A few 4e questions.

[Enguhl]

I was just wondering a few things about 4e, since I don't have the books (and for now do not plan on getting them) I wanted to know some about stuff that is keeping me on the 'maybe' side of switching.

Minions - Do minions die in one hit no matter what, or does it have to be a damaging (or non-non-lethal) hit or something along those lines.

HP/Damage - From what I have seen/heard, you get a decent amount more HP, at least at first level. Have damages (for the most part) stayed the same or changed?

Daily/Encounter abilities - Are these similar to Tome of Battle, or different?

Healing surge - Like a free Cure Light potion? (basically)

Ranges - I've seen that ranges and whatnot are done in squares now, also that the rules have been simplified. Somehow I connected the two to range increments, are those still in or is there a set range?

Maybe a few more in a bit.

[Saph]

I was just wondering a few things about 4e, since I don't have the books (and for now do not plan on getting them) I wanted to know some about stuff that is keeping me on the 'maybe' side of switching.

Minions - Do minions die in one hit no matter what, or does it have to be a damaging (or non-non-lethal) hit or something along those lines.

Nope, any hit kills a minion.


HP/Damage - From what I have seen/heard, you get a decent amount more HP, at least at first level. Have damages (for the most part) stayed the same or changed?

They've changed - generally higher. Characters and monsters (except minions) require multiple hits to go down at low levels, and lots and lots of hits to go down at high levels.


Daily/Encounter abilities - Are these similar to Tome of Battle, or different?

Encounter abilities are similar to Tome of Battle. Daily abilities are similar to a wizard or cleric's memorised spell.


Healing surge - Like a free Cure Light potion? (basically)

No, it's more complicated than that. Healing surges are your healing 'reserve' - as long as you have them you can keep healing yourself, provided you have the chance. Most healing powers only allow you to spend a healing surge, so you're out of luck if you run out. However, this should very rarely happen if you have a cleric in the party.


Ranges - I've seen that ranges and whatnot are done in squares now, also that the rules have been simplified. Somehow I connected the two to range increments, are those still in or is there a set range?

Not quite sure what you're asking here. Powers generally have a range listed in their description (5 squares, or 10 squares, or whatever). You're either in range, or out of it. Ranged weapons have a 'Long Range' category that gives -2 to the attack roll, but that's all.

- Saph

[wodan46]

Surges heal 1/4 HP, more when triggered by a cleric. They can be used out of combat automatically by taking a 5 minute rest, and each character can trigger one of their own surges during combat by doing the second wind standard action, available once per encounter. Characters have at least 6+Con Mod healing surges, while Fighters have 9+Mod surges.

Interestingly, in 4e Healing Potions ALSO use up healing surges when used, and you must have surges left to use them. The lowest is 10 GP for a 10 HP heal, perfect to use if your Cleric gets himself knocked out.

[Telok]

Interestingly, in 4e Healing Potions ALSO use up healing surges when used, and you must have surges left to use them. The lowest is 10 GP for a 10 HP heal, perfect to use if your Cleric gets himself knocked out.

WTF? No, never mind. I don't want to know. We have the book floating around our group, I'll get to it eventually.

One question I do have is how the new game handles acrobatic and non-standard attacks. Jumping off a balcony, swinging across a chandelier, and dropping onto an enemy. Using high jump checks to grapple harpies in midair and bring them down to the rest of the party. That sort of thing, which I love to do a lot.

How well does 4e handle those?

[SamTheCleric]

Easily. One of the "Acrobatics" subskills is Acrobatic Stunt. That should cover all of your stunts.

Jump checks are your check result divided by 10 in squares for a horizontal jump (divide by 5 if you have a running start). Vertical are... different from that... and I havent memorized it yet.

[Saph]

WTF? No, never mind. I don't want to know. We have the book floating around our group, I'll get to it eventually.

One question I do have is how the new game handles acrobatic and non-standard attacks. Jumping off a balcony, swinging across a chandelier, and dropping onto an enemy. Using high jump checks to grapple harpies in midair and bring them down to the rest of the party. That sort of thing, which I love to do a lot.

How well does 4e handle those?

Depends on your DM. There's a table of 'standard' DCs for skill checks for stuff like this in the DMG, but it's completely up to the DM whether any skill check is graded as easy, hard, or impossible.

- Saph

[Indon]

One question I do have is how the new game handles acrobatic and non-standard attacks. Jumping off a balcony, swinging across a chandelier, and dropping onto an enemy. Using high jump checks to grapple harpies in midair and bring them down to the rest of the party. That sort of thing, which I love to do a lot.

How well does 4e handle those?

You make a skill check, you deal your damage. Not bad damage, but not _too_ good either.

And just so long as you never do anything that doesn't have to do with an adventuring skill in a combat or skill challenge, your DM doesn't have to completely wing it.

[cloneof]

Well... As there is topic up right here, could I ask a 4e question too? :smalleek:

I have read the Player`s handbooks rules couple of times, but still I cannot fill my character sheet completely. The places "basic attacks", "damage workspace" and "attack workspace". As with my bad english, I just can`t understand it, what I`m supposed to put there...

Please, help me decide should our party start using 4e rules.

[Starbuck_II]

Well... As there is topic up right here, could I ask a 4e question too? :smalleek:

I have read the Player`s handbooks rules couple of times, but still I cannot fill my character sheet completely. The places "basic attacks", "damage workspace" and "attack workspace". As with my bad english, I just can`t understand it, what I`m supposed to put there...

Please, help me decide should our party start using 4e rules.

A basic attack is like Long/shortsword, long/shortbow, etc weapon attacks.
These are used for attack pf opportunities, etc.

[GoC]

Nope, any hit kills a minion.
I asked this elsewhere but didn't get an answer: Does this mean the T-Rex now dies to one hit by a child commoner where previously it died only after an hour long battle with half the town (when it wasn't a minion)?

[Lycan 01]

What is a minion, anyway? Are they a normal enemy that you see in groups, or just a specific weak enemy, or what?



Btw, can you use the 3.5e stats for monsters in 4e? I only have enough money for the 4e PHB, and not the MM. But the D20srd site thing has a list of monsters, albiet in 3.5e form. Could I possibly use them, albiet with some tweaking? Or is the MM a must?

[KillianHawkeye]

@ GoC: No, because Minion status is not supposed to be absolute. It is relative to the creatures (usually the PCs) who are fighting it. Generally a Minion version of a creature should be used when the PCs are at a high enough level that it would really be that easy to kill. (This also assumes that the PCs are all the same level, I guess.)

So in the case of T-Rex vs. Commoners, it would not be appropriate to use a T-Rex Minion creature, since the T-Rex is the one who should be one-shotting the Commoners, not the other way around.

@ Lycan 01: It would take more than a little tweaking to convert monsters from 3.5 to 4e. Things have completely changed on the monster front. At least, it definitely wouldn't be a quick project. But maybe you could find somebody around here to help you? ::shrug::

[Lycan 01]

I guess I could ask somebody with 4e for the stats on a few critters, then... Or scrape together some money... I think I'll try the latter... *shrug*

[GoC]

@ GoC: No, because Minion status is not supposed to be absolute. It is relative to the creatures (usually the PCs) who are fighting it. Generally a Minion version of a creature should be used when the PCs are at a high enough level that it would really be that easy to kill. (This also assumes that the PCs are all the same level, I guess.)

So in the case of T-Rex vs. Commoners, it would not be appropriate to use a T-Rex Minion creature, since the T-Rex is the one who should be one-shotting the Commoners, not the other way around.

Let's say the party is fighting a mighty wizard who has created some dinosaurs. Some commoners have tagged along to help. Said commoners start killing T-Rexes.

Or say you've got a really weak AoE spell. This spell used to take them down after four hits and now it does it in one but it's effect against most other monsters hasn't changed.

[RTGoodman]

Let's say the party is fighting a mighty wizard who has created some dinosaurs. Some commoners have tagged along to help. Said commoners start killing T-Rexes.

Or say you've got a really weak AoE spell. This spell used to take them down after four hits and now it does it in one but it's effect against most other monsters hasn't changed.

Except, you know, that commoners aren't going to be able to even hit high-level Minions.

I don't see why people make such a big deal about minions and make absurd statements and situations like this (especially when they try to talk about throwing high-level minions against 1st level parties and the parties gaining a bunch of experience).

Look, minion just means that the monster may be dangerous to normal people, but the PCs, at higher levels, have much bigger things to worry about. They've been killing hobgoblins for years, so when there's a big group of 'em and their Ogre Warlord leader, they're much easier to dispatch. It's supposed to be cinematic and heroic, not realistic.

If for some reason you end up in your highly-improbable Commoner/dinosaur circumstances, then the DM is right to assume that the Commoners can't take one out and that the T-Rex kills some Commoners.

Heroes are different than normal people in 4E. The end.

[HeirToPendragon]

My DM and I have come to an agreement.

Minions are probably one of the best things WotC did.

In 3.5, the game was built around 4v1 combat. Minions throw that idea out the window. Now it's not uncommon for your 1st level party to fight 20 some goblins right off the bat and live through it perfectly fine.

Sure they die to one hit, but that's why you go to your jar of change, grab a handful, and throw them on the board as minion markers. The combat becomes actually exciting and dangerous but stoppable.

[TheEmerged]

So, I'm going through the Player's Handbook (the only book I have right now, pending further paychecks) working my way through my first attempt at character creation -- Bob the Human Wizard. Tim is such a cliche... ahem. I had several TCBR moments ("That can't be right..."). So help a brother out here and tell me I'm not nuts.

#1> If you're wearing light or no armor, you can now add your INT modifier to your AC if it's higher than your DEX modifier. Since Bob isn't interested in any DEX skills and is taking Orb mastery, it looks like the two points he initially put into DEX are wasted.

#2> Tell me I'm overlooking the rule about Wizards in anything but cloth. I can't find a spellcasting penalty for that anywhere. Granted, it's nowhere near as easy to pick up armor proficiencies you didn't start with now (ask me about my 3.0 psion with one level of psychic warrior sometime), which might be the balancing factor.

#3> Now, for selecting his initial feats I see 'Expanded Spellbook'. Now, I know that spellbooks were part of 3rd edition a lot of people ignored. However I can't find anything that says you can just copy spells willy-nilly into your spellbook now. As such this feat looks pretty close to required now.

#4> So Bob ends up with an INT of 18 (16 +2 from his race) and a Wisdom of 14. As such I'm looking down the feat list and "Initiate of the Faith" is looking pretty good. It'd give him another skill, and if I'm reading this right he could use the cleric's "Healing Word" power as his daily. Does he still have to memorize it, though? It looks to me like Bob should be able to memorize Sleep or Flaming Sphere, and then use Healing Word in a pinch instead if he needs to.

#5> Half Elf was one of the races I thought about making Bob. I noticed that one of their class abilities and a feat that requires their race give bonuses to allies within (range). Now, for the class ability I know it doesn't matter because the +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy wouldn't stack with +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy. It's the "Group Insight" feat (PHB pg 195) I'm curious about. As literally written, it would make him the slowest member of the group :P

#6> Ritual spells -- as I'm reading this, a wizard that burns a feat to learn Heal or a Cleric that burns a feat to learn Nature can learn every Ritual in the book.

Finally found some of the items I'd missed before (like the condition explanations on pg 277)...

[RTGoodman]

#2> Tell me I'm overlooking the rule about Wizards in anything but cloth. I can't find a spellcasting penalty for that anywhere. Granted, it's nowhere near as easy to pick up armor proficiencies you didn't start with now (ask me about my 3.0 psion with one level of psychic warrior sometime), which might be the balancing factor.

There's no penalty, but you're only proficient with Cloth. Of course, you get so many feats now, you can pick up better proficiency for nowhere near as big a cost.

Don't know about the rest, though.

[GoC]

Except, you know, that commoners aren't going to be able to even hit high-level Minions.
T-Rexes had very low AC in 3e and probably do in 4e. Even if they didn't there's still the elephant or some other monster with low AC (or it's 4e equivalent) for it's hp.


I don't see why people make such a big deal about minions and make absurd statements and situations like this (especially when they try to talk about throwing high-level minions against 1st level parties and the parties gaining a bunch of experience).
Am I talking about high-level minions vs. low-level parties? No.
Am I talking about a very unusual situation? Not in my experience.
Commoner was just an example taken to the extreme. What has actually happened is low level fighters in the town guard helping with BBEGs.


Look, minion just means that the monster may be dangerous to normal people, but the PCs, at higher levels, have much bigger things to worry about. They've been killing hobgoblins for years, so when there's a big group of 'em and their Ogre Warlord leader, they're much easier to dispatch. It's supposed to be cinematic and heroic, not realistic.
Scrap realistic, I want consistent. And D&D was meant to be versatile enough for numerous styles of play. If 4e is (as some people people claim) primarily a war game then consistency is everything.


If for some reason you end up in your highly-improbable Commoner/dinosaur circumstances, then the DM is right to assume that the Commoners can't take one out and that the T-Rex kills some Commoners.
If you have to houserule then something's wrong with the system.


Heroes are different than normal people in 4E. The end.
Heroes are different, monsters should be the same regardless of whether the hero is there or not.

Anyway this is getting really sidetracked. I simply want to understand what exactly the rules are when the PCs have allies far lower level than they are.

[TheEmerged]

There's no penalty, but you're only proficient with Cloth. Of course, you get so many feats now, you can pick up better proficiency for nowhere near as big a cost.

Don't know about the rest, though.

Emphasis mine. "Cost" might be relative. Before, one could pick up heavy armor proficiency just by spending one level as another class -- reference my experience as a 3.0 psion spending a single level of psychic warrior. But under 4.0 you can't 'spend the level', you'll have to burn the feat(s).

Then again, as some are arguing, there aren't as many desirable feats right now so burning one or two for this might be worthwhile. I expect that to change as more suppliments come out. Since the next step up (Hide) would require 13 Str and 13 Con (neither of which Bob has) only that first step matters.

[holywhippet]

Minions are meant to be something like a movie experience. When the evil mastermind yells "Get him/her/them" and army of minions descend upon the hero(es). These guys only take one good hit to put out of the fight. Maybe it's because they lack decent armour, maybe it's because they lack morale or drive so that getting hurt makes them give up. Whatever the reason, minions are cheap cannon fodder meant to try and wear you down.

Don't think they will go down just because you sneeze at them though. A bad attack roll won't kill them, and any attack that does damage on a miss won't kill them either.

[SadisticFishing]

Minions are absolutely realistic and consistent. What isn't realistic is hit points. T-rexes actually, from what I gathered in my 30 seconds of looking at the book, are neither minions nor in the book.

Abstract yourself from the concept that damage means physical wounds. The reason a minion dies in one hit is that a level 12 minion only has enough life to survive one hit from a level 12 party! That's the reason misses never kill a minion, half damage would NOT kill it. If you're sending a level 1 group against a level 12 minion, you are grossly misunderstanding the system, because a level 12 minion is NOT A MINION against a level 1 group - he's a level 8 non-minion.

4e is ALL about abstraction! It's a game! Not reality! When was the last time you hit someone, and thought "oh cool I did 10 damage!"?

Minions are the best thing in 4e, imho. Or at least top 3.

Edit: Yes, more about cinematic-ness-ity. If you've seen Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, et cetera, you know what a minion fight looks like. Orcs, Stormtroopers, those suited guys in The Protector - one hit takes em out, cuz you're just THAT much better. The commoners would not be, and use your DM judgement - can the commoner kill the T-Rex in one hit? THEN IT DOESN'T.

Also, a minion can represent someone who's too wussy to stay in a fight - even if one hit DOESN'T drop them, they run away and stop mattering to the rules.

[GoC]

Minions are absolutely realistic and consistent. What isn't realistic is hit points. T-rexes actually, from what I gathered in my 30 seconds of looking at the book, are neither minions nor in the book.

Abstract yourself from the concept that damage means physical wounds. The reason a minion dies in one hit is that a level 12 minion only has enough life to survive one hit from a level 12 party! That's the reason misses never kill a minion, half damage would NOT kill it. If you're sending a level 1 group against a level 12 minion, you are grossly misunderstanding the system, because a level 12 minion is NOT A MINION against a level 1 group - he's a level 8 non-minion.

4e is ALL about abstraction! It's a game! Not reality! When was the last time you hit someone, and thought "oh cool I did 10 damage!"?

Minions are the best thing in 4e, imho. Or at least top 3.

Edit: Yes, more about cinematic-ness-ity. If you've seen Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, et cetera, you know what a minion fight looks like. Orcs, Stormtroopers, those suited guys in The Protector - one hit takes em out, cuz you're just THAT much better. The commoners would not be, and use your DM judgement - can the commoner kill the T-Rex in one hit? THEN IT DOESN'T.

Also, a minion can represent someone who's too wussy to stay in a fight - even if one hit DOESN'T drop them, they run away and stop mattering to the rules.

That doesn't address the scenario I outlined at all.

[SadisticFishing]

That doesn't address the scenario I outlined at all.

No, but the DM should. Which is what I said.

[TheOOB]

So, I'm going through the Player's Handbook (the only book I have right now, pending further paychecks) working my way through my first attempt at character creation -- Bob the Human Wizard. Tim is such a cliche... ahem. I had several TCBR moments ("That can't be right..."). So help a brother out here and tell me I'm not nuts.

#1> If you're wearing light or no armor, you can now add your INT modifier to your AC if it's higher than your DEX modifier. Since Bob isn't interested in any DEX skills and is taking Orb mastery, it looks like the two points he initially put into DEX are wasted.

Not wasted, just not optimized. Your dex still applies to non-magical ranged attacks and dex based skills and checks(acrobatics at least will come up sometime, as will stealth, and attribute bonuses acually mean something on skills, trained or no). Not to mention that there are some feats you may very well want that have a dex prerequisite.


#2> Tell me I'm overlooking the rule about Wizards in anything but cloth. I can't find a spellcasting penalty for that anywhere. Granted, it's nowhere near as easy to pick up armor proficiencies you didn't start with now (ask me about my 3.0 psion with one level of psychic warrior sometime), which might be the balancing factor.

If you spend the feats to learn higher armor levels, you can wear the armor with no penalty(other then the armor would normally have of course). Wizards don't normally have as much need for AC as other classes, and some of the better mage armor enchantments will most likely be cloth exclusive(there isn't a great deal now, but their will be), but if you want the AC, take the feats.


#3> Now, for selecting his initial feats I see 'Expanded Spellbook'. Now, I know that spellbooks were part of 3rd edition a lot of people ignored. However I can't find anything that says you can just copy spells willy-nilly into your spellbook now. As such this feat looks pretty close to required now.

It's a useful feat, but hardly required. You have a strictly limited number of spells in your book, but you can still only prepare a few any given day. If you like having more utility and daily spells to choose from, go ahead, but keep in mind most of the out of combat spells that you used to fill up your spellbook are rituals now.


#4> So Bob ends up with an INT of 18 (16 +2 from his race) and a Wisdom of 14. As such I'm looking down the feat list and "Initiate of the Faith" is looking pretty good. It'd give him another skill, and if I'm reading this right he could use the cleric's "Healing Word" power as his daily. Does he still have to memorize it, though? It looks to me like Bob should be able to memorize Sleep or Flaming Sphere, and then use Healing Word in a pinch instead if he needs to.

You are reading it wrong, you get the ability to use healing word once per day, it doesn't interfere with your wizard powers at all. When all is said and done, the multiclass feats are very good and almost every character will end up taking one(for the power and the skill). Whether or not you take the power swap feats is up to you though.


#5> Half Elf was one of the races I thought about making Bob. I noticed that one of their class abilities and a feat that requires their race give bonuses to allies within (range). Now, for the class ability I know it doesn't matter because the +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy wouldn't stack with +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy. It's the "Group Insight" feat (PHB pg 195) I'm curious about. As literally written, it would make him the slowest member of the group :P

The feat gives allies a bonus, and not you(which by the way, is why the group diplomacy doesn't give you a bonus. All bonuses stack now, except those that come from the same source. So two power bonuses stack unless they are from the same power). Check pg 57 for the target rules.


#6> Ritual spells -- as I'm reading this, a wizard that burns a feat to learn Heal or a Cleric that burns a feat to learn Nature can learn every Ritual in the book.

Yup, pretty much, as long as you have the money and the feats, any class can learn any ritual. Wizards are certainly best at it, but your group isn't screwed ritual wise if you don't have a wizard.

[Draz74]

If you spend the feats to learn higher armor levels, you can wear the armor with no penalty(other then the armor would normally have of course). Wizards don't normally have as much need for AC as other classes, and some of the better mage armor enchantments will most likely be cloth exclusive(there isn't a great deal now, but their will be), but if you want the AC, take the feats.
All of which seems much less strange if you played with Psionics before and knew that a pureclass Psion worked the same way. Spend the feats, use the armor with no penalty. Not exactly broken.


It's a useful feat, but hardly required. You have a strictly limited number of spells in your book, but you can still only prepare a few any given day. If you like having more utility and daily spells to choose from, go ahead, but keep in mind most of the out of combat spells that you used to fill up your spellbook are rituals now.
And the rituals are now the way to keep the "archiving wizard who goes about constantly collecting new spells" archetype alive.


When all is said and done, the multiclass feats are very good and almost every character will end up taking one(for the power and the skill). Whether or not you take the power swap feats is up to you though.
Good to hear -- that's the feeling I've been getting for a while. People keep saying they expect to see or see a good mix of multiclass/non-multiclass characters in their parties, but I can't see how most optimized characters wouldn't want a multiclass feat, considering the general weakness/commonness of feats in 4e. I certainly expect most of my characters to multiclass. But then, I'm a special case -- I love skilled characters, so most of my characters will also be taking Skill Training at least once.


Yup, pretty much, as long as you have the money and the feats, any class can learn any ritual. Wizards are certainly best at it, but your group isn't screwed ritual wise if you don't have a wizard.
I so want to make a dumb fighter who hates combat magic but performs Rituals.

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind, a character with just the initiate feat isn't quite "A multiclass character", they are a wizard who can heal alittle, or a fighter who can backstab someone.

It's people who use the power swap feats and pick up other classes paragon paths that are heavy multi classers.

Theres nothing wrong with most characters having a little out of class ability.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That doesn't address the scenario I outlined at all.

Okay, you made me pull out my books.

Let's take your "commoner" to start with. MM calls this "human rabble" a Level 2 Minion. What? You don't want your pathetic strawman to be a minion? How about a Lackey then, a Level 7 Minion... no, still a minion. Well, since those are the guys-with-clubs you were thinking about (who can be brought down with one hit!) would you prefer bandits? They have HP at least, as Level 2 Skirmishers.

Now, let's put one of them against your low-AC-high-level-minion. We don't have many natural enemies, but how about Hill Giants? They're big, and had low AC (AC 20 in 3.5).

Well, Hill Giants are LV 13 Brutes, so I'll have to convert it to a minion. Leaving aside the fact that the DMG says you should use 4 minions to replace one monster, we'll just use one - he's 200 XP, by the way.

Now, let's say that for some reason, the PCs want to hire random bandits to assist them in hunting down a single Hill Giant Minion. Then yes, the bandits will have to hit AC 25 with their +6 Dagger throwing (since their +4 Mace attacking isn't going to cut it). So, provided they can get within 5 squares and roll a 19, yes they can kill a single Hill Giant Minion.

Hopefully, that Hill Giant Minion won't decide to chuck a rock (+15 v. AC) at their AC 16 from 8 squares away first - or from 16 squares at only +13.

But maybe ranged combat is unfair. How about these bandits fight Dire Bear Minions (Level 11 Brutes)? They still need to hit AC 25 and are attacked with +15 v. AC claws.

See how this is working? Minions are not what you think they are, and indeed, the whole darn game has changed.

4th Edition is actually a game that WotC put some thought into, and even if your DM is dumb enough to allow high-level PCs to drag along low-level NPCs on a monster hunt, and then throws a single minion encounter at you, that NPC is not going to have a ghost of a chance to make a difference, while the minion will chomp your NPCs for breakfast.

I hope that answers your questions - and indeed anyone else who was worried about minions "breaking the game" somehow.

PS - any attack that hits (even auto-hits) will take down minions. That's what they're for. Attacks that deal damage on a miss do not kill minions. Furthermore, Magic Missile is no longer an auto-hit attack, so don't start dreaming up 1st level NPC Mages that can nuke Dire Bear Minions.

EDIT:
@Lycan - so, Minions are designed to help you flesh out encounters, thematically, without making things boring for your PCs, or deadlier than you desired.

I think we've all seen what happens when you send an army of standard Orcs in 3.5 vs. a 10th level party. Fighter wades up into them and starts hacking away while even the wizard doesn't have to worry about more than 1-in-20 of the orc attacks getting through his AC. Boooooring.

But 10th level parties might want to take on an orcish army themselves, right? They're pretty epic, and it'd be a shame to just say "you kill the orcish army, and move on to the warchief with +3 Fullplate and a vorpal sword." And you certainly don't want to make the orcish army full of Orc 1 / Fighter 9s - they could take your party apart!

4th Edition gives you minions. They're just as strong, Defense and Attack wise, as the normal monster, but they die in a single solid hit. Maybe Orc Drudges (Level 4 minions) aren't going to phase your 10th level party, but they sure can fight Orc Warriors (Level 9 minions)!

These Orcs hit accurately (+14 v. AC) and hard (a constant 6 damage), but if you hit them once, they're down. No needs to worry about a given PC getting overwhelmed because they happen to roll low on damage, or for your wizard to have wasted that fireball on these mooks by rolling all ones! Now, when your wizard says "clear the room" they clear out... if he hits. Same thing with your fighter - cleave now actually lets you mow through minions like you always wanted to.

But those 6 HP per hit? You don't want to let those pin-pricks build up too much (10th level fighter will have around 80 HP, probably - 15 hits at +14 is pretty scary) but you also can plan the fight on those terms. It's delightfully cinematic without having the "cut scene" quality that previous massive battles had to have.

Makes sense?

[LurkerInPlayground]

So correct me if I'm wrong.

Did TheOOB just say that "Expanded Spellbook" actually allows wizards to swap out for a different set of daily/utility powers for that day?

That's pretty cool from a flavor standpoint. (And a bit of added versatility.)

[tyckspoon]

So correct me if I'm wrong.

Did TheOOB just say that "Expanded Spellbook" actually allows wizards to swap out for a different set of daily/utility powers for that day?

That's pretty cool from a flavor standpoint. (And a bit of added versatility.)

That's the default, actually. I think Expanded Spellbook just gives them more choices- eg, where a normal Wizard might have 2 Dailies and choose one to prepare each day, one with Expanded Spellbook would have 3 or 4 to pick from.

disclaimer: I don't have the books, so I'm posting from memory of what those who do have the books said.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's the default, actually. I think Expanded Spellbook just gives them more choices- eg, where a normal Wizard might have 2 Dailies and choose one to prepare each day, one with Expanded Spellbook would have 3 or 4 to pick from.

disclaimer: I don't have the books, so I'm posting from memory of what those who do have the books said.

Close. So, Wizards are the only versatile spellcaster left in D&D (barring future splatbooks). Nobody else is able to alter their "power choices" on a daily basis. No, not even clerics.

Spellbooks say that every time you gain access to a new Daily or Utility (typically a non-combat, or less-combat power) Power, you get to pick 2 off the power list. These go into your spellbook. Every day, you can pick one of the two in your spellbook to fill each Daily/Utility slot you have.

Expanded Spellbook allows you to pick 3 instead of 2. And it's retroactive - pick it up at 10th level, and you get an additional Daily/Utility in your spellbook for all your past levels too.

It's very nice if you want to be a Batman, but if you want to be Gishier, start off with Eladrin and begin adding Armor Feats when you can. Yes, you can now be a wizard in fullplate (at level 11, 10 if your human, but no sword). However, it takes 5 feats to do it, and you forgo a lot of nifty feats in the process.

And no, you can't just "multiclass" into fighter and magically know how to use every weapon and every armor. They fixed that too :smalltongue:

[cloneof]

I thought that Warlock could cast spells too.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I thought that Warlock could cast spells too.

Yep, but not swap them around. Warlocks, Priests, and Paladins all pick their "spells" when they level, and keep them. A Wizard can switch his spells between a small list every day.

Example (Daily Powers):
A LV 1 Warlock can choose one of four Daily Powers when he is created. Let's say he picks Dread Star. Every day, he can cast "Dread Star" once. Unless he goes through retraining or decides to swap it out at LV 2, he won't be able to cast "Curse of the Dark Dream" instead of "Dread Star."

A LV 1 Wizard can choose two of four Daily Powers. Let's say he chooses "Burning Hands" and "Sleep." On Monday morning, he decides to choose Burning Hands as his daily power. On Tuesday morning he can decide to take Burning Hands again for that day too, or he can choose "Sleep."

Nobody else (yet) can do this. Cleric work just like Warlocks in this respect, as do Paladins and everyone else.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Expanded Spellbook. See, the flexibility is why I said it was "pretty close to required". Good to know Bob's Healing Word is on a completely seperate slot, btw.

See, most classes know exactly 1 1st-level daily. That's the only one they know and can use. The only way to change it is with the retraining rules when they level up (still wrapping my brain around this aspect).

A wizard has a spellbook. By default, they have two 1st level dailies in this spellbook -- in Bob's case, it's Sleep and Flaming Sphere. Each day, Bob has to decide to "memorize" either Sleep or Flaming Sphere. He can then use the memorized power once that day.

Incidentally, when Bob gets to 5th level he'll still be memorizing either Sleep, Flaming Sphere, or whatever power he picks up when he takes Expanded Spellbook. Just because he'll then be able to memorize 2 dailies, one will have to be 1st level and one will be 5th level just like every other class. Wizards like Bob will just be able to choose a selection of 1st level powers for their 1st level power, and a selection of 5th level powers for their 5th level spot, and so forth.

And before anybody protests that last paragraph, you oughta see some of the discussions about that on the official forums. Apparently the confusion is due to people like me that only have the PHB, there's a chart in the DMG that is supposed to make it a lot clearer.