Can someone recommend me a good RPG video game?

[Jeivar]

The Baldur's Gate series, Knights of the Old Republic 1 and Jade Empire have created in me a deep love of these kinds of immersive, story-and-character-driven games, with an interesting, epic story and colorful NPC's to go with the action. The problem is, there seem to be just so damn few that meet my standards. Fallout 1 and 2 are fun, but are sort of a different flavor, since the open-endedness necessitates a looser story and none of the NPC's play a major role since you can murder anyone if you so desire. I gave Oblivion a try, but aside from the various frustrations of the gameplay I completely failed to become invested in the story, and got sick of my character being a lone mute running around with no whacky or dramatic NPC's to keep him company. Like I said, I need CHARACTERS to enjoy a lengthy RPG. Heck, Minsc, Imoen and Jaheira are half the reason I played Baldur's Gate 2 through twice.

I tried Neverwinter Nights 2 a few months ago, and really enjoyed it for a while: Fun gameworld and combat, I loved most of the NPC's and their interactions, and Bishop is actually the first Evil NPC I feel a shred of respect for, since at least he wasn't a frothing, obnoxious, brickheaded berserk moron who kicks every puppy he sees. He actually has a brain in that evil head of his. Granted, I detested Quara and that Gith cleric bored me to tears, but whatever, I just left them out of the fun. Then came Ammon Jerro's Lair, and turned my admiration of the game developers into HATE, and I haven't really felt like playing it since.

I like what I've heard about Mass Effect, but sadly will probably have to get a new computer before getting it.
As for KOTOR 2, I guess one day I'll write a lengthy thesis on why I utterly, utterly detest whatever chuds created that disgrace of a sequel, but this post is long enough as it is.

So, can some kind soul quench my thirst for a great, action-filled story with interesting sidekicks? I'm no graphics whore; The graphics can be badly out of date as long as the actual substance makes up for it.

[Blayze]

the open-endedness necessitates a looser story and none of the NPC's play a major role since you can murder anyone if you so desire

Two words - Planescape: Torment. That's all I'll say, other than...

"What can change the nature of a man?"

Edit: Trust me, you *will* thank me (And PS:T's other supporters) for this later.

Edit 2: Oh, and make sure to *ignore* Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. This game's all about Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma - and what you can use them to get. Wisdom especially, as it gives a bonus to EXP the higher your stat is.

[Oregano]

The remake of Temple of Elemental Evils also very good, not really a fantastic story like Planescape Torment but you make a whole party and g on adventures, really fun, works from D&D 3.5.

[poleboy]

Be aware that PS: Torment is somewhat different from games like BG2. You will spend most of the game reading dialog, since the actual fighting bits are rather short and often a little bland. The gameworld is not as large as many other games, but every single NPC has lots of interesting things to say. If you expect to be carried through the story like most newer Bioware games tend to do, you will probably be disappointed. Torment rewards you mostly for discovering things yourself, which is often done (or at least triggered) by talking to people and/or reading things.

[factotum]

Add another vote for Planescape: Torment here--if you want story in an RPG, it'll feed you enough to choke on and more, but you'll never be less than fascinated by it.

[Pronounceable]

Of all the RPGs ever made, Torment is the best.

There's also a horde of Final Fantasies out there which emphasize story and characters. Downside, jRPG gameplay is retarded.

[Cainen]

By the way, the Gith cleric is based off of a particularly interesting character from Planescape:Torment, so don't get reviled by him instantly due to the connection. He's also mentioned in NWN2, which pretty much gives away the intentional connection.

[Oregano]

Dark Messiah's also good, but it's a bi more adventure style game and is very linear but it's a brilliant game with modern graphics.

[Fostire]

On NWN2 i liked the expansion more than the original adventure. I actually got bored of the original adventure and finished the expansion first.

[Tom_Violence]

Actually, if you really really detested KotOR2 then maybe Torment isn't quite the game for you, since they're both made by the same people and have a lot of similarities.

[Cespenar]

Nah, he must have detested it for its incomplete feel (more than feeling, actually) which Planescape doesn't have.

[Tom_Violence]

I wouldn't've thought that the mere factor that the ending had some gaping holes in it was enough to warrant such bile, but I guess everyone is allowed their occasional wild overreactions. :smalltongue:

[Jeivar]

Thanks for the Planescape recommendations, everyone. I DID actually borrow it and give it a try, like eight years ago, and I can't even really remember why I didn't complete it. I've been meaning to start it again, especially now that I have a better grasp of English. Though finding a copy in my little town might be easier said than done.


Actually, if you really really detested KotOR2 then maybe Torment isn't quite the game for you, since they're both made by the same people and have a lot of similarities.

Well, about 50% of my hate stems from the horrible mangling of continuity from the first game, along with the whole "Hah-hah! All that stuff you accomplished was meaningless!" theme. Yeah, I can live without having one of my fondest, most beloved gaming experiences sullied by a grotesque combination of Highlander 2 and Alien 3 . . .

*Ahem* But since Torment stands alone, I guess I won't have that problem.

[Twin2]

If you have a ps2 try and find Persona 3. A very good jrpg if you don't mind them.

[Elidyr]

Vampire Bloodlines of course. Probably the best RPG on the PC in the past few years.

Even with its crazy memory leaks and some odd bugs, I found it to be much more enjoyable then wressling with NWN2's nightmarish UI. And the NPCs and story are way better then the generic NPCs and stories Bioware seems to dish out in all their recent games.

[Jube]

Personally I found BG II better than PS:T. PS:T is (very) good but well, I don't like the setting as much and playing a huge burly Warrior when you're a mage with 11 Con and 10 Str just seems silly ><

Lack of armour, almost complete lack of ranged weapons and the fact it doesn't completely work on my computer (Punishment for having a good computer). But yeah, still a FANTASTIC game. If you haven't played it to completion at least once do so.

Things like interacting with Dak'kon, Morte (PS:T's Minsc <.<) and most of the dialogue are priceless and timeless though. When you puzzle out the Unbroken Disk for the first time you're like "AMG Holy ****!". Spell animations I find are often better than the BG series too which's nice.

Still the ending ****ing sucks and even though there's multiple ways to get there (You don't even have to fight the final boss) it's still a ****ty **** ending.

That said, I continue to be the only person that actually likes KoTOR II which makes me sad.

The characters were a LOT better than 1. Only really interesting 1 only characters in 1 was Mission and her Wookie. Bastilla annoyed me, the romance with her was juvenile and silly. The plot was kind'a cool but the endings sucked (Dark side was kind'a cool I suppose). 2 had Atton (****ing awesome), Handmaiden (Also awesome) and Visas (Kind'a awesome), an Evil Wookie and Mandalor's always fun (But he was in both games so I dunno if that counts. Same with HK-47, HK-47 being almost the dictionary definition of awesome.).

The Jedi/Sith powers were better done, you could switch from Blasters <-> Melee instantly and the Light/Dark choices you made seemed a lot more realistic (ie Even with the best intentions good things could go wrong, or doing the Evil thing didn't always wreck lives. On the small scale at least).

Ending sucked and there was a lot left that they didn't put in the game, but what was there was mostly awesome.

Still nothing was more pointless than the end of the first act of KoTOR I. "Woot, saved all these peoples lives, gave most of my credits away to get this guy outt'a debt and started these people off on a journey of their tribe. I've done a lot of good things, warm and fuzzy"
*ENTIRE WORLD IS DESTROYED*
****! All those credits I gave away D=

Makes the entire first act a waste of time >.>

[Trazoi]

Another vote for Planescape: Torment for me.

Also if you hated KoTOR 2 mostly for its woefully broken nature, there's a fan made mod being made by Team Gizka (http://team-gizka.org/) that is very almost finished that purportedly fixes that. I'm hoping it'll make it a lot better, but I have to wait until it's released before I can judge whether it succeeds at doing that.

[Curris]

I absolutely have to bring up the Ultima Collection!

How many of you have heard of Tabula Rasa? Great game? I don't know, but it's on my to buy list anyway. Why? Richard Gariott. That's why. Mr. Gariott founded Origin Systems, the company that put out the Ultima Series. 9 games came out, starting on the Apple II and working on up the tech scale to PCs. Now, Ultima 1-4 are old, old 1985-89 relics, and while excellent, recommended only for fans of the series. U5 had good sprite graphics, U6 had 2D-celsprites simulating great 3D. Furthermore, the game shined in exploration. In fact, the games came packed with cloth maps of the lands! The game had a very indepth philosophy and culture, mainly involving the main character being an avatar to eight virtues. Seriously, it changed my life in a good way, just from playing the game and getting into it. The world was heavily populated, and often every NPC had a clue to a puzzle, lost treasure, or another myriad piece to think about. Complex conversation trees. In the game, they included a lot of Runic alphabet, like the celtic runes of history. From playing the game, I learned to read and write it by heart. (Not a chore, I loved every minute of it). U8 and U9 were sadly rushed, and lost a lot of the appeal, even though they pushed into full 3D. . . Recommended to finish the series, but sadly, not what they could be.

Sadly, it's very hard to find an official copy on disc nowadays. Origin is no more, being bought out by EA. Mr. Gariott founded a new company Destination Systems.

It's not my policy to encourage data piracy, but it's quite easy to find a copy of some of the greatest RPG's that focused all about exploration, NPC interaction and the best overarching story I've ever found.

I've also seen Neverwinter Nights remakes of the games, as well as Pencil & paper adaptations. I've ran one too.

Long story short, I can't reccomend it enough. . . And I have to ask, have I any supporters out there? Who else has played?

[H. Zee]

Still the ending ****ing sucks and even though there's multiple ways to get there (You don't even have to fight the final boss) it's still a ****ty **** ending.


Nnngh... *controls NERDRAGE*

I respectfully disagree. The ending of Planescape: Torment is deep and meaningful and entirely in keeping with the rest of the game's themes. I shall put the rest in a spoiler tag, since I know Jeivar, at least, hasn't played it yet.

Is it the fact that you die which annoys you? Or the fact that you go to Hell? Well, vis a vis the first, that's the whole point of the game and the reason for pretty much everything - the Nameless One (TNO) is tired of life, and what's more, his immortality is responsible for the deaths of countless others, so his final death is an achievement rather than a disappointment.

And as for the going to Hell thing, yes it's very bittersweet, but a melancholy ending isn't a bad ending. It's very touching, and every time I complete the game I feel the same sense of contentment and sadness over having finished which I get after I complete a very good book, which never happens after any other game I've played, and never happens after a bad ending. And also, if you've played it right, TNO knows his true name and is ridiculously powerful, so you get the sense that he's going to kick some serious ass in the Blood War.

I can understand your reasons for being upset if you did not discover how to resurrect your allies before your own death, but if you did, their dialogue contributes to an already wonderful ending. Also, if you do not manage to join with the Transcendent One, then that ending also pretty much sucks. But if you unlock the best ending, it’s immensely satisfying, and I’m at a loss as to how anyone could think differently.

*embarrassed cough* Rant over now.

But anyway. Another vote for Planescape: Torment.

[Tengu]

The "good" ending to Torment,
where you fuse with the antagonist, resurrect all your friends and bid them farewell before leaving for the Blood War,
is one of the most moving scenes in a western RPG ever.

[Turcano]

How many of you have heard of Tabula Rasa?

I have. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/9-Tabula-Rasa)

Anyway, I've heard good things about Morrowwind, and somewhat less good things about Oblivion.

[Tom_Violence]

I have. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/9-Tabula-Rasa)

Anyway, I've heard good things about Morrowwind, and somewhat less good things about Oblivion.

Eh, even Morrowind is a game that you pretty much have to bring a book along for.

@Jube - I like KotOR2, but you're still wrong about the ending of Planescape. For shame! What on earth didn't you like about it? What else did you expect to ever happen?

[Holy_Knight]

I would recommend Tales of Symphonia. I rented it not too long ago, liked it enough to buy it, and never regretted that decision. The battle system was really fun, the characters were likeable, and the story ended up being better and more involved than it appears to be at first. It also stands as one of the few RPGs which really does offer as much gameplay time as they claim on the box. As a bonus, it's a few years old now, so you can get it fairly cheap (I think mine cost about nineteen dollars.)




That said, I continue to be the only person that actually likes KoTOR II which makes me sad.
Nah, I liked it too (and apparently so did Tom Violence). Although, I can say that I have never played the first one, which could have a lot to do with why.



2 had Atton (****ing awesome),
Pure Pazzak.

...

...

...

(...okay, I liked Atton too, but you have to admit that THAT got pretty damn annoying after a while.)



Handmaiden (Also awesome)
Crap, why can't I remember her now? I'll take your word for it that she was awesome.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I do remember her, and you're right.



and Visas (Kind'a awesome)
Yeah, she was cool, although it seemed like there should have been more to her story, somehow.


Same with HK-47, HK-47 being almost the dictionary definition of awesome.).
Actually, I'm one of the few people who didn't like the HK-47, I guess. Well, it's not so much that I couldn't have liked him theoretically, it's just that when you're trying to be a perfect paragon of Jedi virtue, a murderous assassinbot doesn't mesh so well, you know? And sadly, a second, dark side playthrough was made tragically impossible due to unfortunate circumstances regarding me no longer continuing to have an X-box.



Ending sucked and there was a lot left that they didn't put in the game, but what was there was mostly awesome.

That sounds about right.

Also, I've always been proud of the name that I came up with for my character: "Cavilon Brace". Cool, huh? That just sort of came to me when I started the game, and I've always liked it.

[Jube]

Hmm. This reply might take me a while. This is in Responce to Tom Violence, Tengu and Zaraki.

Not really sure if you guys wanna read this to be honest. If you like the ending why bother reading something telling you why they feel it sucks. The best case scenario is the ending is soured (ever so slightly) for you...



First keep in mind that I don't dislike PS:T and I reccomend it to anyone, that I'm a huge fan of all the games in those series (Except IW:D which I haven't played more than a few hours of but didn't like the lack of true party members BG and PS:T offered). Infinity Engine continues to be one'a my favourite game engines ever.

Also keep in mind that I've played the game through multiple times (Less than BG but more than any of the KoTORs >.>), I've gotten the "Good" ending, I've ressed my party members, I've gotten the bad ending, I've fought the Transcendant one, I've talked him out of it, I've done it all.

That said:

I didn't really mind that you die, it's not a horrible thing really. For starters it frees Dhak'kon. The bit where you talk to your party members, well it's been a while since I clocked it (Playing it through right now actually but I'm only up to the latter Sigil, goddamn Exams and Assignments) so I don't remember that too well. I do remember it being a lot better/more satisfying than the other endings.

My problem with it is twofold:

1)

It makes no real difference who you are or what you do, I've mentioned this before and it's still true. You can be a righteous do-gooder, a crusader of justice and morals and there's few consequences (A couple'a items and some XP at some points). You can be a conquering warlord, evil and terrible to behold. Again no real consequences.

That's no huge deal in game, but the very least I was expecting was some bearing on the ending. But no, the only bearing on the ending is your Char your Wis or having the Blade of the Immortal (Which gives a bad ending). That's a problem with the entire game but it's particulaly galling here.

Oh, you created a fighter without a ****tone of Char (24)? Well, you get an average ending.
Oooh you created a Mage? Here's a much better ending! It's true that there's a lot of Stat upgrades througout the game but all that means is that if you make the first (Requiring 24) check you'll make the others.

So.
If I'm a badass, take no prisoners *******, killing anyone who comes my way and razing villages on a whim I'll get a more poigant ending than someone who does only right or good but wanted to play a Fighter or Thief, not that it really matters since the ending you get as that still annoys me.

2)

Even more than that though the sheer inevitability of it all annoys me. No matter what you do, so long as you're not Unmade (BAD END) or Lose your memory/way (Not possible but BAD END) it doesn't matter who or what you did.

Nothing matters. Your actions are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what your past incarnations did. The entire theme of the game, the overriding question "What can change the nature of a man" you even find the answer at the end, Belief.

OOP NOTHING CAN; GO DIRECTLY TO HELL DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200.

I was really dissapointed when I got to the end on a good character, went throughout the planes doing good deeds. Some amazing deeds even, saving thousands, then oop. Off to the blood war, turns out you were bad in the past even though you repent it utterly and took ridiculously huge steps to trying to make up for it.

Then it wasn't so bad, I mean like Zaraki said the Blood War's a War and TNO is ****ing godly at the end of the game. He'll kick ass, take names, potentially become a wrecking force of destruction. Then I looked up what the Blood War actually was, the history of it and so on.

Ah, so none of that'll even matter. Just an endless war with no end that even the demons fighting in it tire of. Demons far more powerfull than he'll ever be, fighting a foe that will never end, seperated only by Lawfull vs Chaotic. I beat the game, I do a bunch'a good things and my reward is to join in a neverending feud that serves no point, will eventually kill me when I'm dead (What happens then? Oblivion?) and well, renders every single act I did moot.

It's the same if I'm evil, it's the same if I'm neutral. All that matters is how your past lives did, all the actions done before the game started completely out of your control. It felt cheap and unnescesary, why not let TNO start anew? Why force him to die? Why not simply put him back into the world having regained his mortality, to live one last time and be judged as he lived?



The first time I clocked it I was so completely dissapointed I went and clocked it again to make sure I got the good ending, surely I'd ****ed up somewhere and that was the bad ending.

I remember after that I just kept thinking about how they should'a made a sequel. Take on Annah, Fall From Grace, Morte or Dhak'kon and go on a little rescue mission. Something rather than being sentanced to, that...

[Jube]

Oh and you never find out TNO's name. I really wanted to know!

Also Holy_Knight, you missed out man! There's little more satisfying when you've finished a long, glorious campaign as a Jedi than to run through again as a Sith, kicking the ass of everyone you previously saved and hearing them whigne about it.

Turning Atton Evil, Turning Handmaiden (The chick you had to fight mostly naked) evil. Visas didn't really change, but she stayed evil rather than instantly turning good so it made more sense.

Good times.

[Holammer]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a recommendation that isn't Planescape Torment. It got immersive character interaction like there's no tomorrow. One of my favorite characters in the story is Dak'kon a suffering Githzerai voiced by Mitch Pileggi.
If the protagonist got enough intelligence, he can help Dak'kon understand the unbroken circle of zeritimon. This will unleash absolutely ludicrous amounts of dialogue. Raising the immurshun'o'meter to OVER NINE THOUSAND! :smallsmile:

If you don't shy away from old 16 bit games, why not try Final Fantasy III (or FF6). It's probably the epitome of character driven storylines on the 16bit consoles. You could probably get the remake on the GBA because the SNES version was actually never released in Europe... Or just pretend nobody's looking and get an emulator.

[Pronounceable]

Hey, I loved KotoR2 too. It contained almost as much awesome as the original trilogy (maybe even more, considering KotoR doesn't have the effing teddy bears). Or it would've, if the damned Lucasarts (or whoever) hadn't rushed the production.



...stuff...

I realize it's pointless and you won't be changing your mind, but I'll defend Torment's end.


TNO's end is inevitable. He is condemned to Blood War (which is truly as bad as you make it sound, it isn't the ultimate punishment for nothing) because he *deserved* it in his real life. When he realized that even the rest of his life spent on doing good won't be enough to redeem him, he sought immortality to have enough life for redemption (interesting to note is the way he manipulated Ravel into helping, which casts doubt on the original's sincerity of regretting his evil). Which backfired, and he sank even lower. His past original life and further incarnations' deeds have irrevocably damned him, and a single incarnation (like us) couldn't possibly do enough good even to budge the scales a tiny bit.

The only thing we as a player can accomplish is the ending of the damage TNO inflicts upon multiverse and its inhabitants with each incarnation. Look at Deionarra (or Dak'kon or Pharod or Ignus or... the list goes on) for an example, it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Belief may be the correct answer to the infamous question, but there's one important thing there: Even TNO himself believes that he should be punished (not to mention countless others who'd agree). Once he has become complete again, knowing all his history, he can't help but know his time is up. Plus TNO's natural life ended centuries (or millenia maybe) ago, he's already too late for his deserved afterlife. He can't have another mortal life (which wouldn't be long enough to budge the scales anyway).

Inevitability of TNO's damnation is the major point of the game. This is an opera, it cannot end well.

BTW, TNO's name is unimportant. What name designers could come with would please people anyway?

[Blayze]

Regarding TNO's name...

"Adahn" would give the game even more tasty - yet cheesy - irony.

As for the ending? I haven't finished the game yet - I always lose interest after I end up in Curst - but that's one *damn* fine ending. It really was the only way it could end. I mean, at the end of it all TNO's lived enough lifetimes and done enough to be *beyond* the level of a Power.

In the game itself, you can reach Level 127 in all three classes and the only reason your stats don't advance past 25 (Or your level past 127 per class) is because it's an in-game limitation.

And then...

And then he goes and merges with all of his past incarnations, learns his true name, becomes insanely powerful - and *then* he merges with his own mortality and becomes something *greater*. Hell, he could probably end the Blood War on his own - which is ironic considering where he ends up.

[poleboy]

Jube:

It seems to me that you want Torment to be KotoR or Fallout. You want your every action to have a profound effect on the gameworld. You want to be either the stereotype Messiah or the stereotype Evil Bastard that newer Bioware RPG's offer.

Torment is not the kind of game that anxiously awaits your every action, trying to mold its characters into vague and uninteresting copies of you and its storyline into your personal fantasy (*cough*KotoR series*cough*).
It's the kind of game that tells you to sit down and shut up while it tells you a story.

Spoilers ahoy!


While I can understand your complains about the actual game mechanics that lead to the different endings (and I agree, alignment has little to do with it), I certainly think there was a big difference between the "good" and "evil" (not "pointless") endings. It seems to me that you are complaining that the game does not bend to your will (i.e. you're acting like a saint so you expect to be treated like the Messiah.)
The fact is that TNO's fate was determined long before you as the player come into the game. Changing the nature of a man can mean a lot of things, and it does not necessarily mean changing his fate. Besides, I would personally have strongly disliked a "redemption" ending, where the Gods suddenly decide that several lifetimes of murder and destruction is offset by a few good deeds. TNO pays for his sins eventually. The difference lies in whether he accepts this or not (or is even aware of why).

[Jube]

Hey, I loved KotoR2 too. It contained almost as much awesome as the original trilogy (maybe even more, considering KotoR doesn't have the effing teddy bears). Or it would've, if the damned Lucasarts (or whoever) hadn't rushed the production.

=D
Good to see another KoTOR II fan then! I was seriously getting despondant about that game, everyone else seems to despise it.

First Cnsvnc



Well the only thing you wrote that I actually really disagree with is about the original's sincerity in regretting evil. I've always kind of wondered if he repented his evil so much as simply feared the punishment that was waiting. However I don't think it's really fair to use Ravel as the proof of this, since well she was (very) evil and he was desperate. It could just as easily be read as he was so concerned with making sure he repented/made up for his evil deeds that he would go to even the farthest lengths. Like a Paladin willing to kill 1 to save 1,000.

Regardless, that's a side point. My problem with the ending seems to be the thing that you enjoyed so much about it, it cannot end well.

You live a good life, you die and you leave Annah, Dhak'kon, FFG and Morte mourning you (Nordrom too I guess, kind'a?). Everything the entire time has been completely out of your hands, the story was almost pointless in it's telling, your changes are minimal and your effect is pointless compared to that of those that came before you.

In the end nothing can change the nature of a man, regardless of who he is he will be punished for all eternity for what he did (Even if it wasn't really him doing it >.>).

I don't disagree with anything you've written because my complaint wasn't that it wasn't an internally consistent or logically sound ending. My complaint was simply that I thought it was unsatisfying and, well I don't want to say cop out, but it was nothing if not abrupt ("Woo final boss down. Oop, hey it's Eternal Damnation time, lets do some quick goodbyes(Hope you were a mage!) and kk, now a 5sec Cinematic and DONE!")

That and well, I don't really want to harp on and on about this but if you play through the game normally, without a walkthrough and don't play a Mage you don't get to end the damage to any of your party members. You just get to lead them to an unsatisfying and pointless death. That isn't the crux of my argument, I'm not arguing out of any kind'a mage hate (Since I do tend to play casters, except in WoW for whatever reason) I'm simply pointlessly refuting a throwaway statement you made. I'm awesome like that =P


As for the name, I dunno anything really. Would'a been especially nice if it was some throwaway comment made once by someone, like a street begger yelled it for no reason and no obvious connections. Or something buried somewhere in the game... Cheap little foreshadowing that'd give the explorer/hardcore fans a smile at the end. It just felt like a bit of a cop out when it was "And now you know. Good job! =D"

And now Poleboy, who I have a feeling was barely restraining himself from using some ad-hominem statements when he was writing his reply =P

I think you're doing some splitting here, which's why I tried to make it very clear in my second post I LIKE PS:T a lot (Not quite as much as BG II but that's just person preference in terms of Fantasy world and character design) I like the story, I like the characters, I like everything about it except:

A) The end
B) The Morte "Twist", where you go into your Tomb and read the walls and "OH MY GOD, DON'T TRUST THE SKULL! HE'S BEEN PLAYING YOU ALL ALONG!? But why, and for who!? What a great twist, how will this end? Is he working for the shadows that chase you? Will he betray you!? Can I prevent it!? Can I turn him around and get him to betray whoever he works for!?" then about 20sec later "Oh... The twist was that there isn't a twist. It was put there to make you expect he was evil but he's "good"(Well on your side) all along... How anti-climatic..."

And I freaking liked Morte, but you cannot tell me that wasn't a cheap/lame addition to the plot. Come to think of it that tomb really served no real purpose itself, they really should'a fleshed that thing out.

I don't ask it to be KoTOR or Fallout and I don't really like what you're insinuating about me (lets just leave it at that, no need for more). Saying that I want the character to be uninteresting is kind'a cheap, especially when you're talking about a character like TNO, who the entire freaking game is built upon and even if he was a Paragon of Virtue/Evil would still be interesting.

That said it actually is the same as the newer/older (It's more like BG than KoTOR/ME) Bioware games, you are either a Virtuous Knight of Goodness and Joy! Or a Baddass Evildoer of Eviltown and sadness! (Or Neutral McNeutralpants, but who plays as Neutral?). You can pick and choose and go in between as you will but every path pretty much as a Good option a Bad option and sometimes a few Less Good/Bad options. So, strawman argument? Eh, maybe. Anyhow I think I'm getting a little overly defensive, so lets move on and I'll defend again why I disliked the ending!

Spoilers ahoy! =D


My complaint isn't about the game bending to my will and treating a good character like a messiah. It's about my character getting a different ending for his actions. The same thing you say? Maybe, I think it's a lot better than giving me a different ending based on my class/Point choices.

Afterall one is giving you a worse/better ending from something you consciously and actively did. Another gives you a worse/better ending from something you had no idea about unless you read a walkthrough. The game wants me to sit down, shut up and tell me a story? Sure, I'm all ears. But I'd prefer it if it didn't cut out ALMOST ALL THE INTERESTING PARTS OF THE STORY because it didn't like the how I dress (ie Arbitrary choices. Don't choose a Mage don't get almost any of the really interesting conversations and more importantly don't get the "good" ending).

And I understand that the ending to the story was determined long before I took the controls, I'm not arguing that I'm simply saying I personally find it a weak storytelling device. I found the ending unsatisfying and rather unfair (Yes the "Better" ending is a lot better, that did improve things a little/lot but at the end of the day the fact that everything you've done throughout the entire game barely matters isn't really my idea of a good ending).

It almost encourages you to be evil, to do more damage while you can. Afterall you've got nothing but eternal punishment (Untill you finally lose and get destroyed. Yay oblivion) to look forward to either way, you might as well earn it. I don't even really need a Redemption ending, just something like a chance, if you did act good and since the original idea of the Immortality was to do great and previously unaccounted acts of good, why not give him a chance for redemption?

Afterall, he's ridiculously powerfull now. Why not let him earn his worth, fight in the Blood War for a time, get put somewhere, move across the planes and do good. Either Earn a place in the paradice he longed for or **** up and go back to the Blood War for all eternity like he spent, well, I dunno, COUNTLESS AGES TRYING TO AVOID ("Oop, nothing can change your destiny. You ****ed up long before you even got control, here's a maul go kill demons forever =D").

That's tangential, either way. I'm not arguing from a logic point of view, I do understand the ending. I'm simply saying I found it weak and it makes his entire time on the planes such a, waste. In the end nothing was achieved.
He's so smart makes no difference.
He's strong, makes no difference.
He's a legendary fighter, makes no difference.
He's as sneaky as they come, makes no difference.
He's worked with the greatest magics, makes no difference.
He did good, makes no difference.
He did evil, Oop Punished Forever =D.
etc

[Enlong]

Final. Fantasy. VI.

Also:

Secret. Of. Mana.

If you have not played these two games, you are missing out.

[Oregano]

I also like KOTOR 2, thought it was easily on par with the first one, shame about the ending though. I preferred being a useful class straight away.

Monster Hunters kind of like an RPG and is quote fun, I wouldn't dare say brilliant though.

[DeathQuaker]

I tried Neverwinter Nights 2 a few months ago, and really enjoyed it for a while ((SNIP)) Then came Ammon Jerro's Lair, and turned my admiration of the game developers into HATE, and I haven't really felt like playing it since.

My advice: forget the rest of the NWN2 OC and go purchase Mask of the Betrayer, the EP for NWN2. You don't need to be intimately familiar with the ending of the OC to play it. It is a very, very good game, and is full of the elements you appear to like. It is a difficult game--at least it was for me--it's an epic campaign and you're fighting off a curse that essentially limits your resting.

But the NPCs are very enjoyable (they were to me, at least). They managed to create characters with decent personalities--that you can still kill if you want. There's one bit of stupidity at the end which is avoidable:
just remember the Giant Floating Skull is bad and you should take care of him when you are alone with him and have the opportunity.

I found my character endings really, really good and appropriate for the kind of game I played.


((KOTOR II))I utterly, utterly detest whatever chuds created that disgrace of a sequel, but this post is long enough as it is.

They are the same people who made Fallout I and II, the PS2 Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance series, and were the people responsible for publishing Bioware's Baldur's Gate series and definitely had some input on them, so try to be a little gentle.

OH, and of course they also made Planescape: Torment, which I will also heartilly recommend along with everyone else.

I chalk KOTOR II up to this: Black Isle had fallen apart due to Interplay's implosion, and the folks in it were only just getting Obsidian up and running when they were working on KOTOR II. They needed some time to get back on their feet and they didn't have it. NWN2 and particularly Mask of the Betrayer showed to me they're definitely on their way back to the excellence they established when they were Black Isle. Heck, MotB is probably on my top list of favorite games, right up there with Baldur's Gate II and PS:T.

Other Suggestions:

I can't wholeheartedly recommend it, but Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura is a good RPG with some decent NPCs, though it's a little more on the Fallout (similar engine) end of things. It's a steampunk game; it has clunky interface and I have some personal issue with it that I consider to be misogynistic decisions made on the part of the devs (there can be women-hater characters in a world, fine, but when your PC defends herself when a man tries to take advantage of you, and your alignment swings to "Evil" as a result--that's a bad dev. decision). Nonetheless, there are still some interesting things going for it.

If you have a Playstation 2 and don't mind JRPG mechanics (and along with JRPG issues, probably needing a walkthrough for certain issues), I very, very much recommend the Suikoden series (there were 2 games for Playstation and 3 more for PS2, plus a "Tactics" spinoff). Very strong story with some extremely memorable NPCs. Also, it's a little different from a lot of other JRPGs as the "adventure and kill random encounters in turn-based combat" is only part of the gameplay; there's also some neat tactical battle scenarios and 1-on-1 combats which use a different mechanic, and some good minigames and challenges. But mostly, it's good for an innovative world and fun characters. My personal favorites are 3 and 5, and I find 4 is much better than the fanbois give it credit for (just remember the R2 button for overland travel in that game); YMMV. I'd say if you have to go for one, just play V -- it isn't intricately tied into any other plotline, has great characters, and a story with some neat political intrigues.

Plus, if one of the aspects of NWN2 you liked was stronghold management, you'll definitely have a lot of that in this series.

[Tom_Violence]

2 things to Jube:

i) You can raise all your party members without being a mage. In fact, you don't need to be a mage for anything necessary story-wise in the game. All it gives you are a few more tiny little conversation bits (e.g. with Ravel etc.), and of course the spells which are pretty cool in that game.
ii) I was always under the impression that The Nameless One going to the Blood War wasn't a forever and ever and ever thing, but rather a kind of purgatory where he has to 'work off' all the evil that's left over. It is a redemption ending of sorts, it just doesn't perhaps have the immediate slate-wiping that you might be looking for.

[Jeivar]

I chalk KOTOR II up to this: Black Isle had fallen apart due to Interplay's implosion, and the folks in it were only just getting Obsidian up and running when they were working on KOTOR II. They needed some time to get back on their feet and they didn't have it.


Since you aren't the first one to bring this up, I suppose I should clarify: I don't hate KOTOR2 because of the gaping plotholes or overall incomplete state. I would have hated it anyway because of how the developers approached it. I hate that they had the sheer gall to go backwards and CHANGE the first one, and try to deny what it was all about. K1 had a very clever theme of corruption and how even the mighty and noble can fall, and a very powerful story of redemption. It also matches nicely with established Star Wars lore, that even the most well-intentioned Jedi can be corrupted, and that the Dark Side is a thing of utter evil and toying with it can only lead to disaster. The Yuthura character was also a great example of this.
And yes, I'm going with the Lightside ending, since in the Darkside ending Revan has an endless fleet of ships, his own tactical genius, Bastila's Battle Meditation, and has just crippled the Jedi Order and the Republic army. He's freaking invincible at that point, and will crush the Republic in short order.

Then along comes K2 and tries to hint that, nooo, Revan wasn't a corrupted, power-hungry, treacherous war criminal! Through his infinite wisdom and absolute grasp of right and wrong he concocted a plan to strengthen the Republic through war so it could stand against some great, outside enemy. He willingly embraced the Dark Side, betrayed and used those who trusted and adored him, caused the deaths of billions of innocent people and untold suffering, and had his fellow Jedi tortured until they succumbed to the Dark Side, the Star Wars equivalent of sending them to Hell. For a noble purpose. And at no point did he stop being a hero. Yeah.

The K2 devs really seem to have had a bizarre fetish for Revan, for not only is he apparently wiser and and more uncorruptable and more knowledgeable about the Force than Yoda, but he also was some kind of Force-demigod, judging by Kreia's comments. Well, why did the Terentateks, and Darth Bandon, and the Mandalorian raiders and Malak, and host of other characters kick my ass over and over until I finally beat them? In K1, Revan is at no point described as insanely powerful. What made him a great Jedi was his military genius, compassion, and personal charisma. Hearing him described as some invincible force of nature made me feel like all my battles and efforts in K1 were being marginalized.
And speaking of which: Part of the problem with K2 is that the devs try to have BOTH endings possible, rather than just the one that makes canonical sense. So whether Revan turned back to his old ways, betrayed and murdered loyal companions and retook his command of the wast Sith armada, or honestly sought redemption, fought for his beliefs and the fate of the galaxy, saved the woman who had taken pity and saved him when no one else would have, and puts a stop to a tyrannical war machine and saves the Order who raised him . . . TURNS OUT TO NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST!! Five years later the Jedi are all but extinct and the Republic is falling apart. Yay :smallfurious:

What a way to absolutely cheapen and crap all over an epic gameplaying experience.

I realize I may seem overly hysterical over this, but Knights of the Old Republic 1 holds a very special place in my heart. The game, and the computer I bought at the same time, were sort of my graduation gift to myself, and I enjoyed it and felt invested in the story like no other game before or since. Nothing is perfect, but the various elements of K1 came together to form a whole I found immensely satisfying. Seeing Revan standing at the reward ceremony, hailed as a returning and redeemed hero, with the fighters flying overhead, left me with a sense of joy that very few movies or books ever have. And as a little extra, the fanfics I wrote for KOTOR eventually led to me trying to start a career as a professional novelist, which may finally be coming true this year.

And K2 not only cheapens the accomplishments of the first one and is an unworthy follow-up, but messes with the whole point of K1 and therefore actually manages to retroactively damage it. That's why I compared it to a combination of Alien 3 and Highlander 2.

I suppose I could also rant about various other elements, such as the characters (hated Atton, Kreia and GOTO for various reasons) but I guess my point is made.

*Ahem*. I'll stop now. Thanks for the advice.

[Tom_Violence]

Lets have a quick crack at this, shall we? :smallsmile:



Then along comes K2 and tries to hint that, nooo, Revan wasn't a corrupted, power-hungry, treacherous war criminal! Through his infinite wisdom and absolute grasp of right and wrong he concocted a plan to strengthen the Republic through war so it could stand against some great, outside enemy. He willingly embraced the Dark Side, betrayed and used those who trusted and adored him, caused the deaths of billions of innocent people and untold suffering, and had his fellow Jedi tortured until they succumbed to the Dark Side, the Star Wars equivalent of sending them to Hell. For a noble purpose. And at no point did he stop being a hero. Yeah.

All I'll say to that really is that if you think someone is a hero despite them doing horrible things, then you've a strange idea of what a hero is.


The K2 devs really seem to have had a bizarre fetish for Revan, for not only is he apparently wiser and and more uncorruptable and more knowledgeable about the Force than Yoda, but he also was some kind of Force-demigod, judging by Kreia's comments. Well, why did the Terentateks, and Darth Bandon, and the Mandalorian raiders and Malak, and host of other characters kick my ass over and over until I finally beat them? In K1, Revan is at no point described as insanely powerful. What made him a great Jedi was his military genius, compassion, and personal charisma. Hearing him described as some invincible force of nature made me feel like all my battles and efforts in K1 were being marginalized.

I think the key comment here is 'judging by Kreia's comments'. She's a woman that's absolutely obsessed with Revan, and almost certainly embellishes his greatness to some degree, and she can't be trusted to give you the truth.


And speaking of which: Part of the problem with K2 is that the devs try to have BOTH endings possible, rather than just the one that makes canonical sense. So whether Revan turned back to his old ways, betrayed and murdered loyal companions and retook his command of the wast Sith armada, or honestly sought redemption, fought for his beliefs and the fate of the galaxy, saved the woman who had taken pity and saved him when no one else would have, and puts a stop to a tyrannical war machine and saves the Order who raised him . . . TURNS OUT TO NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST!! Five years later the Jedi are all but extinct and the Republic is falling apart. Yay :smallfurious:

That's pretty much how the first game leaves it anyway. Either way the Republic has taken an almighty beating and is on the brink of collapse. All KotOR2 did was say what Revan did next.

Basically, it seems that the reasons you hated the game were the reasons I loved it. It was a game that didn't hand you its plot on a plate for you to just devour in one go, but rather it showed you the world from a certain point of view, completely tainted by the stories that people tell you about it. It was a game that made you think about its characters and what their real agendas are. So no, I don't think it screwed with the previous game, but rather gave you a take on it that you had to sort out for yourself. And I love it for that. It made the plot something actually tangible, and the characters actually interesting, cos god knows KotOR1's characters were pretty bland (and to a large extent I think that goes for Revan too, sorry to say).

[DeathQuaker]

Since you aren't the first one to bring this up, I suppose I should clarify: I don't hate KOTOR2 because of the gaping plotholes or overall incomplete state. I would have hated it anyway because of how the developers approached it.

I was talking more on a broad level of unpreparedness, which includes not coming up with the best story possible (or perhaps not interpreting the original adventure in the best light... a danger when transfering one dev to another, even if Bioware and Obsidian have often been bedfellows).

Anyway, I understand why you don't like KOTORII--just pointing out that if you "utterly, utterly detest the chuds who made it" you are utterly detesting the people who brought you Baldur's Gate (in conjunction with Bioware) and Fallout, among many other very good games.

If I were to make a suggestion (and of course suggestions can be discarded) it would be not to utterly detest the people, as they are clearly capable of good stuff, but detest their performance in that particular situation. Which is completely understandable.

[Jube]

2 things to Jube:

i) You can raise all your party members without being a mage. In fact, you don't need to be a mage for anything necessary story-wise in the game. All it gives you are a few more tiny little conversation bits (e.g. with Ravel etc.), and of course the spells which are pretty cool in that game.
ii) I was always under the impression that The Nameless One going to the Blood War wasn't a forever and ever and ever thing, but rather a kind of purgatory where he has to 'work off' all the evil that's left over. It is a redemption ending of sorts, it just doesn't perhaps have the immediate slate-wiping that you might be looking for.


You misunderstand me, when I say "Be a Mage" what I really mean is "Have high int" which neither Fighter nor Thief tend to do.The 3 stats a Mage is most likely to have in Int, Wis and Char in that order. For a Fighter Str, Dex, Con for a Thief Dex Str Char . Least as far as I know, that's probably reasonably debatable.

Anyhow my point was to get any of the really good conversation pieces or the final good ending you need a lot->a truckload of Int/Wisdom. Which Mages have and others don't. Thus, "Hope you're a mage!".


That said I'd never looked at KoTOR II like that, hmm. I did find it kind'a stupid that they made Revan to be this kind'a ridiculously badass lord/mastermind but I really did like that the game (not horribly subtly) let you choose if Revan was a Man or a Woman, a Jedi or a Sith etc

And I really liked that both endings to 1 were considered possible, means we'll be able to play all 3 and have the same sense of continuanity. It might'a made more sense if they had assumed the light side ending, but hey.

I do agree with Tom though in that either way in KoTOR 1 the republic was in a perilous state and the only real difference between the endings was the number of Jedi left to fight for it.

Anyhow: I loved the independant bits of 2's story, the bits not connected to 1. Hearing about "The War" and Revan in the old days was cool. Finding your characters backstory and why he's called "The exile", finally going to the ruined planet that you yourself destroyed etc.

[tugrulbuyukisik]

ice wind dale 2
savage
warcraft 3 dota-allstars

la hack la hack le slash!

[Jeivar]

All I'll say to that really is that if you think someone is a hero despite them doing horrible things, then you've a strange idea of what a hero is.



Er, I was being sarcastic. Making a mocking impression of the dev's mindset.

[poleboy]

Jube:

I'll just spoiler the whole thing, easier that way...


I guess it's a matter of perspective. I can't make you like the ending, so let's leave that alone for now. As I've mentioned before, the way the game mechanics affect the story is sometimes confusing and arbitrary. And while it is unfortunate that you're unlikely to get the "good" ending playing a fighter, I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. The game has a few twists on the basic D&D template. Anyone who knows what xp means will feel tempted to put points into WIS, if nothing else to make your character higher level/stronger. I'm not sure if high WIS alone is enough to get the good ending, but it's a start at least. And since you can't actually die in the game (except a few places), high physical stats are much less important than they are in similar titles.
Anyway, I'll admit that the first time I played it, I got the worst ending, missed at least 5 or 6 areas, about half the sidequests and had no pretty much no idea what was going on when it was all over. I was mildly disappointed, because I had expected something else. When I picked up again a few years later however, I was amazed at how new and fresh everything seemed. I spent much more time on the game this time, since I was determined to make sense of all the things I missed the first time around.
Torment has been compared to a book often and that's how I see it as well. A good book with a complicated story and deep characters is likely to have more to offer when you re-read it. The same goes for this game. You simply have to play it at least twice (and preferably in different ways) to get what you want from it.

[Tom_Violence]

Er, I was being sarcastic. Making a mocking impression of the dev's mindset.

But the whole point of that mindset is to show you that some characters in the world had this very weird and contradictory view of Revan. He was no saint, he was exactly the kind of guy to cold-bloodedly boil a thousand babies to save a million more, but people (especially Kreia) see him through rose-tinted glasses. Basically, its very much intentional and the game is one that actively encourages you to be critical of its storyline as presented whilst you're playing it.

[Archonic Energy]

My advice: forget the rest of the NWN2 OC and go purchase Mask of the Betrayer, the EP for NWN2.
Seconded...


OH, and of course they also made Planescape: Torment, which I will also heartilly recommend along with everyone else.
heh... i've had too many conversations with you about this game...

OP, if you have to spend £100 to get it. DO IT! it's worth more than mere money!



I chalk KOTOR II up to this: Black Isle had fallen apart due to Interplay's implosion, and the folks in it were only just getting Obsidian up and running when they were working on KOTOR II. They needed some time to get back on their feet and they didn't have it. NWN2 and particularly Mask of the Betrayer showed to me they're definitely on their way back to the excellence they established when they were Black Isle. Heck, MotB is probably on my top list of favorite games, right up there with Baldur's Gate II and PS:T. linkie... (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/84427-Atari-Adds-Baldurs-Gate-Style-to-Neverwinter-Nights-Expansion)

i'm still waiting for the Planescape mod for NWN2... or even the BG remake that was being done...

[Dhavaer]

I can't wholeheartedly recommend it, but Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura is a good RPG with some decent NPCs, though it's a little more on the Fallout (similar engine) end of things. It's a steampunk game; it has clunky interface and I have some personal issue with it that I consider to be misogynistic decisions made on the part of the devs (there can be women-hater characters in a world, fine, but when your PC defends herself when a man tries to take advantage of you, and your alignment swings to "Evil" as a result--that's a bad dev. decision). Nonetheless, there are still some interesting things going for it.

I also recommend Arcanum if you can look past/ignore/not notice the huge galloping misogyny (oddly, because the game world is a Victoriana/Steampunk type place, you could justify most of the npcs not taking a female PC seriously. Its the fact that so many of them try to take sexual advantage of you that's so bizarre and annoying. Fortunately, most of this is unrelated to the main plot.).

The other problem with it is that it's very unbalanced. A character with either full magick (especially black/white necromancy, force and the travel one) or magick/combat (hint: temporal) can butcher their way through the game with more or less impunity. Tech characters will be faced with a long, hard slog.

Getting away from the flaws: the storyline is good, there's a good deal of interesting background information, and all the characters can be killed. Yes, every single NPC in the game is killable, and no matter how many you kill, it won't stop you progressing through the story. You can even complete the game in complete ignorance of the storyline if you really want (your character being in complete ignorance, that is. Pulling off a completely plotless win takes a lot of metagaming.)

[Holammer]

Kinda forgot about Arcanum. Good game, but its story wasn't the stuff of legends really. The part about women... Oddly enough female characters had this insanely overpowered selectable trait called "beauty pageant" or something similar that added lots of stats without taking away something unlike all the other traits. This feature can rev me up into nerd rage when I think about it :smallamused:

[Blayze]

Least as far as I know, that's probably reasonably debatable.

Here is the best way I've found to build up stats before meeting Ravel.

Start the game with 17 Int, 18 Wis and 13 Cha. It is important that you *never* raise Int with level-up points. Trust me on this. Hell, you don't even have to solo to reach level 12 before *that* point in the game, although if you do I bet you could reach level 13 or even 14 by that time. For this guide, you're aiming to get both specialisation bonuses from being a Mage.

To cut a long story short, you're aiming to become a Mage as quickly as possible, taking whatever stat bonuses you can from NPCs along the way. Armed with enough +Wis tattoos to always have it bumped it up to 25, eventually you want to have a natural score of 23 (So you only need to wear the +2 Wis tattoo). The other two points to take it up to a natural 25 can be gained from Sarossa and the level 12 Mage bonus.

It is important that you never raise Int naturally, as with tattoos and specialisation bonuses you'll reach 25 Int easily. You'll reach 18 from level 7 as a Mage, you already start out with access to a +2 tattoo (20), and level 12 not only gives you a +2 bonus but also gives you access to a *+3* tattoo, the highest stat gain from a tattoo I've seen thus far. That takes you to a perfect 25.

So yeah, spend your level-up points on +Wis and take whatever bonuses you can from NPCs (Including Sarossa) until you have a natural 24 and you're just waiting to reach level 12 as a Mage for the final point, then put the rest in Charisma. I believe it's possible to max out the "talky" stats by level 14, but I think I'd have to solo to do it before *the meeting* - Well, either that or using either the Tome o' Cheats or going through the Modron Maze enough times...

Other than that, I say *whatever* class you are in Torment, you *need* to max out Int, Wis and Cha, which means you need to start as you mean to go on. There's simply too much EXP to be gained from talking to warrant putting your points in the physical stats. Besides, the NPCs can more handle the ass-kicking - but can't help you with the talking.

[bobothegoat]

... and colorful NPC's to go with the action.

Mask of the Betrayer has the most colorful NPC of any RPG I've ever played. Anyone who has played it will know of which one I speak. :smallbiggrin:

Also, you can try looking on the NW Vault for some good modules too. Unfortunately, NWN2's mod scene is kind of slow right now. I'd recommend Harp & Chrysanthemum to you, but you need Mask of The Betrayer to play that one. If you get MotB, you should look it up though. It's fairly short, but it's also really good.

[Jube]

Other than that, I say *whatever* class you are in Torment, you *need* to max out Int, Wis and Cha, which means you need to start as you mean to go on. There's simply too much EXP to be gained from talking to warrant putting your points in the physical stats.

Which is the problem.

[Fri]

People who're disappointed with KOTOR 2 must read this.

Warning: It'll take some precious hour of your life. But quality assured

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531

Hell, actually I should make a topic just about that playthrough. I guess I will. There's no legal repercusion or anything for it, isn't it?

[Fri]

People who're disappointed with KOTOR 2 must read this.

Warning: It'll take some precious hour of your life. But quality assured

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531

Hell, actually I should make a topic just about that playthrough. I guess I will. There's no legal repercusion or anything for it, isn't it?

[Holammer]

Which is the problem.

Well, nothing stops you from rolling a character with maxed out physical stats and complete it that way. Maxing CHA/INT/WIS is great in Torment because it gives you lots of XP from dialogue options, but it's all wonderful dialogue that enriches the storyline. With enough of those stats you can literally talk an opponent out of existence. Sorta like talking the overseer into suicide in Fallout. Fallout stands as a great example as you could complete the game by conversation and diplomacy with a *minimum* of violence something that is rare in games today.

[Jube]

Well, nothing stops you from rolling a character with maxed out physical stats and complete it that way. Maxing CHA/INT/WIS is great in Torment because it gives you lots of XP from dialogue options, but it's all wonderful dialogue that enriches the storyline. With enough of those stats you can literally talk an opponent out of existence. Sorta like talking the overseer into suicide in Fallout. Fallout stands as a great example as you could complete the game by conversation and diplomacy with a *minimum* of violence something that is rare in games today.

It's all well and good but it's still unbalanced.

Melee must get those stats ontop of the melee ones a Mage only has to get those stats. My current character has 22 Wis, 20 Int, 16 Cha and something like 11 Con, 9 Str and 11 Dex. I've missed out on very very little by not having any Str/Dex (I can't grab people in the street and I had to whigne/beg to get the stuff from Luis).

It's all good to say that everyone should get Wis 'cause it benefits everyone, same with Char. But Int? And anytime you put a point in Wis/Int that's a point not spent making your character better at the class you wanted him to be (Fighter or Thief), it's all meta-Gaming "I wannna play a fighter this time. Better load up with Wis and Char!" <- Not a balanced process

[Inhuman Bot]

@ bob the goat: Colourful....? :smallconfused:
Oh. Ha. Ha. Ha. :smallannoyed:
I WAS going to say PS:T ut it's been said so that leaves, hm..

DS & gameboy

Mario and Luigi\Partners in time- It's funny, and being able to beat the game with no damage is cool

The world ends with you- The battles are confusing at the start, but after that, it's pure win. It's that simple.

When it comes out, dragonquests IV through VI are good too. I got a cheap Japanese import one from a friend, and It is worth a look

SNES:

If you have one, try to get your hands on:
Chrono trigger
Super mario RPG: legend of the seven stars
Mother
Earthbound
Mother 3- this one's Epic story deserves extra attenion

N64:

Paper mario is all that comes to mind and possibly
Ogre tactics and
Aydan chronicles: the first mage was okay

XBOX:
Star wars: Knights of the old republic- It's theeonly onn I can think of

Sega somethingorother:

Shining in the darkness (?)
The rest of the shining series is pretty good

PS2
Baldurs gate:DA 1 and 2- If you like Hack 'n' slash games (thanks for catching that deathquaker :smallredface:)
Kingdom hearts-I've never liked Final fantasy, but these games were fun. And, for the record, I did like Chain of memories. :smallredface:

Gamecube:

Baiten Kaitos
Tales of Symphonia
Phantasy Star online: Episode 1&2 +

PC:

The elder scrolls series
NWN series- Especially HoU, at least to me
Fable wasnt half bad
Icewind dale (Found it again!)
Diablo
Bladurs gate ( I liked shadows of amn especially so)
EDIT: Oh crap, I forgot Fallout! :smalleek:
I don't like bloody games, yet I've heard great things about this. I can't say personly, but most people I've talked to love this game.

Assorted systems

The Castlevania series is pretty good.

Is what comes to mind now.

[Inhuman Bot]

Oh, and I agree Jube.

I sat at my computer just staring thinking: "Wait. I played through as evil as possible before. I was a fighter and evil. 'good' Ending achived by making stat choices. Same stat choices (well, mental stats upped earlier), I was as good as possible. A mage. Ta-da, same ending. Not a word about what I did was different. I felt cheated.

[DeathQuaker]

Kinda forgot about Arcanum. Good game, but its story wasn't the stuff of legends really. The part about women... Oddly enough female characters had this insanely overpowered selectable trait called "beauty pageant" or something similar that added lots of stats without taking away something unlike all the other traits. This feature can rev me up into nerd rage when I think about it :smallamused:

And see, as a woman, the trait pisses me off because it reinforces the sexist idea that women can only be successful if they're pretty.

So we're both pissed off. Good job, Troika.

If I created a game (say, a mod for NWN2), where male characters could be most successful by sleeping around (including with other men) and had people constantly catcalling them, and their best abilities were all named things like, "Flirt" and "Pretty Boy," how typical RPG players would feel about it?



PS2
Baldurs gate 1 and 2- If you like Hack 'n' slash games


I feel the need to clarify/point out that you must mean the "Dark Alliance" series for PS2. Most people assume that if you say "Baldur's Gate I and II" without the "Dark Alliance," you're talking about the PC RPGs, which are very, very different and have no relation to BG:DA (though they're put out by the same people--some stupid licensing thing made them have to put the name "Baldur's Gate" on every D&D game they put out).

That said, BG:DA is certainly fun for a hack'n'slash D&D adventure, though you have very few joinables. Since the OP is looking for something with a lot of character strength, I probably wouldn't put it on the top of my recommendation list... though those games are fun (and a lot of the NPCs you chat with are amusing).

Re: Torment: Given that 1) The manual itself pretty strongly suggests the importance of the non-physical stats, and 2) even if you try to build up your non-physical stats high, you will still have more than enough opportunities to also give TNO massively powerful physical stats as well, I find the whole "these are the stats you should start with" issue fairly moot. You pay attention, you're going to be godly in ALL your stats.

And if you've chosen to play a wise character, you get the benefits of being wise. If you've chosen to play a strong character who isn't wise, you get the consequences of that decision (in which case is likely to be able to win an otherwise nearly impossible combat). If you play like a thug, you die like a thug, and I think that's FINE. You SHOULDN'T reap the benefits of being wise or charismatic if you chose not to play that way. Totally makes sense to me. You get other benefits--you just need to pay attention to what they are. Heck, you can go throug the thing playing as a total moron, and that has its own fun too.

[Dhavaer]

Kinda forgot about Arcanum. Good game, but its story wasn't the stuff of legends really. The part about women... Oddly enough female characters had this insanely overpowered selectable trait called "beauty pageant" or something similar that added lots of stats without taking away something unlike all the other traits. This feature can rev me up into nerd rage when I think about it :smallamused:

There were three traits that boosted your Beauty: Supermodel, Debutante and one I can't remember the name of. The first penalised your Intelligence and I think your Willpower, which made you poor at magick and tech. The second penalised your Strength and I think Constitution, and also boosted your Charisma. The Beauty bonus was minimal. The last one turned you into a Bride of Frankenstein type creature. Boosted Beauty, Intelligence, and I think Constitution or Strength. It had a lot of odd bonuses and penalties, including making you talk as if your Intelligence was very low.

But no, there's no trait that boosted Beauty and had no penalty, and Beauty wasn't a terribly useful statistic in any case.

[Tengu]

There were three traits that boosted your Beauty: Supermodel, Debutante and one I can't remember the name of. The first penalised your Intelligence and I think your Willpower, which made you poor at magick and tech. The second penalised your Strength and I think Constitution, and also boosted your Charisma. The Beauty bonus was minimal. The last one turned you into a Bride of Frankenstein type creature. Boosted Beauty, Intelligence, and I think Constitution or Strength. It had a lot of odd bonuses and penalties, including making you talk as if your Intelligence was very low.

But no, there's no trait that boosted Beauty and had no penalty, and Beauty wasn't a terribly useful statistic in any case.

There was also a Noble trait which boosted Charisma and Beauty, but lowered Strength, Dexterity and all combat abilities. Males could take it too, as well as a counterpart to Supermodel (it was probably named Dandy, but I'm not 100% sure) which boosted your Beauty in exchange for Strength and Stamina.

Arcanum is not a sexist game. Women are treated differently by some of the characters, but the game mechanics are not sexist.

[Jube]

Re: Torment: Given that 1) The manual itself pretty strongly suggests the importance of the non-physical stats, and 2) even if you try to build up your non-physical stats high, you will still have more than enough opportunities to also give TNO massively powerful physical stats as well, I find the whole "these are the stats you should start with" issue fairly moot. You pay attention, you're going to be godly in ALL your stats.

And if you've chosen to play a wise character, you get the benefits of being wise. If you've chosen to play a strong character who isn't wise, you get the consequences of that decision (in which case is likely to be able to win an otherwise nearly impossible combat). If you play like a thug, you die like a thug, and I think that's FINE. You SHOULDN'T reap the benefits of being wise or charismatic if you chose not to play that way. Totally makes sense to me. You get other benefits--you just need to pay attention to what they are. Heck, you can go throug the thing playing as a total moron, and that has its own fun too.

That would be fine if it were true or balanced, but it's neither.

For starters the idea that intelligence is linked to spell casting power has always been something I've been grudgingly accepting of. I don't tend to be a roleplayer but the idea that a non-Caster is basically a moron (Really low Int) while a Caster is a super genius has always grated on me. Sure you can be a Smart Warrior or a Cunning Thief but it's typically something you do aside from the stat values instead of because of them.

It's inbalanced because to be as good as a Mage a non Caster has to balance all the stats. Whereas a Mage simply needs Int, Wis and Char. Someone taking 6stats vs someone taking 3, c'mon that's not balanced. If I play a Fighter anytime I'm putting a point in Int I'm making my character weaker. He's not as strong as he could be. A Mage never has to make that choice.

Secondly it's not true because there is no benefit to being stronger or being more dexterous. The *only* difference that I know of is that you can catch a couple'a people trying to pick your pocket (does nothing) or you can steal the clothes from Luis (makes no difference, you can still get them as a caster). Compare that against the incredible benefits to loading your character up with Char/Int/Wis; not least of which that you get a real ending.

If there was a reason to be a fighter or a thief I wouldn't mind as much, but really they're superflous (Thief moreso). If you have to load your character up with Int/Char/Wis why not not just all the way and stop wasting points on Str, Dex or Con? I can win "almost impossible combat" as a fighter? When? A Mage is just as if not more powerfull, he gets more XP, he gets through conversations better. If anything being a Fighter makes me less likely to win.

I do like the idea that you can play as a wise character, I do like that you can talk your way out of situations or not be smart enough. But it does completely imbalance the game, there are harsh penalties for being anything except a Mage. The idea that you should just give your Fighter/Thief +Int and +Wis (And some +Char) is complete meta-Gaming and is why I said that you're unlikely to get the good ending if you didn't use a Walkthrough or Play a Mage.

[Holammer]

There were three traits that boosted your Beauty: Supermodel, Debutante and one I can't remember the name of. The first penalised your Intelligence and I think your Willpower, which made you poor at magick and tech. The second penalised your Strength and I think Constitution, and also boosted your Charisma. The Beauty bonus was minimal. The last one turned you into a Bride of Frankenstein type creature. Boosted Beauty, Intelligence, and I think Constitution or Strength. It had a lot of odd bonuses and penalties, including making you talk as if your Intelligence was very low.

But no, there's no trait that boosted Beauty and had no penalty, and Beauty wasn't a terribly useful statistic in any case.

The unbalanced (IMHO) trait was Debutante (+3 charisma +3 Beauty at the cost of -1 strenght and -1 dexterity). Found a full list here (http://www.gamebanshee.com/arcanum/optionaltraits.php#null).
I would like to argue that beauty was a very important stat in Arcanum. I always collected a special set of clothes I'd use before entering NPC interaction, a dress, or a costume with a top hat etc stuff with beauty stats. It's my play style I suppose, if I can talk an opponent into throwing himself on his sword because I present the option so beatifully I'll buy a beer to the designer any day :smalltongue:
Some of the traits on that list are hilarious, check out arsonist.

[DeathQuaker]

Arcanum is not a sexist game. Women are treated differently by some of the characters, but the game mechanics are not sexist.

I repeat/clarify: there is a part of the game--where you need to go if you want to complete several quests--where one of the obvious ways a woman can get in is if she grants a lecherous and obviously corrupt businessman sexual favors. If you refuse him, HE attacks YOU. When you kill him IN SELF DEFENSE, your alignment drops to EVIL, even if you were saintly beforehand. (And there is no way to otherwise talk him into getting the pass you need to get into the building--it's f*** him, steal from him (which also affects your alignment), or kill him).

THAT is not "setting sexism" -- that is a mechanical and misogynistic decision made on the part of the dev. If the game involved people talking down to a female character, believing she wasn't capable of great technological or magical knowledge; or offering to "protect her" from the monsters because she's too "weak" to do so, or saying, "Oh, you're one of those 'New Women' -- take yourself and your bloomers and bicycles somewhere else, we don't want you here," THAT would be appropriate to a Victorian style setting.

Expecting women to be whores and then telling the Player when they refuse that they're evil is NOT appropriate, not to any setting, not ever.

BTW, I have actually studied the women's movement and women's social roles in the Victorian age in depth as part of my getting my Master's Degree in English literature, and Arcanum's representation thereof is nothing close to it. Sure there's sexism (as we would phrase it looking back on the era), but not the particular brand of misogyny demonstrated multiple times in that game (or where there was that misogyny, there was a host of other attitudes as well NOT represented by the game). And oddly, this fictionalized Victoriana was lacking our reality's version of the feminist movement during that time (suffragettes and New Women. Yes they struggled, but they had a lot of support too). IMO, the devs were just using "oh, it's the setting's fault" as an excuse to be represent women as little more than sex objects, and I'm glad that company went under.

I'm sorry I brought it up. I'd forgotten the details of what had pissed me off until the discussion took off... there is a good story to the game, which makes the whole situation all the more sad.

But now I have thoroughly derailed the thread, and I sincerely apologize. Please go back to recommending good RPGs.

[poleboy]

If you can stomach very ugly 3D dungeons and are able to find it somewhere, Albion is a great RPG with a turn-based party system and a very original setting (weird medieval/sci-fi/alien jungle world). It's from the mid-90's and probably the first PC RPG I played.

[Jinura]

The Witcher ain't half bad either... If you can stand the nudity. Actully one of my favorite games.. I liked the story. Never finished it though :S

[Triaxx]

If I created a game (say, a mod for NWN2), where male characters could be most successful by sleeping around (including with other men) and had people constantly catcalling them, and their best abilities were all named things like, "Flirt" and "Pretty Boy," how typical RPG players would feel about it?

Sweet. I get to play a medieval Charlie Harper. :smallbiggrin:

[Dhavaer]

There was also a Noble trait which boosted Charisma and Beauty, but lowered Strength, Dexterity and all combat abilities. Males could take it too, as well as a counterpart to Supermodel (it was probably named Dandy, but I'm not 100% sure) which boosted your Beauty in exchange for Strength and Stamina.

That's the Dilletante trait. The male-Supermodel is Ladies' Man.


I repeat/clarify: there is a part of the game--where you need to go if you want to complete several quests--where one of the obvious ways a woman can get in is if she grants a lecherous and obviously corrupt businessman sexual favors. If you refuse him, HE attacks YOU. When you kill him IN SELF DEFENSE, your alignment drops to EVIL, even if you were saintly beforehand. (And there is no way to otherwise talk him into getting the pass you need to get into the building--it's f*** him, steal from him (which also affects your alignment), or kill him).

You can talk him into giving you the pass if you threaten him. I don't know how to get this option, though, I've only gotten it once. I'm fairly sure this doesn't make you evil, either.

Edit: The bit that really annoyed me was that killing the gnome at the end of the Ogre Island quest gave you evil points.

[Trazoi]

You can talk him into giving you the pass if you threaten him. I don't know how to get this option, though, I've only gotten it once. I'm fairly sure this doesn't make you evil, either.
A third option is to steal the pass off him. It doesn't make much sense for him to have a pass already in his inventory, but he does. I chose this option with my half-orc thief, given seduction was completely against her character (she had a charisma of 1, she didn't get on very well with other people)

Edit: Ah, I see steal was an option already explored. Whoops, didn't see that. I'll also add that I had the option of threatening with the other female character I played (a warrior mage elf).

But yeah, I did always find the Troika RPGs a bit disturbing when it came to the way the female characters were treated.


Edit: The bit that really annoyed me was that killing the gnome at the end of the Ogre Island quest gave you evil points.
Oh my, yes. I don't think I was alone in being royally annoyed that this quest, which involved the uncovering of a shocking crime against humanity (specifically involving horrific sexual exploitation of women, to continue the theme), had no proper resolution. And then they slam you with an evil rating for killing an obviously evil character. I've read about some players who went on a gnome killing spree after than, reputation be damned, and then quit the game in disgust.

[Cubey]

You brought up the same argument some time ago, I believe, DeathQuaker. And back then it was proved that the alignment drop is a mistake on the developer's part (not surprising, Arcanum is unpolished like hell), as the perv was supposed to be evil but has been mistakenly classified as a good NPC. So the game is sexist, not by decision but rather by oversight.
And I think you're overreacting in the part where you say that you turn EVIL no matter how good you were after killing one guy in self-defense. I recall Arcanum uses a point-based alignment system - you'd just suffer a hit to your "goodness" and that's all.

Anyway, Arcanum has plenty of flaws, intended or unintended sexism not being the worst of them. Between laughable imbalance between magic and tech (as in, you choose whether you want a cakewalk or a nightmare game) and snail-paced plot, the biggest one that turned me off was that the game is simply UGLY. I don't mean primitive graphics - I like Chrono Trigger and FF VI. Their graphics, while being very low-tech, have the charm in being aesthetically pleasing. Arcanum is as aesthetically pleasing as a donkey's behind. Or if you prefer, an ass's ass.


EDIT: No comments on the gnome quest though. I didn't manage to play the game that far. But still, what the hell is Arcanum doing in this thread? The OP looks for a good RPG and Arcanum is anything but one.

[Tengu]

That's the Dilletante trait. The male-Supermodel is Ladies' Man.


Ah. Stupid translation, making me guess how stuff was named in the original.



You can talk him into giving you the pass if you threaten him. I don't know how to get this option, though, I've only gotten it once. I'm fairly sure this doesn't make you evil, either.


I'm pretty sure there is an option of persuaiding him to give it to you if your skills are decent enough, too. And even if you don't go there, you don't miss much - only a single small sidequest.

I could be mistaken on both accounts, though. It's been ages since the last discussion when these points were mentioned and even longer since I played this game.


But still, what the hell is Arcanum doing in this thread? The OP looks for a good RPG and Arcanum is anything but one.

Touche.

[Trazoi]

Between laughable imbalance between magic and tech (as in, you choose whether you want a cakewalk or a nightmare game)
Actually, my half-orc thief was tech aligned in mechanics and explosives and was fairly effective. The mechanics wing helped with the thieving skills, and it was pretty easy to scavenge the materials for low level grenades. But I generally agree that it was much easier picking a good set of magic schools then going tech. It was part of the bigger flaw that the stat system was completely broken. I think they tried to make their own version of the SPECIAL system that worked so well in Fallout but somehow completely borked it up.

And good luck if you wanted to go down the charismatic non-violent route. You needed a crazy set of stats to even get decent at that, which didn't help with anything else, and by the time you got them you'd have screwed up all the diplomatic quests already.

Anyway, maybe I should leave this thread alone so it can get back to discussing less broken RPGs...

[Tom_Violence]

You brought up the same argument some time ago, I believe, DeathQuaker. And back then it was proved that the alignment drop is a mistake on the developer's part (not surprising, Arcanum is unpolished like hell), as the perv was supposed to be evil but has been mistakenly classified as a good NPC. So the game is sexist, not by decision but rather by oversight.

I agree with that. Troika's games were never exactly what one would feel comfortable calling 'finished products', so I think one can charitably assume than any problems, big or small, were more likely the result of bad design rather than them being bastards.

Still though, I maintain that Arcanum is an amazing game, with one of my favourite endings of all time in it. I'd recommend it to anyone with the ability to look past its flaws, or alternatively, download some of the numerous fan-made patches that are kicking about the internet.

Troika must really love their fans - Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire: Bloodlines both also got hugely patched up by the community after the company went bust. And I for one think its a shame that they went under. Sure, they're games needed a bit more work, but they were all excellent nonetheless. They were afterall designed by 3 of the main guys that brought us Fallout, and I think that people like that probably need all the support they can get to keep on making decent and original games.


And good luck if you wanted to go down the charismatic non-violent route. You needed a crazy set of stats to even get decent at that, which didn't help with anything else, and by the time you got them you'd have screwed up all the diplomatic quests already.

Actually, I never found getting the stats to be the hard thing about the charismatic route. Rather, the problem was that a completely non-violent approach was more or less impossible (not least of all because your character gained XP every time he or she hit an opponent), and then the real issue became trying to get anything useful out of the half a dozen or so NPCs you'd picked up, who invariably where about as useful as an upside-down quadriplegic whenever it came to an actual fight.

[Jube]

The Troika story is actually a really sad one, if you look into the history of the whole thing very little of the problems with the games seem to be their fault. They constantly tried to make ambitious projects that'd push gaming in new directions or even just implement sweet ideas. I don't think there's ever been a Troika game you could describe as bland.

Yet they didn't self publish and their publisher kept reducing deadlines and reducing deadlines. Then eventually just grabbing an unfinished product and shoving it out the door. They did it enough times that Troika got a reputation as being buggy and subsequently went outt'a business.

It's not all their publisher's fault obviously, their projects being as ambitious as they were probably went over budget and pushed even lax deadlines. Still, you can't help but wonder what Vampire or Arcanum could'a been without another few months in the oven. Enough time to actually be ready before the publishers grabbed em and shoved em on their way.

[Om]

I don't think there's ever been a Troika game you could describe as blandTemple of Elemental Evil. One of the few games (in any genre) that I got too bored with to finish

I like Troika and their games but honestly I have very little sympathy for the company. Having one product plagued by bugs is understandable but every game you release...? That's just bad project management. End of the day Troika released three games that were simply unplayable out of the box

[Lorn]

Bishop is actually the first Evil NPC I feel a shred of respect for, since at least he wasn't a frothing, obnoxious, brickheaded berserk moron who kicks every puppy he sees. He actually has a brain in that evil head of his. Granted, I detested Quara and that Gith cleric bored me to tears, but whatever, I just left them out of the fun. Then came Ammon Jerro's Lair, and turned my admiration of the game developers into HATE, and I haven't really felt like playing it since.
After finishing the Haven (not too hard, it can be done in a couple hours) you get to use Ammon instead of Shandra - he's like a much cooler version of Bishop, partially removes the need for the cleric, and even better, festers a deep hate towards the KoS. Plus, he comes with more than half-decent equipment :D

Anyway. It's not a point+click RPG, and the characters don't seem to have as much depth, but try the Elder Scrolls games - I've played Oblivion, and it's impossibly open-ended (to the extent that if you get bored, there's the easy to use mod maker to add more stuff) and Morrowind is generally rated fairly high.

If you can find a copy, you might want to try taking a look at Icewind Dale. It's ancient, based on a version of D&D (not sure which, think it's 1 or 2 - it's not 3.5, but I'm far from an expert) and while the graphics aren't so great compared to games nowadays (it WAS made in the 90s) it's a decent game. I never really got that far, first RPG I picked up - ever - and I got addicted to playing around with different characters, to the extent I got really bored at the start and began to exploit the kill character>take stuff>import him again>repeat bug. I've heard a few people say less than good things about it, but for the price you'd get it at I'd say it's OK. And the soundtrack's pretty good, if you can extract it...

[factotum]

Rather, the problem was that a completely non-violent approach was more or less impossible (not least of all because your character gained XP every time he or she hit an opponent)

That was one of the few things they got right in Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader. You could actually get up to 75% of the XP you would have got by killing a mob just by sneaking past it, so sneaky characters were viable, at least for the first half of the game. Just a pity they made it pretty much impossible to proceed beyond that point without killing everything that moved...