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Cowboy_ninja
2008-06-07, 06:23 PM
Ever seen jumpers? could a warlock do that with his demension door-like evocation?

he teleports as high as he can in the air, with the biggest object he can and falls guiding the object to its target. Just before impact he teleports again to safety and the object hits it mark doing the usual damage for a thrown object (is it 1d6 per 20lbs, and another 1d6 for every 10 feet fallen after the first 30ft?)

i think you get what im saying, use teleport to build momentum and so that you get huge amounts of dmg. Like in the movie Jumper.:smalltongue:

EDIT: forget the warlock his dimension door's distance is short. Asume we are using a wizard of the appropriate level with a quickened dimension door.

monty
2008-06-07, 06:28 PM
I don't see why not, except you can only bring objects up to your maximum load and willing creatures, so it wouldn't be very useful. Also, it'd be hard to get off the second teleport right before hitting the ground. D&D mechanics don't support that level of detail very well.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 06:36 PM
I don't see why not, except you can only bring objects up to your maximum load and willing creatures, so it wouldn't be very useful. Also, it'd be hard to get off the second teleport right before hitting the ground. D&D mechanics don't support that level of detail very well.

Do note: With falling damage mechanics as they are, the maximum load for a strength 6 medium character is 60 pounds.... which, over a 680 foot fall (minimum range of Dimension Door, at least for a Wizard casting it), deals the cap of 20d6 damage. At 7th level, for a Wizard.

This probably shouldn't be permitted from a balance perspective. Possibly a partial working - long falls are easy to see coming - a simple reflex save to get out of the way (20, minus 1 per 10 feet of falling distance, perhaps), an attack roll against the full AC of the target, or similar would probably be needful.

Cowboy_ninja
2008-06-07, 06:40 PM
I don't see why not, except you can only bring objects up to your maximum load and willing creatures, so it wouldn't be very useful. Also, it'd be hard to get off the second teleport right before hitting the ground. D&D mechanics don't support that level of detail very well.

i dont see why not. use a quickened flee the scene evocation and tell the DM that "I use it right before i hit the ground."

Cowboy_ninja
2008-06-07, 06:41 PM
Do note: With falling damage mechanics as they are, the maximum load for a strength 6 medium character is 60 pounds.... which, over a 680 foot fall (minimum range of Dimension Door, at least for a Wizard casting it), deals the cap of 20d6 damage. At 7th level, for a Wizard.

This probably shouldn't be permitted from a balance perspective. Possibly a partial working - long falls are easy to see coming - a simple reflex save to get out of the way (20, minus 1 per 10 feet of falling distance, perhaps), an attack roll against the full AC of the target, or similar would probably be needful.

maybe it could be considered a seige attack and use the rules from books like heros of battle.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 06:42 PM
i dont see why not. use a quickened flee the scene evocation and tell the DM that "I use it right before i hit the ground."
The regular Dimension Door does specify that you can't take actions after arrival. Does Flee The Scene inherit that restriction?

Innis Cabal
2008-06-07, 06:44 PM
No it does not. But casting feather fall after you throw the item would work just as well really, you wont get the "jumper(tm)" feel but oh well

Cowboy_ninja
2008-06-07, 06:48 PM
The regular Dimension Door does specify that you can't take actions after arrival. Does Flee The Scene inherit that restriction?

ok ok. lets say we uses the spell teleport or some other " mass displacement" spell and use the demension door as the exit plan for escaping maxed falling dmg.


or do all "mass displacement" spells say you cant do anything after you teleport. I also think i remember a certain feat, or prestige class somewhere that allowed full attack actions( or some kind of action) after a teleport. am i wrong?

EDIT: or we could do what innis cabal said:smallbiggrin:

The_Snark
2008-06-07, 06:49 PM
i dont see why not. use a quickened flee the scene evocation and tell the DM that "I use it right before i hit the ground."

Because of this clause in the Dimension Door spell...


You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

The invocation version doesn't change this, and it has such a short range that you can't get to a point where it would take more than 1 round to fall. (If you did, the person would be able to see you coming and dodge, too.) Of course, if you have the flight invocation, you don't need to bother, because you can just let go and hover.

Most DMs would allow an ad hoc Reflex save to avoid some or all of the damage if you tried to use this in game, I imagine, especially if great heights are involved. Warlocks don't get enough range on the spell to make the damage worthwhile, though, unless they're also really strong.

marjan
2008-06-07, 06:50 PM
Also it should be noted following:


Minimum Forward Speed

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

As you can see it takes 3 rounds for a flying creature to fall from 680ft, so it would be safe to assume that it would take at least 2 rounds for object to reach the ground, without relying to physics.

monty
2008-06-07, 07:32 PM
Flee the Scene has Close range, which wouldn't get you above 60 ft until 14th level, at which point you have better things you can be doing.

Epinephrine
2008-06-07, 08:24 PM
Also it should be noted following:



As you can see it takes 3 rounds for a flying creature to fall from 680ft, so it would be safe to assume that it would take at least 2 rounds for object to reach the ground, without relying to physics.

Well, the Rules of the Game about movement have the following,

"A stalling creature falls, but it wings provide considerable drag and tend to slow the creature's fall. As noted earlier, a creature falls 150 feet during the first round spent stalling, and it falls 300 feet each round thereafter. Wingless flyers that stall still have some residual lift and fall more slowly than non-flyers.

...

A nonflyer (or flyer falling through the air) freefalls rather than stalls. A creature in freefall drops 500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each round thereafter. While in freefall, a creature can attempt a single action each round. It must make a Dexterity or Strength check (creature's choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping any item it tries to use. Spellcasting is possible, but doing so requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) and if the spell has a material component, the creature must first check to see if it drops the component."

Now, that's not SRD, but it's more accurate (and still from wizards.com), and makes some sense.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-07, 09:02 PM
Well, the Rules of the Game about movement have the following,

"A stalling creature falls, but it wings provide considerable drag and tend to slow the creature's fall. As noted earlier, a creature falls 150 feet during the first round spent stalling, and it falls 300 feet each round thereafter. Wingless flyers that stall still have some residual lift and fall more slowly than non-flyers.

...

A nonflyer (or flyer falling through the air) freefalls rather than stalls. A creature in freefall drops 500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each round thereafter. While in freefall, a creature can attempt a single action each round. It must make a Dexterity or Strength check (creature's choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping any item it tries to use. Spellcasting is possible, but doing so requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) and if the spell has a material component, the creature must first check to see if it drops the component."

Now, that's not SRD, but it's more accurate (and still from wizards.com), and makes some sense.

Of course, it's also 3.0, and directly contradicts the DMG which states that the fastest a flying character can ever fall is double it's move speed and this costs a move action. If you could drop 150ft, then flying creatures would, of course, this also tells you nothing about a Wizard who just stops using his fly spell (not dismisses).

Nebo_
2008-06-07, 09:55 PM
No it does not. But casting feather fall after you throw the item would work just as well really, you wont get the "jumper(tm)" feel but oh well

Fail.

Where are you getting that from? There's nothing in the Flee the Scene description that says you can act after using it.

Renegade Paladin
2008-06-07, 10:00 PM
Teleportation doesn't change momentum anyway, so if you teleported while falling, you would still be heading downwards at the same velocity wherever you teleported to, and would splat.

:smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2008-06-07, 10:03 PM
Teleportation doesn't change momentum anyway, so if you teleported while falling, you would still be heading downwards at the same velocity wherever you teleported to, and would splat.

:smalltongue:Makes it rather fatal to teleport long distances on Earth (or any world like Earth), then - curvature issues mean that the ground you're standing on is moving significantly differently from the ground a thousand miles away. To the point of being "splat" territory.

Collin152
2008-06-07, 10:03 PM
Teleportation doesn't change momentum anyway, so if you teleported while falling, you would still be heading downwards at the same velocity wherever you teleported to, and would splat.

:smalltongue:

So teleport to the other side of the Earth.
If you're a wizard.

Nebo_
2008-06-07, 11:30 PM
So teleport to the other side of the Earth.
If you're a wizard.

Are you aware that the other side of earth is moving in the opposite direction to this one?

Collin152
2008-06-07, 11:35 PM
Are you aware that the other side of earth is moving in the opposite direction to this one?

That's why we are in the air.

monty
2008-06-07, 11:36 PM
That's why we are in the air.

So you can run into a random mountain at 2000 miles per hour? Sounds like a good idea.

Collin152
2008-06-07, 11:39 PM
So you can run into a random mountain at 2000 miles per hour? Sounds like a good idea.

Be sure to be far from mountains. Eventually, inertia, wind resistance, feather fall.

Nebo_
2008-06-07, 11:42 PM
This is exactly why physics shouldn't be mixed with D&D.

Bandededed
2008-06-07, 11:52 PM
This gets even more fun if we assume that teleporting resets your velocity appropriately. IE, if you were to teleport into the air, your initial velocity would be zero, and then you would fall your 150 feet. Then, you teleport (twice even!) and again, you are in the first round of falling.

Now, just teleport straight up. :smallbiggrin:

Again and again... :biggrin:

Drop rock.

Congratulations, you've killed the dinosaurs!

Epinephrine
2008-06-08, 07:40 AM
Of course, it's also 3.0, and directly contradicts the DMG which states that the fastest a flying character can ever fall is double it's move speed and this costs a move action.

Show me where that's stated. There's a difference between being able to move, in control, and falling. You are looking at table 2-1 on maneuverability?

Kurald Galain
2008-06-08, 07:46 AM
An easier way is this:

(1) have Fell Flight active
(2) walk up to a huge boulder that you can carry
(3) Flee The Scene (Dimdoor) above an enemy's head
(4) release the boulder while still flying
(5) ???
(6) Profit

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-08, 10:24 AM
He teleports as high as he can in the air, with the biggest object he can and falls guiding the object to its target. Just before impact he teleports again to safety and the object hits it mark doing the usual damage for a thrown object (is it 1d6 per 20lbs, and another 1d6 for every 10 feet fallen after the first 30ft?)

How is that going to work?

Sounds like a DC 5 to 10 Reflex check to avoid damage entirely to me, and a much harder check for the caster to actually bug out in time, rather than hit the ground with the object.


Incidentally, you can't use teleportation effects to teleport into the air; you need to teleport onto solid ground. Whether you can fly is irrelevant.


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Covers all Conjuration, including teleportation.

marjan
2008-06-08, 10:39 AM
Incidentally, you can't use teleportation effects to teleport into the air; you need to teleport onto solid ground. Whether you can fly is irrelevant.


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Covers all Conjuration, including teleportation.

DD doesn't bring anything into being, nor does it bring anything to your current location.

Stycotl
2008-06-08, 11:30 AM
it's still a teleportation effect, so it doesn't really matter.

however, if you could find a way to get around that, then make your warlock/wizard/whatever you end up using capable of taking levels in the kriinti shadow marauder (can't remember the real name) prc, or something with a similar mechanic; then you can take actions after teleporting.

Innis Cabal
2008-06-08, 11:37 AM
Fail.

Where are you getting that from? There's nothing in the Flee the Scene description that says you can act after using it.

Um....how many rounds does it take to fall? I was agreeing that flee the scene dosnt let you act after using it. So....you...fail? Is that the hip new lingo? The round after using it use feather fall, if your planning to do this often you should have a ring of it so you dont die. Think before you talk or else you just eat foot

marjan
2008-06-08, 11:48 AM
it's still a teleportation effect, so it doesn't really matter.


Teleportation effect that doesn't satisfy criteria of the rules, so it is logical that those rules don't apply to it.

monty
2008-06-08, 03:38 PM
Um....how many rounds does it take to fall? I was agreeing that flee the scene dosnt let you act after using it. So....you...fail? Is that the hip new lingo? The round after using it use feather fall, if your planning to do this often you should have a ring of it so you dont die. Think before you talk or else you just eat foot

What? What good would casting Feather Fall the round after using it do? Flee the Scene has Close range (25 + 5 per 2 caster levels). If you have a long enough range to not hit the ground in one round, you can be doing better things with your time than dropping rocks. Like, y'know, using epic invocations (at-will Shades ftw).

Innis Cabal
2008-06-08, 03:42 PM
The question isnt what he can be doing better with his time, its how can he duplicate slamming rocks and things into people or objects. If you teleport into the air, feather fall will allow you to fall and then do other things in your time falling, like those epic invocations.

Irreverent Fool
2008-06-09, 06:38 AM
DD doesn't bring anything into being, nor does it bring anything to your current location.

So if you're not ending up where you are, where are you going?

marjan
2008-06-09, 08:21 AM
So if you're not ending up where you are, where are you going?

It doesn't bring you to yourself, it brings you to completely new location (and you weren't there before you arrived). I don't think that even RAI you cannot teleport in the air. In order for spell to bring you to your location you must arrive at the location you were when you started casting spell, which won't happen unless you are really bored.