PDA

View Full Version : 4e: Advise me



Newtkeeper
2008-06-08, 12:57 PM
So, I have yet to fork over the cash to the spooky wizard who lives by the coast, and I'd like some information before doing so. I have a few specific questions, but I'd also like general "what changes were made that I might have missed" comments. "It's good because X" and "it sucks because Y" are also appreciated. Those who have not read the rules need not apply (unless they really want to)- I want eyewitness evidence, for preference.

Questions:

How soon does multiclassing work? I've heard it said that you don't so much multiclass as use powers that belong to other classes. Confirm or deny? Elaborate?

I've also heard it said that they've dropped many non-adventuring skills (crafting, profession, etc.). Seems kind of a step back towards hack&slash (not that there's a problem with that- it's DnD's core asset). Confirm, deny, or qualify?

What races made the cut? There was some worry about half-elves and half-orcs, I'd like to know the dice fell on those.

Are characters more or less customizable than in 3.x?

The focus. Is it still mostly a game of dungeon delving, or have other options (especially social ones) been expanded upon?

Do wizards still seem to be Batman?

How long do you reckon before we get 4un-pun?

What of the new OGL? Does it bode well or ill for 3rd party supplements?

Are there still rules for playing certain Monster Manual races?

Am I asking too many questions?

cybosage
2008-06-08, 01:20 PM
Ok I'm going to answer what I can in no particular order: (Holy crap this post got long)

Races - Elf (wood elf), Eladrin (high elf basically), dwarf, human, tiefling, dragonborn, halfling

I think, except for eladrin-elf, the races are very unique and offer some really good roleplaying possibilities.

They did remove many of the non-adventuring skills. It is basically assumed that with a good backround, you say your character is good at it and he is. Realistically, you could add any skill you wanted to, but the skill check system is much different in 4e. Overall DCs and bonuses are lower.

Multiclassing technically can begin at 1st level. This allows you to train a non-class skill and gives you access to a class benefit of the chosen class. You do this by choosing a multiclass feat as your starting feat. Starting at 4th level, you can use feats to swap powers between classes, and eventually you can choose to Paragon Multiclass instead of going down your chosen Paragon Path. This allows you to swap out more powers between the classes. You always replace an old power with a new one.


Character customizability is a hot button topic right now. Many people will tell you that characters are less customizable than 3.5. Overall this is true. However, it is a MUCH simpler system now for multiclassing, and you can have advantages of a second class without having to worry about what bonuses to add, or how your saves stack. You cannot take a 3rd class, but with Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, you are already getting "prestige class" abilities for free anyway.

It's different, and overall gives you a few less options, but in my opinion is much simpler to understand, and doesn't detract from being able to make the kind of character I want to play.

Wizards are no longer the only bread winners. Every class has useful abilities and only when the party is working together does everyone shine. The Warlord is a great example here. Almost all of his abilities have to do with allowing others to take an action.

There are rules in the back of the MM for playing a few monster races. You can now be a Githzerai with no level adjustment (because LA doesn't exist anymore)


Overall, while I was initially excited, then upset (when I found out about the lack of spells, and healing surges) about 4th edition. But it's grown on me. Rituals basically allow any party member to do a little magic with certain training, but the people who are supposed to cast them are still better at it. The shear amount of powers and abilities to choose from is amazing for melee classes, but might feel like a step down (if you don't count rituals) for a caster class.

The nice thing is your wizard will never feel useless after casting his last magic missile. He now can do that at will, and can use some pretty awesome encounter and daily powers too.

Healing surges are a new introduction that basically allow anyone to heal. At first I was really turned off by this, until I started reading what some people considered HP to actually be. Many people stated it was how much damage you could take, but a few related it to your will to fight. Essentially meaning a healing surge is that burst of adrenaline you get when you realize you have to succeed. And with the amount of powers that monsters can use, you will need these!

Encounters are no longer - "The kobold attacks, he misses, your turn." They are far more tactical, positioning is important, and you actually have to be aware of the abilities of each monster your fighting.

Bottom Line
4th ed. gets a thumbs up. It has changed the game, simplified some mechanics that were ridiculous (and some that IMO didn't need to be changed), and made it more fun to play. When we get some more books/options, it's only going to get better.

Saph
2008-06-08, 01:24 PM
So, I have yet to fork over the cash to the spooky wizard who lives by the coast, and I'd like some information before doing so. I have a few specific questions, but I'd also like general "what changes were made that I might have missed" comments. "It's good because X" and "it sucks because Y" are also appreciated. Those who have not read the rules need not apply (unless they really want to)- I want eyewitness evidence, for preference.

Sure.


How soon does multiclassing work? I've heard it said that you don't so much multiclass as use powers that belong to other classes. Confirm or deny?

Basically correct. You can take feats to allow you to use powers from one other class in a limited way. If you take enough feats, you can do a kind of dual-classing at level 11+, but not until then..


I've also heard it said that they've dropped many non-adventuring skills (crafting, profession, etc.).

Correct, they're all gone.


What races made the cut? There was some worry about half-elves and half-orcs, I'd like to know the dice fell on those.

Half-orcs are gone, half-elves are still there. Gnomes are gone, tieflings and dragonborn have been added. Elves have been split into high and wood elves. That's it.


Are characters more or less customizable than in 3.x?

More customiseable (and more powerful) at level 1, less customiseable at higher levels.


The focus. Is it still mostly a game of dungeon delving, or have other options (especially social ones) been expanded upon?

No, it's still very definitely combat-oriented, more so than 3.5 if anything.


Do wizards still seem to be Batman?

Nope, they've been nerfed heavily. They resemble 3.5 warlocks more than anything else.


How long do you reckon before we get 4un-pun?

Two weeks, three days, eight hours.


What of the new OGL? Does it bode well or ill for 3rd party supplements?

Unknown.


Are there still rules for playing certain Monster Manual races?

Yup, see the back of the MM.


Am I asking too many questions?

Yes, but I've got some free time. :P

- Saph

Nikolai_II
2008-06-08, 01:27 PM
Gurr.. I'm numbering my answers here..

1. Multiclassing starts working at level 1, but it is mostly about getting to use powers belonging to other classes, by paying feats for this. First feat is a pretty good use for feats - the others possibly less so, but can be good in small groups to cover for a missing role.

2. All non-adventuring skills are gone. On the other hand 1st edition didn't have them either. If you want them, write them into the character background. In a game based on killing stuff and taking their money it is pretty pointless to figure out if you can make a full plate armor in three months or just ten weeks.

3. Half-elves are there, and marginally more useful in the past. Haven't seen half-orcs yet, but they are supposedly to become available later on.

4. Characters are more customizable than in standard 3.5, except spellcasting. Using all options available in all splatbooks, 3.5 can get up to 4Ed amounts.

5. The game is mostly about killing stuff and taking their money, but there is a new minigame about extended actions that is very pretty and feels quite nifty. This can be used to travel places, make involved attempts upon diplomacy or defeating convoluted traps.

6. Wizards are still batman. Heck, everyone is Batman. Yay! :smallbiggrin:
(Wizards are no longer Superman, though)

7. Pun-Pun is probably gone forever. So at least a couple of years :smallwink:

8. Is no OGL. It has a new name. No idea about how it will work.

9. Plenty of MM races are playable (two dozen or so). Some of them are fairly cool.

10. I thought so, but ten questions is just a lot.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-08, 01:35 PM
How soon does multiclassing work? I've heard it said that you don't so much multiclass as use powers that belong to other classes. Confirm or deny? Elaborate?

You can multiclass by means of a feat @ 1st level. You get a skill and an encounter power. Thereafter, there's a few other power-swap feats that you have to be certain levels to take. At 11th level, you can multiclass rather than take a Paragon Path (4e PrC) - this lets you swap four more powers. Multiclassing into something dumb looks like a really good way to gimp yourself. Fin.


I've also heard it said that they've dropped many non-adventuring skills (crafting, profession, etc.). Seems kind of a step back towards hack&slash (not that there's a problem with that- it's DnD's core asset). Confirm, deny, or qualify?

Craft, Profession, and Peform are not 4e skills. Several other skills have been collapsed into new skills or turned into Trained Only options for certain skills. For instance, the ability from Tumble that allows you to reduce damage taken from a fall is a Trained Only use of the new Acrobatics skill.


What races made the cut? There was some worry about half-elves and half-orcs, I'd like to know the dice fell on those.

Dragonborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Half-elf, Halfling, Human, & Tiefling in the PHB.


Are characters more or less customizable than in 3.x?

Since there's not as many splatbooks for 4e (i.e., none), 3.x characters obviously have more options available to them. Beyond that, 4e characters are sort of railroaded into one of 3-4 Paragon Paths (unless they "multiclass"), which are essentially specializations of certain class roles. For instance, at 1st level a warlock chooses one of three Pacts (fey, infernal, or star). At 11th level, a warlock chooses one of three different Paragon Paths that all require a different Pact (mutually exclusive, btw). Feats in 4e are less powerful but you get more of them. There's more feats in the 4e PHB than 3e PHB, but many of them have racial or class requirements.


The focus. Is it still mostly a game of dungeon delving, or have other options (especially social ones) been expanded upon?

Combat is the main focus of the game, but Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Insight (Sense Motive) remain on the skills list.


Do wizards still seem to be Batman?

Batman is dead, son. Wizards have a lot of interesting utility options, but almost every ability in the game lasts only a round or two at most. You can actively spend actions to sustain some abilities (usually up to 5 minutes at most) but most last 'until the end/beginning of your next turn' if not instantaneous. Wizards have a lot of battlefield control abilities and a number of AoEs along with interesting utility functions but not much else.


How long do you reckon before we get 4un-pun?

Probably never, 4e is too restrictive for that level of ubercheese. But if you look around, you can find people talking about a number of other broken combos in 4e that became known before the game was even officially released.


What of the new OGL? Does it bode well or ill for 3rd party supplements?

I'm in no position to make predictions on this.


Are there still rules for playing certain Monster Manual races?

The Monster Manual has rules for making PCs out of a number of the races (12?) included in that book, such as gnomes and minotaurs.

Daracaex
2008-06-08, 01:36 PM
Half-orcs are gone, half-elves are still there. Gnomes are gone, tieflings and dragonborn have been added. Elves have been split into high and wood elves. That's it.

Not entirely true. Gnomes are gone from the PHB, but they still have an entry for playing them in the back of the MM, along with a bunch of other races.

Newtkeeper
2008-06-08, 01:37 PM
Thanks to all so far.

So, regarding multiclassing, early on you cant't really choose another class, you take abilities off of other classes and add them to your class? An odd way of doing it, but if it works, it works. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

I am annoyed to learn they have removed non-combat skills (don't worry though, I won't smite the messenger). Saying "if it's in your backstory, you have it" is all well and good, but what if it comes down to, say, a smithing competition? (I seem to recall hearing that there actually was one of those in a Finnish epic.) Wouldn't be too hard to make them myself, but it smells of a 'combat is what matters' attitude.

Glad they still have half-elves. My race of preference, and all that (all the elvy goodness combined with good human determination).

One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

clericwithnogod
2008-06-08, 01:51 PM
How soon does multiclassing work? I've heard it said that you don't so much multiclass as use powers that belong to other classes. Confirm or deny? Elaborate?


You get a skill and a bit of another ability from that class plus the ability to access some powers, but how much you feel like you're multiclassed depends on what two classes and how you build it. I have a Rogue/Fighter that feels like a Rogue/Fighter, down to using a bastard sword two-handed a lot while still being able to make sneak attacks, fire a hail of shuriken, and scoot around the battlefield. Some things don't work as well due to MAD and some will work better with more multicalss feats that are upcoming (well, reported to be upcoming, things change).


I've also heard it said that they've dropped many non-adventuring skills (crafting, profession, etc.). Seems kind of a step back towards hack&slash (not that there's a problem with that- it's DnD's core asset). Confirm, deny, or qualify?


A lot of world stuff is hand waved now, craft and profession among them. I would have preferred a background skill list and a system like pick three skills from among craft/profession/knowledge(Local) etc. as trained skills and a progression of pick up one more every level or two or something to remove them from competing with your "important to balance" skills rather than removing them, but that's just me.



What races made the cut? There was some worry about half-elves and half-orcs, I'd like to know the dice fell on those.


Half-Elves in, but still kind of weaksauce. Half-Orcs out, with return somewhat questionable because of their implied unpleasant backstory. If they bring them back, hopefully they'll do it before the only backstory left is "Experimentation by an Evil Wizard(TM)" or somthing equally trite. Gnomes out, but included as a playable race in the monster manual.




Are characters more or less customizable than in 3.x?

Less if you worked at customizing your character in 3.x, more if you're a casual player.



The focus. Is it still mostly a game of dungeon delving, or have other options (especially social ones) been expanded upon?

Pretty much the same, probably more dungeon delving and less social, depending on what you want from social. Using social skills in skill challenges is more common, talking like you're the character may be less so, if you're using social skills for skill challenges. If you ignore social mechanics and roleplay, the same.



Do wizards still seem to be Batman?

Yes, but everyone else isn't Robin.



How long do you reckon before we get 4un-pun?

You can kill Orcus in one round and one of the epic destinies is demigod, but the level has been pushed back from 7 or 9 or whatever by accident to 30 by design (at least the demigod part is by design). But pun-pun is a message board concept rather than something that is a real issue in play.



What of the new OGL? Does it bode well or ill for 3rd party supplements?

Open gaming is no longer a WotC thing. The new GSL will be released this week. But no more total reprints of the core rules.



Are there still rules for playing certain Monster Manual races?

Yes, in the back of the Monster Manual, one of which has already been fleshed out into a full player race in DDI. There were changes to the material from the back of the MM in the new write-up for the warforged, and some races seem to be differently balanced, particularly for certain classes (Drow Rogues for example).


Am I asking too many questions?

Nah.

Edit: My character is a Rogue with Fighter multiclassing rather than a Fighter/Rogue,

Saph
2008-06-08, 01:52 PM
So, regarding multiclassing, early on you cant't really choose another class, you take abilities off of other classes and add them to your class? An odd way of doing it, but if it works, it works. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

I don't think there is one - it was just the easiest way to incorporate multiclassing into the new levelling system.


I am annoyed to learn they have removed non-combat skills (don't worry though, I won't smite the messenger). Saying "if it's in your backstory, you have it" is all well and good, but what if it comes down to, say, a smithing competition? (I seem to recall hearing that there actually was one of those in a Finnish epic.) Wouldn't be too hard to make them myself, but it smells of a 'combat is what matters' attitude.

4e definitely does have a 'combat is what matters' slant. On the plus side, the combats I've tried have been pretty fun.


Glad they still have half-elves. My race of preference, and all that (all the elvy goodness combined with good human determination).

In that case, you'll be pleased to know that half-elves have received a significant power boost from 3.5 edition. :)


One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

The short answer is 'tough'. :P Not even 30th-level 4e characters get as many as 35 different spells. You're going to spend all your career using the same at-will powers, though your 'special move' powers do upgrade.

- Saph

ghost_warlock
2008-06-08, 01:57 PM
Thanks to all so far.

So, regarding multiclassing, early on you cant't really choose another class, you take abilities off of other classes and add them to your class? An odd way of doing it, but if it works, it works. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

I am annoyed to learn they have removed non-combat skills (don't worry though, I won't smite the messenger). Saying "if it's in your backstory, you have it" is all well and good, but what if it comes down to, say, a smithing competition? (I seem to recall hearing that there actually was one of those in a Finnish epic.) Wouldn't be too hard to make them myself, but it smells of a 'combat is what matters' attitude.

Glad they still have half-elves. My race of preference, and all that (all the elvy goodness combined with good human determination).

One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

Other than the power you get from the first multiclass feat, all multiclassing takes place as power swaps, not gains. That is, "I trade X-ability from my base class for Y-ability from my sub-class."

A martial exploit = divine prayer = arcane spell except by name and perhaps the ability the specific power is based on. Everybody uses exactly the same mechanics but tied to different ability scores. Furthermore, you can only know/prepare a set limit of abilities.

You start out knowing 2 at-will powers, 1 encounter power (usable once every 5 minutes or once per battle), and one daily power (usable once per day). Magic missile is an at-will power, which means that a wizard could do nothing but spam magic missile all day long if he felt like it, and which he'll probably have to do if he blows through his encounter/dailies too quickly during a fight.

Every so many levels, you accumulate a new encounter/daily power to a maximum of 4 of each at which point you start swapping low-level for higher-level powers (for most classes, this means that you forget the low-level one completely). You also learn Utility powers, starting at 2nd. You don't swap utility powers, though, and continue to accumulate new ones all the way to 30th (max) level (learning a total of 7, I believe).

Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, and Mutliclassing can net you a few extra powers.

Zocelot
2008-06-08, 01:58 PM
Thanks to all so far.

So, regarding multiclassing, early on you cant't really choose another class, you take abilities off of other classes and add them to your class? An odd way of doing it, but if it works, it works. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

I am annoyed to learn they have removed non-combat skills (don't worry though, I won't smite the messenger). Saying "if it's in your backstory, you have it" is all well and good, but what if it comes down to, say, a smithing competition? (I seem to recall hearing that there actually was one of those in a Finnish epic.) Wouldn't be too hard to make them myself, but it smells of a 'combat is what matters' attitude.

Glad they still have half-elves. My race of preference, and all that (all the elvy goodness combined with good human determination).

One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

1. A class is defined by it's powers and some abilities you get a level 1. Getting powers from another class basically is getting that other class.

2. Some powers are spells, but the non-blasting spells that made the cut are either utility (there are 4 types of powers, at will, encounter, daily, and utility), or have become rituals. You can still rain 35 kinds of destruction down on your foes though. The spell "elemental maw" is a favorite of mine.

Zocelot
2008-06-08, 02:01 PM
Thanks to all so far.

So, regarding multiclassing, early on you cant't really choose another class, you take abilities off of other classes and add them to your class? An odd way of doing it, but if it works, it works. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

1. A class is defined by it's powers and some abilities you get a level 1. Getting powers from another class basically is getting that other class.

2. Some powers are spells, but the non-blasting spells that made the cut are either utility (there are 4 types of powers, at will, encounter, daily, and utility), or have become rituals. You can still rain 35 kinds of destruction down on your foes though. The spell "elemental maw" is a favorite of mine.

Zaeron
2008-06-08, 02:24 PM
Since there's not as many splatbooks for 4e (i.e., none), 3.x characters obviously have more options available to them. Beyond that, 4e characters are sort of railroaded into one of 3-4 Paragon Paths (unless they "multiclass"), which are essentially specializations of certain class roles. For instance, at 1st level a warlock chooses one of three Pacts (fey, infernal, or star). At 11th level, a warlock chooses one of three different Paragon Paths that all require a different Pact (mutually exclusive, btw). Feats in 4e are less powerful but you get more of them. There's more feats in the 4e PHB than 3e PHB, but many of them have racial or class requirements.

I disagree with this for two reasons.

First, it's a little bit unfair of you to use warlocks as an example - the three pacts each create a fairly different type of warlock, so that's a fair amount of (all viable) choices right there. Admittedly, warlocks get shafted on their paragon paths - they're required to take the one that fits their pact. However, they're the only class like that. All the other classes have at least two paragon paths to choose from.

Second, very few of the choices in the PHB that I've seen are 'traps'. I.E. if you choose to be an archery ranger, you're a good ranger. If you choose to be a TWF ranger, you're also a good ranger. It's very difficult to make a truly awful decision when it comes to core classes - vs 3.5, where "I'm playing a fighter, monk, TWF ranger, barbarian without power attack, cleric who focuses on healing, sorcerer.." were all clearly suboptimal choices.

I'd much rather have fewer choices, but have every choice be viable and meaningful, vs a small number of good choices and many, many bad ones.

Finally, and this is an aside, since it involves homebrewing, not existing rules - but paragon paths are very easy to make. Powers are easily created and there are enough examples of paragon path abilities to easily make your own balanced ones. A player and a DM could work together to create a paragon path in under an hour without much issue, and barring a DM who is very bad at homebrew, it should easily come out balanced. To me, that's a much easier way to handle a player's need for a unique class than, say, having to create a balanced, 10 level PRC for them.

ghost_warlock
2008-06-08, 03:43 PM
I disagree with this for two reasons.

First, it's a little bit unfair of you to use warlocks as an example - the three pacts each create a fairly different type of warlock, so that's a fair amount of (all viable) choices right there. Admittedly, warlocks get shafted on their paragon paths - they're required to take the one that fits their pact. However, they're the only class like that. All the other classes have at least two paragon paths to choose from.

4e - 4 paragon paths per class (except warlocks, who only get 3 :smallsigh:) You must be a member of the class, or have the appropriate multiclass feat, to take a paragon path.
3e - literally hundreds of PrCs, scores for each class to choose from; very few have 'must be X-class' requirements. 3e also has many more base classes to choose from.

3e has more options if for no other reason than there's been so much more material published for the system over the years. How can you possibly think that one 319-page (counting index and character sheet) book that mostly details combat rules could contain more options than literally hundreds of similarly-sized books, many of which don't need to use space describing combat rules anymore than those needed to explain the mechanics of new abilities?


Second, very few of the choices in the PHB that I've seen are 'traps'. I.E. if you choose to be an archery ranger, you're a good ranger. If you choose to be a TWF ranger, you're also a good ranger. It's very difficult to make a truly awful decision when it comes to core classes - vs 3.5, where "I'm playing a fighter, monk, TWF ranger, barbarian without power attack, cleric who focuses on healing, sorcerer.." were all clearly suboptimal choices.

I'd much rather have fewer choices, but have every choice be viable and meaningful, vs a small number of good choices and many, many bad ones.

I'd rather the game designers credit me with enough intelligence to notice: "Hey, high-level wizards can stop time and open doorways to other dimensions, druids can turn into bears and control the storms (simultaneously!), and clerics can raise the dead and call upon beings from other planes to do their dirtywork. Man, I'm never going to compare with that by punching or swinging a sharp stick!"


Finally, and this is an aside, since it involves homebrewing, not existing rules - but paragon paths are very easy to make. Powers are easily created and there are enough examples of paragon path abilities to easily make your own balanced ones. A player and a DM could work together to create a paragon path in under an hour without much issue, and barring a DM who is very bad at homebrew, it should easily come out balanced. To me, that's a much easier way to handle a player's need for a unique class than, say, having to create a balanced, 10 level PRC for them.

Yes, I'd expect they'd be easy to homebrew. Let's see here... All* paragon paths receive two features and an encounter power at 11th. At 12th level they all receive a utility power. At 16th they receive another feature and at 20th another daily Power. That's it. Since almost all encounter and daily powers are damage + status-effect abilities, these should be ridiculously easy to make up. Usually, at least one of the class features expands the utility of action points so that shouldn't be too hard, either. So almost half the work is already done for you by virtue of repetition of a template.

*except the Angelic Avenger cleric paragon path, which receives 3 11th-level features, one of which is a weapon proficiency. (Meh)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-08, 04:06 PM
Regarding the disappearance of noncombat skills, don't sweat it. That they're not official skills doesn't mean you cannot make checks for 'em. The DMG has a very nifty table for setting easy, moderate, and hard skill checks that works like a charm.

That's an excellent thing of 4th. If the players want to try something that is not covered by the rules, it has tables to help you assing DC's and damage values, so improvisation can be adequately rewarded.

Inyssius Tor
2008-06-08, 04:20 PM
One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?

Wizards have a class feature that lets them learn two powers when another class would learn one, but can only prepare one per day; there's a feat that increases the number learned to three powers.
And they start out knowing three rituals, by the way, and can learn more automatically as they level.

(Right? I don't actually have the books damnit.)

Chokuto
2008-06-08, 04:27 PM
Is it just me, or does it seem like its MORE complicated?

I'm all about change, but it seems like they took 3.5 and made a "Special" addition like they did in the olympics...

Sorry if I sound upset, I still haven't actually played 4e yet, but the more I hear, the sadder I become....

Zaeron
2008-06-08, 11:33 PM
4e - 4 paragon paths per class (except warlocks, who only get 3 :smallsigh:) You must be a member of the class, or have the appropriate multiclass feat, to take a paragon path.
3e - literally hundreds of PrCs, scores for each class to choose from; very few have 'must be X-class' requirements. 3e also has many more base classes to choose from.

3e has more options if for no other reason than there's been so much more material published for the system over the years. How can you possibly think that one 319-page (counting index and character sheet) book that mostly details combat rules could contain more options than literally hundreds of similarly-sized books, many of which don't need to use space describing combat rules anymore than those needed to explain the mechanics of new abilities?

I made no effort whatsoever to argue that 4e offers more choice than 3.5. That's just ridiculous. I merely pointed out that most classes are not quite as pigeonholed as his Warlock example makes them sound. Every other class has more choice available than a warlock, so it doesn't seem very fair to me to hold them up as the example.

However, arguing that 4e is more restrictive as a system than 3.5 because less content has been released is sort of silly. If we're going to argue the merits of the system then in my opinion the best way to do it is to compare 3.5 core to 4 core. And in my eyes, 4e core offers more choice than 3.5e core does.


I'd rather the game designers credit me with enough intelligence to notice: "Hey, high-level wizards can stop time and open doorways to other dimensions, druids can turn into bears and control the storms (simultaneously!), and clerics can raise the dead and call upon beings from other planes to do their dirtywork. Man, I'm never going to compare with that by punching or swinging a sharp stick!"

So basically, your opinion is that because certain classes have access to extraordinary abilities, it should be obvious that they're a better choice? that just seems silly. Class choice isn't supposed to be "Do I want to be good at the game or bad at the game". Any time a system puts you in a situation where some of the base classes - the classes in the core rulebooks - are clearly, provably weaker in every meaningful way compared to the other choices, I believe the system has failed.


Yes, I'd expect they'd be easy to homebrew. Let's see here... All* paragon paths receive two features and an encounter power at 11th. At 12th level they all receive a utility power. At 16th they receive another feature and at 20th another daily Power. That's it. Since almost all encounter and daily powers are damage + status-effect abilities, these should be ridiculously easy to make up. Usually, at least one of the class features expands the utility of action points so that shouldn't be too hard, either. So almost half the work is already done for you by virtue of repetition of a template.

*except the Angelic Avenger cleric paragon path, which receives 3 11th-level features, one of which is a weapon proficiency. (Meh)

Yeah, that was sort of the point. Having an easy to follow template which allows a variety of different class abilities and powers but provides a clear framework and many similar abilities to compare to would seem to be the definition of a homebrew friendly system. Most DMs don't want to break the game for their players - it was one of the biggest reasons most DMs never wanted to touch custom PRCs - at least, the DMs I knew. And those who did allow custom PRCs or classes frequently compensated to the point of utter worthlessness - classes that were obviously inferior to other classes, but it was "better than them being broken".

Helgraf
2008-06-09, 01:00 AM
So, I have yet to fork over the cash to the spooky wizard who lives by the coast, and I'd like some information before doing so. I have a few specific questions, but I'd also like general "what changes were made that I might have missed" comments. "It's good because X" and "it sucks because Y" are also appreciated. Those who have not read the rules need not apply (unless they really want to)- I want eyewitness evidence, for preference.

Questions:

How soon does multiclassing work? I've heard it said that you don't so much multiclass as use powers that belong to other classes. Confirm or deny? Elaborate?


Alright - to multiclass, you take a feat. That feat gives you one of the special features of the class you selected. It also is the prerequisite for three other feats you can take at levels 4, 8 and 10 respectively that allow you to swap one of your encounter, utility, and daily powers of your base class with one of those of your chosen multiclass. These powers can be swapped out for higher level class powers (of either class) at the appropriate levels just like any of your other powers; so they always remain useful and relevant.

At 11th level, you can opt for Paragon Multiclassing - instead of following a Paragon Path, you may replace one of your at will powers with one from your second class at level 11, and you can gain any of the encounter powers of level 7 or less from your second class in place of the encounter power you'd normally gain for taking a paragon path. At level 12, you gain a level 10 or less utility power from the same class in place of the utility power you would have gained from a paragon path, and at level 20, you gain a daily power of level 19 or less from your second class in place of the daily power you would have gained from a Paragon path.

Similiar in theme, but not directly related - the half-elf may choose to take an at-will power from a different class and use it as an encounter power as a racial benefit. So Half-elves get a sort of 'flavour of multiclass' right out of the gate.



I've also heard it said that they've dropped many non-adventuring skills (crafting, profession, etc.). Seems kind of a step back towards hack&slash (not that there's a problem with that- it's DnD's core asset). Confirm, deny, or qualify?

Yes, they've distilled the skills down to the ones you're most likely to need and have folded multiple skills into overall umbrellas (Athletics for climb/jump/swim type stuff, for example).



What races made the cut? There was some worry about half-elves and half-orcs, I'd like to know the dice fell on those.

Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Half-elves, from the 'core' races are still with us. Gnomes can be run as a monster playable race via rules in the back of the Monster Manual. Tieflings have essentially been promoted from 'optional monster race' to core player race. Dragonborn are, essentially, better balanced half-dragons without the mega-twink features. The elf, so long suffering from 'subrace syndrome' has been split out into two races; the Elf (like a wood elf - more dexterous/stealthy) and the Eladrin (who are more like the grey/gold elves - more intellectual-magicy oriented). There's a large number of 'monster playable as PC' races summarized in the back of the MM in addition to the aforementioned Gnome. The Half-orc seems to have disappeared, but Orc is another of the MM monster playables.


Are characters more or less customizable than in 3.x?

The system has been streamlined, so there aren't as many options _per se_, but since the system dreck options (the designer-implemented deliberately sub-par choices) have been by and large removed, the overall difference isn't as crushing as some would have one believe. The melee classes get more mileage, the do everything magic classes get less, so more of an equilibrium between classes is present.



The focus. Is it still mostly a game of dungeon delving, or have other options (especially social ones) been expanded upon?

The mechanics for social are interesting; I need to go through more of the DMG before I give a final verdict, but based on the social challenges examples I saw in KotS, yes, I feel it's a better system than 3.x had.



Do wizards still seem to be Batman?


Wizards, though still having a number of options, are definitely not "the g-ddamn Batman" anymore. Praise the Lord."



How long do you reckon before we get 4un-pun?


However long it takes the developers to get sloppy with their power construction and fail to catch it in proofing/testing.



What of the new OGL? Does it bode well or ill for 3rd party supplements?


Not qualified to speak on this.



Are there still rules for playing certain Monster Manual races?

See above note on races. The short answer is yes.



Am I asking too many questions?

Not yet.

Charity
2008-06-09, 02:49 AM
One of you mentioned the lack of spells. Does that mean that they have been completely replaced by powers? If so, doesn't that (combined with a limited powers known) sort of limit the generalist wizard? I hear of Rituals, and all that, but what if I want to be able to rain 35 kinds of destruction on my foes?


The short answer is 'tough'. :P Not even 30th-level 4e characters get as many as 35 different spells. You're going to spend all your career using the same at-will powers, though your 'special move' powers do upgrade.

- Saph


Well Wizards do get more adaptability than other classes still.
They pick 2 powers for each daily and 2 of each utility and pick from these at each extended rest, so there is a soupçon of the old wizard there.
Also the wizard has a feat that increases this to 3 per daily/utility so strrictly speaking your choices as a wizard would be -

2 at will (3 if human)
4 encounter
8/12 daily
14/21 utility
28/39 + any ritual casting

Also with retraining you can swap your at wills every level if it should take your fancy to do so... though there are only 5 to choose from.

Nyuk nyuk, you love me really Saph..