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View Full Version : [4E Actual Play] Minions. Damn.



Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-09, 05:52 AM
A few weeks ago, I was a strident defender of the 4E Minions rules. I really liked the idea of weak opponents who you can take out relatively easily, without a lot of annoying bookkeeping.

Yesterday, I played through the beginning of Keep on the Shadowfell.

And damn it, the minion-bashers kind of have a point.

To start with, I want to say that I still like the Minion rules in *theory*, and as ever I think they can work really well, but I had real issues with the way that they worked in this scenario.

Umm ... obviously this post contains spoilers for Keep on the Shadowfell but only to the extent that it says "there are fights, they include low-level creatures appropriate for a first level party".

The chief objection to the Minions rules brought up by other players was that it seemed inconsistent that sometimes a particular creature would take one hit to kill, and sometimes it would take several. At the time my response was something along the lines of "but you don't know that in-character, and surely by the time you're fighting something as a Minion, it's going to be plausible to single-shot them by definition".

Ironically, I think the 4E Minion rules would work really well in 3E. If an Orc only has 7 Hit Points anyway, it's quite likely to go down in one blow whether it's a "Minion" or not. What I'd forgotten about was the fact that in 4E everything has far, far more Hit Points than it did in 3E.

The first encounter in KotS was with four Kobold Minions, two Kobold Dragonshields and a Kobold Slinger, and unfortunately we really *did* notice the fact that it took one hit to take out the Minions, while the non-minions stood there taking a massive, massive beating.

Now admittedly, part of this is a failure of imagination, I believe that the "minion" Kobolds were genuinely supposed to be less well armed and armoured, and partly it's probably just anti-kobold prejudice (the idea of a kobold being able to take multiple mace blows to the face without blinking is kind of weird).

Otherwise I really enjoyed it. It *was* very maps-and-minis heavy, but so is most of the 3.X I've been involved in. I just wish the regular enemies had fewer damned Hit Points.

Rattus
2008-06-09, 06:26 AM
Just a suggestion (since I haven't run KoSF yet) but have you thought about switching tactics with minions?

I haven't had a chance to try them in practice yet, but if you're worried that they're identified and going down too easily, consider the following suggestions:

1. Mix in 1-2 normal non-minion monsters that are indistinguishable from the minions. "Oh! That one took a hit and it's still standing! Now do I hit it again, or try a different one and see if that's a minion?"
2. Adjust tactics so that minions move in after the tougher monsters move it to start soaking up damage (I didn't say "tank the party", don't hurt me!) and let the minions do what they do best- jab from the sides/behind, since they're more glass canons than meatshields.

Did you find you got more done in combat? I've heard people moaning that 4e combat can take the hours 3e combat does, but I have a suspiscion that they're actually getting in at least twice as many turns in that same timeframe.

Looking forward to playing 4e myself! :smallbiggrin: *dribble*

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-09, 06:59 AM
Just a suggestion (since I haven't run KoSF yet) but have you thought about switching tactics with minions?

I haven't had a chance to try them in practice yet, but if you're worried that they're identified and going down too easily, consider the following suggestions:

It's not a question of identifying them and having them go down too easily, so much as there being too big a difference between "minon" (OHKO) and "low-level monster" (20+ HP)


1. Mix in 1-2 normal non-minion monsters that are indistinguishable from the minions. "Oh! That one took a hit and it's still standing! Now do I hit it again, or try a different one and see if that's a minion?"

Could work, but (a) I was actually playing this time, rather than GMing as is my custom and (b) the way Minions are set up, they *are* observably different from non-minions (there's a different entry for the Minion-version of monsters, and they have different names).


2. Adjust tactics so that minions move in after the tougher monsters move it to start soaking up damage (I didn't say "tank the party", don't hurt me!) and let the minions do what they do best- jab from the sides/behind, since they're more glass canons than meatshields.

That's interesting actually, and it might be a good idea. It feels a *bit* contrary to the ethos of minionhood though ("You, my trusted lieutenants, go protect the expendable mooks!").

I think the problem I have with the Minion Rules is that in most games you tend to have Minions/Mooks and Specific Named Enemies, whereas in 4E you have minions (as in servants of a more powerful entity) who are game mechanically Minions and minions who are game mechanically Soldiers/Lurkers/Brutes etc.


Did you find you got more done in combat? I've heard people moaning that 4e combat can take the hours 3e combat does, but I have a suspiscion that they're actually getting in at least twice as many turns in that same timeframe.

Difficult to tell, I've not actually played much 3.X (D&D isn't my RPG of choice, I'm running Dark Heresy atm). I certainly found it more *fun* than last time I played low-level D&D. Just having two slightly different at-will powers instead of "attack, or not" as your only options made a big difference.

Of course we were also new to the new rules, so we spent a long time looking stuff up, which skewed things.

I'm not sure how it'll pan out at higher levels. Since you don't actually get any more powerful at-wills I can see fights getting kind of long and frustrating at higher levels (although I suppose getting more Encounter Powers will make a difference).

Saph
2008-06-09, 08:20 AM
When I was playing Keep on the Shadowfell I just took it for granted that the guys in large numbers would be minions. It affects your tactics - once you know that one hit kills them, you stop using features like Hunter's Quarry and just focus on getting as many attack rolls as possible.

I've found so far that it's most efficient to attack enemies in ascending HP order - take out the minions first, then the normals, then the elites. After all the minions and one or two of the normals have gone down, then unless the PCs have taken crippling damage the battle is basically won - the enemies can still damage you, but they no longer have any realistic chance of winning.

- Saph

Tengu
2008-06-09, 08:24 AM
Now admittedly, part of this is a failure of imagination, I believe that the "minion" Kobolds were genuinely supposed to be less well armed and armoured, and partly it's probably just anti-kobold prejudice (the idea of a kobold being able to take multiple mace blows to the face without blinking is kind of weird).


Indeed. Look at MM page 167 and compare the kobold with a spear and the kobold with a sword. Which one looks like an elite soldier, and which one like a disposable mook?

Skyserpent
2008-06-09, 08:29 AM
When I was playing Keep on the Shadowfell I just took it for granted that the guys in large numbers would be minions. It affects your tactics - once you know that one hit kills them, you stop using features like Hunter's Quarry and just focus on getting as many attack rolls as possible.

I've found so far that it's most efficient to attack enemies in ascending HP order - take out the minions first, then the normals, then the elites. After all the minions and one or two of the normals have gone down, then unless the PCs have taken crippling damage the battle is basically won - the enemies can still damage you, but they no longer have any realistic chance of winning.

- Saph

Tactically yes, that is often a good order to go on, after all it's best to be able to shut down the high-damage minions before moving on to the bigger targets, however often you're forced to engage them en masse, a recent game had our party flanked by a bunch of minions and a pair of brutes. The Paladin and the Warlord held the brutes back while the minions slapped my Fighter around for a while. Minions can often be a dangerous encounter in their own right when they attack en masse and gain adjacency bonuses... It was a hell of an encounter... And everyone had fun! Long live short-lived minions!

E^G
2008-06-09, 08:37 AM
What I'd forgotten about was the fact that in 4E everything has far, far more Hit Points than it did in 3E.

It feels like playing Neverwinter Nights II where everything got double hit points.
The pacing and tactics all felt wrong until I edited the files to 1/2 everyone's hit points back down.

Honestly, I'm thinking playing 4e with 1/2 hitpoints might just make it 2x as good and less slug-festy. Lots of hp does buffer parties against messing up and getting killed off in one sloppy encounter (due to ambush, etc.), but it takes away a lot of the suspense I think and slows things down.

Neat thing is:
The time scale of status effects is so small (due to 55% save every turn) that 1/2ing hp shouldn't mess up most status effects too much; now the status effects are essentially doubled in duration. Also most hp regen is a %of max hp. There are still a few loose ends, but I'd really like to try a few games that way. (Need a good scout for intell ;)

Thoughts?

HidaTsuzua
2008-06-09, 08:45 AM
Minions are nice for lower levels, but are barely worth noting higher. They get creamed by the damage + status effect large ae power you're going to drop anyways on the bigger targets. You could keep them in their (far) separate group, then they're just a burst 5 away from being massacre. You'll have spare actions once you CC the rest of the fight. And even if the minion attacks go off they don't hurt that much.

A mean trick to do is the 20 level 1 minion ranged focus fire death squad. Have then attack whatever mage, warlock, or other low ac PC. The first volley alone could kill any first level character with low ac (15 or lower). The second volley likely will. Be sure to keep them in a box formation that's 2 squares between minions so what ae you get at that level really doesn't work. Odds are they won't win (especially if you have a decent AC ranged ranger), but they will kill a squishy or two before then. It's mean GM trick to do and loses effectiveness quickly.

Rattus
2008-06-09, 09:18 AM
At high levels, I guess they're purely there for the slaughter? Any burst that your wizard had to use clearing out a bunch of mooks is a power he didn't use on the BBEG/elites for a round, but it saves someone in your group taking 10d6 dmg from those minions in the next round, either as they attacked or someone tried to move past them.

As they're (apparantly) such easy creatures to run, I'm hoping they should be nice n easy to pull out of your DMs hat if for some reason you need to beef up an encounter (maybe you've massively underestimated the partys abilities). "Come, my minions! Crush the intruders!" followed by 50 kobolds pouring from the sides, while the BBEG makes a run for his escape route. :smallsmile:

As for minions being visibly different.. that's the first thing I'd mess with my players, and punish them for thinking they can metagame.

"ok, so because I've killed the one with a spear in one hit, all the spear-wielding ones are minions. Drop a fireball over there."
*kaboom*
"aah! Only a few of them died! And now the army of sword-weilders is splitting up out of fireball formation!