What happens to Eugene if Julia dies?

[silvadel]

I mean that would be the whole bloodline. The oath now can not be fulfilled.

First off, if someone OTHER than his bloodline were to destroy the lich would that do anything with regard to the oath? Or say if Xykon got too close to the snarl and got destroyed?

Even an immortal lich will eventually die even if he takes over the whole world. Either that or you would have a raistlin moment where he becomes the only inhabitant of a desolated world -- I dont think that would work out well for Eugene....

At any rate though, Would he be permanently trapped in limbo outside the planes, or is there somewhere for oathspirits who have completely failed to go?

The celestials do not seem to have an overabundance of pity.

[Kato]

Hm.... I think if Xykon's destroyed, the oath is done for. The celestials won't punish him an eternity, cause it were not his children, who did it.
But if Xykon is not killed... why should he die? He's an immortal. he could be the last thing in the universe, if he avoids deadly damage till then. It#s not like he could die of old age, or wither his bones after some time? o.o

[chiasaur11]

Hope that Celia is going to "be in a family way" from Roy?

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think the Celestials are pitiless (they were with Eugene due to how he gave up on the Oath before lumbering Roy with it). I'm assuming Eugene would have gotten into Celestia if someone else destroyed Xykon due to how bringing him back solely for Roy or Julia to kill him would be too risky (even though Xykon was Venerable befoe becoming a Lich, he could easily be a threat to most characters due to his high level).

[Isolder74]

The only thing the Blood Oath requires is that someone defeats Xykon once and for all. It doesn't have to be a member of the family. For example a Cleric could find Eugene's Blood Oath written somewhere and decide that he/she is going to quest to put this soul to rest by defeating Xykon and it will be just as valid then if Roy did it.

[Grey Watcher]

Hm.... I think if Xykon's destroyed, the oath is done for. The celestials won't punish him an eternity, cause it were not his children, who did it.
But if Xykon is not killed... why should he die? He's an immortal. he could be the last thing in the universe, if he avoids deadly damage till then. It#s not like he could die of old age, or wither his bones after some time? o.o

I think what silvadel means is that, if Xykon is successful at conquering the world then, sooner or later, someone is going to take him out. Freedom fighters, a new dictator who wants to take charge, whoever. Supreme dictator of the world is a very conspicuous position to be in.

[David Argall]

By the letter of the Oath, Jerome or his heirs must do the deed. Which means that if the Lawful deva wants to be all lawful about it, Jerome could be pretty screwed. "I will not do A until I have done the impossible" is a valid limitation.
Now a minor loophole is that heirs is a different word than descendents. Anybody who got remembered in Jerome's will is an heir, as is anybody who they remember in their wills. And anybody who ends up with the family sword might be considered an heir too. So Jerome may never run out of heirs. However, they may not be interested in taking on an epic level lich, and somebody with no relationship at all might take him out. So he is pretty well limited to Roy & Julia as a practical matter.

Pretty much Jerome is going to have to fall on the mercy of the court and hope the act of a stranger is good enough.

[Worira]

Jerome?pointless text

[Mauve Shirt]

Where did you get Jerome, David? This is the second time you've called him that. :smallconfused:

[Red XIV]

What happens to Eugene if Julia dies?

I mean that would be the whole bloodline. The oath now can not be fulfilled.
He has to wait for somebody to get around to ressurrecting Roy and/or Julia, I guess. Either that, or he's left with hoping there's something Celia hasn't told anybody about yet, if you catch my drift.

[chibibar]

As far as the Oath that we know it...... it has to be a descendant (diva said so right?)

If the lich is killed... LG = follow the letter of the law (the way I understand it) thus Eugene is screwed. NG/CG would let him in because technically the lich is destroy for good.

[SPoD]

It absolutely cannot be a case of, "If Julia dies, the whole thing gets called off," because if it were, the family could game the system by deliberately killing Julia, then raising her and Roy afterwards. The oath MUST stick around after Julia's death, or it is virtually meaningless.

The exact wording from Start of Darkness of the Blood Oath is:


I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the sorcerer.

This implies that Eugene DOES need his heirs to do the deed, but technically it does not require Xykon's destruction, merely "horrible vengeance".

[Red XIV]

Apparently Roy slamming Xykon into one of the gates and temporarily destroying his body wasn't sufficient to qualify as "horrible vengeance", though.

[silvadel]

Ummm -- if it is horrible vengeance, wouldnt throwing him into a gate so he got his body destroyed count?

I mean really, how much different would it be if they killed an epic human who get ressurrected later?

Kind of puts a unique twist to things if you not only have to kill X but make sure X stays dead (brings you to the same problem they had with nale in jail -- you kill him he just ends up raised).

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Actually this makes me wonder --- did the above count as fulfilling the oath but the devas didnt say it that way because they do not think eugene has discharged things yet(no redemption?) when they let Roy in -- plus because they REALLY DO want Xykon done for once and for all and deflating Roy's sense of purpose for this wouldnt "do" as well?

[Helanna]

Why do I get a weird feeling that we will eventually learn the answer to this?

Julia had best watch out!

[Raging Gene Ray]

Maybe one or more of the Greenhilts will become Deathless or at least get special permission to manifest on the Material Plane.

[ABB]

The only thing the Blood Oath requires is that someone defeats Xykon once and for all. It doesn't have to be a member of the family. For example a Cleric could find Eugene's Blood Oath written somewhere and decide that he/she is going to quest to put this soul to rest by defeating Xykon and it will be just as valid then if Roy did it.
Hi, can I have the source on your tagline pictures?

[Isolder74]

Hi, can I have the source on your tagline pictures?

Such requests should be done with a PM.

[Ramien]

Apparently Roy slamming Xykon into one of the gates and temporarily destroying his body wasn't sufficient to qualify as "horrible vengeance", though.

Considering it merely delayed his plans, and the fact that he had a built in way to recover from such injury, it wasn't very horrible.

Enacting "horrible vengeance" upon Xykon would entail either destroying him utterly, including the phylactery, or possibly by tossing him into the snarl and letting it destroy what's left of his soul.

Alternatively, someone would have to crush Xykon's spirit utterly and irrevocably. Destroy any chance of his plans succeeding, find the one thing he wants most of all and make him realize that all his power will never let him have it, ever.

Personally, I think Roy sitting inside an anti-magic field drinking coffee would come close to the second.

[David Argall]

Where did you get Jerome, David? This is the second time you've called him that. :smallconfused:

Dang, I have got to have that brain surgery rescheduled.

[fang_q]

Then we get to laugh at Eugene, of course.

[Occasional Sage]

Considering it merely delayed his plans, and the fact that he had a built in way to recover from such injury, it wasn't very horrible.

Enacting "horrible vengeance" upon Xykon would entail either destroying him utterly, including the phylactery, or possibly by tossing him into the snarl and letting it destroy what's left of his soul.

Alternatively, someone would have to crush Xykon's spirit utterly and irrevocably. Destroy any chance of his plans succeeding, find the one thing he wants most of all and make him realize that all his power will never let him have it, ever.

Personally, I think Roy sitting inside an anti-magic field drinking coffee would come close to the second.

I'd suggest permanently lowering Xykon's Charisma to nine or less, removing his spellcasting ability, as a solid definition of "horrible vengeance."

[The Gremlin]

If Xykon was destroyed by something other than a Greenhilt, I think that Greenhilt Oathspirits who tried to fulfill the Oath to the last would be able to pass on, while those who had stopped trying would not.

[Paladin29]

If Xykon is destroyed by a non-greenhilt, perhaps Eugene file is redirected by the deva to the Neutral Good afterlife...

[AceOfFools]

Ummm -- if it is horrible vengeance, wouldnt throwing him into a gate so he got his body destroyed count?


Hey, that wasn't that bad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html).

[The Gremlin]

If Xykon is destroyed by a non-greenhilt, perhaps Eugene file is redirected by the deva to the Neutral Good afterlife...

No, because unlike Roy (and possibly Julia)Eugene did not die trying to destroy Xykon, or did not succeed and thus retire to a peaceful rest, throwing the whole strip's plot into jeopardy, he stopped looking for Xykon and went back to his home--not even out of real love for his family (or, more specifically, Roy), but out of laziness--and did not try again, despite the amount of chances he had. So to the original question, yes, yes I think that Eugene should be stuck in limbo until either a Deva takes pity on him, or somehow somebody raises Xykon so a member of the Greenhilt family can kill him properly.
So now I say to Eugene, 'Good luck with that'.

[Teron]

Technically, Eugene or his heirs have to do it - conceivably, naming someone outside their family as a legal heir might work.

[Red XIV]

Technically, Eugene or his heirs have to do it - conceivably, naming someone outside their family as a legal heir might work.
So if, for example, Roy had made out a will and left some of his possessions to the rest of the OOTS, they would count as heirs and thus any of them killing Xykon would free Eugene from the oath?

[DreadSpoon]

But if Xykon is not killed... why should he die?

I haven't kept up with how this works in 3e (much less 4e), but in older editions a Lich would eventually "transcend." He may or may not leave some small essence of himself on the material plane (making a demi-lich), but either way he himself would essentially cease to be anything consequential (a demi-lich was mostly just an echo, or almost just sort of a last joke left behind by the lich, although it often got turned into "just a more powerful form for the lich" by certain writers/GMs).


If the lich is killed... LG = follow the letter of the law

They let Roy in despite the letter of the Law. Stop confusing Lawful Good with Lawful Zealot. Forcing someone to suffer for all eternity due to a drunken oath may satisfy Law, but it would certainly not satisfy Good.

Lawful Good does not mean "absolutely Lawful, and Good when it doesn't get in the way of Law;" it means "Good, believing in the power of Law to support and protect the innocent." Contrast to Chaotic Good, which does not mean, "Good, but only when allowed to live in complete anarchy," but instead means, "Good, and believes that personal liberty and freedom is what makes life best for all." Neutral Good... well, Neutral is the concept that keeps confusing most people since TSR/WotC can't make up their minds if it means "doesn't care" or if it means "requires a balance" or if it means both. Thank the stars that 4e cleaned up that mess. (Although I think 4e could've done better... but that's totally off topic.)

[Red XIV]

Lawful Good does not mean "absolutely Lawful, and Good when it doesn't get in the way of Law;" it means "Good, believing in the power of Law to support and protect the innocent."
Exactly. People seem to always think that the "Law" part of "Lawful Good" is of overriding importance, when in fact they're meant to be equally important. If it's all about Law, and Good becomes an afterthought, then you're moving toward becoming Lawful Neutral.

[Remirach]

Stop confusing Lawful Good with Lawful Zealot. Forcing someone to suffer for all eternity due to a drunken oath may satisfy Law, but it would certainly not satisfy Good.

Lawful Good does not mean "absolutely Lawful, and Good when it doesn't get in the way of Law;" it means "Good, believing in the power of Law to support and protect the innocent."
Isn't that just emphasizing one axis over the other? Alternately, consider:

"Lawful Good does not mean "absolutely Good, and Lawful when it's convenient," it means "Lawful, believing in the power of Good to maintain stability and integrity.""

[The Gremlin]

Technically, Eugene or his heirs have to do it - conceivably, naming someone outside their family as a legal heir might work.

Actually, in 'Start of Darkness' the angel says that Eugene can only appear to his blood-kin. So it's at this point that things get a bit confusing...

[Ramien]

I'd suggest permanently lowering Xykon's Charisma to nine or less, removing his spellcasting ability, as a solid definition of "horrible vengeance."

I thought about that, but undead are immune to ability drain. You could damage his Charisma, but it would come back slowly.

[David Argall]

Actually, in 'Start of Darkness' the angel says that Eugene can only appear to his blood-kin. So it's at this point that things get a bit confusing...

Apples and oranges. Nothing in the oath requires Eugene to communicate with anyone about the Oath in order for it to be successfully removed. That is just a good idea because otherwise his kin are unlikely to do the job. It is simply a different limitation that means he can only manifest to Roy.

[King of Nowhere]

I think in that big book they have detailed rules for this case. My bet is that they force him to stay in limbo for a certain time, and in the end they still let him in. After all, the punishment was "being excluded from afterlife for some time", not indefinitely.
I also want to point out that Eugene didn't left the oath for lazyness: SoD spoiler Right-eye contact him and say him where Xykon is, asking him to fulfill his oath; Eugene refuses because "if he fails, his son is an orphan and his wife a widow. Or, worse, Xykon can track them and kill them" (probably the words were a little different, I'm going with memory).

He never told that to his family. I think Eugene loved his family much more than they knew, more than he wanted to admit, and was a bad father for incompetence. He never understood many things, probably he had an horrible wis. But I'm going off topic here.

Anyway, personally I agree with him leaving the oath; I mean, Xykon was always been much more powerful than him, what's the point in getting killed needlessy and without result? Eugene still deserved punishment for being an egocentric jackass, and for passing the oath to his sons like that.
I figured that they just used the oath as an excuse to punish him, and they would have find some other way if it weren't for the oath, but probably I'm wrong in it.

[The Gremlin]

I think in that big book they have detailed rules for this case. My bet is that they force him to stay in limbo for a certain time, and in the end they still let him in. After all, the punishment was "being excluded from afterlife for some time", not indefinitely.
I also want to point out that Eugene didn't left the oath for lazyness: SoD spoiler Right-eye contact him and say him where Xykon is, asking him to fulfill his oath; Eugene refuses because "if he fails, his son is an orphan and his wife a widow. Or, worse, Xykon can track them and kill them" (probably the words were a little different, I'm going with memory).
...

I did read SoD, but I assumed that Eugene was just saying that because he didn't want to admit that he didn't care about his family. You may have a point, though...

[David Argall]

I think in that big book they have detailed rules for this case. My bet is that they force him to stay in limbo for a certain time, and in the end they still let him in. After all, the punishment was "being excluded from afterlife for some time", not indefinitely.
Violet had been waiting for a century and is only let in with success. That is a really long "certain time".



I figured that they just used the oath as an excuse to punish him, and they would have find some other way if it weren't for the oath, but probably I'm wrong in it.
Origin tells us Eugene had a reasonable record, except that he had not finished his oath. So no, they were not looking for an excuse, and LG shouldn't be looking for excuses in such cases anyway.

[hamishspence]

Engene abandoned his oath before even taking up with Sara. Angel explicitly shows us a flashback to immediately after a scene in SoD:

the scene with Xyklon. The characters match, and Eugenes words in the flashback shot are a clear reference to it.