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Eldritch_Ent
2008-06-10, 03:45 PM
Talking with my DM today, I just came upon what I thought was a rather simple but elegant solution to the monk's main problem, MAD. After a bit of talking, this is what we came up with-

Simply Edit three of the monk's abilities like so-

Ki Strike- In addition to the other benefits, a monk now adds it's WIS modifier to attack and damage rolls, in addition to his STR modifier.
Wholeness of Body- In addition to the other benefits, the monk now adds her WIS modifier to her CON modifier to determine bonus HP. This HP gain is applied retroactively.
Quivering palm- 2/week when first gained, an additional 1/week use for every level of monk after that, maxing out at 7/week. If the victim saves when willed to die, they still take 3d6+wis mod damage. If the monk has any Quivering Palm uses left that week, they may will the same subject to die again and force another save as an immediate action at the cost of another Quivering Palm use.

And voila! A monk that's a sight more useable.

UserClone
2008-06-10, 03:53 PM
I think that it would be better without the last sentence of the second paragraph. That one makes ZERO sense to me. Quivering Palm is analogous to the Five-Point-Palm-Exploding-Heart Technique of Kill Bill. You set up the vibrations, then (though the trigger is different) they later die. How would you be willing them to die if you had not again set up the death pinch in the first place? Other than that, me likey.

Talya
2008-06-10, 04:03 PM
Not enough.

In addition to the above, Change Flurry of Blows to work with a standard action or full attack action, then allow the monk to enchant their body like the Kensei class, and you've suddenly got something with a reason to use.

Ned the undead
2008-06-10, 04:20 PM
I'm not very familiar with monks, but I've been thinking of homebrewing a pair of soft leather gloves & greaves called Monk's Armaments that can enchanted with special effects of wepons based on the + bonus that monks get to their unarmed strikes

Behold_the_Void
2008-06-10, 04:30 PM
Or alternately give it the pounce ability early on. Just something to give it's mobility a use.

Flurry on a standard action I also like, it might make spring attacking decent.

Aleron
2008-06-10, 04:46 PM
Hmm...I might try that in an upcoming D&D game I'm plotting out. Changes would be:

Wholeness of Body- In addition to the other benefits, the monk now adds her WIS modifier to her CON modifier to determine bonus HP. This HP gain is not retroactive
Flury of Blows - Can be used as a standard action or Full Attack

And change Ki Strike to the following:

At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

In addition the monk may spend 24 hours in meditation to apply any qualified weapon enhancement to their unarmed attack with a maximum bonus equal to their wisdom modifier. These modifier don't require the normal Spell Components or XP costs, but do require a special incense costing the an amount equal to what it would normally cost to enchant a normal weapon with this enchantment. A monk may change these bonuses and modifiers any time they gain a level. Bonuses gained from Magic Items(Ex Periapt of Wisdom +x) or other temporary sorces only confer a +X bonus to their attack and damage rolls.

Yeah, that's a WORDY change, but assuming I worded it the way I was thinking it, should work well.

Gorbash
2008-06-10, 05:09 PM
Give them a Divine Rank or two, maybe it will be enough.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-06-10, 05:18 PM
Flurry changed to a basic action or full-attack action, split stats for Monks in including Flurry as a base attack collumn when Flurrying giving them two different BAB bonuses.

Add +wisdom modifier to either Damage or BAB as a modifier as wanted, kinda like power attack so they can go for extra damage or better chance of hitting something.

(I want monks to be either using their years of training to hit more vulnerable points, i.e. more damage or to be able to outwit their opponents and hit them with greater ease then would be expected. As soon as a monk hits +5 wis mod he will be on the same attack bonus as a fighter but with less attacks unless he flurries at which point the attacks are up there but slightly less accurate so the fighter is still slightly ahead.)

Monk hp modified by either Con+(+1 for every 3 levels which is not retroactively) or Wis modifier as choosen at character creation.
Monks with Con modifiers get damage reduction 1/- at lvl 5, 2/- at lvl 10, 3/- at lvl 15 and 4/- at lvl 20.

(I want monk to be either really, really fit and buff with the ability to shrug off damage a normal person would never be able to take or to be exceedingly spiritual to the point that they would be able to controll their bodies better and as such able to take a punishment better then the average)

Quivering Palm changed to one use a day +dex modifier (max +2), on successfull hit versus AC + highest base save of target, causes damage and normal effect.
If successfull saved take damage as normal and check to confirm crit as if a crit was threatened.

(I want quivering palm to be deadly but pretty difficult to pull off on a moving target, you are after all going for some vital points or nerve clusters. Which means the target will be harder to affect but if you hit it would take serious damage regardless of the quivering palm effect if it saves)

Monks able to use weapon or movement enhancements on themselves at double normal costs.
Enchantment levels as follows:
lvl 5 to 9 +1 enhancement
lvl 10 to 14 +2 enhancement
lvl 15 to 17 +3 enhancement
lvl 18 to 19 +4 enhancement
lvl 20+ +5 enhancement

I want monks to be either rockhard combat monsters or spiritual skilled fighters.

Vortling
2008-06-10, 05:24 PM
I use unarmed swordsages instead of monks. Viola!

Chronos
2008-06-10, 05:59 PM
I use unarmed swordsages instead of monks. Viola!Much though I have issues with the Tome of Battle, I think this is actually the best answer (minus the musical instrument, of course). The classic kung-fu monk should use an entirely different fighting system than a more straightforward "hit things as hard as you can" warrior. This would, perhaps, lead to "monks" being too powerful compared to warrior-type characters, but that's a problem with the warrior-types, not with the monk itself. If Wizards had also released something in addition to ToB that made warriors comparably more powerful, I'd have no problem with it at all.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-10, 06:22 PM
I giev tem rankx in Sue Magic Dvice, and also 50 piont buy bcuz dey totly kik as that wai! Everybdoy knwos monks are all abuot blastgni your emenies wit magikc pwoer!!!

Frosty
2008-06-10, 06:25 PM
If Wizards had also released something...that made warriors comparably more powerful, I'd have no problem with it at all.

May I introduce you to Ms Warblade and Ms Crusader?

turkishproverb
2008-06-10, 06:30 PM
Some of these are similar to my neoj-monk build. Kind'v funny.


Before I post mine, does anyone know how to put up that grid people normally have set when they put up a class level by level?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-06-10, 07:11 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1183222&postcount=1 Yes, actually!

Chronos
2008-06-10, 07:49 PM
May I introduce you to Ms Warblade and Ms Crusader?I've already met them. When the problem is that casters overshadow warriors, the solution is not to introduce new caster classes that are designed to overshadow warriors.

Talya
2008-06-10, 09:08 PM
I've already met them. When the problem is that casters overshadow warriors, the solution is not to introduce new caster classes that are designed to overshadow warriors.

Warblade and Crusader rarely, if ever, feel like a caster. Swordsages most certainly do at times, but Warblades feel like super-fighters. Crusaders are....odd. I'm not sure I like them. Nevertheless, they still don't feel like casters. (I guess they do to the extent a Paladin feels like a caster...technically a paladin IS a caster...but they're primarily melee. And crusader really feels more melee-ish than a paladin.)

turkishproverb
2008-06-10, 09:19 PM
I've already met them. When the problem is that casters overshadow warriors, the solution is not to introduce new caster classes that are designed to overshadow warriors.

You just hit the reason i snicker every time someone mentions swordsage.

Vortling
2008-06-10, 09:29 PM
I've already met them. When the problem is that casters overshadow warriors, the solution is not to introduce new caster classes that are designed to overshadow warriors.

The trouble with that attitude is I've never seen one of you sufficiently able to define what is needed to create this mythical "non-caster" warrior that you keep talking about without having at least 2 definitions for "non-caster" per participant in the discussion. I find it simpler to realize that the warblade really isn't a caster. However I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Chronos
2008-06-10, 10:30 PM
However I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.I'm willing to leave it at that. Even if I were inclined to debate the point further, this isn't the thread for it.

turkishproverb
2008-06-10, 11:01 PM
Here's My monk. I decided to focus most on the Purity of Body-Purity of Mind Aspect of the Monk


Neo- Monk
Alignment

Any lawful.
Hit Die

d8.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Skill Points at 1st Level

(6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level

4 + Int modifier.

Class Skills

The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide
(Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).


In addition, a monk May, at Level 1 select 1 Skill from the following list as an "area of special study" and treat it as a class skill.
List: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (any 1), Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sleight Of Hand, Speak Language/ReadWrite Language (allows no penalty taking languages), Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Use Rope


Neo-Monk
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|FoB Attack Bonus|AC Bonus|Unarmored Speed|Damage Reduction|Unarmed Damage|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|
-2/-2|
+0|
+10|
+0|
1d6|Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, Bonus Feat,

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|
-1/-1|
+1|
+10|
+1|
1d6|Evasion, Body over Mind, Bonus Feat,

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|
0/0|
+1|
+10|
+1|
1d6|Still Mind

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1/+1|
+2|
+20|
+2|
1d8|Slow Fall 20 ft, Ki Strike (magic)

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+2/+2|
+2|
+20|
+2|
1d8|Purity of Body, Mind Over Body 1/2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+3/+3|
+3|
+20|
+3|
1d8|Slow Fall 30 ft, Bonus Feat

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+4/+4|
+3|
+20|
+3|
1d10|Wholeness of Body

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+5/+5/+0|
+4|
+30|
+4|
1d10|One Body One Mind, Slow Fall 40 ft

9th|
+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+6/+6/+1|
+4|
+30|
+4|
1d10|Ki Strike (Lawful), Improved Evasion

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+7/+7/+2|
+5|
+30|
+5|
2d6|Slow Fall 50 ft, Mind over Body Full

11th|
+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|
+8/+8/+8/+3|
+5|
+30|
+5|
2d6|Diamond Body, greater flurry

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|
+9/+9/+9/+4|
+6|
+40|
+6|
2d6|Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60 ft

13th|
+x+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|
+9/+9/+9/+4|
+6|
+40|
+6|
2d8|Diamond Soul

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|
+10/+10/+10/+5|
+7|
+40|
+7|
2d8|Quivering Palm, Slow Fall 70 ft

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|
+11/+11/+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+50|
+7|
2d8|Mind Over Body 1 1/2

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+11|
+11|
+11|
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+50|
+8|
2d10|Slow Fall 80 ft

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+11|
+11|
+11|
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+50|
+8|
2d10|Tongue of sun and Moon, Timeless Body

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+12|
+12|
+12|
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3|
+9|
+50|
+9|
2d10|Slow Fall 90 ft

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+12|
+12|
+12|
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+60|
+9|
2d12|Ki Strike (adamantite), Empty Body

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+13|
+13|
+13|
+15/+10/+5|
+10|
+60|
+10|
2d12|Slow Fall any distance, Mind Over Body 2[/table]






AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 2nd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every two monk levels thereafter (+2 at 4th +3 at 6th and +4 at 8th level etc).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless when she wears any armor when she carries a shield or when she carries a medium or heavy load.


Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry

When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.


Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select Power attack, Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.


Fast Movement (Ex)

At 1st level a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.


Body over Mind

Beginning at level 2, and every even numbered level thereafter, The monk gains Damage Reduction 1. These effects are cumulative


Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Still Mind (Ex)

A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.


Slow Fall (Ex)

At 4th level or higher a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.


Ki Strike (Su)

At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 9th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 19th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.


Purity of Body (Ex)

At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.


Mind over Body

Beginning at Level 5, A monk may make a concentration check at any time to add his half his Wisdom Bonus to the attack Roll. At level 10 she may make the concentration check to add her full wisdom bonus, at level 15 to gain one and a half times her concentration bonus, and at level 20 to gain double her concentration bonus to attack rolls.

Note: Numbers added to Attack rolls with this ability may be used with power Attack.


Wholeness of Body (Su)

At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.


One Body One Mind

At 8th level the monk now adds her WIS modifier to her CON modifier to determine bonus HitPoints. This bonus is applied retroactively.



Improved Evasion (Ex)

At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.


Diamond Body (Su)

At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.


Abundant Step (Su)

At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).


Diamond Soul (Ex)

At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.


Quivering Palm (Su)

Starting at 14th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a week, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.


Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)

A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.


Timeless Body

Upon attaining 17th level a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken however remain in place. Bonuses still accrue and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.


Empty Body (Su)

At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk

level.

Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class a monk may be a multiclass character but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level. though she retains all her monk abilities



Small or Monk Unarmed Damage Level
1st-3rd 1d4
4th-6th 1d6
7th-9th 1d8
10th-12th 1d10
13th-15th 2d6
16th-18th 2d8
19th-20th 2d10


Large Monk Unarmed Damage Level
1st-3rd 1d8
4th-6th 2d6
7th-9th 2d8
10th-12th 3d6
13th-15th 3d8
16th-18th 4d8
19th-20th 4d10

seedjar
2008-06-11, 03:26 AM
I always thought it would be interesting to make a PrC for multiclass monk/arcane casters that turned their spells and flurry of blows into antimagic effects and sundering. I never gave it a whole lot of thought mechanically... Initially I was thinking that you should have to forsake all magic (maybe just arcana) upon entering, but I also see possibilities in trading spells known and spells per day to permanently beef up certain monk abilities. For example, you could swear off X amount of touch spells to turn wholeness of body into lay on hands, or feather fall to step your slow fall up 10' and allow a full stop in mid-fall for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom mod. Maybe enchantments to turn quivering palm into some sort of suggestion or domination...? Some people might hate me for saying this, but I think the capstone ability should be wish. Some caveats would be that you can't get it until your actual 20th level - maybe it takes forgetting a 9th-lv spell and spell slot and can only be gained with a caster level of 20. Maybe use limited wish in general and give the player a one-time, extra-powerful-within-DM's-reason wish representing their mastery and oneness with the universe.
It's not really a mechanical fix for the monk, but I feel like the idea of giving up spells for a more final control over magic altogether is a good explanation for a monk that could (hopefully) take on a wizard. Plus it's kind of a comment on the state of the 3.x casters vs. melee, although that was unintentional or at least subconscious.
~Joe

Eldariel
2008-06-11, 04:32 AM
What's been said - Flurry usable whenever a Monk attacks, Pounce at some level, Quivering Palm more than Once Per Campaign, body enhancements, the ability to use their Str or Dex for Trip, Grapple, etc. and fixing Spring Attack. Making Spring Attack not require two worthless feats would go a long way to making it usable, especially with Flurry now usable with it.

bosssmiley
2008-06-11, 04:39 AM
I prefer the Dungeonomicon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=659653) monk to the PHB one for high magic settings. There's nothing quite like drop-kicking someone so hard they rupture planar boundaries and fall into the Abyss. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2008-06-11, 03:23 PM
My fixes (and they change according to my mood):

Remove Lawful requirement. Full BAB. Flurry as a standard action starting at 5th level. Proficiency with Gauntlets. Able to spend time/gold/xp to enchant own body as though it were a magic weapon or armor.

Unarmed Strike counts as a 2h weapon for purposes of Disarm checks.

At level 10, counts as one size category larger for purposes of Grapple, Trip, and Disarm checks. At level 20, this improves to two size categories larger.

Remove Diamond Body. Diamond Soul now grants the Diamond Body bonuses.

Abundant Step moves to Level 11. Usable Monk Level/2 per day.

Level 12 bonus: Air Walk, Monk Level/4 per day.

Temp.
2008-06-11, 10:32 PM
My group runs two sorts of games. When we strictly follow the rules, Monks get no love at all. When we run our houseruled-beyond-recognition games, this is how it would probably work:

Experts (Factotums with increased IP, no spellcasting) get to choose their base mental stats (Wisdom to emulate Monk-types; Charisma to create Fortune's Friend-like characters).

All characters choose a certain number of Weapon Groups, depending on their class choices. Monk Unarmed Strikes are one of the options.

All classes get unarmored AC increases based on their levels (modeled after UA's Defense Bonus system, but functioning like a Swordsage's AC--applying against Touch Attacks and functioning in light armor).

Most of the Monk class features have been turned into feats. Stunning Fist has variants for each saving throw (and can be used with any weapon group) and is much more easily accessible.

Our Warrior class (a generic ToB/Fighter) can choose three disciplines. Some combination of Diamond Mind, Setting Sun and Tiger Claw would probably portray a Monk pretty well.

So an armorless Expert/Warrior focused on Unarmed Strikes would probably be the way we model a Monk.

Armads
2008-06-11, 11:16 PM
All they need is UMD as a class skill and Cha to power all their abilities.

Aleron
2008-06-12, 07:14 AM
All they need is UMD as a class skill and Cha to power all their abilities.
We don't need another Sir G thread. No, Monk + UMD = Fail

Jastermereel
2008-06-12, 02:42 PM
As another incremental improvement idea, why not have the bonus feats have unique progressions? For example, a monk choosing Improved Grapple over Stunning fist would get not just a flat extra-feat bonus, but, as the levels progress, the bonus could increase gradually, as Telonius suggested, or it could allow for further options down the line (if you chose Imp Grapple at 1, at a later level you could choose between another freebie feat of CW's Clever Wrestling or an ability similar to CW's Reaping Mauler's sleeper hold moves). If they choose Stunning fist, at a later level have the option of improving the DC (from using half the character level to 3/4 or the full level) or permitting it to be used more than once per turn.

While it isn't the biggest problem with the monk, the grab-bag of misc. abilities isn't particularly useful. Supplementing (or replacing) them with branching paths of development (similar to the Ranger's combat training) rather than static one-offs, could help dramatically.

Craig1f
2008-06-12, 03:19 PM
Or alternately give it the pounce ability early on. Just something to give it's mobility a use.

Flurry on a standard action I also like, it might make spring attacking decent.

Instead of pounce, I like my homebrewed "Flying Kick"

As a charge, you may execute a flying kick. You do so using your highest attack bonus *minus 4*. You then execute a full attack, *excluding your lowest attack*, and add all the damage together (rather than taking all damage separately) and deal that much damage. This ability tends to have an easier time of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, your target makes a save of 10+Wis+Monk Level. If they fail, you automatically bull rush them, except that you may choose to land in their square instead of continuing to move forward if you are able to push them more than 5 feet. *If you have Improved Trip, you also get a free trip attempt at the point where they land*.

*...* Indicates an optional part of my homebrewed ability.

-The minus 4 is because that's the penalty for multi-shot. It seems appropriate.
-Excluding the lowest attack just seems appropriate for balance, but isn't necessary.
-The free trip attempt on top of all of the rest of this can be very overpowered, but just seems to make sense.

Curmudgeon
2008-06-12, 05:36 PM
I think any "fix" should be in keeping with the spirit of the class, which is basically derived from the Kung Fu and Kung Fu: The Legend Continues TV series. So I'd only change three things in the class itself:
full BAB
add Heal and Use Magic Device to the class skill list, for more of that mystical mumbo-jumbo touch (in keeping with having Knowledge (religion) on the list)
add another bonus feat at level 14, chosen from the Fighter bonus feat list
Other than the class itself, I'd reduce the cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists to 1/2 of the DMG price.

I think these few changes give the class enough boost to be a reasonable skirmish combatant, plus expand on the flavor extras that keep the Monk from being just an unarmed Fighter.