as canon? Like Warrior Coven, where some Deathwatch are following an ancient pact that the Ordo Xenos formed with Eldrad Ulthran, to offer the souls of the Deathwatch in order to appease Lelith Hesperax, with whom Eldrad has struck a deal with, in order to stop Hesperax from raiding the Cratfworld of Ulthwé for souls, whilst making it look convincing by offering her the souls of some of the Ulthwé peasantry that were expendable, so that the Wych Queen can summon a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, and plunge the surrounding area of space into a giant warp storm.

I'm so glad I found you to point out that that sort of thing shouldn't be taken at all with a pinch of salt, not as the retarded wet dreams of a fluff-burning dullard that GW should never have hired who seems to have no understanding of the genre at all. Thanks man!

{Scrubbed}

[Illiterate Scribe]

Just out of curiosity, how did he get 100 baneblades in the first place? My impression was that your typical IG general would have only a dozen or so baneblades under his comand, tops.

He's Vance Stubbs. He's just that badass, he can requisition one hundred baneblades, and then completely forget about them when you're attacking Kaurava I.

[Oslecamo]

nevermind this.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked. Please don't flame each other. If you can't remain calm and post civilly, please don't post.