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PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 12:49 AM
Okay, dumb question, but the whole multiclassing component of 4th ed seems a bit. . . complicated, and rather silly. So I'm wondering if I'm reading the rules poorly or what.

As I understand it, you spend a feat to get the basic multiclassing feat, and you get some nifties out of it (training in a skill, and some use of a class feature).

Then, if you want to continue multiclassing, you spend up to 3 more feats to gain an encounter power, a utlity power or a daily power from the class you are multiclassing into, in exchange for losing one of your currently known power slots.

The first part seems okay. It's the second part I'm puzzling over. Why would I spend 2 resources (1 feat, and the appropriate type of power slot) to gain access to only 1 resource? It seems a bit of a steep price to pay for only one power. I mean, it might be different if you could have access to the entire suite of powers at each level and could re-train freely betwen classes. That would be significantly more powerful, though I'm not sure it would be overpowered. Or even using the tiered system they have for the feats, if you could spend one feat to gain access to the entire suite of powers of a specific type, though no more often than you normally gain powers, that might be a little more forgiving to the folks who have complicated character concepts. In particular I'm thinking of an Eberron character from one of the novels (Diran Bastian from the Blade of the Flame series). The character started out his early life as an assassin, and then repented, and became a priest of the Silver Flame. Playing out a story like that seems like it would be difficult to represent the character's growth in the new direction. Especially if the character was forsaking his former life for a whole new way of adventuring (not exactly true for Diran, but you get my meaning).

Anyway, if anyone can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-10, 12:54 AM
meh, feats aren't all that useful now, so really it's still a 1 to 1 trade off.

The multiclassing right now is pretty weak because the paragons and powers are pretty class specific and you have to dig for some of the really amazing stuff (which is there!). When we get some more supplement books, I guarantee multiclassing's usefulness will shine full.

We're only really dealing with Core right now so... yeah...

Nekoshodan
2008-06-10, 01:10 AM
I think the most useful part of the multiclass feat choice is not the 2ndary feats for ability swaps, but the option to take a paragon path of that other class instead of the class you started with.

PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 06:35 AM
Neko: Yeah, that's what I"m thinking too! But paying 4 feats to get there still seems a bit steep to me. This may be the first thing I houserule. Assuming I ever get to use the silly game. . .

Bosaxon
2008-06-10, 06:59 AM
Neko: Yeah, that's what I"m thinking too! But paying 4 feats to get there still seems a bit steep to me. This may be the first thing I houserule. Assuming I ever get to use the silly game. . .

Do you have to spend all four feats?

I believe you only need the first and you have the option to forgo a paragon class and rather take powers from your multiclassed class if you have all four.

GnomeNinja
2008-06-10, 07:05 AM
The best part about milticlassing is definitely the initial feats, which typically give you good abilities, but, as Nekoshodan said, the ability to take thier paragon paths. A wizard who Paragons to Divine Oracle? Well, who's the ultimate controller now?

Tengu
2008-06-10, 07:27 AM
Neko: Yeah, that's what I"m thinking too! But paying 4 feats to get there still seems a bit steep to me. This may be the first thing I houserule. Assuming I ever get to use the silly game. . .

That would be true in 3.x, but in 4e you both get more feats and feats are worth much less as most of the bonuses they give are small. Multiclassing is very feasible - even better than in 3.x, as you don't nerf your main class by doing so.

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-10, 07:55 AM
Also, I believe the power-swap multiclassing feats have a clause which states that you can "re-swap" powers at every level, as if you had just taken the feat for the first time. In effect, you can choose to give up the power you gained, regain the original power you traded away, and then make a fresh trade following the normal rules for doing the swap. This allows you to (if you wish) upgrade to the highest level of available powers from your second class. This alone makes it much more valuable.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-10, 07:58 AM
Correct, Killian.

I must say, I made a level 1 wizard yesterday with the Sneak of Shadow (rogue multiclass feat)... He's turned into quite the character, and thievery is a very broad skill to give to a hot-shot wizard (juggling knives, no less!)

I thoroughly enjoy the 4e multiclassing, as its not just "stacking classes" but broadening your character options.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-10, 07:58 AM
I think the first multiclass feat is one of the best you can take for any 4E character; the other three, much less so (because of ability score synergy, and so forth).

However, I found a glitch here... the basic multiclass feat, i.e. Warrior of the Wild and so forth, is supposed to allow you entry to the prestige paths. But, it turns out that several of the prestige paths have additional prerequisites (in particular, which of the two Build Options you took at level 1). But if you got "in" to the class via the feat, you don't have those build options, so technically you can't qualify for Ranger or Warlock prestige classes via those feats...

errata time?

Marius
2008-06-10, 08:04 AM
Multiclass is probably the worst part of 4E. It looks like they didn't know how to balance the system so they just crippled the whole thing. They had to keep every class imprisioned tightly within the boundaries of the "defender, striker, controller, leader" concepts.

Paragon multiclass is even worst that just wasting feats. You lose 3 (usually great) class features from your paragon multiclass and you gain nothing. Plus many paragon paths are inaccessible even if you took the multiclass feats. Ranger paragons for example have as a requirement a "fighting style" that you can't get through multiclassing.

SeraphKast
2008-06-10, 08:04 AM
Not really, its more or less intentional that some of the PP's are completely restricted I think. As for the access to the PP's, if you have the Initiate feat, you can take a PP for either of your classes. If you instead take all four multiclassing feats you have the option to not take a PP, and instead take powers from the other class.

Personally, I've not seen anything that would make me want to do that yet. There's just not enough synergy, and the PP's are generally cool, and powerful. At least, more powerful than generic classes, though being able to retrain the powers to a higher level later might help with that.

Talya
2008-06-10, 08:08 AM
the whole multiclassing component of 4th ed seems a bit. . . complicated


Of all the criticisms I've seen of 4e (and I've made a few of them), this is a first. And it's in direct contradiction with my stated complaint about multiclassing in 4e, so I think I'll defend it against this one.

Multiclassing in 4e is simple to the point of simplistic. It can't actually be done. All you do is borrow a few class features from another class through feat selections, but you don't actually get to multiclass at all. I don't like it, but I'd never call it complicated.

Tola
2008-06-10, 08:23 AM
so technically you can't qualify for Ranger or Warlock prestige classes via those feats...

In the case of the Warlock, that's not true-you choose a Pact and it's related Power(As Encounter, of course) when you take the feat, snd you use THAT to qualify.

Now, the Rogue and Ranger feats don't have that clause in their feats.

tumble check
2008-06-10, 08:56 AM
I see 4e multiclassing going in a specific direction.

It's a really interesting mechanic, and perhaps an improvement over the intense penalties that a character would take to multiclass in 3.5. I think it's kind of neat that you can pick and choose what you want from another class, not to grind through levels of one to get what you want.

However, I foresee very conventional progressions emerging. Many of the abilities that one may choose from another class are not every useful to other classes. What I think will happen is that Fighters will eventually always multiclass to a certain other class for a specific Power. The Rogue will always look to another class for a certain other Power, etc. Recall how many 3.5 Barbarians would often take 2 levels of Fighter just for the Feats.

I imagine conventions like these will develop, and once again give power to the power-gamers/optimizers. (However, I really don't think we can stop them anyway.)

Tengu
2008-06-10, 09:55 AM
Of all the criticisms I've seen of 4e (and I've made a few of them), this is a first. And it's in direct contradiction with my stated complaint about multiclassing in 4e, so I think I'll defend it against this one.

Multiclassing in 4e is simple to the point of simplistic. It can't actually be done. All you do is borrow a few class features from another class through feat selections, but you don't actually get to multiclass at all. I don't like it, but I'd never call it complicated.

If you took all the multiclassing feats, than at level 10 you've replaced three out of your eleven powers with that of another class - and powers are 90% of what makes classes different from each other in 4e. At level 20, if you've decided to go paragon multiclass, seven out of your fifteen powers can belong to your second class. And unlike 3.x, powers both from your first and second class are full strength.

clericwithnogod
2008-06-10, 10:04 AM
I don't think it's bad (and nowhere near as awful as I was expecting it to be based upon the previews). It's not great, but it works quite well within the system for some things.

You pick up powers in some cases that are better than the powers on your list for a specific purpose. Fighter and Ranger powers are better than Rogue powers for dealing damage to a number of targets at once on multiple fronts and they have more to choose froom with earlier access - a multiclass rogue can get a Fighter or Ranger close burst power at 4th level - the first Rogue close burst appears at level 27. Being able to clear out a chunk of minions on multiple sides of you on your own is handy when you'll be a bit away from the party sometimes. Fighters on the other hand, unless they're a Dragonborn or a half-elf that grabs Thunderwave, don't get a blast ever. So going the opposite way to pick one up from somewhere might be worthwhile.

With paragon multiclassing, A rogue can pick cleave or or twin strike to attack two targets (again on multiple fronts) at will. Rogues don't get a multiple target at-will. He also gets bonus powers from his cross class in place of paragon path powers (though there is an empty spot at level 16 that it would be nice to have filled in by a bonus at will from either class or a specific class ability from the cross class).

If he takes the multiclassing epic destiny, Eternal Seeker, he can add a utility like Raven's Glamor to teleport 20 squares and become invisible (with the option to sustain the invisibility) while leaving behind an illusory image of himself, which is just all kinds of awesome. And, he can add Fighter or Ranger (or any other) attack powers if he likes them better than his Rogue powers.

I still think the cost is significant, because I like the feats better than some people do (and if you multiclass fully, you'll probably value the feats you have left too). But, you can make a nice character with the multiclassing rules if you work with them. It's not that hard for me to find three powers that I like enough from some of the class lists to make it worth the cost of a feat to swap out three powers I like less from some of the other class lists, at least with the power lists in place now. With more options down the road, the value might increase or decrease for specific combinations of classes.

If you use multiclassing to pick up modes of attack, targeting options, defenses targeted, and utility powers that are better than your current options (or lack of options) for what you want to do, you can get value out of multiclassing pretty much the whole way through. You can make a jumbled, not-optimal-but-still-kind-of-viable hodgepodge too, but you'll know you're doing it along the way and can back out of it with retraining and the normal power replacements as you advance (unless you jump into Eternal Seeker with both feet and run out of levels to change, but if you make it to 21st level, you'll probably know better).

Multiclassing is complex within the context of the entire system, it's just simplistic on its own. Being able to use a Light Blade in one hand and a Heavy Blade in the other, or use a Heavy Blade in both hands while being able to make a ranged attack or blast with Light Thrown Weapons or draw and make a sneak attack with a Light Blade when you gain combat advantage without an action penalty (via Quick Draw), combined with powers and abilities that work with either and/or both weapons and powers/abilities/feats that provide bonuses to using either and/or both weapons and possibly attacking different enemy defenses with either and/or both weapons makes for a lot of complexity.

Add in the flexibility of Utility powers that are either different from what you can get, or more of what you can get but want to do more often (since you can't take the same power twice) and there is a lot to be gained from multiclassing.

JaxGaret
2008-06-10, 10:08 AM
If you took all the multiclassing feats, than at level 10 you've replaced three out of your eleven powers with that of another class - and powers are 90% of what makes classes different from each other in 4e. At level 20, if you've decided to go paragon multiclass, seven out of your fifteen powers can belong to your second class. And unlike 3.x, powers both from your first and second class are full strength.

This.

Plus, it is possible that there will be more Initiate-type feats to be released in future splatbooks for each class, so that if you want you can garner more of the class features of the class you are multiclassing into.

If not, it would be pretty simple to homebrew them.

Tengu
2008-06-10, 10:11 AM
If not, it would be pretty simple to homebrew them.

Let characters take each power replacement feat more than once and/or take multiclass feats in more than one class, for example.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-10, 10:12 AM
Or just a feat that gives other class abilities... like Artful Dodger from Rogue... or impliment mastery from wizard.

Indon
2008-06-10, 10:28 AM
Multiclassing gets successively worse the further you delve into the system.

The very first step, the initial feat, is by far the best. You _get_ an ability, more Paragon choices, and a trained skill, for the cost of a feat, making them among the best feats.

After that, the multiclass power swapping feats are meh. You give up a power from your class to gain one from another class. These feats seem about average as 4'th edition feats go.

After that is Paragon Multiclassing. You trade in all the benefits of your Paragon path for the option to trade in one of your At-Will powers, and a few sub-par class powers.

Not to say there won't be mechanically beneficial multiclassing combinations - but only the most optimized combinations won't involve significant power sactifice.

PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 10:56 AM
Okay, so I think I've got the 4th ed version of multiclassing down. And I now have a complaint about 4th ed. :-(

Sometimes, regardless of "builds" and "powergaming" and whatever, a character has a change of heart in the process of the story. Often this is in the form of the not-so-heroic character becoming heroic (aforementioned assassin becoming a devout priest, for example), though certainly going in the other direction is an option.

This narrative concept doesn't seem to be very well supported in 4 ed. What is supported is the concept of a dabbler (in fact I think they use that word in the multiclassing section) that picks up tools from other classes, but never truly changes vocations.

I hope they come up with some method of supporting a change in vocation style of multiclassing (and I suppose it's arguable that the re-training rules could be adapted to support this. . .).

Still, overall, I like what I've been reading in 4ed, and I would still play it.

JaxGaret
2008-06-10, 11:14 AM
I hope they come up with some method of supporting a change in vocation style of multiclassing (and I suppose it's arguable that the re-training rules could be adapted to support this. . .).

That's precisely how you would handle it. You can retrain a feat at every level into a multiclassing feat, so that soon enough (if you ignore the no-more-than-one-of-each-power-swap-feat rule), your character would actually have more powers from the new class than the old class.

hamishspence
2008-06-10, 11:17 AM
Narrative concepts are great, but they don't always have to be tied to mechanics. Lets give an example:

X was a Rogue/Shadow Assassin with a long carreer in butchery. Still, he eventually Saw The Light and became a healer of the sick to atone for all his evil deeds.

Now skill training Heal, or maybe Initiate of the Faith as well, is all thats needed to give him a strong flavour of dedication to his new career, Still, he retains most of his old skillset and has limits on his new skills. A bit like Decado The Ice Killer in David Gemmells The King Beyond The Gate: he may have learned new ways, but his old skills are still there and his new talents are skin deep.

You do not have to drastically change the skillset of a character every time he changes direction.

clericwithnogod
2008-06-10, 11:37 AM
This narrative concept doesn't seem to be very well supported in 4 ed. What is supported is the concept of a dabbler (in fact I think they use that word in the multiclassing section) that picks up tools from other classes, but never truly changes vocations.

You'd probably want to be a cleric that has the base Rogue multiclass feat to indicate his previous profession rather than being a Rogue that changes to Cleric via multiclassing. The narrative concept works, but making the change completely doesn't work in-game. If you wanted specifically to go from a Shadow Assassin to some kind of priest, you're probably hosed (though picking up the base Cleric feat to get knowledge religion and healing word then adding some healing rituals would make a narrative change work maybe). If it's vocation, being knowledgable about the religion and being able to do minor healing and use healing rituals might work if you aren't worried about builds or optimizing. then just don't kill people with your dagger anymore, unless they don't tithe.

Thinking back, in previous versions of DND that wouldn't work really well as an in-game switch unless you did it really early (in AD&D doing it would have sucked because you 're essentially a 1st level charcter with more hit points who can't use any of your old classes abilities until you surpass your previous level) and in 3.x, you'd always be down a spell level (and if you had the Assassin prestige class, a lot of spell levels). Blackguard and that ex-Druid thing had swap levels to change mechanics, I can't recall a "become nice" equivalent in 3.x. In 2nd edition, there were all kinds of preist's and packages, I don't know if one of them would have worked. I don't have my older books with me, maybe someone knows a way that this would work better that I don't.

But, a Rogue that was using the CHA option might be able to become holy by adding some Paladin stuff or something. If you aren't optimizing or anything, you'd start with a little more MAD, but you should get by with STR/DEX/WIS/CHA all within a decent range, with a race that placed stats (or allowed you to place a stat) effectively.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-10, 11:39 AM
Also, that concept falls apart in practice in 3rd ed. as well.


If I were a level 6 rogue/4 assassin and then picked up one level of cleric after a "change of heart"... how handy are those CL 1 first level spells at ECL 11? With the 4e multiclassing you get to choose powers from your multiclass path at your level, which, while not fully engrossing you in the class... at least makes you decent at it.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-10, 12:15 PM
Also, that concept falls apart in practice in 3rd ed. as well.


If I were a level 6 rogue/4 assassin and then picked up one level of cleric after a "change of heart"... how handy are those CL 1 first level spells at ECL 11? With the 4e multiclassing you get to choose powers from your multiclass path at your level, which, while not fully engrossing you in the class... at least makes you decent at it.

Agreed, just because you now have Cleric 1 next to your other classes doesn't make you a full fledged cleric in the eyes of those asking for teh healz.
I think that 4e handled multiclassing in a much more interesting way. You are no longer screwed over completely if you wanted a certain character concept (wizard + fighter im looking at you!), as all of the powers balance out and you can be useful in different ways. Currently I'm trying to make a base fighter class (something with a sword) that uses the push type powers, and then take wizard powers so I can push people in desired formations then blast away. Although, now that base attack is no longer an issue, I was also thinking about just taking wizard as a base class, getting proficiency in leather and a light blade, then multi classing to fighter. Too awesome.

And hold on a second, I think people are doing paragon multiclassing wrong. It never says anything about taking the second classes paragon powers, it just says to take the normal classes powers. While this may not seem quite as powerful, I'm sure that there can be some great builds to make.

Edit; Never mind, I now understand.

PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 02:21 PM
Also, that concept falls apart in practice in 3rd ed. as well.

If I were a level 6 rogue/4 assassin and then picked up one level of cleric after a "change of heart"... how handy are those CL 1 first level spells at ECL 11? With the 4e multiclassing you get to choose powers from your multiclass path at your level, which, while not fully engrossing you in the class... at least makes you decent at it.

A few comments:
1. From a narrative perspective (and from observing the real world), when someone changes careers/vocations completely (not just changing jobs) there are typically whole new skill sets that need to be developed to be proficient at the new carreer (think about an Artist who decides to become a Mathematician). Some of the old skill sets may still be useful, but by and large you're learning a lot just to be proficient. Your Artist isn't going to just suddenly become the head of the Math Department at your local university. But, by implimenting the multiclassing system in 4E, that is essentially what you're agreeing to do. Your Rogue who's been a rogue for awhile, that suddenly becomes a changed man and becomes a cleric or paladin, suddenly has powers on par with clerics or paladins that have much more time spent as clerics or paladins. Not as many powers, but certainly powers that are on equal footing. That just doesn't make any sense.

2. What the multiclassing system in 4e does represent reasonably well is someone who, from the start, has a concept that is a bit too broad to be captuered inside one of the iconic roles defined by the game. In that sense, it's just fine, and I've no complaints.

3. Your arguments about lvl 1 spells during ECL 11 encounters. . fall on deaf ears. You are making an argument about game balance, a valid argument by the way. But what I'm talking about at this point is having a representation of the narrative of the game on my character sheet. Preferrably in a manner that doesn't completely hose the character (and thus the player), but that is sort of a secondary goal. In 3.x, this was a fairly simple thing to represent on paper through multiclassing. You just took another class, and that was the end of it. In the particular novel I'm reading, the character *is* sort of gimped as a spellcaster. He has yet to do anything besides healing magic, I think. (In fact I suspect he's actually a paladin instead of a cleric. ) But the point is that the character's vocation has changed. He was a rogue (possibly Assassin, it's not clear) and now he's definitely progressing as a priest of some sort, without any apparent loss (or improvement) of former skills, knowledge, or capability, which seems to be the halmark of the 4E system.
Now, of course it's fiction, so it won't ever be represented exactly in game, but I don't really see how this character (or many like him) could be represented in the new system, especially if this class change occurs during the course of the campaign.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a "hater" or anything, I really like the game, from what I've read so far. I'm just thinking that the game is very good at representing static, iconic characters, or well planned builds; but not very good at representing characters that change dramatically (in this fashion) during the course of the story.

hamishspence
2008-06-10, 02:46 PM
Providing an in game explanation as to why, as you take power swap feats (if you take these feats) they are full strength, might be tricky. Initiate of the faith is a good starter: you have been accepted, are repentant, are a new member of the clergy, and they teach you religious doctrine and how to heal. (Soldier of the faith is not so appropiate: gives you challenge, not healing)

Because you have been doing something else all your life, you will never be able to do what a true cleric can do. However, with the blessing of the gods, you can unlearn some of your old powers and have new powers bestowed on you. You don't get something for nothing: each cleansing of your taint removes some of your old dark skills. To aid in your repentance, the powers they grant you are more in line with your actual level: you have a great destiny as a redeemed vilain and they bestow mighty powers on you that help you fulfil that destiny.

This might actually fit a warlock even better, but the idea is there.

Why your skills in your old class continue to rise needs another explanation. Maybe, despite your repentance, you still train, in case your skills are needed by the powers of good. Bodily exercises, etc.

PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 02:55 PM
hamish: not bad! I think there are still holes in the multiclassing business, but I think that's a good start. Like you said, there's still the issue of why your old skills continue to improve, for starters. What they've given us isn't bad, I just think that it's the sort of thing that was modeled better, in this one instance of a complete vocation change, in 3.x. I have hopes that this might see some attention in the next splatbooks, but I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps I'll put my hand to some homebrewing . . . much as I don't like to do that.

hamishspence
2008-06-10, 03:05 PM
I take the approach that, if rules seem a little odd, provide explanations, rather than just hate the oddness. It can tax the imagination a bit, but is more fun than just getting annoyed.

I also look at the things I do like: ritual scrolls of Enchant item allow one to represent the scene in Crystal Shard where Bruenor enchant Aegis Fang pretty well: he spent long time crafting the thing, but putting magic into it took place quickly, in one night. Might also rule that either Drizzt has Ritual Casting, or he has a scroll of Magic Circle, for the scene where he puts up wards to keep Errtu away. Said wards did not work though.

However I am not sure if such cases, where 4th ed allows you to replicate the things novel characters do, that older systems didn't, are common.

PnP Fan
2008-06-10, 03:20 PM
Well, to be fair, most of the FR and Eberron and DL books were strongly influenced by the way the 1-3.x editions worked. (okay, they were basically marketing tools to sell the game.) 4ed is a significant enough change in mechanics that it shouldn't be expected to exactly replicate everything in those novels. This is just one case where it misses the mark a bit. I might submit this to The Sage to see what the official response is (with hopes that the Sage will get stumped, and they'll provide another solution in a splat book, phb 2 or something.)

Believe me, I'm looking forward to sitting down with some friends and putting it through it's paces. Until then, I'll just have to settle for scribbling out characters, and trying builds and whatnot.

hamishspence
2008-06-10, 07:31 PM
no, the point I was making was that, in these cases, for the first time in a long while, it DOES allow you to do things from novels. Bruenor Battlehammer, as statted in Silver Marches, has no way of making magical items: no Craft Magic Arms and Armour, or anything. Drizzt has no way to put up magic circles of protection.

But, with 4th eds ritual rules, for the first time, you can actually have characters do that. mostly with scrolls, but at least option is there. it wasn't in 3rd, and I'm not sure if 2nd ed rules allowed non-casters to make magic items either.