PDA

View Full Version : 4e Attack Bonus, AC and Saves



Zocelot
2008-06-08, 04:51 PM
How do people feel about the regulation of Attack Bonus, AC and Saves across all classes?

I feel that it aids in gameplay, but detracts from realism. No wizard wants to have 10 less to attacks then a fighter, especially since just about every attack dependson a hit. A wizard who has never engages in melee should not even be comparable to a fighter, just the difference in strength modifier isn't enough for me. With the simplicity of 4e, it would be too complicated to have a seperate ranged and melee attack bonuses, and even then bows and spells are completely different. I think because of the more defined roles, a wizard isn't going to try to hit an enemy with his sword nearly as much as he will cast spells. Still, just knowing that the rules allow it bugs me a bit.

If there already is a thread dedicated to this, could somebody please redirect me?

Spiryt
2008-06-08, 04:57 PM
How do people feel about the regulation of Attack Bonus, AC and Saves across all classes?

I feel that it aids in gameplay, but detracts from realism. No wizard wants to have 10 less to attacks then a fighter, especially since just about every attack dependson a hit. A wizard who has never engages in melee should not even be comparable to a fighter, just the difference in strength modifier isn't enough for me. With the simplicity of 4e, it would be too complicated to have a seperate ranged and melee attack bonuses, and even then bows and spells are completely different. I think because of the more defined roles, a wizard isn't going to try to hit an enemy with his sword nearly as much as he will cast spells. Still, just knowing that the rules allow it bugs me a bit.

If there already is a thread dedicated to this, could somebody please redirect me?

Another things that bugs me.

Fortunately, if 4ed is indeed so simple, maybe it would be easy to homebrew it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-08, 05:00 PM
No need to do so. You're underestimating the difference a few feats and a high modifier create, guys. At high levels (Paragon and onwards), the wizard is NEVER going to hit unless he rolls 20's in melee. NEVER.

Zocelot
2008-06-08, 05:03 PM
Another things that bugs me.

Fortunately, if 4ed is indeed so simple, maybe it would be easy to homebrew it.

Sorry, simple isn't really the word that I'd use to best describe it. Elegant is much better.

Behold_the_Void
2008-06-08, 05:04 PM
No need to do so. You're underestimating the difference a few feats and a high modifier create, guys. At high levels (Paragon and onwards), the wizard is NEVER going to hit unless he rolls 20's in melee. NEVER.

Pretty much. Proficiency bonuses. Power bonuses. Feat bonuses. All this makes a HUGE difference. At high levels the Wizard WILL be about 10 points behind the fighter vs. AC in melee.

Spiryt
2008-06-08, 05:09 PM
Sorry, simple isn't really the word that I'd use to best describe it. Elegant is much better.

Saves, Ac etc are simple as hell, and I don't know what's elegant in it. It's like calling stick elegant.

That's just another matter of opinion, but I don't get it's simplyfying at all. Of course, a lot things needed to be simplier ( grapple is probably best example), but things that actually could use some elaborating... Gets dumber. :smallconfused:

Zocelot
2008-06-08, 05:18 PM
Saves, Ac etc are simple as hell, and I don't know what's elegant in it. It's like calling stick elegant.

That's just another matter of opinion, but I don't get it's simplyfying at all. Of course, a lot things needed to be simplier ( grapple is probably best example), but things that actually could use some elaborating... Gets dumber. :smallconfused:

I meant the entire system. There is a reason these people get paid to make a system, while others homebrew for free. It's nice to be able to flip to one page, read one paragraph, and know exactly what to do in almost every situation. The status effect column is my favorite, with every single one in just over one half of a page.

Charging and bull rushing have been really dumbed down, for no real reason. They were simple enough, but now they feel like they were made for idiots. I also liked being able to disarm and sunder, but I can understand that no player ever has fun when their character is rendered completely useless.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-08, 05:21 PM
Saves, Ac etc are simple as hell, and I don't know what's elegant in it. It's like calling stick elegant.

That's just another matter of opinion, but I don't get it's simplyfying at all. Of course, a lot things needed to be simplier ( grapple is probably best example), but things that actually could use some elaborating... Gets dumber. :smallconfused:

Name 'em. We'll see if they got dumb or not.

Spiryt
2008-06-08, 05:44 PM
Name 'em. We'll see if they got dumb or not.
Things that could use more elaborating, but get too simple?

Like OP wrote : AC, Saves, BaB
- Abilites, and their influence on character Now Inteligence really doesn't do anything to non Wizard for ex.
- non combat stuff like skills.
- Character customization. They did quite well with feats, there's a lot choices now, but on the other side thy're quite uninteresting now.


Those are few examples for now, I must really sleep now.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-08, 06:01 PM
Things that could use more elaborating, but get too simple?

Like OP wrote : AC, Saves, BaB
- Abilites, and their influence on character Now Inteligence really doesn't do anything to non Wizard for ex.
- non combat stuff like skills.
- Character customization. They did quite well with feats, there's a lot choices now, but on the other side thy're quite uninteresting now.


Those are few examples for now, I must really sleep now.

Oh, so you mean they streamlined it?

In order: AC, Saves, and BaB were changed because they are, in fact, a better system than the 3.5 scaleups. It's much harder to break a unified progression, and the classes get boosts that make the difference between them.

1) O RLY? Well, then, say bye-bye to a nice bonus to Reflex, AC, and skills. And that's to say nothing of the tremendous bonus a Warlord gets from High Int. Check the facts before you start spouting gibberish.

2) How so? The skills do what they're supposed to do. No more shall someone diplocheese their way to victory, or make whole builds and feats obsolete due to a good tumble.

Or you're talking about the lack of the now-suddenly-cherished-but-previously-useless-and-ignored noncombat skills such as profession or craft? For those, there's a DC table in the DMG that NEVER fails. Who said it was hard to use 'em?

3) That's because Power's are supposed to be the make-it-or-break-it now. Feats ARE supposed to be boring, to prevent gross combinations and gamebreakers. They're there to enhance your powers. Consider them mods to a game.