PDA

View Full Version : [4E] Rituals



Enlong
2008-06-07, 11:15 PM
So. I just bought the 4E Core books, and have gotten to the chapter on Rituals.
I wanna know what you guys think of them.

Personally, I love Rituals. They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful. I can actually see myself using Tenser's Floating Disk now, because I know it won't impede my ability to use casting ability for battle purposes. Oh, and I love Linked Portal. I can just imagine a party setting up a small fort as their base of operations, and making a teleportation circle to get back there whenever they needed to return. Or having a team of mages use Magic Circle to ward a city in preparation for an attack by an army (a high check would defend against all but the strongest monsters)

Basically, the reason I like Rituals is because they give us a use for the spells that nobody prepared on a daily basis, and presents them to us in a way that allows us to have them ready without wasting magic that could otherwise be used for battle purposes. Like... you never used to prepare Tenser's Floating Disk, because you knew that if you were staring down a troll or something, and all you have left is the "I'm too frail to carry my share of the treasure" spell, then you were screwed. But now you can save your actual spells for battle, and whip out a ritual to carry all that loot for you. It just fills me with glee because to me... it just works now.

Also, I have one small question. Can you ride your own Tenser's Floating Disk now? I don't seem to see anything that says you can't. And that would be awesome if you could.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-08, 06:10 AM
Secret Chest is fun.

The problem with the spells that reference permanent teleportation circles is that the rules give no way to create them that I could find.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-08, 06:29 AM
Personally, I love Rituals. They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful. I can actually see myself using Tenser's Floating Disk now, because I know it won't impede my ability to use casting ability for battle purposes. Oh, and I love Linked Portal. I can just imagine a party setting up a small fort as their base of operations, and making a teleportation circle to get back there whenever they needed to return. Or having a team of mages use Magic Circle to ward a city in preparation for an attack by an army (a high check would defend against all but the strongest monsters)




They take all the utility spells from 3.5, add some new ones, and put them in a format that makes them useful.


all the utility spells from 3.5

:smallconfused:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-08, 07:10 AM
Personally, I object to the line about usable fashion? Seriously, give up precious gold forever to get a floating disk one time? Crap on a stick.

Saph
2008-06-08, 08:06 AM
Compared to 3.5's utility spells, 4e's rituals are unimpressive. Trust me, anything you've described can be done better and more entertainingly by a 3.5 caster.

Comparing them to nothing, and just looking at them on their own merits . . . eh. I've read the chapter several times, but can't get very interested in them, for two reasons:

• Casting time. Having to take 10 minutes to get the spell off makes them near worthless in a dangerous situation. But then they generally only last one hour, so the situation has to be safe enough that you can sit and cast for ten minutes, but immediate enough that you can get use out of it in one hour. This would be REALLY irritating to get to work in an actual game.
• Cost. 30 gp for a Silence ritual at level 1 doesn't sound like much . . . until you realise that 50 gp is the price for a suit of plate armour. In fact, 30 gp is more than you're going to get for most quests. This discourages you from using rituals except when you really need them.

So eh. They're better than nothing I guess, but if I want to play character who focuses on utility and out-of-combat magic, 3.5 is far better.

- Saph

SamTheCleric
2008-06-08, 08:09 AM
I enjoy the ritual system... and love that a skill check determines the "strength" of most rituals.

FoE
2008-06-08, 08:14 AM
I think the point of rituals was to weaken the wizards and clerics in order to bring them on to a level playing field with the martial fighting classes, as well as to make those 'fighting classes' a little more viable on their own by allowing them to cast some of those non-combat spells so you don't HAVE to have a wizard and cleric in every party if you really don't want to.

Also, ritual scrolls and particularly rare casting components make for good treasure. In that light, they're very successful.

@v: Slightly edited to make more sense now. :smalltongue:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-08, 08:51 AM
I think the point of rituals was to weaken the wizards and clerics to bring them on to a level playing field with the martial fighting classes, as well as to make those 'fighting classes' a little more viable on their own, so you don't HAVE to have a wizard and cleric in every party. Also, ritual scrolls and particularly rare casting components make for good treasure. In that light, they're very successful.

Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-08, 08:53 AM
Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

I'm taking that ritual.

Jarlax
2008-06-08, 09:19 AM
Compared to 3.5's utility spells, 4e's rituals are unimpressive. Trust me, anything you've described can be done better and more entertainingly by a 3.5 caster.


you are absolutely correct. all the spells in the rituals list can indeed be performed by a 3.5 caster better and faster and cheaper. and in most cases this is to the detriment of the game.

spells like scrying and locate object or portals or decern lies are all game breakers for the DM. quickly unraveling a plot or adventure. now instead of a long list of counterspells or countermanuvers the DM needs to worry about to combat these potential hazards against his BBEGs the DM should actually reward the players for using these spells.

in 4e if you use a scrying spell it represents a significant expense on your parties part and should be rewarded with meaningful information they may not have otherwise come across. they will be lucky to perform it once every adventure as most, so it should be an important event. as opposed to 3.5 where scrying is received early and can be used quickly and cheaply.


• Casting time. Having to take 10 minutes to get the spell off makes them near worthless in a dangerous situation. But then they generally only last one hour, so the situation has to be safe enough that you can sit and cast for ten minutes, but immediate enough that you can get use out of it in one hour. This would be REALLY irritating to get to work in an actual game.


most of these spells are not intended for dangerous situations anyway, most are adventure setups or concluders. like scrying, brew potion and enchant magic item or raise dead, cure disease and disenchant magic item.

the few that are for inside the dungeons are spells like knock, detect doors, tesners floating disk or travelers feast. are all spells that replace a mundane power with a magic alternative, the game is simply protecting those who have high thievery, high perception, high strength or selected languages by ensuring their magical replacements are less efficient but still available. you will always prefer the rouge to a knock spell, but in a pinch you can take 10 minutes and get the wizard to open it.


This discourages you from using rituals except when you really need them.

BAM! nail-on-the-head, rituals are not mere utilities for your players to use as they like, when they like. they represent a serious investment of time and money in order to be performed and are intended to be used only when you really need them.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-08, 09:25 AM
And meanwhile, we hit things for 2d6+Int damage! Hooray!

Saph
2008-06-08, 09:32 AM
spells like scrying and locate object or portals or decern lies are all game breakers for the DM. quickly unraveling a plot or adventure.

Really, they're not. I could go down the list of each of those spells and explain the limitations (have you ever actually had a session ruined by one of these?) but I'll avoid thread derailment.


BAM! nail-on-the-head, rituals are not mere utilities for your players to use as they like, when they like. they represent a serious investment of time and money in order to be performed and are intended to be used only when you really need them.

Unfortunately, for me, the whole fun of playing a fantasy game is to be able to do impossible stuff when I feel like it, rather than when I really need it. Paying for a teleport that only works between two specific locations feels rather like paying for an airline ticket.

- Saph

Jarlax
2008-06-08, 10:27 AM
Really, they're not. I could go down the list of each of those spells and explain the limitations (have you ever actually had a session ruined by one of these?) but I'll avoid thread derailment.

wizard scryed my BBEG litch, flawlessly teleported the entire party into his room and proceeded to derail the adventure by holding him hostage having another party member command undead. this is not the only example just the quickest to explain.


Unfortunately, for me, the whole fun of playing a fantasy game is to be able to do impossible stuff when I feel like it, rather than when I really need it. Paying for a teleport that only works between two specific locations feels rather like paying for an airline ticket.

- Saph

thats fine you can do impossible stuff all the time, launch fire from your hands, take to the sky without wings, or make your self invisible to sight on a daily basis. these are all utility spells for a wizard in 4e. but the BIG stuff, the stuff that can radically change an adventure, like the ability to spy on any creature even if you have never seen or met them before, the ability to ask mystic power any question and be given a truthful and accurate response or the ability to teleport to a destination with a description as simple as "lord Bloodrinkers personal chambers" having never been there before.

these sorts of spells have been put aside to protect both the DM and the other players alike. spells like knock and detect secret doors takes away from the rouges traditional role(in 3.5 there comes a point where the rouge is better off spending his ranks in open lock on UMD and just buying a knock wand since open lock is a full round action and using a wand is a standard). comprehend languages makes learning anything other than common a farce, what point is there if the wizard can just pop CL when he likes. one of our players read the new scrying and teleport rituals out loud to a short cheer as they named the players most prone to abusing the hell out of those spells.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-08, 10:37 AM
wizard scryed my BBEG litch, flawlessly teleported the entire party into his room and proceeded to derail the adventure by holding him hostage having another party member command undead. this is not the only example just the quickest to explain.
Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

LoneGamer
2008-06-08, 10:55 AM
How did the Lich fail a saving throw against a level 2 spell requiring a Will save? Natural 1? Also, from SRD, you can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Command and Dominate spells are not guaranteed do-as-I-say buttons.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-06-08, 11:02 AM
Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.
A cursory glance over the 4e rules actually seems to suggest that you would two feats if rituals isn't something your class usually does. Fighters don't get Religion, Heal or Arcana as trained skills; if memory serves.

So you'd need the feat that lets you train in the skill and the Ritual Caster feat to boot.

So you're burning two feats to use a limited selection of rituals which have no immediate use in combat.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-06-08, 11:08 AM
Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.
A cursory glance over the 4e rules actually seems to suggest that you would two feats if rituals isn't something your class usually does. Fighters don't get Religion, Heal or Arcana as trained skills; if memory serves.

So you'd need the feat that lets you train in the skill and the Ritual Caster feat to boot.

So you're burning two feats to use a limited selection of rituals which have no immediate use in combat.

Izodor
2008-06-08, 11:08 AM
I still need to buy 4e, will propably do so within a few weeks, but could one of you answer this question?

Do you need to buy a ritual over and over again, just like 3.5 scrolls, when you want to cast them more than once?

LurkerInPlayground
2008-06-08, 11:14 AM
I still need to buy 4e, will propably do so within a few weeks, but could one of you answer this question?

Do you need to buy a ritual over and over again, just like 3.5 scrolls, when you want to cast them more than once?
I've browsed the book in a store if that's enough qualification.

You still have to "master" them by studying them for 8 hours. Afterwards, you can use them as frequently as time and component cost will permit. You also still need your reference to the ritual from a ritual book or spellbook.

Typically you'll find rituals as treasure or buy them. Although the book makes it painstakingly clear that the market for these things tends to be limited.

Unless I'm mistaken, there are ritual scrolls, which are essentially prepaid one-shot rituals which you can use without having "mastered" the ritual. Much like the scrolls from the 3rd editions.

HidaTsuzua
2008-06-08, 11:19 AM
Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

Because the GM forgot that spell. Or he's a cleric. Basically the problem with scry, detect X, speak with dead and the rest isn't that they can't be countered. The problem is that if they're not, it's over.

All murderers have to be unknown to their murderees, all bodies have to be disposed of on death (since kill him for the password is a valid tactic), if you're worth caring about you have to have mindblank up, everything is lined with lead, and lying . If you slip up once and the PCs catch it, everything goes to heck.

And if you do, things get predictable (of course the dead man never saw his assailant and everyone pays out for mindblank). I've done games like that. My shadowrun games are usually extremely planning heavy and planning takes longer than the actual run.

Let's say you're a new GM. There's little chance you know all of these effects and all it takes is one player (either because he's not new or discovery) to say "GOTCHA!" and the plot is ruined. A newbie GM shouldn't have to know that dead men can tell tales to avoid his plot messed up or solved trivially. At the very best, it makes for a horrible first impression.

Take a look at the OOTS comic. If that one city didn't have "magical evidence doesn't count" law, that whole plot with Elan and Nale switching placed would have been over in 5 minutes. And that law is bull****, but had to be there.

That said, 4E rituals don't solve this problem. Those problem spells are still there. They just cost more and are even worse. Consult Oracle will tell you something know to at least one creature, observe McEvil the Lich's phylactery or the "Pants that the BBEG is wearing" or whatever, and speak with dead can now be spammed. You can protect yourself with anti-scry wards, but they get a refund on their scry attempts. And doesn't help with the Consult X line.

Scry and Die is still around it's just now pricey to do and combat and higher level. That's an improvement, but nowhere close it could be. Consult and Die might work though.

Really, the 4E recommendation of "if a ritual is going to blow your plot, BS it for the sake of the plot" isn't that bad of a way to fix the mess. And that's terrible.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-08, 11:39 AM
Because the GM forgot that spell. Or he's a cleric. Basically the problem with scry, detect X, speak with dead and the rest isn't that they can't be countered. The problem is that if they're not, it's over.
Why is that a problem? Most every RPG and even real life is like that. Hell, in real life its even worse.


All murderers have to be unknown to their murderees, all bodies have to be disposed of on death (since kill him for the password is a valid tactic), if you're worth caring about you have to have mindblank up, everything is lined with lead, and lying. If you slip up once and the PCs catch it, everything goes to heck.
Yeah, similar precautions have to be taken in Shadowrun and in real life. Again, so what?


And if you do, things get predictable (of course the dead man never saw his assailant and everyone pays out for mindblank). I've done games like that. My shadowrun games are usually extremely planning heavy and planning takes longer than the actual run.

Let's say you're a new GM. There's little chance you know all of these effects and all it takes is one player (either because he's not new or discovery) to say "GOTCHA!" and the plot is ruined. A newbie GM shouldn't have to know that dead men can tell tales to avoid his plot messed up or solved trivially. At the very best, it makes for a horrible first impression.
Meh. Before you ever DM you should look through the rules. If you do so then you will notice those spells. If you don't realize what Speak With Dead does and the players use it to find out the murdered then its your fault and you should learn your lesson.


Take a look at the OOTS comic. If that one city didn't have "magical evidence doesn't count" law, that whole plot with Elan and Nale switching placed would have been over in 5 minutes. And that law is bull****, but had to be there.
Actually its not BS. It's too easy for the person using magic to collect evidence to lie or be influenced.

Jarlax
2008-06-08, 11:44 AM
Why didn't your BBEG lich have Mindblank up? Or his lair inside a permanent Private Sanctum?

the litch did not have 8th level spells at his disposal, due to his +CR impacting his number of wizard levels. and i thought him safe with only his name available as information and the location of his base secret. one bad will save later an i was proven wrong.

but its a pain, trying to outsmart my players actions before they do them. and make an active effort to protect major elements of my games from player incursion via spells that actively allow them to get knowledge from nothing. are they going to cast scry/CoP/Teleport on my BBEG? or his servant?, the servants wife to get at the servant? etc. what counterspells(mindblank, sacntuary, etc) do i need up? on who? how do i justify those spells in a setting or thematic adventure where wizards and casters are not going to appear? i DM mostly so at some point i have to accept my players who run a wizard every week are much better at their class than i am and anything short of a halasters teleport/scrying cage faces potential failure.

you might remember the wizard vs wizard challenge on the forums we had a while back where we tried to see if one wizard could track down another if one was actively seeking and the other was actively hiding and how i went for (too)many pages of discussion about what spells(drawn from any 3.5 book) countered what and what loopholes may be exploited, etc.

to clarify what im saying, its not that i dislike the spells like scry/teleport/CoP/wish, i just dislike their endless potential having endless usage in 3.5. and i feel their significant component cost in 4e balances this. wish of course has an XP cost in 3.5 but xp costs have been scrapped for obvious reasons. but in 4e if my party wants to burn their treasure on finding the BBEG then they can go for it, they will quickly conclude that spending 530,000g it costs to perform a Observe+TruePortal combo is far less than what they will get from the adventure treasure.

but in a pinch, with no other clues or leads to guide them to a boss or location or if they are facing something with a high chance of a TPK they might be willing to part with the gold required to use those spells, because the really need to. and i am fine with that

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-08, 11:57 AM
the litch did not have 8th level spells at his disposal, due to his +CR impacting his number of wizard levels. and i thought him safe with only his name available as information and the location of his base secret. one bad will save later an i was proven wrong.
Private Sanctum, its easy to get it permanent and for free. And there is an item of continuous Mind Blank in the SRD.

Hell, make up a god of adventuring who actively interferes with scrying and other spells because he doesn't think they are appropriate (it's something that I have done before). Or perhaps an epic mage got tired of all the scrying and made an epic spell that blocks scrying.

HidaTsuzua
2008-06-08, 12:23 PM
Yes Tippy, it's true real life is bad. But you know what? You don't go on adventures D&D style in real life, the BBEGs are completely different in style and substance, and PR matters. Crimes are often easily solved or impossible (both not good for RPGs).

You can plan a lot like I do with Shadowrun. It however leads to a certain style of play and easily leads to "the only winning move is not to shadowrun but go steal cars for a living." But really that game becomes "can the players outsmart the GM." I shouldn't need to be able to outsmart four of my friends every week for a decent game.

As for the magic evidence not working is BS, I bring up the point. The cops can lie and be influenced. The judge could lie and be influence. Physical evidence can be manipulated or even affected by magic! Magic evidence is as hard or harder to manipulate or influence. Magical evidence is verifiable. Bob the 3rd level cleric of Pelor should be an expert witness at the very least.

I'll grant that "okay detect lies and let's go home" isn't great justice (at least not in a constitutional law sort of way), but it and other spells are highly useful tools. If you throw them out, you'll have to throw out nearly everything else too for the same reasons.

And you yourself offered the suggestion of "that doesn't work for some reason." It's honestly a good solution for the problem, but still sucks. It's amputating the limb to prevent the infection.

Enlong
2008-06-08, 12:34 PM
:smallconfused:

Sorry. It was past midnight when I wrote that. Please pardon my hyperbole.

My hyperbole.

Hyperbole.

:smallyuk:

But seriously, I shouldn't have written it like that. I do not think they have all the important utilitarian spells, nor do I think the implementation is always perfect (10-minute casting time for Arcane Lock, for example). But in general, I think that the implementation of Rituals is good, and I like the way it feels now.

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 01:00 PM
And meanwhile, we hit things for 2d6+Int damage! Hooray!

What the heck does that even mean? Was that supposed to be a point?

Morty
2008-06-08, 01:07 PM
What the heck does that even mean? Was that supposed to be a point?

I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

Saph
2008-06-08, 01:11 PM
thats fine you can do impossible stuff all the time, launch fire from your hands, take to the sky without wings, or make your self invisible to sight on a daily basis. these are all utility spells for a wizard in 4e. but the BIG stuff, the stuff that can radically change an adventure, like the ability to spy on any creature even if you have never seen or met them before, the ability to ask mystic power any question and be given a truthful and accurate response or the ability to teleport to a destination with a description as simple as "lord Bloodrinkers personal chambers" having never been there before.

these sorts of spells have been put aside to protect both the DM and the other players alike.

I'm afraid this is exactly what I like least about 4e: the "You can't be trusted with anything really powerful" attitude. It was a common response I was getting in the Balance/Versatility thread. The whole reason I play tabletop RPGs is to get away from the incredibly limited list of allowed actions that you get in board and computer games.

Do remember that there are plenty of people out there who have been managing to play 3.5 without every game being instantly ruined by the players having access to powerful spells. I don't mind that some players want spells to be more limited, but I do mind that there's no room for the players that don't.

- Saph

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 01:21 PM
I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

So what? If you take every combat spell from 3.5 and put it on a big list you can point at that list and be like WHAA wizards are only blasters. Doesn't mean you aren't looking at the picture with big 'ol blinders on.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-08, 01:34 PM
I belive the point was, when they aren't using rituals, 4ed wizards mostly blast stuff for 2d6+Int damage & some condition.

No, it's worse - most of the time, all characters spend their time blasting stuff for 2d6+attribute + some condition.


So what? If you take every combat spell from 3.5 and put it on a big list you can point at that list and be like WHAA wizards are only blasters. Doesn't mean you aren't looking at the picture with big 'ol blinders on.

OK. Point me out the fascinating, open ended abilities from the wizard list. 'K?

Nikolai_II
2008-06-08, 01:51 PM
I don't mind that some players want spells to be more limited, but I do mind that there's no room for the players that don't.

- Saph

Hmm?

I thought there was plenty of room for you - and lots of money to save while using it :smallwink:

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 01:52 PM
No, it's worse - most of the time, all characters spend their time blasting stuff for 2d6+attribute + some condition.

Thats the -point- of the powers list. Theres no real difference between the purely combat related spells in 3.5 and the powers list in 4 with the delicious exception of all classes having access to them.



OK. Point me out the fascinating, open ended abilities from the wizard list. 'K?

From the powers list? No, I won't because they're mostly combat related. From the rituals list? Theres a ton of fun stuff there, and there will be more, much more, when we get a rituals book.

Darkantra
2008-06-08, 01:56 PM
The whole ritual system does seem to be expressly designed to narrow 3.5's huge caster vs. practically every other class gap. It would have been nice to have a rule in the book on rushing a ritual, something along the lines of taking a -5 to -10 check on the skill roll, in order to cut the time down.

Given the nature of rituals it makes sense to have an indesigned way of speeding them up but at a cost. There would have to be individual circumstances for the rituals with no check but with the scaling involved with most check based ones I think that it would work. Time to start designing :smallbiggrin:.

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 02:03 PM
The whole ritual system does seem to be expressly designed to narrow 3.5's huge caster vs. practically every other class gap. It would have been nice to have a rule in the book on rushing a ritual, something along the lines of taking a -5 to -10 check on the skill roll, in order to cut the time down.

Given the nature of rituals it makes sense to have an indesigned way of speeding them up but at a cost. There would have to be individual circumstances for the rituals with no check but with the scaling involved with most check based ones I think that it would work. Time to start designing :smallbiggrin:.

Exactly, and from a storytelling perspective I much, MUCH prefer the idea of having my players chase down some raptor testicles and grey ooze mucous to be able to perform a difficult ritual to have a big effect. It's so much more cinematic than everyone looking at the Wizard, he casts locate item, or teleport, or whatever, and then the story trundles along with the wave of a single character's hand.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-08, 02:09 PM
Exactly, and from a storytelling perspective I much, MUCH prefer the idea of having my players chase down some raptor testicles and grey ooze mucous to be able to perform a difficult ritual to have a big effect. It's so much more cinematic than everyone looking at the Wizard, he casts locate item, or teleport, or whatever, and then the story trundles along with the wave of a single character's hand.

I assume you're the DM? Why don't you just make up a couple of things that are required in the ritual (since none of them say), and then hide them in a few dungeons or only attainable through the jackass barkeep in Town A? Maybe the ritual requires the use of bat guano but the towns they go too seem to be conveniently all out or something along those lines.

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 02:22 PM
I assume you're the DM? Why don't you just make up a couple of things that are required in the ritual (since none of them say), and then hide them in a few dungeons or only attainable through the jackass barkeep in Town A? Maybe the ritual requires the use of bat guano but the towns they go too seem to be conveniently all out or something along those lines.

Because theres a feat to make it go away. And from the paradigm of 3.5 casting spells is supposed to be easy and to make all your problems go away with the wave of a hand, making bat guano out of reach one day and not the next strikes me (and would do so for my players) as forced.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-08, 02:28 PM
Not saying it's bat quano, make it some rare gem that can only be found in drow cities or something. Sure you can be completely consistent but at the end of the day the DM is always in charge and can override almost anything the books say.

And what feat are you talking about?

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 02:35 PM
Not saying it's bat quano, make it some rare gem that can only be found in drow cities or something. Sure you can be completely consistent but at the end of the day the DM is always in charge and can override almost anything the books say.

And what feat are you talking about?

Eschew Material Component.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-08, 02:39 PM
Oh, we're on 3.5... right?

No one in our group ever actually took Eschew considering that as long as you had a component pouch you were always "considered" to have it filled with whatever you needed.

You could just say that due to some shortage (drought, fire, insert random destruction element) the price of a certain component went up and now it costs two gold. Eschew goes limp at that point.

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 02:46 PM
Heh, sorry bout that. I prefer the 4.0 way of doing things, I was just following Illiterate Scribe to this thread to get to the bottom of the ritual thing.

Xaros
2008-06-08, 02:47 PM
You could just say that due to some shortage (drought, fire, insert random destruction element) the price of a certain component went up and now it costs two gold. Eschew goes limp at that point.

The problem is, that comes across as a bit forced too (to me). The issue does seem to be one of personal taste - either one enjoyed superpowered casting or one did not. The former probably prefer the versatility of 3.5 and the latter the balance of 4th.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-08, 03:01 PM
Tom it's always gonna feel forced, but if you didn't force certain things it would stop being your story and the player's wouldn't have anything completely interesting to do that wasn't solved by the wizard waving his hand.

TomTheRat
2008-06-08, 03:20 PM
I digaree. 3.5 magic is supposed to be easy to cast, and any time you make it not so players will feel free because it would be an exception to an established paradigm.

In 4, its set up to be difficult to toss rituals around all day.

mabriss lethe
2008-06-08, 03:57 PM
Rituals are a neat addition. I've always tried to implement the ritual rules in 3.5 from Unearthed arcana. i like them. 4e rituals are an extension of that philosophy that's been fully integrated into the game system from the start. It solves some problems, it creates some problems. c'est la vie. Besides, I love the challenge presented by limited access to "Big" magic. One of the reasons I always liked playing the bard.

Tangent: I stumbled onto something when I took my first look at 4e. If you just cover up the D&D logo on the front and read it as if it's a totally fresh system, It reads remarkably well. Try to read it through without any preconcieved notions. Don't instantly compare it to anything else as you read. Just sit down, soak it in, and give it a whirl on its own merits. Then compare it if you feel the need.

Jarlax
2008-06-08, 07:51 PM
I'm afraid this is exactly what I like least about 4e: the "You can't be trusted with anything really powerful" attitude.
- Saph

if this was the case they would have deleted the whole rituals chapter before print. instead they have taken the stance that something really powerful like scry/teleport/CoP should be less accessible than just X Times/Day as spell slots.

3.5 players take the ability to cast these spells whenever they like with a small up front component cost for granted, which lead to abuse by many players. 4e has not taken the spells away from you, just shifted the decision from "do i really want to take up 1 of my high spell slots" to "do i want to spend a significant of party resources on this boss".

making the decision harder is different to taking the powers away from you. and if in play i find the rituals too expencive it is not difficult to reduce their cost until i strike a balance between impossible and overuse.


The issue does seem to be one of personal taste - either one enjoyed superpowered casting or one did not. The former probably prefer the versatility of 3.5 and the latter the balance of 4th.

i agree. i enjoy ritual casting because its not taking batman's belt away, just giving him a gadget budget(although sadly a lot of batman is gone in 4e wizards). i mentioned this in another thread but i intend to jump between 3.5 and 4e indefinitely.

4e will probably replace campaigns where i use a restricted list of books at low levels for dungeon crawls, the kind of environment where i didn't want spells like scry/wish/teleport ruining the fun. and 3.5 will be where i run my mid to high level games without books restrictions because i doubt 4e will ever reach the point 3.5 has of neigh endless combinations and choices, where you can pretty much do anything. and i know my players enjoy having that endless opportunity occasionally.

rituals are restricted based on the same principle that i switch between very high and very low level campaigns. the concept that "scry/teleport/CoD is a sometimes food" =p

Kompera
2008-06-09, 02:45 AM
Tom it's always gonna feel forced, but if you didn't force certain things it would stop being your story and the player's wouldn't have anything completely interesting to do that wasn't solved by the wizard waving his hand.
A brilliant testimonial for why in 4e it was necessary to savagely curtail the abilities of casters. The designers had learned their lesson from the failures of 3.x. If you have to "force things" to make the game run, it's not a well made game.

In 3.x it was necessary to (using only examples found in this thread):
- Invent a God who arbitrarily interferes with certain spells, which screws players who choose to scribe those spells or select them as one of their 5 spells of each level they can know;
- Arbitrarily increase the coasts of some components, and screw players who invested a Feat expecting it to work as per RAW;
- Arbitrarily decide that certain spell components are only available in certain areas, or are arbitrarily 'out of stock' when the players go looking to buy them.
- Arbitrarily decide that local laws prohibit spells from working/their results being believed/counting;
- Have every monster challenge of note live within a Private Sanctum, with a Mindblank permanently up, and add other permanent defenses as any other way of circumventing the adventure plot is attempted by the players.

Lots of arbitrary going on there, and all of it bogus to any player who would like to play the game by the rules as written. And lots of dangerous precedent, too. If the GM takes the above steps, why would he not also arbitrarily ban other spells? Arrange for the Wizard to fail to get any rest? Have Thieves arbitrarily steal his spell component pouch, since the Wizard asked to reallocate the now-useless Eschew Material Component Feat? If the only way to make the game run well is to arbitrarily screw the player playing the Wizard, it's not a well designed game.

And if the above steps were not taken, then to quote Tippy "its(sic) your fault and you should learn your lesson."

The problem with that attitude is that the GM does not play alone. The game is not supposed to be adversarial, so if the GM's plot is ruined it's not just the GM who doesn't get to enjoy seeing his plot unfold, all of the players also do not get to enjoy seeing the GM's plot unfold. The GM loses a few hours of time spent developing the plot, and then all of the players lose the enjoyment of experiencing it. The players are instead left with a hollow victory, undeserved and unrewarding.

For those who feel that 4e ruined the power of spell casters for you, you can always play 3.x. Your books won't burst into flame just because 4e is published.

Me, I like the Ritual system of 4e. I'm liking the impression (perhaps the illusion) that spell casters are the equal of their non-caster equals at the gaming table. The fact that the Wizard won't be able to pull out a spell to match every situation will exercise the problem solving skills of all of the players, including those who like to play Wizards and who might be a bit rusty at problem solving since they have had the crutch of several hundred game breaking spells at their disposal. Much to the contrary of those who insist that 4e is more combat focused, 4e has the potential to see a lot more thinking about how to overcome game challenges, rather than the party turning to the Wizard and asking "You've got a spell for this, right?"

Saph
2008-06-09, 08:32 AM
if this was the case they would have deleted the whole rituals chapter before print. instead they have taken the stance that something really powerful like scry/teleport/CoP should be less accessible than just X Times/Day as spell slots.

3.5 players take the ability to cast these spells whenever they like with a small up front component cost for granted, which lead to abuse by many players. 4e has not taken the spells away from you, just shifted the decision from "do i really want to take up 1 of my high spell slots" to "do i want to spend a significant of party resources on this boss".

But going back to the example you used - your players used a set of spells to kill the BBEG lich before you'd expected them to be able to. You call this 'abuse', but these are exactly the kind of options I like to have in a game - the idea that it's possible to use the abilities cleverly to get around problems. I know this isn't what you're intending to say, but it comes out as a bit like "4e rituals are great because with their utility spells nerfed players have less ability to stop the DM railroading them."

That's one issue. The other issue is that I just find the 4e rituals a bit boring, more like work than fun - something you do because you have to. I'd rather have access to the 3.5 Alter Self spell than to every ritual in the 4e Player's Handbook.

- Saph

Sebastian
2008-06-09, 08:44 AM
They are nice, but still too bland, (check Incantations for a more flavourful system)

Use gold to balance everything is not a good idea IMHO.

They are too much "child-proofed", with all that rituals that say if you use a ritual when is not needed/can't be used it warn you so you don't waste your gold. like all those flying spells with built-in parachute, ugh. :smallsigh:

Incidentally this make the ritual to cure permanent status a perfect charm detector, if you suspect someone (pc or npc is charmed just try the ritual on everyone, if the subject is not charmed you'll know immediately.

Beside that I think they are the only barely interesting thing in 4e.

Sebastian
2008-06-09, 09:02 AM
Um? Rituals could have a free action casting time and create gold for you and Wizards would still be on the same level as Fighters, because everyone can do rituals with a simple feat expenditure.

three reason why fighter are not at the same level of wizards when it come to rituals

a) a fighter need two feat to cast rituals skill training arcana or religion and ritual casting

b) most of the skills for rituals are int or wis based, which a fighter have generally little reason to increase

c) wizards get 12-15 rituals for free when they level, a fighter need to pay for them, plus the book, and some are quite expensive (why wizards always get stuff for free anyway? in 3e, 2 spell for level, in 4e rituals, no surprise they are always broken)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-09, 09:29 AM
c) wizards get 12-15 rituals for free when they level, a fighter need to pay for them, plus the book, and some are quite expensive (why wizards always get stuff for free anyway? in 3e, 2 spell for level, in 4e rituals, no surprise they are always broken)

Take away the free spells on level up from 3.5 Wizards, still broken.

Give the Wizard every single 4E ritual for free, still not broken.

You have got to be kidding me if you think 1) 4E rituals even matter 2) Wizard's are broken in 4E.

ashmanonar
2008-06-09, 09:46 AM
Take away the free spells on level up from 3.5 Wizards, still broken.

Give the Wizard every single 4E ritual for free, still not broken.

You have got to be kidding me if you think 1) 4E rituals even matter 2) Wizard's are broken in 4E.

Seriously. I was having trouble even hitting anything with the quick wizard I threw together. ('Course, I was rolling habitually low. And trying to play both a PC wizard and the goblin monster squad.)

(Oh, quick question: A power, say Thunderwave, says roll Int vs Fort. I understand how to roll versus a defense. But what bonuses should that Int roll include?

With a weapon, it includes base attack + proficiency + ability.

With an implement, what does it include? (nonmagical, starting implement).

TomTheRat
2008-06-09, 10:03 AM
But going back to the example you used - your players used a set of spells to kill the BBEG lich before you'd expected them to be able to. You call this 'abuse', but these are exactly the kind of options I like to have in a game - the idea that it's possible to use the abilities cleverly to get around problems. I know this isn't what you're intending to say, but it comes out as a bit like "4e rituals are great because with their utility spells nerfed players have less ability to stop the DM railroading them."

Saph, part of the problem that this system solves is that it isn't, and was never the players using these spells to railroad or circumvent. It was the player. The wizard. Everyone else just watched.



That's one issue. The other issue is that I just find the 4e rituals a bit boring, more like work than fun - something you do because you have to. I'd rather have access to the 3.5 Alter Self spell than to every ritual in the 4e Player's Handbook.

How many times did they nerf Alter Self? Seriously. But anyway, the list is sparse and boring and when we get a Book of Rituals it'll be much less so. Just look at Paragon Paths, Epic Destiny and Rituals sections in the PhB as teasers for whats to come.

Saph
2008-06-09, 10:08 AM
Saph, part of the problem that this system solves is that it isn't, and was never the players using these spells to railroad or circumvent. It was the player. The wizard. Everyone else just watched.

Not in my experience. All the players made suggestions, and then the ones able to carry them out did it.

But hey, if it's really a problem for you, there's nothing stopping you from making a party where everyone's a caster or has Use Magic Device. We just never bothered because our group never found it a problem.


How many times did they nerf Alter Self? Seriously. But anyway, the list is sparse and boring and when we get a Book of Rituals it'll be much less so.

I doubt it. I think it was a deliberate design decision by the 4e designers to make the rituals sparse and limited. I think the only way WotC is going to introduce any really versatile rituals is by mistake, or if there's a shift in design philosophy.

- Saph

Hoggmaster
2008-06-09, 10:13 AM
(Oh, quick question: A power, say Thunderwave, says roll Int vs Fort. I understand how to roll versus a defense. But what bonuses should that Int roll include?

With a weapon, it includes base attack + proficiency + ability.

With an implement, what does it include? (nonmagical, starting implement).

It works the same way for all defences base attack (now 1/2 level) + ability vs Defence ... easy as goblin pie!

Kompera
2008-06-09, 07:12 PM
But going back to the example you used - your players used a set of spells to kill the BBEG lich before you'd expected them to be able to. You call this 'abuse', but these are exactly the kind of options I like to have in a game - the idea that it's possible to use the abilities cleverly to get around problems. I know this isn't what you're intending to say, but it comes out as a bit like "4e rituals are great because with their utility spells nerfed players have less ability to stop the DM railroading them."
I know this isn't what you're intending to say, but your position comes out as a bit like "4e rituals are lame because with their utility spells nerfed players have less ability to destroy the campaign setting and continuity."

See how that works?

Getting around problems isn't removed by 4e rituals. Breaking the game is. Getting around problems still exists, as it's still possible to find clues and use a secret entrance to avoid the gate guards. It's still possible to use stealth and discretion to avoid having to fight the roaming guards once inside the fortress of the lich. It's still possible to feed an animal guard to either poison it or distract it long enough to avoid fighting it. It's still possible to play imaginatively and have a good time. All that's been removed is the ability to cast a couple spells and collect the loot, which is what was described in the example. If you like to play like that, that's fine. But I believe that that kind of play is contrary to the spirit of most/all RPGs, including every version of D&D. There needs to be some challenge for a victory to have any meaning, and "*yawn* I cast scry then teleport then the Cleric dominates undead, what's the loot?" doesn't describe overcoming a challenge in the slightest degree.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-09, 08:25 PM
If your players could destroy your campaign setting or continuity in 3.5 then the problem wasn't with the players or their abilities, it was with you for making a setting or continuity that didn't already take those abilities into account.

If scry and die is possible in the setting then every bad guy worth troubling the PC's over will have protections up. If Wall of Iron creates free gold then Iron has no value at all, it is common as dirt and is no longer a trade good.

If teleportation circles are possible then trade routes between major cities don't exist.

If people can become stronger and smarter by wailing on each other with Merciful weapons then that is what schools will be.

Want an explanation? Say that XP is raw magic that can be distilled and used by anyone, killing someone or something frees the distilled magic they have stored and not used. Doing other things that get XP is your body distilling magic.

Why can the fighter jump off a 5,000 foot tall cliff onto a spike and walk away? Because his skin and bones have been strengthened by this raw magic.

-----
The failure of the DM to take into account what abilities the PC's and NPC's have when building a world is not anyone elses fault but theirs. The fact that WotC failed to do this is a problem though.

Chronicled
2008-06-09, 09:44 PM
Good stuff

That, there, is a prime example of why I wish I could be in a game you were DMing. Unfortunately, I no longer live in the DC area...

holywhippet
2008-06-09, 10:29 PM
I'm still not sure about the whole "scry the lich" bit. According to the spell description, the target gets a will save. Unless the caster has met the lich earlier, they get a +5 on that save.

If I was DM, I'd get sneaky about stopping that kind approach. Have a skeleton dressed like the lich follow him around at all times while the lich has a permanent invisibility effect. If the party arrives and casts dominate, they get the wrong target and are wide open for a sneak attack.

I really like the idea of rituals in 4th edition. They remove the need for "just in case" spell memorisation. Should a cleric memorise cure disease? There's no guarantee that a PC will contract a disease, but there is no guarantee that several PCs won't. Having it as a ritual means you can do it as needed.

Mewtarthio
2008-06-09, 11:49 PM
If scry and die is possible in the setting then every bad guy worth troubling the PC's over will have protections up.

But then the scrying spell becomes worthless, since anyone you'd want to use it against is immune to it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-10, 12:00 AM
But then the scrying spell becomes worthless, since anyone you'd want to use it against is immune to it.

Not really. You can still use a lot of the scrying spells (Contact Other Planes, for example) on the baddy themself and you can scry on other things. Like his servant's dog.

With CoP and a map you can narrow the baddies area down to about a square mile area pretty easily. You just can't get a picture of the location for teleporting past his defenses. You know where the Lich's tower is, but you can't teleport to the Lich's treasure vault in said tower.

Rattus
2008-06-11, 10:57 AM
Has anyone cooked up any extra rituals yet? Since they've taken the place of anything that you used to handwave as "put in place by epic magic" in 3.x, I'm interested to hear what rituals people have cooked up for their NPCs to use/players to discover.

Cloister, anyone? :smallamused:

Burley
2008-06-11, 11:43 AM
Here's my favorite thing about Rituals: Enchant/Disenchant item. Mainly because I can use a bunch of items I don't like and make magic goo that I can slap on items I do like to get a pact blade.

Learnedguy
2008-06-11, 01:04 PM
Mechanics aside, here's a thing I don't think anyone has touched upon yet:

Rituals are cool.

Yeah, you heard me. Rituals are cool. Actually, they're awesome. They're made out of the "right stuff".

Drawing pentagrams, lightning candles, reading out of ancient tomes, sacrificing a chicken, going into trance, maybe imprinting some simple tattoos... Now that's how magic is supposed to be done. Not that fancy-pansy waving in the air to orchestra your own personal personal laser show. That's silly.

No, the main thing I like about rituals is the feel it has to it. I can totally picture myself ancient wizards in some equally ancient towers with stuffed alligators laying around sitting down to actually research new awesome rituals. The 3.X magic system always felt a bit bland in comparison.

The fact that everyone with sufficient training can do it is just an added bonus:smallwink:

Nikolai_II
2008-06-11, 04:11 PM
Stuffed Alligators! Yay. That was a long time ago. You also need a black cat named Azrael and a blue guy as your eternal opponent :smalltongue:

Rattus
2008-06-23, 11:00 AM
Learnedguy: I think you hit the nail on the head with the "cool" factor. :smallsmile:

I've come across this (http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgrtvdsv_1fbc9whgb) for a Create Undead and Binding (summoning) rituals. Anyone else found anything cool to contribute?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-23, 11:34 AM
If your players could destroy your campaign setting or continuity in 3.5 then the problem wasn't with the players or their abilities, it was with you for making a setting or continuity that didn't already take those abilities into account.

Fine. But at that point what you're basically saying is that 3.X is only good for running games in which the world has been changed beyond recognition by the trivial availability of absurdly powerful magic.

Which is fine if you want to run Ptolus, not so great if you want to run ... well ... anything else.


If scry and die is possible in the setting then every bad guy worth troubling the PC's over will have protections up. If Wall of Iron creates free gold then Iron has no value at all, it is common as dirt and is no longer a trade good.

And I do not want to run a game in a setting like that. It works in Shadowrun, because mages vs mages is a nice analogue for Hackers vs Hackers, but I don't want to imagine a version of Mordor where Sauron has to trot out to Mount Doom every week to redo the wards, so that people can't teleport the Ring into it.


If teleportation circles are possible then trade routes between major cities don't exist.

If people can become stronger and smarter by wailing on each other with Merciful weapons then that is what schools will be.

Want an explanation? Say that XP is raw magic that can be distilled and used by anyone, killing someone or something frees the distilled magic they have stored and not used. Doing other things that get XP is your body distilling magic.

Why can the fighter jump off a 5,000 foot tall cliff onto a spike and walk away? Because his skin and bones have been strengthened by this raw magic.

-----
The failure of the DM to take into account what abilities the PC's and NPC's have when building a world is not anyone elses fault but theirs. The fact that WotC failed to do this is a problem though.

The fact that the game *requires* me to take such things into account is the number one reason that I've always considered 3.X to be a straight up bad game. I should not have to remember to stick a Mind Blank on all my important NPCs. That's not DMing, that's accountancy.

hamishspence
2008-06-23, 02:48 PM
4E teleportation circles require powerful rituals to use, and are open for very short periods, and each ritual opens circle only one way. That is a distinct improvement on always active circles. More reason for trade.

Enlong
2008-06-23, 02:54 PM
Stuffed Alligators! Yay. That was a long time ago. You also need a black cat named Azrael and a blue guy as your eternal opponent :smalltongue:

No, you need an indignant talking skull and a supply of ghost-killing root beer!