3.7/4.2 Waiting Room

[Nonanonymous]

One part joke, one part possible launching pad for various collaborative homebrew projects to fix what's wrong with either edition, and one part place to simply discuss what you find sternly disagreeable about the new edition (or the old one). To begin with, I think the lack of penalties for the new races kind of increases their sameness, though some might argue that it keeps them from being pigeonholed into a single class.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, penalties should apply...and Tieflings shouldn't be Charismatic...

[Xyk]

Yeah, penalties should apply...and Tieflings shouldn't be Charismatic...

Agreed, those things are nasty. Also they had a charisma penalty in 3.5.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well lets see, 3.7 status report:
Barbarian: Concept
Bard: Beta
Cleric: Concept
Druid: Concept
Fighter: Concept/Pre-Alpha
Monk: Concept/Alpha
Paladin: Concept
Ranger: Concept
Rogue: Concept
Sorcerer: Early Beta
Wizard: Concept

Spells: Concept
Skills: Concept
Other Stuff: Semi Concept

Most of the classes in the concept stage will be pretty easy to bring to at least Beta, I just have to go and pull stuff from ToB and then do some tweaking. Same with casters except there I am pulling from the XPH mostly, spells are where a lot of time will be spent.

The skill list is going to be reduced; Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Gather Information are all going to become one skill, for example. Same with Tumble and Balance, Spot and Listen, Hide and Move Silently, and a few others. Expect the skill list to end up roughly halved, skill points will be reduced a similar amount to keep balance.

[SurlySeraph]

3.75: Nerf all the spells. Not the casting classes, the spells; doing this fixes UMD at the same time. Like, maybe halve the rate at which they improve with caster level.

[Emperor Tippy]

3.75: Nerf all the spells. Not the casting classes, the spells; doing this fixes UMD at the same time. Like, maybe halve the rate at which they improve with caster level.

Nah, you don't nerf spells. You tweak spells. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Agreed, those things are nasty. Also they had a charisma penalty in 3.5.
I know, and it made sense. Only a limited amount of people think things become sexier if you add horns and red skin to them. Tieflings are evil stereotyped, and people shouldn't like them because of that.

[Worira]

Only a limited amount of people think septuagenarians are sexier than people in their twenties, yet venerable people get +3 to their charisma.

[Solo]

3.75: Nerf all the spells. Not the casting classes, the spells; doing this fixes UMD at the same time. Like, maybe halve the rate at which they improve with caster level.

The word Psionics comes to mind.

[Nonah_Me]

Charisma doesn't just mean good looks. It also represents one's force of personality. Since the new Tieflings are the remainders of an empire, one would figure they have plenty of self-worth and esteem.

[Fridesgerte]

Re 3.5 skills, I agree with many suggestions for consolidating them, but not spot and listen. I think the ability to listen at a door, for example, is very different from the ability to spot and identify adversaries from a distance. I think a character should be able to emphasize one over the other, and not just have a skill called "perception."

But then, I'm also one of the people who think Fighters shouldn't have to multiclass or jump through hoops to get spot and listen as class skills, either.

[Solo]

Charisma doesn't just mean good looks. It also represents one's force of personality. Since the new Tieflings are the remainders of an empire, one would figure they have plenty of self-worth and esteem.

Does that mean if I put ranks into Profession: Therapist I can go around giving people +2 to CHA after a good session?

[RiOrius]

Charisma doesn't just mean good looks. It also represents one's force of personality. Since the new Tieflings are the remainders of an empire, one would figure they have plenty of self-worth and esteem.

In fact, in 4.0 Charisma doesn't mean good looks at all--it only represents "force of personality, persuasiveness and leadership."

[Xuincherguixe]

Does that mean if I put ranks into Profession: Therapist I can go around giving people +2 to CHA after a good session?

A good session? No. 40 of them, maybe.

[LordOfNarf]

Charisma has never had anything to do with looks, I know plenty of people who look good and can't convince anyone of anything because they lack social skills, while one of my best friends in nothing special to look at, but is the most convincing, manipulative people I know. Both of these cases are because of their self esteem, not their external appearance, so a Tifeling should be rather full of themselves.

[TempusCCK]

For 3.75, let's go ahead and add ritual magic to the batch, I think that's a pretty sweet concept. Something like taking a feat to add a number of ritual spells equal to your INT mod, and you can take any spell as a ritual spell as long as your INT score equals the spell level +10. Requires any components from the spell list and a minute per spell level casting time for a ritual spell.

[FoE]

For examples of good looks not being synonymous with charisma, see: most world leaders. :smalltongue:

And who says tieflings aren't sexy? Have you ever dated a girl with a tail? (http://ah.indolents.com/comic/38) :smallwink:

[TheOOB]

Tieflings bargained with devils to gain the power necessary to control a vast empire, I imagine gaining a certain force of personality that makes it hard for people to ignore(or refuse) you was part of the deal.

[JGPyre]

This really isn't a bad idea. With the failures of 4.0 to provide some inspiration, I can definitely see the generation of an updated 3.5. I agree heavily with the earlier poster about nerfing/tweaking spells. Changing little things like that can bring many of the more mundane aspects of the world (not just combat) to life. For example, I erased the speak languages feat. It just didn't seem like something that magic should have been able to do in my mind.

I kindof like the idea of collapsing skills together. Though the total skill points for each class in the 3.5 system will have to be reduced. My calculations suspect that 1/lvl for Ftr/Clr and 5/lvl for rogue with other classes in between at intervals of 1 is the way to go. (Although arguably this will make rogues even more skilled than before.

The Listen/Spot = Perception bothered me a little at first, but my verdict on that is that the skill represents honing your ability to absorb details of your environment. It's difficult to train yourself to have not just excellent vision but excellent awareness in your field of vision while totally neglecting the sounds around you. It has let a lot of characters unfortunately in 3.5 to seem absolutely perceptionless with their eyes closed or their ears plugged.

I just think that if you're going to be the person that notices things, why would you be the person that sees stuff but doesn't hear stuff?

[Abardam]

Tieflings have charisma because warlocks need charisma, and it wouldn't make much sense if tieflings were bad at the class that, fluffwise, is the perfect match for them.

It sounds kind of circular at first, but, yeah, I think this is the reason.

[DigoDragon]

For D&D 3.5 I wanted to adjust the "DR n/Magic" to have a minimum enhancement bonus of the magic weapon needed to overcome the DR. Like say as an example you need a +1 per 5 points of DR. That would work out to...

DR 5/Magic requires a minimum +1 magic weapon
DR 10/Magic requires a minimum +2 magic weapon
DR 15/Magic requires a minimum +3 magic weapon...

You get the idea. My players want to try this, it could make for a challenge and the more powerful magic weapons feel a bit more iconic so that we don't have a repeat of the halfling accidently killing the big red dragon with a basic +1 dagger to the belly. :smallbiggrin:
Very anticlimatic.

[Zim]

The good folks at Paizo are working on a version of D&D based on the SRD for their Pathfinder Campaign Setting, called (surprisingly enough) Pathfinder RPG. It's got a lot of good fixes to many of the common complaints about 3.5 and some interesting new ideas for classes and races. It's the system I'm throwing my support behind.

[Kurald Galain]

Since the new Tieflings are the remainders of an empire, one would figure they have plenty of self-worth and esteem.

In fourth edition, every single race is the remainder of an empire. So, logically, everything in the entire world should get +4 to charisma.

[SeraphKast]

Also, prior to 3.x, Tieflings had a charisma bonus. 3.x is the odd kinda WTF moment for most people, not the other way around.

[black dragoon]

I like my 3.5 tiefers and Im keeping 'em. Seriously why is it that everthing ruled the multiverse at some point or another. It's a bit ridicuolous for my tastes. I personally think they should have tried revising 3.5 byy giving the classes multiple branches like D20 modern. Which is honestly my poison of choice. Talents allow for a certain amount of flexibilty and make for interesting character options. That and mabye weapon group feats I really think that makes more since than just giving you proficiency with everything if you're a fighter.

[Solo]

In fourth edition, every single race is the remainder of an empire. So, logically, everything in the entire world should get +4 to charisma.

And everyones the "last something or other".

You can't swing a dead kobold without hitting some last scion of a dying race.

[black dragoon]

I really think they took the PC's being special to far they really ruined the internal consistency and made it effectivley rather a silly thing to play.

[Cainen]

For D&D 3.5 I wanted to adjust the "DR n/Magic" to have a minimum enhancement bonus of the magic weapon needed to overcome the DR. Like say as an example you need a +1 per 5 points of DR. That would work out to...

DR 5/Magic requires a minimum +1 magic weapon
DR 10/Magic requires a minimum +2 magic weapon
DR 15/Magic requires a minimum +3 magic weapon...

You get the idea. My players want to try this, it could make for a challenge and the more powerful magic weapons feel a bit more iconic so that we don't have a repeat of the halfling accidently killing the big red dragon with a basic +1 dagger to the belly. :smallbiggrin:
Very anticlimatic.

...you do realize that this was how DR worked prior to 3.5, right?

[ghost_warlock]

Tieflings have charisma because warlocks need charisma, and it wouldn't make much sense if tieflings were bad at the class that, fluffwise, is the perfect match for them.

It sounds kind of circular at first, but, yeah, I think this is the reason.

And, yet, a case can be made that half-elves in 4e make for better infernal warlocks than tieflings. :smallconfused: Figure that one out for me, willya?

[Zim]

You can't swing a dead kobold without hitting some last scion of a dying race.

You aren't allowed to swing kobolds, living or dead. They're a protected species... what being the last decendants of a dying race and all. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Devilish powers draw from constitution, tieflings don't get con bonus. not that improbable, just a case of the two not synergizing. Not everything has to perfectly match its theme.

At least they are no worse than anyone else with the same Constitution. And maybe tieflings are wary of infernal pacts since they know how the last one turned out.

[Kurald Galain]

And, yet, a case can be made that half-elves in 4e make for better infernal warlocks than tieflings. :smallconfused: Figure that one out for me, willya?

One word: Pompey!

[Indon]

One frequent complaint about 4'th edition is that it scraps Craft/Profession/Perform - the rebuttal was that those skills were not very useful.

As such, I propose we collapse Craft and Perform into Profession. As in, you take a Profession skill, and you can make applicable Craft and Perform rolls for that profession, as well as make what is essentially applicable knowledge rolls (within reason).

Example: Profession (Blacksmith) would not only allow you access to Craft(Weaponsmith) and Craft(Armorsmith), but also crafting rolls for more mundane things such as horseshoes, chains, or manacles. It would also allow you what would essentially be knowledge rolls to, say, judge the quality of metalwork.

Anything that requires a Craft or Perform skill would now require an equivalent number of ranks in the corresponding Profession skill - so Perform(Singing) would now be Profession(Singer).

This might be slightly exploitable - Things like Profession(Dungeoneer) and Profession(Architect) might have to be denied by the DM, but aside from that, I think it would increase convenience, mechanical involvement of the skills, and be more logical ("Yes, I can work as a blacksmith... but I can't make weapons or armor...")

Thoughts?

[Fridesgerte]

The Listen/Spot = Perception bothered me a little at first, but my verdict on that is that the skill represents honing your ability to absorb details of your environment. It's difficult to train yourself to have not just excellent vision but excellent awareness in your field of vision while totally neglecting the sounds around you. It has let a lot of characters unfortunately in 3.5 to seem absolutely perceptionless with their eyes closed or their ears plugged.

I just think that if you're going to be the person that notices things, why would you be the person that sees stuff but doesn't hear stuff?

Because sight and hearing are two different senses. Just because you have good eyesight, why would you expect to have good hearing? I can totally understand someone who is better one than the other. In fact, focusing on one makes it more likely you would not notice something with the other sense.

For example, in RL, I find that when I am focused on a visual task, my hearing shuts down (why I can read easily in noisy surroundings), and when I concentrate on listening, my vision sort of cuts out (why it's good that I don't drive). It's even caused problems at the table, because I miss what people say if I'm mapping. I don't think I'm alone in this either.

Besides, I like the idea of a character chosing to emphasize one or the other. My Fighter has put points in listen (even though it's cc), because she wants to be able to listen at a door without having the rogue in the way. She doesn't care that much about spotting foes at a distance. That's what the ranger is for. She's also been blinded several times and Blind-fight and hearing are what kept her alive.

I think the difference is between a character who just has high Wisdom, and is perceptive of what's going on around them, and a character who has high ranks in spot or listen. Wisdom makes him better at both, but with separate skills he can focus on one sense or the other if he wants to.

On the other hand, I think it might make sense to combine spot and search.

[Eldariel]

As far as the skills go, I figured it may actually be worth expanding the skill list in some areas, like splitting up Survival á la 3.0 (because just needing one skill to get along in the wilderness and a dozen to just perform basic physicals makes no sense) and just giving all classes extreme increase in skillpoints.

Then you can focus partially on some part of certain skill, or fully study all aspects of it, and you've got the skillpoints to climb and jump while also knowing how to talk. Right now, I think 3.5 offers way too few skillpoints; in an average underworld, a rogue without high stats in: Bluff, Search, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Appraise, Sense Motive, Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) just isn't going to survive. And that's just the necessities without even talking about the ones you want for the game (note: you wouldn't train Appraise in a real game, but in an underworld, you better know the goods you're buying lest you sell them to someone who does and lose your life over it).

That's 12 skills, so a 16 Int Human Rogue can max them all. And we're talking about the regular underworld activities; not all Rogues can have 16 Int and yet they still seem to be alive (if you lack any of those, you just won't be for very long - Rogues are often opposed by other Rogues so you need all the 'offensive' skills and all the defensive ones for such an environment). And this is talking about the most skill-wealthy class in the game.

The simple reason nobody ever takes Forgery, Decipher Script, Professions, Climb et al. is that you can't afford them with the skill allotment. Making all "skill areas" cost approximately the same total, and giving all classes a huge bump in skillpoints would retain the customizability of 3.5e (I think that's what people love about it in the first place) while also giving you some points to put into the basic physical tasks without ****ing yourself over.

[DigoDragon]

...you do realize that this was how DR worked prior to 3.5, right?

Yup! I remember the old AD&D2e worked something to that effect. Never played 3.0 but I hear it was like that too. My group thinks 3.5 should have kept it. So we're bringing it back. :smallsmile:

Also, in response to Indon about collapsing Craft and Profession skills together, I can see the benefit. I don't think there was as much specialization back in the middle-ages with professions (An artist could also function as an architect in some circles). Perhaps a revised list can be made which would detail what can be accomplished with each new skill?

[Gavin Sage]

Because sight and hearing are two different senses. Just because you have good eyesight, why would you expect to have good hearing? I can totally understand someone who is better one than the other. In fact, focusing on one makes it more likely you would not notice something with the other sense.

For example, in RL, I find that when I am focused on a visual task, my hearing shuts down (why I can read easily in noisy surroundings), and when I concentrate on listening, my vision sort of cuts out (why it's good that I don't drive). It's even caused problems at the table, because I miss what people say if I'm mapping. I don't think I'm alone in this either.


I would say you've just made a stirring endorsement for Spot and Listen to be combined. Because you example demonstrates that awareness is mental as its where your focus is that determines what you percieve. Most people can't improve their senses (which is biological) but anyone can learn to pay attention. That's the idea behind Perception versus Spot and Listen.

Now you want to argue that say listening at a door while keeping an eye on the hall should invoke some sort of penalty to one or the either... that's a whole different thing butmore of a "DM's call" sort of issue.

[black dragoon]

?Why combine? IN RL I know my sight is better than my hearing and tend to look more than listen when a task is at hand. I don't percieve sounds like I see something. They are two toatally different skill-sets. Logically they I am really tempted to incorporate talents into the classes to give the whole customizable feeling a bit more strength.

[alexi]

Also, in response to Indon about collapsing Craft and Profession skills together, I can see the benefit. I don't think there was as much specialization back in the middle-ages with professions (An artist could also function as an architect in some circles). Perhaps a revised list can be made which would detail what can be accomplished with each new skill?

in the middle ages there was quite a bit of specialization. A blacksmith, armourer, swordsmith, and cutler were all governed by seperate guilds. A blacksmith would NOT know how to make a sword or armour, he could make a servicable knife but not a great one. Hell in the armourers proffesion you'd have planishers and dishers who could in a pinch do each others job (perhaps) but specialized in their own part of the craft.

The idea of the artist that could double as the architect really is part of the late period ideal of the renaissance man, a man who would be a master of the arts, sciences and martial skills.

[black dragoon]

Heck, Specialization is how we are. A tech guy never really learns anything outside of the particular area he's in a mechainc may know how to fix a car but have little to know idea how to fix something with a turbine engine. We even have names based around what we're skilled.

[Nonanonymous]

I would say you've just made a stirring endorsement for Spot and Listen to be combined. Because you example demonstrates that awareness is mental as its where your focus is that determines what you percieve. Most people can't improve their senses (which is biological) but anyone can learn to pay attention. That's the idea behind Perception versus Spot and Listen.

Now you want to argue that say listening at a door while keeping an eye on the hall should invoke some sort of penalty to one or the either... that's a whole different thing butmore of a "DM's call" sort of issue.

It might make sense for the players, but what about the monsters with excellent hearing and under-developed eyes? They'd by default be better at listen than spot.

[Chronicled]

It might make sense for the players, but what about the monsters with excellent hearing and under-developed eyes? They'd by default be better at listen than spot.

That's why you describe their successful Awareness/Perception/etc as hearing the party (when the PC's isn't high enough, of course), instead of as seeing them. Or you could describe it as smelling them, or whatever you'd prefer.

The d20 skill system has never been something I've liked; I'd almost go so far as to scrap the whole thing and start anew.

Some skills should surely be combined (Listen/Spot/Search, Hide/MS, Disable Device/Open Lock, some of the communications and athletics skills, perhaps even the Knowledges, and Use Rope), while others might be better off split into more groups (Survival was mentioned), and others removed or made useful (Craft, Profession; Perform for the usefulness factor--you earn a pittance even with epic checks).

If you want to show a PC better in a particular area of a skill, such as one who's eagle-eyed but has weak hearing, then each skill should have a version of the Traits found in Unearthed Arcana or another way to allow for some minor tweaking; in this case, you could take a -1/-2 penalty to Perception checks involving listening in exchange for a corresponding bonus to Perception checks involving sight.

Finally, the skill synergies should be reworked (or removed, if one is so inclined); currently they feel pretty random in determining why skills give a bonus, while others don't.

[DigoDragon]

The idea of the artist that could double as the architect really is part of the late period ideal of the renaissance man, a man who would be a master of the arts, sciences and martial skills.

Guess my time machine is off a couple hundred years. I'll get it serviced. :smalltongue: Okay so there's some specialization in the middle ages (Real world middle ages at least), I stand corrected. Though if such simplicity in craft skills works for one's game then go for it, right? :smallsmile:

Something I've worked on for my own campaigns has been changing a few races out, sorta like what 4e did. No one in my group had/has/will have a desire to play gnomes or half-orcs so I've replaced them. Instead of gnomes I have a cat race (*boo*), but for once it doesn't have a (*gasp*) Dex bonus. More sturdy like a dwarf with various craft bonuses, making them feel more like true tinkerers (*yay*). My players love this one.

For half-orc replacements I have a human-looking race, but with small dragon wings and a tail (Borrowed the wing idea from dragonborn of Races of the Dragon). Designed them after feudal Japan society. Quite fun to play an honorable warrior type. :smallsmile:

[Indon]

in the middle ages there was quite a bit of specialization. A blacksmith, armourer, swordsmith, and cutler were all governed by seperate guilds. A blacksmith would NOT know how to make a sword or armour, he could make a servicable knife but not a great one. Hell in the armourers proffesion you'd have planishers and dishers who could in a pinch do each others job (perhaps) but specialized in their own part of the craft.

The idea of the artist that could double as the architect really is part of the late period ideal of the renaissance man, a man who would be a master of the arts, sciences and martial skills.

Well, the collapsing would be part of a consolidation which also includes things like combining Listen and Spot, and Hide and Move Silently (which many D20 games already do with the Notice and Stealth skills).

Mind that combining Listen and Spot doesn't necessarily mean that your eyes and ears are equally good. Notice means noticing with any sense, even stuff not included under Listen/Spot, like scent.

[bosssmiley]

For D&D 3.5 I wanted to adjust the "DR n/Magic" to have a minimum enhancement bonus of the magic weapon needed to overcome the DR. Like say as an example you need a +1 per 5 points of DR. That would work out to...

DR 5/Magic requires a minimum +1 magic weapon
DR 10/Magic requires a minimum +2 magic weapon
DR 15/Magic requires a minimum +3 magic weapon...

You get the idea. My players want to try this, it could make for a challenge and the more powerful magic weapons feel a bit more iconic so that we don't have a repeat of the halfling accidently killing the big red dragon with a basic +1 dagger to the belly. :smallbiggrin:
Very anticlimatic.

How about each +1 to weapon enhancement completely ignoring 5 points of DR/magic as adamantine does hardness? Not quite 1st Ed's "+3 or better weapon to hit" (aka: 'You must be this tall to ride'), and not quite 3rd Ed's "any magic ignores DR/magic".

That means that big bruisers like dragons with DR 15/magic *still* have DR 10 against a guy with a +1 weapon (or magic weapon spell active), but that a +4 weapon goes through their hide like a knife through butter.

[DigoDragon]

How about each +1 to weapon enhancement completely ignoring 5 points of DR/magic as adamantine does hardness? Not quite 1st Ed's "+3 or better weapon to hit" (aka: 'You must be this tall to ride'), and not quite 3rd Ed's "any magic ignores DR/magic".

That's not a bad idea at all! A nice "middle of the road" idea. :smallsmile: I'll test this idea and see how it fairs with my group.

[black dragoon]

DR has always bothered me. Skills need rework and I agree with the idea of reworking several skills into new more useful groups and also seperate some such as survival... let's see skills that can be broken out of survival. Trapping, herbalism, shelter building, fire starting, there's alot floating around here yikes. Knowledges should be kept seperate in their general categories(architecture, biology, chemistry) etc. Also I like skill synergies.
that's my 2 cp.:smallbiggrin:

[nagora]

in the middle ages there was quite a bit of specialization. A blacksmith, armourer, swordsmith, and cutler were all governed by seperate guilds. A blacksmith would NOT know how to make a sword or armour, he could make a servicable knife but not a great one. Hell in the armourers proffesion you'd have planishers and dishers who could in a pinch do each others job (perhaps) but specialized in their own part of the craft.
This is very true. In most cases, the person you actually went to to get a sword made was the local hilt maker (not a profession that gets a lot of coverage here). They would then farm out parts of the work to three or four other specialists before doing the finishing off themselves and selling you the final product.

I'm not sure that this was the case in the Dark Ages, however, although weapons were correspondingly cruder then.

[Philistine]

Would "shelter building" and "fire starting" really need to be broken out into individual skills requiring point investments? I'd much prefer to see Survival broken out by terrain/environment types - Jungle Survival, Forest Survival, Arctic Survival, Desert Survival, and so on - rather than by breaking out every single basic task. IMO, at least, there's no way to make "starting fires" worthy of 23 skill points.

Appraise might also go into the same "lump" as Profession, Craft, and Perform - and only for items related to the character's specific profession. Or else go away entirely. Does it really make sense for any one person to know the value of everything, from paintings to sculpture to jewelry to weapons and armor? I wouldn't think so, myself.

[UserClone]

RE: The consolidation of skills

What do you guys think of Climb, Jump, and Swim rolled into Athletics, along with Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble being Acrobatics?

[NoDot]

A note on skills: the traditional characters in D&D are adventurers. Being a polymath is a good thing conductive to survival.

In other news, *shameless promotion* (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48452).

[JaxGaret]

On Perception vs. Listen/Spot: in 4e, it doesn't matter whether your character is good at seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, tasting, or sixth-sensing (all of which is covered by Perception). All that matters is whether you perceive the target.

Thus, a character with good hearing and bad eyesight and a second character with bad hearing and good eyesight will both be represented by a middling Perception score, which is represented by being Trained in the skill. A character with excellent eyesight, hearing, and who has trained themselves to be excellent at perceiving their surroundings (remember, if they have good eyesight but bad hearing or vice versa, they'll be less than stellar at perception, period), will be both Trained and have a feat that improves their Perception, such as Skill focus or Alertness.

So, basically, my argument is that Perception isn't simply Listen + Spot, it encompasses all the other aspects of Perception that were left out of the 3e skill set, like smell, taste, touch, and any other perception senses.

I know that some of the "other" perception senses were represented in 3e, like Blindsense. But there may be ones that weren't specifically covered. For example (and excuse my tangent here), IIRC I remember reading a science-fiction story once about intelligent creatures who lived on Jupiter who had mass-density-detection organs for perception. I think it was an Asimov story, in which the earth had sent a powerful robot to Jupiter to be a sort of ambassador/scout, and hilarity ensues. It may not have been Asimov, come to think. But I believe I have the other details correct :smallsmile:

[bosssmiley]

RE: The consolidation of skills

What do you guys think of Climb, Jump, and Swim rolled into Athletics, along with Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble being Acrobatics?

Yep, works for me. Tried it recently and it causes no significant problems in play. I presume you'd keep key skills as Dex for Acrobatics and Str for Athletics?

I kept Escape Artist separate from Acrobatics, and combined it with Rope Use instead. Lassoing, hog-tying and Houdini tricks all in the same skill might be a bit far for some tastes though. :smallamused:

Personal campaign: currently down to 20 skills (+ 9 fields of Knowledge) from the 36 (+ Crafts, Professions and 10 fields of Knowledge) in the SRD.
The players like it coz their skill points go further and their sheets are less crowded.
I like it coz it saves on NPC creation hassles.


A note on skills: the traditional characters in D&D are adventurers. Being a polymath is a good thing conductive to survival.

In other news, *shameless promotion* (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48452).

TNE: Temples, Sites, Ruins & Empires is a personal fave. :smallcool:

[LurkerInPlayground]

And, yet, a case can be made that half-elves in 4e make for better infernal warlocks than tieflings. :smallconfused: Figure that one out for me, willya?
Cultural inclination and natural ability are different things.

A peasant with 20 intelligence is not a wizard. It is very possible there are quite a number of them have never become wizards. They may become clerks, artisans or scholars.

It is also quite possible that intelligence may be a dump stat as far as some farmers are concerned. Book learnin' is no good when it comes time to bring in the crop. Remember, in a pseudo-Medieval setting, education may not play as strong a role in peasant society.

In your example, most half-elves are likely to think:
"Demon = Bad"

They might have the physical hardiness and stamina to be come ideal vessels for channeling supernatural powers, but they may not desire to make pacts. (Obviously.)

Besides, why make those pacts when a high Con gives you an exciting career as a heavy-lifter or perhaps, if you're lucky, an adventuring tank?

Of course, half-elves are the minority. So they are more likely to be disenfranchised and down on their luck. Thusly, they might be more likely targets for fey or demonic powers. Statistically more probable as candidates, for sure.

[StormingMarcus]

As far as concerns skills, I think there must be some collapsing (as many posters already noted), maybe not so much as in 4E, but quite like it.

If someone wants a more specialized version, we can make a system à la Vampires. You have Areas of Skills (Athletics, Survival, Knowledge, Persuasion...) and, within those areas, some narrow specialities (jump/swim/climb, religion/history/arcana, intimidate/diplomacy...).
You have, let's say 1 area point for every normal 2+Int skill points.
Then if you have 1 area point you can spend a number of skill points equal to the number of specialitiesm but you do not have to spend an equal amount on every one.

Example: Fighter has 1 area point. He spends it on Athletics. Then he has 3 skill points in athletics and he places 2 on jump and 1 on climb.

Please do not look at the numbers, I only made a brief example not thinking about math

[UserClone]

I would instead roll Use Rope into Sleight of Hand.

[Chronicled]

Personal campaign: currently down to 20 skills (+ 9 fields of Knowledge) from the 36 (+ Crafts, Professions and 10 fields of Knowledge) in the SRD.
The players like it coz their skill points go further and their sheets are less crowded.
I like it coz it saves on NPC creation hassles.

Which 20 did you end up with?


What do you guys think of Climb, Jump, and Swim rolled into Athletics, along with Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble being Acrobatics?

The only one that may be out of place is Escape Artist. I'd sooner make it a function of Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope, using whichever is more appropriate to how the character is bound.

Edit: Using the skill system from Iron Heroes would work wonders as well.

[bosssmiley]

Which 20 did you end up with?

Acrobatics (Balance, Jump, Tumble)
Appraise
Athletics (Climb, Run, Swim)
Bluff (inc. Intimidate)
Craft
Decipher Script
Diplomacy (per Rich's mod)
Disable Device (inc. Open Lock)
Disguise (inc. Forgery) - "I fake stuff good"
Escape Artist (inc. Use Rope)
Handle Animal (inc. Ride)
Knowledge (9 areas)
* Knowledge (Local) inc. Gather Information
* Knowledge (History) inc. Knowledge (Nobility & Heraldry)

Perception (Listen, Search, Spot) - "I notice stuff good"
Perform
Sense Motive
Speak Language
Spellcraft (inc. Concentration)
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand) - "I hide stuff good"
Survival (inc. Heal) - "I are self-sufficient"
UMD

I'm certain I'm missing one here. :smallconfused:
AFB, so will check later.

The useless points dump that was Profession simply doesn't exist any more. Your profession is a function of your skills and/or class abilities (stonemason = Craft (stoneworking), sailor = athletics & escape artist, professional wilderness guide = a level of ranger, etc). The PCs' current profession: adventurer. What were you before you became an adventurer? Make something up.

Additional house rules used:
All 2 skill point/lvl classes are upgraded to 4/lvl
Cross-class skills cost 1pt/rank, but max out as normal (1/2 class skills).
There is no such thing as a trained-only skill, just a bump of +10 to the DC if you have no ranks.
Skill synergy bonuses don't exist, but you can use Aid Another during skill attempts.

I hate the idea of people being ripped off character abilities, or stymied in progressing the plot, simply because a lack of bogus 'game mastery' lead them into sub-optimal skill picks.

[Kizara]

My Tome of House Rules currently has 46 pages and is currently a v1.57.
It is my definitive attempt to essentially errata 3.5 and re-balance the game. My balancing is generally more nixing the most overtly problematic stuff and buffing alot of the crap.

I've done most of core, only the equipment section and a few annoying spells remain outstanding.


The feats of Cdiv, Carc, Cwar and Cadv are done.

Complete Divine is largely done.
Complete Warrior is about half done.
Work begun on CArc and Cadv.

Needs to be re-formatted, as its grown so large the current formatting is not sensible.


Copies come with but a small charge of giving me some feedback. :)
Join me on MSN at [email protected] to recieve your copy and talk to me about it. Good feedback is likely to influence the Tome and aid me in my efforts and is GREATLY appreciated.

As for the skills topic currently at hand, here's what my Tome has to offer:


Skills:

Skill sets: Certain skills are combined together to form a ‘skill set’, these skill sets are levelled up (ranked up) as normal, and checks are made to them as normal. However, one generally only has specific bonuses to a particular skill in the set. For instance, in the Perception skill set, elves have +2 to Perception, but an eagle only has +8 to spot.

You may not take Skill Focus in a skill set, only in a subskill of that set. You may however take a feat such as Acrobatic and have it grant you +2 to skills of a skill set. You must have all applicable class skills in the skill set in order to take a skill set as a class skill.

Also, at the DM’s option, skills gained through a skill set do not count towards qualifying for things like feats or prestige classes.

Scribing: Forgery and Decipher Script

Perception: Spot, Listen, Smell

Stealth: Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand

Tinkering: Disable Device, Open Lock

Acrobatics: Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist

Athleticism: Climb, Swim, Jump

Survival: Survival, Use Rope

Innuendo: Bluff, Seduction


Bluff:

-When feinting in combat, your opponent may use his BAB in place of his Sense Motive ranks in his opposed check (essentially rolling d20 + BAB + Wisdom mod) instead of as written.

Concentration:

-Casting Defensively: When you attempt to cast defensively in combat to avoid an Attack of Opportunity, your Concentration check is opposed by your opponent’s attack roll. Essentially, you still provoke but your Concentration check serves as your AC, with a penalty of the spell level of the spell you are trying to cast (but not twice the spell level, as with other Concentration checks). Your opponent must still hit your normal AC to hit you.

-Double the spell level (instead of merely the spell level) is added to any DCs that involve the spell level.
-Any Concentration check made to cast a spell, whether from damage, motion or distraction, adds the spell level of the spell being attempted to the DC. Thus, it adds twice the spell level.

For example: If you were hit for 8 points of damage while attempting to cast fly, you would have to make a DC 24 Concentration check or lose the spell.


Intimidate:

-If you display your Strength in some way (such as by attacking with a non-finessed melee weapon) towards your target, you may use it in lieu of Charisma in your Intimidate check.
-When you are attempting to Intimidate someone, your check is opposed by a Will save, adding in any bonus against fear and a +4 circumstance bonus if they are not already shaken or worse.


Diplomacy:

Is not used as-written. I will determine appropriate responses to your requests and objectives depending on your result.
Note: This does not mean the skill is not used, and in fact it is one of the most often used.

-Diplomacy gives a synergy bonus to Gather Information.

*(New Skill) Seduction (Cha):


Speak Language:

It now requires 3 ‘class ranks’ in Speak Language to gain complete fluency with a given language. Partial fluency is also possible, as shown below:
1 Rank: Rudimentary conversation with a limited vocabulary. Able to convey basic intentions, or obtain very common and straightforward information. Make a DC 14 intelligence check to understand general meaning of another conversation. Incur a -6 competence penalty to skills regarding the use of that language.

2 Ranks: Casual conversation with an average vocabulary. Able to communicate effectively regarding common matters, generally understandable and able to understand conversation. Incur a -2 competence penalty to attempting to pass as a native speaker or debate or understand things of an unusual or obscure nature (such as matters requiring a Knowledge (the planes) skill).

3 Ranks: Completely fluent. With some immersion and further practice, able to speak as well as a native speaker. Complete vocabulary.

5 Ranks: Mastery. You have Mastered this language, including obscure or ancient forms of it. Your vocabulary is impressively extensive, and your understanding and command of the language enables you to flawlessly communicate with others. Gain a +4 competence bonus on language-based skill checks while using a language you have Mastered.

-Spells such as Comprehend Languages and Tongues grant the equivalent of 2 ranks in all languages to their recipients.
-Characters start the game with a number of class ranks in Speak Language equal to 1 + Int modifier in addition to their automatic languages.
-People are considered to have rank 3 in their native language (such as Elven for elves), and 2 ranks in any other automatic language (such as Common for elves).


Tumble:

When you attempt to Tumble in combat to avoid an Attack of Opportunity, your Tumble check is opposed by your opponent’s attack roll. Essentially, you still provoke but your Tumble check serves as your AC. Your opponent must still hit your normal AC to hit you.


Use Magic Device:

-Increase base DCs by 5.
-Add the spell level of any device that mimics a spell (such as a wand) to the DC.
-Add half the caster level of any item that does not directly mimics a spell (such as pipes of sounding) to the DC.
-The Emulation class feature is now required to perform UMD functions over DC 28.

[Shadowdweller]

Interesting stuff. Been tinkering around with 3.x a bit myself, and thought I'd share a few of my own ideas.

Re Professions/Crafts/Extremely Obscure Knowledge Skills: It occurred to me that perhaps a separate skill division could reconcile desires for more fleshed-out backgrounds with general utility and balance. One solution that I've already seen amongst several independent play-groups is to offer every character a free "Day-Job" skill point at each level that can only be invested in a role-appropriate craft, profession, (or extremely obscure knowledge) skill. These should, I think, be occasionally useful...though perhaps not at the level of other skills.

Skill Consolidation (general): I agree that this practice is highly desirable for improving balance and simplicity. However, it occurred to me that for a variety of reasons it might also be beneficial to allow certain mechanics to affect specific uses, or subdivisions, within a given skill. One might, for instance, allow a hearing horn to provide a +3 bonus to Perception (Listen) checks when held to one's ear; allow an enterprising character to gain a +1 bonus to Stealth (Move Silently) checks or perhaps cancel a corresponding penalty by wrapping cloth over his hobnailed shoes; allow a character to take some sort of water-phobia flaw that only penalizes Athletics (Swimming) in exchange for some roughly-balanced benefit elsewhere.