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Project_Mayhem
2008-06-10, 08:59 AM
Inspired by another thread, I'm rolling up some characters to give some of the free adventures a blast - however, came across a problem or two, namely in multiclassing. I'm trying to make a Half Elf Fighter/Thief.

Firstly, if the rest of the party is level 3, should I make her at Fighter 3/ Thief 3? I know everyone else overtakes her later, but is that right at first?

Secondly, do I use the fighter's to hit, or the thief's?

Thirdly, are her saves the fighter's, the thief's, or the average?

Thanks in advance.

Matthew
2008-06-10, 09:14 AM
Hey Project_Mayhem! Good to see folks giving this a go!

Everything is calculated on experience points, rather than on Levels. So, if your Half Elf Fighter/Thief has 5,000 XP, then he has 2,500/2,500, which translates to Fighter 2/Thief 3. To be Fighter 3/Thief 3, you would need 8,000 XP (4,000/4,000). At that point, a normal Fighter would be Level 4.

Multi Class Characters use the best available saves and to hit, even cherry picking them from the charts (Hell, Multi Class Fighter/Mage can wear armour and cast spells with no restrictions at all).

So, in the case of the Fighter 2/Thief 3, you use the Fighter to hit table and the Thief saving throws (since they're uniformly better than the Fighter's)

Fighter 2: 16/17/14/15/17
Thief 3: 14/16/13/12/15

Hope that answers your questions.

Project_Mayhem
2008-06-10, 09:15 AM
Ah thanks. Yeah, this should be old school fun.

Charity
2008-06-10, 09:18 AM
Too slow damnit.

bosssmiley
2008-06-10, 09:33 AM
Too slow damnit.

You are learning young grasshopper, but you have not yet earned the mantle of Master of the Old School. :smallwink:

@Matt: dugg (wrong freakin' website :smallredface:) props for the most succinct explanation of the (sometimes gnomic) multi-classing rules I've ever seen.

Now for a real test: human dual-classing. How the h*ll does that even work? :smallconfused:

Project_Mayhem
2008-06-10, 09:36 AM
Now for a real test: human dual-classing. How the h*ll does that even work?

Yeah, I saw the rules and decided not a chance in hell. I remember from Baldur's gate that all it did was stupidly gimp your character unless you knew exactly waht you were doing, and even done properly you had several levels of sucking.

Charity
2008-06-10, 09:45 AM
You are learning young grasshopper, but you have not yet earned the mantle of Master of the Old School. :smallwink:

@Matt: dugg (wrong freakin' website :smallredface:) props for the most succinct explanation of the (sometimes gnomic) multi-classing rules I've ever seen. Now for a real test: human dual-classing. How the h*ll does that even work? :smallconfused:

Dual classing... I dimly recall ...

OK when you achieve a certain level... whichever you chose say... 5th level in a single class, you may then chose to cease all progress in that class and start another, you lose all class features except HP and you start again on the XP table (thus you progress pretty quickly), when you have achieved the same level (or is it a higher level, I can't remember) then all your old class features come flooding back and you can use them again, you still only progress in the one class however... and I believe you can do this an unlimited number of times, it was a bit broken I seem to recall.

nagora
2008-06-10, 10:13 AM
Dual classing... I dimly recall ...

OK when you achieve a certain level... whichever you chose say... 5th level in a single class, you may then chose to cease all progress in that class and start another, you lose all class features except HP
Not quite. You don't lose anything but, until your training is complete (ie, your new class level equals your old one) you can't use the old abilities and still gain xp. So a 5th level magic user who's changed to fighter/magic user could cast a fireball any time but it would negate any xp for the current adventure

Having said that, the ftr/mu would have to be wearing no armour in that case.

Once you've equalised your levels you can mix functions much more easily.

hamlet
2008-06-10, 10:17 AM
Multi Class Characters use the best available saves and to hit, even cherry picking them from the charts (Hell, Multi Class Fighter/Mage can wear armour and cast spells with no restrictions at all).



Didn't the character in question have to be an elf for this to apply?

Been a while since I looked at the book so I might be mistaken.

nagora
2008-06-10, 10:25 AM
Didn't the character in question have to be an elf for this to apply?

Been a while since I looked at the book so I might be mistaken.

Elves are indeed the kings of multi-class and are the only btb race to be able to be f/mu. Halflings can be fighter/druids and almost all demi-humans can be cleric/fighters.

hamlet
2008-06-10, 10:57 AM
Elves are indeed the kings of multi-class and are the only btb race to be able to be f/mu. Halflings can be fighter/druids and almost all demi-humans can be cleric/fighters.

As I thought.

And if I recall from what Gary said on the subject, that concession was only to appease the fan base and that Gary (with tounge firmly planted in cheek I am sure) hated "those pointy-eared fops" and always insisted that humans were the real stars of the game.

nagora
2008-06-10, 11:13 AM
As I thought.

And if I recall from what Gary said on the subject, that concession was only to appease the fan base and that Gary (with tounge firmly planted in cheek I am sure) hated "those pointy-eared fops" and always insisted that humans were the real stars of the game.

Gary was never fond of elves, no.

In AD&D, all the races had something they were particularly good at, and for humans it was being good at things! Elves could fight and use magic, gnomes were good at illusion etc. But a human could become better at any one thing than any elf or dwarf or whatever ever could.

This got diluted later but the demi-humans almost always paid for their multi-class abilities with level caps, which also helped explain a game world that was not run by 1800-year-old 195th level elves.

Matthew
2008-06-10, 03:00 PM
@Matt: dugg (wrong freakin' website :smallredface:) props for the most succinct explanation of the (sometimes gnomic) multi-classing rules I've ever seen.

Thanks, I am glad it was understandable.



Now for a real test: human dual-classing. How the h*ll does that even work? :smallconfused:

Heh, heh. Well, it looks like Charity beat me to it whilst I was away, but I will give it a go anyway.

The up and down of it is that some 'naturally talented' [15+ in the primary attribute(s) of his former class and 17+ in the primary attribute(s) of his new class] humans can abandon one class to start progression in another. Whilst doing so, they must not use any of the abilities of their former class if they wish to advance in experience in their new class. Once they get one level higher than their last class, they can use all their former and new abilities, but not in an overlapping manner [i.e. no casting magic user spells while wearing armour].



Yeah, I saw the rules and decided not a chance in hell. I remember from Baldur's gate that all it did was stupidly gimp your character unless you knew exactly waht you were doing, and even done properly you had several levels of sucking.

That sounds pretty accurate. A character 'could' (for instance) take two



Not quite. You don't lose anything but, until your training is complete (ie, your new class level equals your old one) you can't use the old abilities and still gain xp. So a 5th level magic user who's changed to fighter/magic user could cast a fireball any time but it would negate any xp for the current adventure

Having said that, the ftr/mu would have to be wearing no armour in that case.

Once you've equalised your levels you can mix functions much more easily.
That's a complicated issue. Magic Users are not allowed to wear armour, so if a Dual Classed Fighter 5/Magic User 5 wears armour and casts spells, he is contravening the prohibitions of his class (Just as a Dual Classed Fighter/Cleric would be forbidden from using edged or pointed weapons). Some DMs take the stance that it is outright forbidden, others slam a heft experience penalty onto the character for going against the archetype.



Didn't the character in question have to be an elf for this to apply?

Been a while since I looked at the book so I might be mistaken.



Elves are indeed the kings of multi-class and are the only btb race to be able to be f/mu. Halflings can be fighter/druids and almost all demi-humans can be cleric/fighters.

Not quite true. Half elves can also be Multi Class Fighter/Magic Users; there is some debate (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29295) as to whether they can wear armour and cast spells as Elves. Personally, I am fine with them doing so, and would argue that it would be a by the book interpretation of the rules.



And if I recall from what Gary said on the subject, that concession was only to appease the fan base and that Gary (with tounge firmly planted in cheek I am sure) hated "those pointy-eared fops" and always insisted that humans were the real stars of the game.



Gary was never fond of elves, no.

Gygax and Middle Earth never seem to have gotten on. Maybe it had something to do with the Tolkien estate forcing him to rename Hobbits as Halflings? In any case, his swords & sorcery mileau favoured humans as a dominant race. I can imagine he also became frustrated with the very close association of LotR and AD&D, when it was only one book in a list of works that he wanted the game to encompass as part of its genre possibilities.



In AD&D, all the races had something they were particularly good at, and for humans it was being good at things! Elves could fight and use magic, gnomes were good at illusion etc. But a human could become better at any one thing than any elf or dwarf or whatever ever could.

This got diluted later but the demi-humans almost always paid for their multi-class abilities with level caps, which also helped explain a game world that was not run by 1800-year-old 195th level elves.

Heh, heh. I try to keep away from the 'level limits' discussions. :smallbiggrin:

nagora
2008-06-10, 05:50 PM
That's a complicated issue. Magic Users are not allowed to wear armour, so if a Dual Classed Fighter 5/Magic User 5 wears armour and casts spells, he is contravening the prohibitions of his class (Just as a Dual Classed Fighter/Cleric would be forbidden from using edged or pointed weapons). Some DMs take the stance that it is outright forbidden, others slam a heft experience penalty onto the character for going against the archetype.
I did say he'd have to be unarmoured. I think generally that the dual-class rules are intended to limit humans without forbidding them, thus reinforcing the racial characteristic of being the great specialists (single class) who struggle with being generalist (more than one class).


Not quite true. Half elves can also be Multi Class Fighter/Magic Users;

Ohh, picky!


there is some debate (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29295) as to whether they can wear armour and cast spells as Elves. Personally, I am fine with them doing so, and would argue that it would be a by the book interpretation of the rules.
I'm with you; the "no armour" logic is twisted to me.


Heh, heh. I try to keep away from the 'level limits' discussions. :smallbiggrin:
I know, but I feel sometimes someone has to try and point out that there is some logic behind them; they're not as arbitrary as some would claim. Of course, they also hardly matter given how long it takes to reach most of them in AD&D.

Matthew
2008-06-10, 06:06 PM
I did say he'd have to be unarmoured. I think generally that the dual-class rules are intended to limit humans without forbidding them, thus reinforcing the racial characteristic of being the great specialists (single class) who struggle with being generalist (more than one class).

Yep, I think I was just spilling my thoughts on the issue, I probably just quoted you for context. You know how it is with long posts and no multi quote function...


Ohh, picky!

Heh, heh. :smallbiggrin:


I'm with you; the "no armour" logic is twisted to me.

Indeedy.


I know, but I feel sometimes someone has to try and point out that there is some logic behind them; they're not as arbitrary as some would claim. Of course, they also hardly matter given how long it takes to reach most of them in AD&D.

I don't know why people get bent out of shape about it, to be honest. It's one of the 'gameyist' rules around. If the DM wants to ignore level limits after giving the matter due consideration, then he should. As long as the players know the score, it's no big deal.