Question about invisible blades

[Pollip]

You know that crazy 'kill you with two daggers and nothing else' prestige class from the Complete Warrior? Invisible blades, they're called. Well, I'm dming a campaign, and one of my players really has his heart set on becoming an invisible blade, or at least he did until he read the feat requirements, and learned that invisible blades need both far shot and point blank shot in order to enter the class.

Isn't that weird? Why would a melee prestige class need two feats that only help characters who specialize in ranged combat? That's my player's and my thought, at least.

So, what should I do? My player wants me to just drop the feat requirements, but I'm afraid that that could grossly imbalance gameplay. Should I replace the feat requirements with two useful ones? Are they typos, simply to be ignored? Is there a reason for point blank and far shot that we hadn't thought of? Anyone who can help us out will be thanked gratuitously.

[DrowVampyre]

It was originally combined with master Thrower as one 10-level class, hence the ranged feat requirements. The author posted revised requirements for the 5 level one in the book somewhere, but I don't recall where exactly. If I remember right, you basically just drop the ranged feat requirements...there might've been some other changes, but I can't remember offhand.

[starwoof]

Well, you can throw daggers. I don't have my complete warrior with me so I can't look at the class, but if you disagree with the feats so much I think that you should just replace them with about equal feats.

[Pollip]

I was thinking about exchanging the point blank and far shot feats for two weapon fighting and two weapon defense. Does that sound balanced?

[starwoof]

Those seem logical for a class based on two fisting daggers to have anyway.:smalleek:

[Signmaker]

Well, at least if you intend to add Master Thrower to the mix, you get a knifing virtuoso. If they get close? Free Action Feint, Take 10 on bluff checks. If they stay at a distance? Sneaky Shot, Palm Throw, Weak Spot.

Up close, with a decent amount of Bluff-boosting, you can reliably Sneak Attack every turn. The Int bonus to AC is also useful, and full BAB progression is well worth it.

Seriously though, Master Thrower is a sneak-attacker's dream. Forget Str bonus to damage, Dex-Denied Touch attacks are the way to go. If you're in possession of Greater Invisibility, by 15th level (Which, if I recall, is the earliest you can finish the two classes) you can Full-Attack Two-Weapon Fighting (assuming you follow the tree) a total of 5 attacks with base attack +12/+12/+7/+7/+2, all of which are versus AC 10ish (Size, Deflect, Sacred, Profane, etc still apply), and all of which apply Sneak Attack. 5d6 for every shot... even assuming minimal optimization effort, you're looking at at least 20d6 sneak attack. Per round.

Of course, I could be wrong. Feel free to correct my data.

[Pollip]

Those seem logical for a class based on two fisting daggers to have anyway.:smalleek:

By that, do you mean that his character should already have both feats, and different ones should be picked? I tried to pick feats that were about as difficult to obtain as point blank and far shot. At this rate, he can enter the prestige class at 6th level. I dunno if that's way too early for a five-level prestige class.

Of course, he just thinks the feat requirements should be scrapped altogether.

[starwoof]

What I meant was that those should probably be the prerequisites for the prestige class that are listed in the book. 6th level is fine for a 5 level class, that is generally when characters enter a prestige class. Definitely don't just drop the feat requirements though. No sense giving players exactly what they want all the time.:smallwink:

[Pollip]

All right, everyone. Problem solved. These forums are magnificent.

As I promised, I give all of you my gratuitous thanks.

[sonofzeal]

Well, at least if you intend to add Master Thrower to the mix, you get a knifing virtuoso. If they get close? Free Action Feint, Take 10 on bluff checks. If they stay at a distance? Sneaky Shot, Palm Throw, Weak Spot.

Up close, with a decent amount of Bluff-boosting, you can reliably Sneak Attack every turn. The Int bonus to AC is also useful, and full BAB progression is well worth it.

Seriously though, Master Thrower is a sneak-attacker's dream. Forget Str bonus to damage, Dex-Denied Touch attacks are the way to go. If you're in possession of Greater Invisibility, by 15th level (Which, if I recall, is the earliest you can finish the two classes) you can Full-Attack Two-Weapon Fighting (assuming you follow the tree) a total of 5 attacks with base attack +12/+12/+7/+7/+2, all of which are versus AC 10ish (Size, Deflect, Sacred, Profane, etc still apply), and all of which apply Sneak Attack. 5d6 for every shot... even assuming minimal optimization effort, you're looking at at least 20d6 sneak attack. Per round.

Of course, I could be wrong. Feel free to correct my data.
Add in Rapid Shot (it's not like you aren't going to hit anyway) and Splitting, and you've got yourself a winning combination. For bonus points, pick up Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade for an extra 2d6 sneak per hit and dex-to-damage.

[Signmaker]

Add in Rapid Shot (it's not like you aren't going to hit anyway) and Splitting, and you've got yourself a winning combination. For bonus points, pick up Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade for an extra 2d6 sneak per hit and dex-to-damage.

I don't believe splitting works on knives. Even if it did, that's expensive.

[sonofzeal]

I don't believe splitting works on knives. Even if it did, that's expensive.
A +3 enhancement is admittedly expensive, but you have to admit it's one of the best ones out there (my other favorite being the Shadow one that bypasses all DR). I think you're right that it doesn't work on daggers though. :smallfrown:

[Person_Man]

FYI, here (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm) is the Invisible Blade that was was supposed to be published, directly from the writer's website. The WotC editorial staff chopped it up for some reason.

Not particularly good, IMO. But there you go.

Also, the Complete Warrior errata limits your Uncanny Feint ability to once per round. And Feinting only applies to your next attack. So your Sneak Attack only works for 1 attack per round (assuming that you're not also flanking or otherwise qualifying). This renders the Invisible Blade PrC useless.

This problem is fixed by the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark, which causes an enemy to be Flat Footed for 1 round if you deal damage the same round that you successfully Feint.

Or you could just skip this cruddy PrC entirely, and find something better to do. There are many other better Rogue options out there.

[sonofzeal]

Also, the Complete Warrior errata limits your Uncanny Feint ability to once per round. And Feinting only applies to your next attack. So your Sneak Attack only works for 1 attack per round (assuming that you're not also flanking or otherwise qualifying). This renders the Invisible Blade PrC useless.

This problem is fixed by the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark, which causes an enemy to be Flat Footed for 1 round if you deal damage the same round that you successfully Feint.

Or you could just skip this cruddy PrC entirely, and find something better to do. There are many other better Rogue options out there.
Or the problem is also fixed by DM fiat, if you're not obsessively compelled to follow every little tidbit of errata that comes out. Seriously, it's a stupid ruling and there's no good balance justification for it at that level.

btw, if you want to go with Feinting, then I highly recommend a +10 custom item of Bluff (obviously)... and Tattooes of Conceal Thoughts (50gp, +10 to Bluff for 1 hour). They've got to be one of the best bargains ever.

[Signmaker]

A +3 enhancement is admittedly expensive, but you have to admit it's one of the best ones out there (my other favorite being the Shadow one that bypasses all DR). I think you're right that it doesn't work on daggers though. :smallfrown:

Meaning +4 total enhancement. Per dagger. You're throwing HOW MANY again? This is where you pay 20,000 gp for some gloves from Faerun, to get the Returning enhancement on the ones you throw.

That's probably my biggest qualm with dagger throwing builds: It costs too much money. Either you stick to only Masterwork Daggers, and chuck em, or you try to give them all returning, but that's extremely expensive. Times like this make me consider Shuriken over Daggers, but that's only useful in PvP or fast campaigns.