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View Full Version : 4e RIP Greatsword? And other weapons.



Zeiss
2008-06-10, 03:46 PM
Anyone else find the weapon list to be a little sad now? So many weapons were sort of destroyed in the conversion, i feel my choices are much more limited.

Tengu
2008-06-10, 03:49 PM
Don't underestimate +1 to hit. In 4e it's a worthwhile bonus.

kamikasei
2008-06-10, 03:53 PM
I've heard comments that dual-wielding has been beaten with the nerf-stick (or at least the "unfamiliar and baffling"-stick), but has anyone done a breakdown of weapon styles and how feasible they are / how they compare? I'm thinking two-handed, sword-and-board, x-and-board (can you fight spear-and-shield yet?), dual-wielding, polearms... Though I've not played such a character myself, one of the virtues I've heard attributed to ToB is that many maneuvers give you enough damage to make a longsword and shield a worthwhile combination, and am wondering if 4e carried much of that over.

Dark Tira
2008-06-10, 03:54 PM
What's wrong with the greatsword? Seems like it's where it's always been; second fiddle to the falchion.

Morty
2008-06-10, 03:56 PM
The way I see it, differences between weapons are just as minor as they were in 3ed, with an exception of certain exploits working only with them. It's just now differences in threat range and multiplier are changed into strong/accurate division.

Attilargh
2008-06-10, 03:58 PM
At least the bastard sword doesn't suck utterly anymore, and spear-and-shielding is finally possible.

AmberVael
2008-06-10, 03:58 PM
Don't underestimate +1 to hit. In 4e it's a worthwhile bonus.

This is why I'm thinking longswords are going to be one of the best weapons.
You've got +3 to hit, which is good. You deal 1d8 damage- or 1d8+1 if you use it two handed.
Look at the picture here:

Greatsword: +3 to hit, 1d10 damage (with both hands used)
Longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8 damage (in one hand) or 1d8+1 (with both hands).

Average comes out to 5.5 damage on both, with the longsword having a smaller range (which I think is a good thing- less chance to it).
However, a longsword is also more versatile than the greatsword since you can put it in one hand as well as two. It also weighs less.


The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...

BobTheDog
2008-06-10, 04:00 PM
*snip* (can you fight spear-and-shield yet?) *snip*

Spear = simple one-handed weapon (+2, 1d8, versatile)

Yes you can. :smallsmile:

Attilargh
2008-06-10, 04:01 PM
Another benefit is that Power Attack grants a higher damage bonus if used with a two-handed weapon.

BobTheDog
2008-06-10, 04:02 PM
This is why I'm thinking longswords are going to be one of the best weapons.
You've got +3 to hit, which is good. You deal 1d8 damage- or 1d8+1 if you use it two handed.
Look at the picture here:

Greatsword: +3 to hit, 1d10 damage (with both hands used)
Longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8 damage (in one hand) or 1d8+1 (with both hands).

Average comes out to 5.5 damage on both, with the longsword having a smaller range (which I think is a good thing- less chance to it).
However, a longsword is also more versatile than the greatsword since you can put it in one hand as well as two. It also weighs less.


The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...

IIRC, the consensus is that the +1 damage from versatile doesn't multiply with x[W] powers. So a 3[W] with a longsword deals 3d8+1, not 3d8+3. A greatsword comes out ahead in that case.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-10, 04:03 PM
Well, I'm fairly certain that the +1 to damage for the longsword isn't multiplied like the base die is for powers. So 5[W] for a great sword would average 50 or so, and the longsword 41. So eh, around 10 more damage. Not horrible.

And don't you still get more out of your strength in 4e? Or did they remove that?

kc0bbq
2008-06-10, 04:06 PM
The problem now with two handed weapons is that there isn't any benefit besides a higher damage die, and that AC bonus from a shield looks mighty nice... if you're up against something that can't hit you, just use a versatile one handed weapon and drop your shield for the time being. Same average damage...
Greatswords do more damage on a critical, more average damage from powers, significantly more on criticals with powers.

Bigger [W] is a big enough deal to make them equivalent in the long run.

AmberVael
2008-06-10, 04:06 PM
@Attilargh: I'm no longer sure power attack is worth it at all. Besides, even if it IS something you want to consider- would you rather have an extra +1 damage from using power attack with a greatsword, or an extra +1 or +2 defense from being able to hold a shield? The damage bonus is tiny... AC bonus is the difference between you and death.


@Bob:

Versatile weapons are one-handed, but you can use them two-handed. If you do, you deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for the
weapon.
Damage for the weapon. Weapon damage.... I think that should count for powers, no?

@ kc0bbq:
Wrong. Greatsword does not have the high crit property- it does normal crit damage. It does not have higher average damage than a longsword used in two hands (in fact, it can score lower, giving a higher chance to have a poor roll)

Attilargh
2008-06-10, 04:07 PM
Myatar: They removed it.

Vael: "A [W] in a damage expression stands for your weapon’s damage dice."

Also, worth depends on your point of view. After all, you don't need AC if there's no-one to stab you, and one point of damage may be all that stands between you and the enemy's death.

kc0bbq
2008-06-10, 04:14 PM
@ kc0bbq:
Wrong. Greatsword does not have the high crit property- it does normal crit damage. It does not have higher average damage than a longsword used in two hands (in fact, it can score lower, giving a higher chance to have a poor roll)It does more damage on a crit. Longsword does 9, Greatsword does 10. Just from [W] on a [7W] power you go from 57 to 70 damage without other modifiers.

It's significant.

clericwithnogod
2008-06-10, 04:26 PM
Weapons have to be judeged based upon more than just chart. Feats, class abilities, powers and paragon paths all add to the overall power of a weapon.

Some weapons will only be optimal for certain characters. Greatsword is inferior to Bastard Sword, but Bastard Sword costs a feat for some characters who may get more benefit than +1 damage from another feat. Greatsword is superior to Longsword if you're wielding with two hands and have powers that multiply [W] as the +1 for using both hands on a versatile weapon isn't multiplied. Power Attack damage is also greater with two hands on a weapon and some powers give a bonus when using a weapon two-handed.

Versatile is nice if you want to use a second weapon or implement or something in your off-hand. Using a shield requires STR if your class doesn't grant the proficiency and equipping or stowing a shield is a standard action, which makes switching between sword/shield and sword two-handed on the fly kind of awkward. Quick draw lets you equip a weapon as part of the attack action and sheathing it is a minor, so going from two-handed bastard sword to bastard sword and dagger works better.

As far as two handed fighting goes, using the same type of weapon in two hands doesn't get you much unless you're a ranger or take ranger multiclassing (maybe a little bonus form a feat or the ability to use different magic weapon powers).

But if you use two different types of weapons in combination with powers that provide benefits to different types of weapons, you can get a good bit from it. If you're a ranger, some (maybe most) two-weapon powers define how a power works as Primary Weapon does X and Off-Hand weapon does Y.

If you're outside the ranger framework, the only thing off-hand weapon really means is it can't be very big. So in that way not being a ranger gives you a little more flexibility in what you do with each weapon even though you can't do something with both weapons at once in most cases (though you could mix weapons and add get enough ranger power to get a little of the ranger's 'hit with both' and the non-ranger 'do something different with either'). Or a Ranger could multiclass and get some powers that let him do something different with one or the other of his weapons, though giving up the ability to pump up dual-wielding bastard swords or scimitar may not be worthwhile to him.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 05:30 PM
Since Kamikasei asked, here's the rundown:

Simple Weapons suck, no surprise here.

The maul is, pound by pound, the best weapon you can get. Between Hammer Rhythm and the bludgeoning weapon powers, it's the best weapon if you can use your class features with it. It's the fighter's little darling.

The heavy flail follows it. It's basically a worse version of the maul, with an extra trick up the sleeve.

The glaive is another worthwhile weapon, because of the Polearm Gamble.

And now, the shocking thing: ALL of the heavy blades SUCK. With capital letters, because they really, REALLY suck. They don't do as much damage as a maul or heavy flail, their powers are sucky en extreme, and the proficiency bonus is WAY overrated, as CharOp has demonstrated. The ONLY Heavy Blade weapon that is worth it, besides the polearmish Glaive, is the Scimitar (Yes, the falchion sucks. It sucked in 3.5 too), because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.

Axes are meh. They're the second bananas to the bludgeoning weapons and the heavy flail.

And the big surprise: Light blades are possibly the most powerful weapon group, for a fighter, outside of the maul. Why? Storm of Blows, a level 3 encounter power. If all of it's attacks hit, it can do 4W+4 times all of your bonuses, doing one of the highest damages in the game. Appropriately boosted it climbs to a completely obscene 8W+4 times your bonuses, better than even No Mercy. A rapier is thus one of the most dangerous weapons out there.


As for the styles:

X-'N-Board is as always the second fiddle style. Basically, it's a gimp, because doing obscene damage is a bigger incentive for creatures to attack you and thus a better control.

Dual Wielding is brutally powerful in the hands of a ranger. Everyone else will do jack with it, though rogues will want to pick up two weapons to coat in poison.

Single weapon is, as always, a big joke.

And Two handing is the best one, because the two handers have the biggest damage dice.


Also, one last thing: Anyone who argues that a +1 proficiency bonus makes up for smaller damage dice doesn't know what he's talkin' about. Weapon damage dice is much more important, as is a damage bonus. That's the reason Power attack is still one of the most powerful feats. The sole exception to this rule is daggers, and that's if you take the daggermaster path.

kc0bbq
2008-06-10, 05:42 PM
SAnd the big surprise: Light blades are possibly the most powerful weapon group, for a fighter, outside of the maul. Why? Storm of Blows, a level 3 encounter power. If all of it's attacks hit, it can do 4W+4 times all of your bonuses, doing one of the highest damages in the game. Appropriately boosted it climbs to a completely obscene 8W+4 times your bonuses, better than even No Mercy. A rapier is thus one of the most dangerous weapons out there.That's not what Storm of Blows does?

AmberVael
2008-06-10, 05:45 PM
Okay, instead of me putting up my arguments here (which never seem to be quite accurate...) let me compile facts for everyone else (which I do seem to be good enough at).
We're going to focus on melee weapons and the fighter class until I get more time.


The max damage multipliers of the Fighter class powers are:
-7[W] (from the daily power No Mercy).
-4[W] (a number of encounter powers).
-2[W] (a number of at Will powers- only after 21st level).

The number of times a Fighter power specifies a specific type of weapon (or shield):

Spear 5
Heavy Blade 4
Light blade 4
Axe 4
Flail 4
Hammer 3
Mace 3
Polearm 3
Pick 3
Shields 3

There are a few weapons that allow +3 proficiency bonus instead of +2.

These weapons are:
Dagger, Longsword, Shortsword, Falchion, Greatsword, Bastard Sword, Katar, Rapier, Spiked Chain.

Highest damage weapons:
Maul or Flail (2d6)
In one handed: Bastard Sword (1d10)


Heroic Feats that improve weapons/shields:

-Blade Opportunist (+2 opportunity attacks with light/heavy blades)
-Combat Reflexes (+1 to opportunity attacks)
-Distracting Shield (Enemy hit with Combat Challenge takes -2 attack. Must have shield equipped).
-Dwarven Weapon Training (+2 damage and proficiency with axes and hammers)
-Eladrin Soldier (+2 damage and proficiency with longswords and spears)
-Nimble Blade (+1 attack if you have a light blade AND combat advantage)
-Power Attack (+2 to damage, or +3 with two handed)
-Powerful Charge (+2 damage on charges)
-Shield Push (push a target one square after using combat challenge)
-Two-Weapon Defense (+1 AC with a weapon in each hand)
-Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 melee damage with a weapon in each hand)
-Weapon Focus (+1 damage with specific weapons)


More to come.

Jerthanis
2008-06-10, 06:05 PM
And now, the shocking thing: ALL of the heavy blades SUCK. With capital letters, because they really, REALLY suck. They don't do as much damage as a maul or heavy flail, their powers are sucky en extreme, and the proficiency bonus is WAY overrated, as CharOp has demonstrated. The ONLY Heavy Blade weapon that is worth it, besides the polearmish Glaive, is the Scimitar (Yes, the falchion sucks. It sucked in 3.5 too), because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.


Blade Opportunist with Heavy Blade Opportunity looks pretty good to me, but I'm not the type to break down the mechanics of these things to their mathematical optimums, but it seems like if you take Careful Strike and use it with Heavy Blade Opportunity with a Bastard Sword, you're 5 points ahead of a Maul user in terms of total hit bonus when striking people to keep them from moving away from you. In conjunction with a lot of the Burst 1 fighter powers to mark as many enemies as possible it seems like it's one of the best ways to fulfill your role as a defender.

Then again, I don't really see anything useful to do with them aside from that, so YMMV.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 06:28 PM
That's not what Storm of Blows does?

CustServ says it does. Two attacks, each granting a secondary attack, hence, 4W+4 times bonuses. Sage is slated to confirm it.

Jerthanis: Careful strike is a trap. You can't apply ANY bonus aside of magic weapon bonus to it, no strength bonus, no weapon focus bonus, no PA bonus. With that, the Mauler pushes ahead. If you want to use Heavy Blade opportunist, you use a glaive and combine it with Polearm Gambit.

hamishspence
2008-06-10, 06:55 PM
Rain of Blows level 3, (not Storm of blows, which is level 13) as You make two attacks, and under Weapon says You make a secondary attack( if weapon type fits). so at most 3 times W damage, not 4. They may be errata-ing it, but I don't see where 4 attacks are coming from, cos it just says A secondary attack.

(edit) Can make sense the other way: Weapon keyword is just under Hit keyword, so you must hit with primary attacks, you won't be getting 4W all the time. if you miss with one of the primary attacks, you won't get both secondary attacks, if you miss both primary, you don't get any secondary at all.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 07:23 PM
Rain of Blows level 3, (not Storm of blows, which is level 13) as You make two attacks, and under Weapon says You make a secondary attack( if weapon type fits). so at most 3 times W damage, not 4. They may be errata-ing it, but I don't see where 4 attacks are coming from, cos it just says A secondary attack.

(edit) Can make sense the other way: Weapon keyword is just under Hit keyword, so you must hit with primary attacks, you won't be getting 4W all the time. if you miss with one of the primary attacks, you won't get both secondary attacks, if you miss both primary, you don't get any secondary at all.

Aaah, it was Rain.

Even so, Rain of blows is still the better power. It has a better chance to hit, it does more damage, and it's the best choice except for hammer users.

wodan46
2008-06-10, 07:35 PM
Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 07:39 PM
Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

Exactly. As is, it's a power better than even Dragon's Fangs (Which is, with a well built fighter, the most damaging power when both hits land), and good enough to base a whole character around. With a light blade, you can hop into Swordmaster, and then it goes totally crazy, as you can recover the power when you crit, and crescendo sword will give it back, or give you a daily.

Or, if you start at epic level, just be a Kensei/Demigod and kill everything very, very dead.

Crow
2008-06-10, 07:51 PM
Nowhere does it specify that landing the first hit allows the second hit, nor does it say that the secondary hits are granted only if their respective primary attacks missed.

Most likely, this ability will be deployed with the expectation of 3 of the attacks landing, resulting in about 3[W]+Str Modifier*3 damage. If you have a heavy flail and 18 strength, that means that you are typically landing 6d6+12 damage on a hit.

That means that you can expect 33 average damage on your level 3 encounter power. Thats better than what a striker can do at that level. Its better than the fighter can do at much higher levels, especially if you consider the impact of bonuses. Everything that gives you bonus damage on an attack is TRIPLED on average.

This sounds very similar to Manticore Shot (Ranger encounter power...higher level...23 I think).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 07:54 PM
This sounds very similar to Manticore Shot (Ranger encounter power...higher level...23 I think).

Yes, only Rain of Blows is, probably, THE ultimate power for damage dealing purposes, out of completely insane things like Assasin's Point or Three in One Shot.

Crow
2008-06-10, 07:57 PM
Three in One Shot didn't strike me as all that great, especially since Manticore Shot is an encounter power, while the former is a daily. MS seems like a much better "value".

I am away from my books. What does Assassin's Point do? Is that a Rogue power, or paragon power?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-10, 07:59 PM
Three in One Shot didn't strike me as all that great, especially since Manticore Shot is an encounter power, while the former is a daily. MS seems like a much better "value".

I am away from my books. What does Assassin's Point do? Is that a Rogue power, or paragon power?

A rogue power. 7 W + Dex + Str if you're a brutal scoundrel + twice your SA damage, so either an extra 10d6 or 10d8. The level 29 rogue daily.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-10, 09:47 PM
I just created a simulation comparing a longsword to a battleaxe.

When a fighter with a +4 to hit does a basic attack, they were close to tie (but with the battleaxe doing only slightly better) between AC's 16 and 19. At AC of 20+ the longsword does better. At less then 16 the battleaxe starts getting better.

When you take into account that longswords will hit more often with cleave, you will be able to mark more often, and status effects of powers will take effect more often, those 2 weapons seem quite balanced.

Ardwin Burch
2008-06-10, 10:04 PM
I have a feeling that the Scimitar is going to be a TWF Rangers best friend. Seeing as you can wield one in each hand, the damage has been upped to 1d8, and it is a High Crit weapon, they will be able to do very well as a Striker.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-10, 10:13 PM
The scimitar isn't an off hand weapon? Or is there some feat that allows you to do this.

Ardwin Burch
2008-06-10, 10:14 PM
If you look in the Ranger Class description under the TWF style, it says that you can use one handed weapons in your off-hand.

tyckspoon
2008-06-10, 10:14 PM
The scimitar isn't an off hand weapon? Or is there some feat that allows you to do this.

IIRC, the class feature for the TWF ranger build lets them off-hand any one-handed weapon.

Tengu
2008-06-11, 02:22 AM
Jerthanis: Careful strike is a trap. You can't apply ANY bonus aside of magic weapon bonus to it, no strength bonus, no weapon focus bonus, no PA bonus. With that, the Mauler pushes ahead. If you want to use Heavy Blade opportunist, you use a glaive and combine it with Polearm Gambit.

Sorry, but you have to prove it. Because from what I understand, an attack that deals 1[w] damage doesn't add any stat to damage, but does add damage from other sources.

Saph
2008-06-11, 07:21 AM
because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.

I was wondering when someone would notice this. :P

- Saph

Matthew
2008-06-11, 07:26 AM
The ONLY Heavy Blade weapon that is worth it, besides the polearmish Glaive, is the Scimitar (Yes, the falchion sucks. It sucked in 3.5 too), because of the asskicking scimitar dance. However, it's only good with a ranger. So, believe it or not, 4th edition encourages, from a mechanical standpoint, Drizzt clones.



I was wondering when someone would notice this. :P

Yay! Does being a Dark Elf give you any advantage in this combination apart from the 'usual'?

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-11, 08:48 AM
No, a dark elf does not give you any extra advantage in that combination, but the dark elf powers in this edition are exactly like the ones that Drizzt had. Darkness, and that outlining power.

Ardwin Burch
2008-06-11, 09:42 AM
Man, my friend is gonna be all over a Drizzt build faster than you can say Hi.

Burley
2008-06-11, 10:36 AM
Since we're talking about weapons...mostly...

I'm wondering how good the Eladrin's racial feat Eladrin Soldier is. There's already a lot of talk about the longsword being great, and this extra 2 damage makes it even better. It seems to be one of the best racial feats, also, because it doesn't depend on so many outside sources to get the feat to work.

Is it worth my 1st level Eladrin Warlock to take this feat, or should I stick to Ritual Caster?

wodan46
2008-06-11, 10:39 AM
Drow racial powers give Combat Advantage. While they are good for any striker, they make better rogues than rangers.

So its not Drizzt with 2 mighty scimitars. Its Drizzt with 2 teeny daggers of poking. He'll do more damage than the scimitar Drizzt of course.

As Eladrin, be a Wizard, then take Eladrin Soldier and go for the Spiral Tower paragon path. Fun times.

Fredricus
2008-06-11, 10:41 AM
The bugbear ranger is even better. Wielding two Mauls. Speaking of being between a hammer and an anvil.:smallbiggrin:

Scintillatus
2008-06-11, 10:42 AM
Can't wield two mauls, because two-handed weapons don't count as one-handed for larger creatures, IIRC. You can wield Large versions of one-handed versatile weapons, however.

lukelightning
2008-06-11, 10:45 AM
Where did my beloved kukri go? I guess the katar ate it.

Fredricus
2008-06-11, 10:51 AM
Medium sized Mauls. Can't find the cost of making larger weapons, do they exist?

Scintillatus
2008-06-11, 10:56 AM
Actually I was wrong, you can use two-handed weapons of one size category smaller, but the weapon size rules are on page 220.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 11:00 AM
Overall, I'd say each weapon has its own use. Can anyone offer a weapon that is strictly inferior to others? Except unarmed attacks, which are weak even after you take the 2 weapon fighting feats (HA now I can use my left arm as well).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-11, 11:07 AM
Drow racial powers give Combat Advantage. While they are good for any striker, they make better rogues than rangers.

So its not Drizzt with 2 mighty scimitars. Its Drizzt with 2 teeny daggers of poking. He'll do more damage than the scimitar Drizzt of course.

As Eladrin, be a Wizard, then take Eladrin Soldier and go for the Spiral Tower paragon path. Fun times.

Nope, a TWF scimitar ranger kicks the rogue in the groin and laughs at him. He's better alright.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 11:14 AM
Not if the rogue sneak attacks you with dazing strike. Rogues can match Rangers when it comes to ridiculous output, except that Rangers are better at hitting multiple targets with their flurries and Rogues are better at killing single targets. Rogues and Warlocks will generally win any 1v1 duel, except maybe against a tough Cleric who keeps healing himself.

marjan
2008-06-11, 11:36 AM
Overall, I'd say each weapon has its own use. Can anyone offer a weapon that is strictly inferior to others? Except unarmed attacks, which are weak even after you take the 2 weapon fighting feats (HA now I can use my left arm as well).

I think that spiked chain falls into that category. Less dmg than both polearm and flails and requires a feat to use. It does however add 1 more to-hit than both of those groups.

Yakk
2008-06-11, 11:39 AM
If you assume you have a 50% chance to connect, then each +1 is worth about +10% damage, and each -1 worth -10% damage.

At low levels, using low level powers, about 1/2 to 2/3 of your damage is from your weapon dice. Going with 50% is a half-assed rule of thumb.

So a 1d10 @ +3 vs a 2d6 @ +2 weapon...

Half of your damage going up by 27%, vs hitting 10% more often. The 2d6+2 weapon ends up doing more damage.

On the other hand, abilities that only work when the hit lands work better with the +3 to hit weapon.

CharOp boards usually attempt to eliminate the to-hit problem by piling on an assload of to-hit modifiers until the attack is nearly guaranteed.

...

Oh, and Cage of Steel? Str vs Reflex for 4[W] damage? Kick-ass. :)

That being said, the level 3 power shouldn't be adding str-to-damage on the secondary attack. We are talking about a light blade extra hit. :p

wodan46
2008-06-11, 11:45 AM
Flails don't have reach, I don't think, so Spiked Chain's competition is the Polearm/Spear stuff only. You state yourself that it has better to hit or something, the probably compensates. Don't have book handy, can't check.

marjan
2008-06-11, 11:54 AM
If you assume you have a 50% chance to connect, then each +1 is worth about +10% damage, and each -1 worth -10% damage.


Each +/-1 is +/-5% dmg, not 10.


Flails don't have reach, I don't think, so Spiked Chain's competition is the Polearm/Spear stuff only. You state yourself that it has better to hit or something, the probably compensates. Don't have book handy, can't check.

No, flails don't have reach (but reach sucks in 4e - you only threaten adjacent squares). And I don't think +1 to-hit compensates for a feat and -0.5 dmg compared to spear/halberd and 2 compared to maul. And if you really want that +1 you can get it with Weapon Focus.

Dark Tira
2008-06-11, 12:07 PM
No, flails don't have reach (but reach sucks in 4e - you only threaten adjacent squares). And I don't think +1 to-hit compensates for a feat and -0.5 dmg compared to spear/halberd and 2 compared to maul. And if you really want that +1 you can get it with Weapon Focus.

Actually Weapon Focus is +1 damage, not +1 to hit.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 12:17 PM
Actually, reach no long allows long range opfire attacks, it still allows you to attack enemies without provoking them yourself after retreating.

Also keep in mind that the Spiked Chain is a Flail type weapon if I recall, so its powers specialize in disabling and immobilizing opponents, whereupon you can continue to whup on them with your Chain at a distance.

marjan
2008-06-11, 12:20 PM
Actually Weapon Focus is +1 damage, not +1 to hit.

Yes, you're right. So going with spiked chain you get +3 to-hit and 5 dmg with one feat, going with maul you get +2 to-hit and 8 dmg with one feat, and going with halberd you get +2 to-hit and 6.5 dmg with one feat. I still think it is not worth it.

Hoggmaster
2008-06-11, 12:33 PM
Only your spiked chain requires a feat to use (unless I misread the above statment ... a thousand apologies if I did so!)

marjan
2008-06-11, 12:39 PM
I just realized that Scythes are now simple weapons (which I approve of). Though it raises a question: Since they were exotic in 3.0, martial in 3.5 and simple now, what will they be in 4.5e? Will they be treated as unarmed attacks? :smalltongue:

lukelightning
2008-06-11, 12:53 PM
I just realized that Scythes are now simple weapons (which I approve of). Though it raises a question: Since they were exotic in 3.0, martial in 3.5 and simple now, what will they be in 4.5e? Will they be treated as unarmed attacks? :smalltongue:

Improvised weapons, as they should be. Scythes are for killing grass, not people.

marjan
2008-06-11, 12:53 PM
Only your spiked chain requires a feat to use (unless I misread the above statment ... a thousand apologies if I did so!)

I was accounting for Weapon Focus.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 01:12 PM
I'm pretty sure Spiked Chain is NOT exotic, meaning you don't need a feat to use.

Exotic weapons are generally a step better than regular weapons, and you are basically paying a feat to get that step.

AmberVael
2008-06-11, 01:33 PM
I'm pretty sure Spiked Chain is NOT exotic, meaning you don't need a feat to use.

Exotic weapons are generally a step better than regular weapons, and you are basically paying a feat to get that step.

There is no such thing as an exotic weapon. There are, however, Superior Weapons.

Spiked Chain is a superior weapon.
It deals 2d4 damage, has +3 proficiency, is a flail, and has reach. It weighs 10lbs and costs 30 gold.

marjan
2008-06-11, 01:34 PM
I'm pretty sure Spiked Chain is NOT exotic, meaning you don't need a feat to use.

Exotic weapons are generally a step better than regular weapons, and you are basically paying a feat to get that step.

Not exotic, but superior (new word for exotic weapons).

EDIT: ninja'd, damn.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 01:44 PM
For Reach weapons, attack is probably more important than damage, and Flails have more useful powers for dealing with distant targets than Polearm/Spear/Axes do.

By the way, the artwork for the Maul is pathetic. Who seriously believes that such a small hammer can do more damage than a Greatsword?

Chronicled
2008-06-11, 01:56 PM
By the way, the artwork for the Maul is pathetic. Who seriously believes that such a small hammer can do more damage than a Greatsword?

How about, everyone who realizes how effective maces were, and that the size of a weapon doesn't directly correspond to how well you can hurt someone with it?

AmberVael
2008-06-11, 02:12 PM
How about, everyone who realizes how effective maces were, and that the size of a weapon doesn't directly correspond to how well you can hurt someone with it?

Yeah, pretty much.
A well applied knife can be as effective as a greatsword.
For that matter, a punch can kill a person. A small stick that hits someone in the right place can disable them and/or leave them in pain for weeks.
Giant weapons are for people who are overcompensating. :smalltongue:

AKA_Bait
2008-06-11, 02:45 PM
CustServ says it does. Two attacks, each granting a secondary attack, hence, 4W+4 times bonuses. Sage is slated to confirm it.



Can you show me what exactly custserv said? Reading the power, it seems like you might be right given a strictly RAW reading. Seems like a candidate for errata though, since looking at it I get the feeling that they only intended it to be two hits.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-11, 02:52 PM
Each +/-1 is +/-5% dmg, not 10.

Yes and no.

Each +/- 1 is an extra five percentage points of damage, but depending on what you're hitting on, it might be significantly more as a percentage of your current average damage.

If you're currently hitting on 20s then (ignoring critical hits for a moment) a +1 to hit effectively *doubles* your damage output, because you hit twice as often.

Basically every +1 to hit increases your average damage by (Average Weapon Damage)*.05, and every +1 damage increases your average damage by 1*(Chance of hitting).

Closet_Skeleton
2008-06-11, 02:57 PM
Are Bucklers still strapped to the arm or have Wizards finally actually checked real life or ditched bucklers completly. If the've done either of those (with preferance for making bucklers resemble real life) I might actually have some hope for 4E.


For Reach weapons, attack is probably more important than damage, and Flails have more useful powers for dealing with distant targets than Polearm/Spear/Axes do.

By the way, the artwork for the Maul is pathetic. Who seriously believes that such a small hammer can do more damage than a Greatsword?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure#Formula

The massive mauls in most fantasy art would be pathetic in real life, and that's assuming that you could lift them. Look at real world war hammers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer

In real life those were 100 times more popular than massive swords.

AmberVael
2008-06-11, 02:59 PM
Bucklers are gone.
>.>
<.<
NO BUCKLERS FOR YOU! :smalltongue:

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-11, 03:01 PM
Can you show me what exactly custserv said? Reading the power, it seems like you might be right given a strictly RAW reading. Seems like a candidate for errata though, since looking at it I get the feeling that they only intended it to be two hits.

I think the key to interpreting "Rain of Blows" is to look at the indentation (which is way more attention than I like to pay to RPG rules).

There's an important difference between the following:

Attack: (Effect)
Hit: (Effect)
Secondary Attack: (Effect)

vs

Attack: (Effect)
Hit: (Effect)
>Secondary Attack: (Effect)

The "secondary target/secondary attack" effect for Rain of Blows is indented, which implies that it is contingent upon the Hit, and therefore you should get one per attack.

There's also no other interpretation which makes sense to me under the (very careful) structure they've used for 4E powers. If it was just supposed to be two attacks, they would just say "two attacks" and not include a secondary attack. If it was supposed to be four attacks, they'd just say "four attacks". The only interpretation that makes sense to me is two attacks, each with a secondary attack if they hit.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-06-11, 03:07 PM
Bucklers are gone.
>.>
<.<
NO BUCKLERS FOR YOU! :smalltongue:

Good.

It's better that they get rid of them rather than continue to insult anyone who could do a second's research into how medieval shields work.

Yet people will probably complain and the old AD&D/3rd Edition bucklers will be reintroduced in some supplement.

AmberVael
2008-06-11, 03:10 PM
As an amusing side note, I noticed a little slip in the rules/wording that allows you to do something that wasn't intended at all (but isn't really worth it considering the situation).

When wielding a light shield you can hold other items in that hand, but can't attack, yes? So you can hold a weapon in that hand (but you can't chop people).

The two weapon fighting feat says "While holding a melee weapon in each hand" and has nothing to do with whether you can actually ATTACK people with that secondary weapon. So you could get that +1 damage and a +1 shield bonus just by holding a dagger in your hand. :smalltongue:
Of course, since using two weapons is only really good for rangers, and then you need to be able to attack with the weapon, I see no use for this. But it is amusing in concept.

Fhaolan
2008-06-11, 07:11 PM
Good.

It's better that they get rid of them rather than continue to insult anyone who could do a second's research into how medieval shields work.

Yet people will probably complain and the old AD&D/3rd Edition bucklers will be reintroduced in some supplement.

*sigh*

The D&D buckler is *not* based on the European buckler that has a long and impressive history, with many variations upon the theme of a tiny center-punch shield used to parry and punch.

The D&D buckler is based on the Middle Eastern and Byzantine buckler, common during the Crusades and prior. Archers and heavy cavalry (Kataphraktoi) both used this tiny, flat shield strapped almost over the elbow on the forearm. Many Europeans became familiar with these bucklers during the Crusades.

You can argue that this item doesn't belong in D&D because it's not the European item of the same name, however you cannot argue that the item did not exist, as it did.

This using the same name for two different items is a common confusion for those dealing with weapon and armor classification. In this case, both small shields have been called 'bucklers' for a very, very long time. The Europeans who encountered the Middle Eastern version called it that as it superficially resembled the bucklers they were used to. The same way the 'buzzard' of the New World resembles the 'buzzard' of the Old World only because they are both birds.

JaxGaret
2008-06-11, 07:25 PM
I think the key to interpreting "Rain of Blows" is to look at the indentation (which is way more attention than I like to pay to RPG rules).

There's an important difference between the following:

Attack: (Effect)
Hit: (Effect)
Secondary Attack: (Effect)

vs

Attack: (Effect)
Hit: (Effect)
>Secondary Attack: (Effect)

The "secondary target/secondary attack" effect for Rain of Blows is indented, which implies that it is contingent upon the Hit, and therefore you should get one per attack.

There's also no other interpretation which makes sense to me under the (very careful) structure they've used for 4E powers. If it was just supposed to be two attacks, they would just say "two attacks" and not include a secondary attack. If it was supposed to be four attacks, they'd just say "four attacks". The only interpretation that makes sense to me is two attacks, each with a secondary attack if they hit.

Here's the whole section:

Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: The same or a different target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

I see three attacks. The two primary attacks on one target, and the one secondary attack on any target. The secondary attack doesn't refer to the primary attack at all. It's simply an extra attack added because of the weapon you are using.

Compare it to Giant's Wake, a 13th level Fighter power that refers to the secondary attack right in the Hit section.

My interpretation would be pretty comparable to the other 3rd level Fighter encounter powers.

Dark Tira
2008-06-11, 07:58 PM
Here's the whole section:

Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: The same or a different target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

I see three attacks. The two primary attacks on one target, and the one secondary attack on any target. The secondary attack doesn't refer to the primary attack at all. It's simply an extra attack added because of the weapon you are using.

Compare it to Giant's Wake, a 13th level Fighter power that refers to the secondary attack right in the Hit section.

My interpretation would be pretty comparable to the other 3rd level Fighter encounter powers.

I concur with Jax on this one. Although the 2 hits and 4 hits may be valid interpretations the templating seems to support 3. The indentation seems to be used with all the "weapon:" effects.

marjan
2008-06-11, 08:51 PM
Just found another oddity: Unarmed Attacks deal same damage as Improvised Weapons, which makes me wonder why would bother picking up something when you can just kick them for same effect? Not saying that beating someone with a dead fish isn't cool, but still...

Helgraf
2008-06-11, 09:10 PM
Just found another oddity: Unarmed Attacks deal same damage as Improvised Weapons, which makes me wonder why would bother picking up something when you can just kick them for same effect? Not saying that beating someone with a dead fish isn't cool, but still...

Do Improvised weapons provoke Opportunity Attacks?
If not, then an improvised weapon is superior to an unarmed strike.

Dark Tira
2008-06-11, 09:12 PM
Do Improvised weapons provoke Opportunity Attacks?
If not, then an improvised weapon is superior to an unarmed strike.
Actually I don't think either of them do. You can throw an improvised weapon though.

marjan
2008-06-11, 09:28 PM
Do Improvised weapons provoke Opportunity Attacks?
If not, then an improvised weapon is superior to an unarmed strike.

Interesting but they don't have a description of their weapon group, they only appear in table. So I guess, they wouldn't provoke them.

tbarrie
2008-06-13, 12:08 PM
I concur with Jax on this one. Although the 2 hits and 4 hits may be valid interpretations the templating seems to support 3. The indentation seems to be used with all the "weapon:" effects.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure those indented "Weapon:" clauses are to be read as part of the paragraph they follow. Look at Armour-Piercing Thrust: the bonus for spears or light blades could easily be described in a single entry, but they included two "Weapon:" clauses because the attack bonus is logically part of the "Attack:" paragraph, and the damage bonus is part of the "Hit" paragraph. Also look at Silverstep (level 13): they don't explicitly say in the "Weapon:" clauses that one only works on a hit and the other any time - that information is conveyed by where they appear.

For Rain of Blows to be a flat three attacks when used with an appropriate weapon, it would look something like this:

Attack: Strength vs AC, two attacks
Weapon: If you're wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make three attacks instead.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage

(Except that I can't get the forum to respect my indentation, except by putting it in a "CODE" block, which would then require horizontal scrolling to read, or using "INDENT" and introducing unwanted double-spacing. But you get the idea.)

thereaper
2008-06-14, 11:53 AM
Just found another oddity: Unarmed Attacks deal same damage as Improvised Weapons, which makes me wonder why would bother picking up something when you can just kick them for same effect? Not saying that beating someone with a dead fish isn't cool, but still...

Some of them can be used in two hands. And those ones are certainly better than unarmed strikes.

Siosilvar
2008-06-14, 12:04 PM
You can't wield an unarmed strike in two hands?!?
That gives me an idea...

Yakk
2008-06-14, 02:18 PM
Each +/-1 is +/-5% dmg, not 10.

No, if you assume a roughly 50% chance to hit as the baseline, each +/-1 changes your damage per attack by +/- 10%.

Assume your average damage per hit is 10.

Assume your chance to hit is 50% -- ie, 11+ on a d20.

You do 5 damage, on average, per attempt to hit.

Now give a +1 to hit. You now hit on a 10+ on a d20 -- 55%.

You now do 5.5 damage, on average, per attempt to hit. 5.5 / 5.0 = 1.1, or 10% more damage per attempt to hit than before.

It works the other way.

Mike_G
2008-06-14, 02:40 PM
You can't wield an unarmed strike in two hands?!?
That gives me an idea...


You can if you're Captain Kirk.

Wren
2008-06-14, 03:14 PM
so is the bonus damage from using a purely two handed weapon the same as the versatile description?

Attilargh
2008-06-14, 03:25 PM
The bonus damage? There's no bonus damage for wielding a two-handed weapon, unless you mean the 3-for-2 discount on Power Attack.

marjan
2008-06-14, 03:27 PM
No, if you assume a roughly 50% chance to hit as the baseline, each +/-1 changes your damage per attack by +/- 10%.

Assume your average damage per hit is 10.

Assume your chance to hit is 50% -- ie, 11+ on a d20.

You do 5 damage, on average, per attempt to hit.

Now give a +1 to hit. You now hit on a 10+ on a d20 -- 55%.

You now do 5.5 damage, on average, per attempt to hit. 5.5 / 5.0 = 1.1, or 10% more damage per attempt to hit than before.

It works the other way.

We were working on different percents here. I see now what you were talking about. Thought you said +10% of base damage, not the damage done.

Wren
2008-06-14, 03:32 PM
The bonus damage? There's no bonus damage for wielding a two-handed weapon, unless you mean the 2-for-3 discount on Power Attack.

description for versatile says you do one extra point of damage when wielding the weapon two handed. I guess it could just be for versatile. that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, with a bastard sword inflicting more damage two handed than a greatsword for some reason.

Mike_G
2008-06-14, 03:55 PM
Do you still get the 1.5 x Str bonus when using a weapon two handed?

Wren
2008-06-14, 04:00 PM
Do you still get the 1.5 x Str bonus when using a weapon two handed?

I haven't seen anything that says that, so I'd say no. Could be wrong, but there's really no specific entries on two handed weapons except on who cannot use them (halfling blacksmiths must be pretty inept)

Scintillatus
2008-06-14, 04:09 PM
You are wrong. Very wrong.

+1 bonus to damage when using a versatile weapon two-handed. In addition, Power Attack gives a significantly higher result when used two-handed. There is no 1.5x rule any more, but there are damage bonuses (not even including the powers or weapon types) in place for using a two-handed weapon or using a versatile weapon two-handed.

Yakk
2008-06-14, 05:04 PM
description for versatile says you do one extra point of damage when wielding the weapon two handed. I guess it could just be for versatile. that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, with a bastard sword inflicting more damage two handed than a greatsword for some reason.

Yes, it does more damage than a two handed sword when used two handed. But to use it, you need to take a superior weapon feat.


We were working on different percents here. I see now what you were talking about. Thought you said +10% of base damage, not the damage done.

As it happens, adding +10% to the average hit damage ... increases your average damage done by 10%. Adding +1 to your hit chance when you have a 50% chance of hitting ... increases your average damage done by 10%.

Ie: +10% damage per hit is about as good as +1 chance to hit, assuming the monsters are balanced around being missed half of the time.

Wren
2008-06-14, 05:08 PM
Alrighty then.