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Pauwel
2008-06-11, 02:43 PM
4e is coming. It's new, it's different and a lot of people like it. They are, of course, going to play using the new 4e rules now.
This is perfectly understandable.
But why the hell didn't you do this before?

There's been a bunch of other great systems for fantasy and other genres the entire time, yet most people just keep playing DnD even though they aren't even completely satisfied by it.
This puzzled me a while back, and I made a topic asking why people are even playing DnD 3.5 in the first place when so many better systems are out there. I expected to be flamed to death, but oddly enough most people seemed to agree with my points about the downsides to the system. They said that they kept playing DnD because it worked for them and because it's easier to find players that know the system.
Yet when 4e hit's the streets, more than half of the DnD community instantly embraces this new system.

This entire time a crapload of fantastic, stream-lined, awesome role-playing games has been available to you, and the whole while you chose to keep using 3.5 for reasons that are forgotten and fall to the ground the instant a new edition of DnD is released.
Why is this?

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-11, 02:45 PM
I'm going to go with Inertia.

HeirToPendragon
2008-06-11, 02:46 PM
Other games were not always that interesting or required reading a lot of new rules (where as I could skip most of 4e rules because I knew them already).

Its also much easier to find people for D&D than it is to find people for Generic RPG A

MeklorIlavator
2008-06-11, 02:48 PM
Name Recognition has something to do it: even though 4ed is a different system, it has the DnD name. Other systems don't have this, and thus people are reluctant to learn a new system, even though they would have to do it anyway in order to play the new system. People can be intellectually lazy, and this is one way it manifests.

AKA_Bait
2008-06-11, 02:49 PM
Marketing.

If company x comes out with a new RPG how many people know it exists? Not many. How many players look at the system and decide to switch? Some of the not many.

If Hasbro comes out with a new game how many people know it exists? Lots and lots. How many players will look at the system and decide to switch? Lots.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-06-11, 02:52 PM
No other fantasy game will ever be able to have the variety and support that D&D has. You may claim the GURPS has more variety, but not if you only look at products in the Fantasy genre.

Tengu
2008-06-11, 02:53 PM
DND is popular. Most people don't bother with other systems when they can play d20 this and d20 that. It is not a good tendency and I try to fight it, propagating other, more interesting systems whenever there's a good opportunity to do so, but it doesn't change the fact that most people will settle for the first thing you stick underneath their noses.

Although 4e finally does well what DND aspired to do for all these years and failed, as other games were better at it - represent heroic high fantasy settings.

kamikasei
2008-06-11, 02:55 PM
Inertia.

Brand recognition. D&D is the dominant game. The new version of it will also very likely be as dominant. Thus, arguments that learning 3.5 gave you the best chance of finding others to game with will carry over to 4e.

Niche. There are lots of other fantasy games, but many differ significantly in "feel" from what people used to D&D are after.

Familiarity. The transition from 3.5 to 4e doesn't strike me as nearly so large as that from, say, 3.5 to Exalted.

Many of the same sorts of reasons that people who aren't entirely satisfied by the features of Software X will switch to Software X 2.0 much more readily than to Competing Software Y.

Vortling
2008-06-11, 02:55 PM
What do you mean by "switch"? I run and play several different RPGs depending on what type of game I'm running or what's available to play. I don't have a primary game system to "switch". I will still be running and hopefully playing 3.5 even now with 4e out.

To answer your question in one word: Marketing.

I do encourage everyone who likes 4e to check out systems like Savage Worlds (http://www.peginc.com/) and Prose Descriptive Qualities (PDQ) (http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies.asp#pdq) as they cover a lot of the same goals that 4e does.

turkishproverb
2008-06-11, 02:55 PM
Because my Hackmaster books never arrived in the mail?

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-11, 03:01 PM
Now that I think about it, a lot of people HAVE switched. Or at the very least, picked up additional games.

Green Bean
2008-06-11, 03:04 PM
Its also much easier to find people for D&D than it is to find people for Generic RPG A

Exactly. And since DnD is one of the few systems that's known in the mainstream, it's essentially the system new RPG players start with. And honestly, if I have a choice between switching to a well made, dynamic system with hardly any players, or sticking with a system that's "merely" very good, but has a much wider player base, I'll go with the one I know I'll be able to use.

Pauwel
2008-06-11, 03:08 PM
What do you mean by "switch"? I run and play several different RPGs depending on what type of game I'm running or what's available to play. I don't have a primary game system to "switch". I will still be running and hopefully playing 3.5 even now with 4e out.

I do the same. As I've understood it, though, most groups do tend to use only one system.

Matthew
2008-06-11, 03:10 PM
Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

Honestly, there are that many 'fantasy heart breakers' out there because people only think they know what they and other people want. Successful games are the ones that really give people what they want, and those are recognisable because they are successful (horrible logic loop, I know).

To be clear, I am not saying brand recognition and advertising play no part, far from it, in fact I am saying that those things are also what people want.

Skyserpent
2008-06-11, 03:10 PM
I'm guessing it has something to do with the ever infamous name "Dungeons & Dragons", the iconic... ness... of the name seems to be what keeps it going

I'm just as big a fan of Green Ronin and White Wolf, to be honest, but nothing can quite get the same feel as good ol' D&D... You know, the classic, "Level X something-or-other with a +[number] sword of [effect]"

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-11, 03:33 PM
Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

I can't speak for the OP, but off the top of my head, there's Runequest, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel, Ars Magica, Tunnels and Trolls, MERP, Shadow of Yesterday, Dying Earth, and of course OD&D, D&D, and AD&D.

Now I quite agree with you that none of these games are actually *better* than D20 in an absolute sense. Dying Earth models Vance better, Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel have more realistic combat, OD&D had less power inflation, but those are all specific matters of taste.

I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.

Matthew
2008-06-11, 03:45 PM
I can't speak for the OP, but off the top of my head, there's Runequest, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel, Ars Magica, Tunnels and Trolls, MERP, Shadow of Yesterday, Dying Earth, and of course OD&D, D&D, and AD&D.

Now I quite agree with you that none of these games are actually *better* than D20 in an absolute sense. Dying Earth models Vance better, Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel have more realistic combat, OD&D had less power inflation, but those are all specific matters of taste.

Indeed, so the question becomes what do these games offer that D20 doesn't? You've noted a few possibilities above, and I agree, so then there are at least three possibilities:

1) People are ignorant of the greatness of these games (true for some people)

2) These games are unavailable (true for some people)

3) People really do just prefer what D20 offers (also true for some people)



I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.
For sure. I haven't played D20 in about a year or more, and quite happily play games other than BD&D/AD&D/C&C. I won't be purchasing 4e material (unless someone gives stuff to me, which is how I got most of the D20 material I own).

monty
2008-06-11, 03:45 PM
Why do I play 3.5? Because it's fun. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be playing it. Simple as that.

Sure, it has its problems, but that's part of what makes it interesting. Sometimes, I just feel like going Druidzilla and killing the world as a swift action. That kind of play wasn't intended by the designers, but it still makes it fun sometimes (if not overused, but the same can be said of lots of things). If I want to be able to stick someone's head in a bucket of water to heal them, I can do that. And the best part? If someone does something stupid like that in a game, the DM can fix it. Yes, I know that's a fallacy, but if you can't deal with the bugs, you aren't playing the game right.

THAC0
2008-06-11, 03:46 PM
We played 3.5 because it's a lot easier to get players than 1e. We're switching to 4e (or giving it a chance, at least), because it seems to fix a lot of the issues we have with 3.5.

Swordguy
2008-06-11, 03:52 PM
I'm switching because I'm sick and tired of 3.x, and because the only thing my players will agree to play is D&D.

I've got 2 people who really like superhero games, 1 person who practically only likes sci-fi, 1 person who thinks Deadlands is the be-all and end-all of gaming, 1 person who won't play any game that depresses her (so cyberpunk is out), and 1 person who refuses to play anything but fantasy ("it must have magic in it").

The ONLY thing they're willing to agree on is "D&D is the 2nd-best option", so it's practically the only thing we get to play. And since I categorically refuse to run any more 3.x games, well...

...there's times I miss my old, open-minded groups...

Talya
2008-06-11, 03:54 PM
I don't know anyone who falls into the OP's categories, personally.

I've tried several systems. For high-fantasy, 3.5 is my favorite. (I'm eager to try 3.P though. Go Paizo!) I also love exalted so far. I've played WestEnd SWD6, Saga Edition, Palladium (oh god that system is bad), 1st Edition D&D, Deadlands (not enough to get a feel for it, mind you.)

I may eagerly play a computer game based on 4e, but I don't have any interest in it otherwise.

BloodyAngel
2008-06-11, 03:55 PM
I actually play and run vast hordes of different games and systems. Notably, D&D 2nd, 3.5 and 4th Edition, Champions/hero system, All things white wolf (mostly old ed. vampire and werewolf), Rifts/Palladium, BESM, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wards d20, Star Wars (the old d6 system), warhammer fantasy roleplay, and for a while rolemaster.

I wouldn't say that any one of those is better than the rest... each has it's appeal. The hard part is finding people who want to play any of the above games. D&D is kind of the poster child for tabletop RPG's. Tell someone you play roleplaying games, and he's equally likely to think of console video games or MMO's. Tell him you play D&D, and they know exactly what you're talking about.

Matthew
2008-06-11, 03:58 PM
I'm switching because I'm sick and tired of 3.x, and because the only thing my players will agree to play is D&D.

I've got 2 people who really like superhero games, 1 person who practically only likes sci-fi, 1 person who thinks Deadlands is the be-all and end-all of gaming, 1 person who won't play any game that depresses her (so cyberpunk is out), and 1 person who refuses to play anything but fantasy ("it must have magic in it").

The ONLY thing they're willing to agree on is "D&D is the 2nd-best option", so it's practically the only thing we get to play. And since I categorically refuse to run any more 3.x games, well...

...there's times I miss my old, open-minded groups...

Aw, mate. That's the perfect time to buy a Rules Cyclopedia and get back to basics. :smallbiggrin:

Trog
2008-06-11, 04:00 PM
Marketing.

If company x comes out with a new RPG how many people know it exists? Not many. How many players look at the system and decide to switch? Some of the not many.

If Hasbro comes out with a new game how many people know it exists? Lots and lots. How many players will look at the system and decide to switch? Lots.
I almost never do this but... QFT

And Branding. DnD has been around a long time and has high brand loyalty. Has the company always made the best decisions? *coughRedSteelSettingcough* Well, no. But since Wizards took over for TSR they have gotten a much better bunch of people who are more willing to improve the game and make it more accessible to new players.

They sink a lot of money into artwork, research, printing, etc. and their product, in the minds of many is worth it. Plus they own the lions share of top of mind awareness when it comes to table top role-playing games. Deservedly so.

Matthew
2008-06-11, 04:05 PM
I wouldn't say that any one of those is better than the rest... each has it's appeal. The hard part is finding people who want to play any of the above games. D&D is kind of the poster child for tabletop RPG's. Tell someone you play roleplaying games, and he's equally likely to think of console video games or MMO's. Tell him you play D&D, and they know exactly what you're talking about.

This is an interesting problem, and one I think comes up for a lot of people. I have to say, though I have never encountered it. I usually play with my friends, who are happy enough to play pretty much anything, but the last time I actively recruited (back in 2001, mind) it was very easy to find players for an AD&D campaign, and additional players cycled in and out easily during the campaign. I think it must be hard to bring in D20 players, and I think that they are the majority of the RPG community.

Oslecamo
2008-06-11, 04:40 PM
You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

Nada Rakshasa
2008-06-11, 04:55 PM
I've only just begun to roleplay in this last 2-3 years now. In that time I've played D&D 3.5, GURPs, World of Darkness (old and new) and a friend's homebrewed system. For me, it's not a matter of switching, it's a matter of adding one more option to the list. *shrug* The only real deterrent against playing a different system is the lack of rules information. In the next few months I anticipate participating in campaigns in the above listed systems as well as 4e.

In my situation, flexibility is key.

Trog
2008-06-11, 05:09 PM
You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

*pauses licking PHB in mid-lick*

*considers*

*shrugs. goes back to licking 4e books*

Mmmm... Brainwashing Ink.

chiasaur11
2008-06-11, 05:39 PM
You fools.

It's the ink , I tell you.

Secret chemicals developed in WOTC vaults, wich make all who just touch the books adicted to D&D. What, you tought they were called wizards for nothing?

And we're all under their control now. 4e brings up an even stronger addiction factor. Soon exalted, GURPS and all other systems will be nothing more than a fading memory in your minds. 4e will be everything. And you don't want to know what they have planed for 5e...

Free puppies. That, instead of pooping, make bacon. And Jetpacks.

Pauwel
2008-06-11, 05:48 PM
Just what are these amazing other fantasy games that are streamlined and so much greater than D20? What are they better at doing?

Honestly, there are that many 'fantasy heart breakers' out there because people only think they know what they and other people want. Successful games are the ones that really give people what they want, and those are recognisable because they are successful (horrible logic loop, I know).

To be clear, I am not saying brand recognition and advertising play no part, far from it, in fact I am saying that those things are also what people want.

I can only point to my own thread and the responses made by many, who played DnD despite not actually being content with it.
Mutants and Masterminds 2e is, in my opinion, the best alternative to DnD.



I do see where the OP is coming from, but basically he's working with a distorted perspective, he seems to assume that "everybody" is "switching" to 4E "now". I'm sure a lot of people are sticking with 3.X, I know a lot of people are still on AD&D, and a huge number of people play more than one system.

My post is addressed to those who are switching to 4e.
Which may turn out to not be quite as big a group of people as I thought. Still, I reckon at least half of those who primarily use DnD 3.5 are going to switch to 4e.

Matthew
2008-06-11, 06:00 PM
I can only point to my own thread and the responses made by many, who played DnD despite not actually being content with it.
Mutants and Masterminds 2e is, in my opinion, the best alternative to DnD.

See, though, the thing is they say they want to change, but when it comes to it, they don't. The only answer I can think of is they don't really want to. They are happy and safe with D20, they just like to complain about its failings (as do we all).

Cainen
2008-06-11, 06:07 PM
I asked the same question when it was 3.5. I asked it when 3.5 was well and going, and I ask the question again when people feel compelled to switch from 3.X to 4E.

It's marketing and brand-name recognition, period. D&D has a fairly unique feel at this point, and that only helps their case. It doesn't make me loathe it any less than I do, however.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-11, 06:10 PM
My post is addressed to those who are switching to 4e.
Which may turn out to not be quite as big a group of people as I thought. Still, I reckon at least half of those who primarily use DnD 3.5 are going to switch to 4e.

Quite possibly, but remember that despite all the hooha about the changes, 4E is still closer to 3.X than to anything else on the market. The complaints people have about 3.X are always things like "Wizards are overpowered" or "Fighters suck" neither of these issues are addressed in other games, because "wizards" and "fighters" are wholly D&D concepts.

People complain about the specifics but keep playing. It's not like you ever get anybody saying "man, D&D would be so much better if it was a classless, skills based dice pool system set in the modern world, where you got to play vampires. No, I don't want to give Vampire a try, but check out my classless-skills-based-dice-pool-D&D-where-you-play-vampires houserules".

DR.Fealing
2008-06-11, 07:04 PM
:frown: I've looked over the whole thread, and I see No (not one!) mention of Paranoia! Play Paranoia! (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=19) The Computer tells you to, and the computer is your friend!

Matthew
2008-06-11, 07:07 PM
That sounds like treachery to me, citizen.

chiasaur11
2008-06-11, 07:54 PM
That sounds like treachery to me, citizen.

Citizen? That begins with the same letter as "comrade"! And we all know what group says "Comrade".

Commies.

NorseItalian
2008-06-11, 08:00 PM
Why?
Because I'm a stupid idiot. That's what you wan to hear, right? I'm switching because I'm a stupid idiot who likes Dnd 4e.

MeklorIlavator
2008-06-11, 08:16 PM
That's not what he's asking. He's asking why you aren't trying different systems instead of DnD, and given all the complaining about DnD that happens on these forums, its somewhat justified. Granted, the question might have been phrased better, but if you read the posts, it gives off a much better vibe.

Helgraf
2008-06-11, 08:59 PM
I'll be switching to 4th D&D when both of the games I'm currently running reach their conclusions (which they were headed toward before I was aware of 4th ed's [at that point] imminent [sic] release). I'll probably be _playing_ in 4th ed before that point; but I won't be DMing until then.

However, it's not an on-off choice.

The fact of the matter is, I do play Spycraft 2.0 SP. I do play BESM. I do play WFRP (2nd edition). I do play 7th Sea. I do play the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. I have played MERP, and Rolemaster. And Cyberpunk and Shadowrun. And World of Darkness games, and Abberant. And WFRP (1st edition). And yes, even a few Palladium games. And Amazing Engine (Faerie, Queen and Country). And Twilight 2000. And Do you wanna be a Rock n' Roll Star. And various D6 system games, including one that was adapted to running B-movies wherein we played the actors who played the characters in the movies (which was mostly playing our characters but with a few bonuses for the nature of the actor and the actor's experience).

So where the idea that I'm ignoring all other game systems "to go play 4th ed" comes from is beyond me.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-11, 09:44 PM
What determines a better system? You claim that there are many systems out there that work better than D&D, but isn't that just a personal opinion? Don't get me wrong, I haven't played any other table-top RPG other than D&D. But hey, D&D is great fun, and its popularity can only draw more community, which is always a good thing. And I'm not about to spend months and lots-o-money testing out other systems till I find absolute perfection, which I won't, cause nothings perfect. So why spend tons of time searching for a system which would cost lots of money and even more pain at the lack of people available to play, when I could be having a great time being blissfully unaware with 4.0?

Curiosity killed the cat, right? The less I know the better off I'll be, I say. :smallbiggrin:

Plus, at least D&D is almost recognized by the general populace. So, when I tell this cute girl that I play D&D, she would know right away that I am a total geek...... oh wait....:smallconfused:

sikyon
2008-06-11, 10:09 PM
This entire time a crapload of

there you go. Too many choices. Go with what you know, which is WotC.

Roog
2008-06-11, 10:14 PM
I've got 2 people who really like superhero games, 1 person who practically only likes sci-fi, 1 person who thinks Deadlands is the be-all and end-all of gaming, 1 person who won't play any game that depresses her (so cyberpunk is out), and 1 person who refuses to play anything but fantasy ("it must have magic in it").

The ONLY thing they're willing to agree on is "D&D is the 2nd-best option", so it's practically the only thing we get to play. And since I categorically refuse to run any more 3.x games, well...

Surely there are other compromise games you could play?

Light hearted Deadlands (has Deadlands, non-depressing, and magic)
Light Supernatural Superheros (has Superheroes, non-depressing, and magic)
Supernatural Heroes in Steamtech
etc

Swordguy
2008-06-12, 03:46 AM
Surely there are other compromise games you could play?

Light hearted Deadlands (has Deadlands, non-depressing, and magic)
Light Supernatural Superheros (has Superheroes, non-depressing, and magic)
Supernatural Heroes in Steamtech
etc

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

However, when it comes to "what does everyone want to play", the sole game that everybody can agree upon is D&D. I think it's partially because almost everyone cut their eyeteeth on it (all of my current group did, save my wife [the L5R nut] and D&D was her second game), so it forms a common touchstone amoung the gaming community.

As for running games out of their genre, I'm almost an entirely "off the cuff" GM. There's times when I've literally sat down with zero preparation time and run a game off the top of my head. Therefore, I try to make it a policy to run games in their assigned genre, solely for the sake of my own rapidly-diminishing sanity. That, and a game almost always works best in the genre it was designed for. Sure, I CAN run a Deadlands game using MechWarrior 2e rules...but it's not going to function nearly so well as the actual Pinnacle rules*.

*There are no d20 rules for Deadlands. It never happened.

nagora
2008-06-12, 03:52 AM
Why?
Because I'm a stupid idiot. That's what you wan to hear, right? I'm switching because I'm a stupid idiot who likes Dnd 4e.

I admire your candour; have you thought about going into politics? We need more people with your refreshing attitude to public speaking.:smallsmile:

Raum
2008-06-12, 07:45 AM
What determines a better system? You claim that there are many systems out there that work better than D&D, but isn't that just a personal opinion? What makes 4e better than 3.x? I've seen several answers - streamlining, simplification, balance, less accounting, faster combat. etc. There are games designed with those premises from the beginning. They generally (though not always) do a better job of meeting those goals mechanically than 4e. Some, such as Savage Worlds, have already been mentioned.

However D&D prior to 4e has generally been the game with the broadest appeal. Much of that is certainly due to marketing and tradition, but not all. It's also been one of few games able to to appeal to players across game type boundaries. For those who like lots of options and specific mechanics there's D&D with all the options. For those preferring simplified games there's core only D&D. Neither may be as mechanically comprehensive as GURPS or as simple as Savage Worlds, but both can be covered - more or less - by one game.

AslanCross
2008-06-12, 08:00 AM
The hobby stores in this part of the world only carry D&D/d20 stuff. I'm surprised it even sells.

EvilJames
2008-06-12, 05:10 PM
DND is popular. Most people don't bother with other systems when they can play d20 this and d20 that. It is not a good tendency and I try to fight it, propagating other, more interesting systems whenever there's a good opportunity to do so, but it doesn't change the fact that most people will settle for the first thing you stick underneath their noses.

Although 4e finally does well what DND aspired to do for all these years and failed, as other games were better at it - represent heroic high fantasy settings.

I disagree with the idea that previous editions couldn't properly represent High fantasy, low fantasy, historical fantasy or any other fantasy. Can the new game do it? Sure why not, but it didn't finally do it, it just did it a different way. Some people think this new way is is the best thing since sliced bread but I'm not yet impressed. It seems like it's probably a good system but nothing to be excited about.

However back to the OP's question. As people have stated marketing plays a big role as does brand loyalty (D&D was the first after all), but having played other games (Hero, and ICE mostly) I've found that while they are good games and not all that hard to play as long as someone has a decent understanding of the rules and they do offer a lot of realism and options; those same options can be cumbersome and the rules can still be daunting to prospective new players (Hero's core book, as much as I enjoy the game. looks like a textbook and character creation can take over an hour for ICE and death can come very suddenly) D&D (in all it's iterations From Basic on) has been about simpler easier to understand rules. That can lead to some problems as well, which is what people complain about. That's why there is more than one RPG after all so far no one's come up with a game that has everything yet so right now we just play the one that suits our needs the most at the time.

elliott20
2008-06-13, 09:20 AM
I don't even know if I am going to play 4E.

My current group actually LIKES to try out new systems. And depending upon the game we're running, we might use a different system.

Off the top of my head, I've played:

Spirits of the Century, Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, Prime Time Adventures, Agon, Mountain Witch, Tsibili, and not to mention a large number of games that are only circulated in the indy game circles. (A lot of them you'll see on story-games.com)

We also have a tendency to mod any of the existing systems we have to better fit our own games. One of my friends modded the Fate system for a kung-fu game he was running. I modded Spirits of the Century to run a futuristic sci-fi game, etc.

Indon
2008-06-13, 12:58 PM
Quite possibly, but remember that despite all the hooha about the changes, 4E is still closer to 3.X than to anything else on the market.

I disagree.

In terms of depth and variety of character choices, raw character potential, and mechanical versatility, Exalted (and other White Wolf systems) is far more similar to 3.x than 4'th edition is.

And then to add to it, Exalted has the same cinematic feel and even some of the same mechanical streamlining (such as extras) that 4'th edition has.

A lot of people play D&D because it's the cool game for nerds to play, not necessarily because of any actual virtues to the system.

monty
2008-06-13, 01:51 PM
A lot of people play D&D because it's the cool game for nerds to play, not necessarily because of any actual virtues to the system.

I don't usually do this, but QFT. D&D is one of the primary icons of the nerd community, up there with Star Trek and pocket protectors. The average non-nerd will never have heard of most of the other systems that people have mentioned, but if you say you play D&D, they will immediately know that you are a nerd. Also, it helps get the nerdy girls, who are rare but better.:smallbiggrin:

NorseItalian
2008-06-13, 02:17 PM
That's not what he's asking. He's asking why you aren't trying different systems instead of DnD, and given all the complaining about DnD that happens on these forums, its somewhat justified. Granted, the question might have been phrased better, but if you read the posts, it gives off a much better vibe.

Even with that, my answer stands. The reason that I'm not trying other things like White Wolf or D20 Modern or GURPS is because I'm a stupid idiot who likes Dnd 4e.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-13, 04:29 PM
I disagree.

In terms of depth and variety of character choices, raw character potential, and mechanical versatility, Exalted (and other White Wolf systems) is far more similar to 3.x than 4'th edition is.

Let's see.

White Wolf: Skills based system, no levels or classes, you can start the game as a master swordsman or a struggling art student or anything else you want.

3.X: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is closely tied to your level.

4E: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is determined directly by your level.


And then to add to it, Exalted has the same cinematic feel and even some of the same mechanical streamlining (such as extras) that 4'th edition has.

But it doesn't have levels, classes, Wizards, Fighters, Rogues and the other things people like in D&D.


A lot of people play D&D because it's the cool game for nerds to play, not necessarily because of any actual virtues to the system.

Unless they play 3.X, in which case they play it because it's so totally flexible.

EvilJames
2008-06-13, 05:19 PM
Let's see.

White Wolf: Skills based system, no levels or classes, you can start the game as a master swordsman or a struggling art student or anything else you want.

3.X: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is closely tied to your level.

4E: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is determined directly by your level.



.

Which means you can start as a master swordsman or a struggling art student or anything else you want. Assuming of coarse that the Dm wants to run a higher level campaign starting out otherwise you'll have to work on the master swordsman, but art student is still quite possible at first or any level. The fact that you are still some combination of X/Y/Z with a bit of Q.3 thrown in is largely irrelevant as the end result is the same.

In D&D your level determines how many skill points you have in White Wolf your GM does either way it's determined by something (your GM might not even let you start off a master swordsman)

Titanium Dragon
2008-06-13, 05:26 PM
I think the reason is quite simple:

There aren't a bunch of other awesome systems out there to switch to. There are other systems but they aren't awesome, or just don't target the audience of fantasy RPGs.

UserClone
2008-06-13, 06:25 PM
@Swordguy: Mutants and Masterminds 2E meets all the criteria your gaming group requires, and as a bonus: It's D20! (And yes, it can include magic/mages, if that's what you spend your Power Points on.

Skyserpent
2008-06-13, 06:46 PM
@Swordguy: Mutants and Masterminds 2E meets all the criteria your gaming group requires, and as a bonus: It's D20! (And yes, it can include magic/mages, if that's what you spend your Power Points on.

He speaks the truth!

However, I found making rules for monstrous enemies and the like is time-consuming and oft-irritating, but I haven't really sat down and done too much with it...

Also: The art in the 2e Mutants n' Masterminds book makes me want to gouge my eyes out and replace them with FIRE.

Turcano
2008-06-13, 07:32 PM
There are two major problems with this question:

It assumes that RPG choice is a zero-sum game. There are lots of people who play D&D and some other system, and if they're both d20 systems, it's very easy to hybridize the two. For example, A Game of Thrones d20, though very setting-specific, handles political influence a lot better than D&D does, so you can just import those rules over if you're playing a campaign with a lot of political intrigue.
It assumes that everyone is switching to 4E. I for one don't plan to switch at any time in the foreseeable future. And there are some advantages to 3.5 no longer being supported, namely that people don't have to worry about further power creep. (And if you think 4E doesn't have that particular problem, just wait a few years.)

Bag_of_Holding
2008-06-13, 07:39 PM
I've been trying to compare good ol' 3.5e and shiny 4e for a while now. Although my first impression with 4e was less than satisfactory, I now find it not that bad at all. However, it lacks the complexity that I enjoy from 3.5e (or at least, I absolutely abhor how the ability blocks are statted out), so I'll stick with 3.5e.

Of course, 4e IS a wonderful system and is very much balanced (in that it restricts a degree of freedom), but if I wanted a balanced rule then I'd stick with M&M2e or SW:SE.

Indon
2008-06-13, 07:50 PM
White Wolf: Skills based system, no levels or classes, you can start the game as a master swordsman or a struggling art student or anything else you want.
White Wolf: Overarching character archetypes (Mage, Vampire, Solar, Dragon-Blood) with little possible crossover. Diverse skills and skill system strongly connected to capabilities and task. Highly diverse power sets with multiple different overall structures.


3.X: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is closely tied to your level.
3.X: Overarching character archetypes (Classes) with extensive possible crossover. Diverse skills and skill system strongly connected to capabilities and somewhat connected to task. Highly diverse power sets with multiple different overall structures.


4E: Class and level based. No matter what your concept might be, you're ultimately always some combination of Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Thief. Sure it has a skill system, but your level of expertise is determined directly by your level.
4'th Edition: Overarching character archetypes (Classes) with some possible crossover. Rudimentary skills and skill system largely unconnected to capabilities or task. Largely similar power sets following a uniform structure.


But it doesn't have levels, classes, Wizards, Fighters, Rogues and the other things people like in D&D.

What it doesn't have is name recognition. Games that have that name recognition include a roleplaying game which is popularly considered horribly broken, oftentimes to the point of complete unplayability by its own players, and a flavored boardgame (some might even argue an entire _line_ of flavored boardgames, but I'll not get into that).

Ralfarius
2008-06-13, 08:15 PM
And then to add to it, Exalted has the same cinematic feel and even some of the same mechanical streamlining (such as extras) that 4'th edition has.
*CoughgraduateyourgameCough*

Not saying you espouse such a sentiment, that's just what the mention of Exalted reminded me.

Indon
2008-06-13, 08:19 PM
*CoughgraduateyourgameCough*

Not saying you espouse such a sentiment, that's just what the mention of Exalted reminded me.

Well, just as D&D has the strong brand name, conversely, nobody ever accused White Wolf of particularly good advertising. Good system creation, sure, but not so much on the PR front.

In fact, if I recall back when that first hit these forums, the most frequent comment on the thread about it was, "Exalted's a great system and all, but seriously, White Wolf, WTF?"

Ralfarius
2008-06-13, 08:26 PM
It's so true. What a bad move on White Wolf's part.

The Necroswanso
2008-06-13, 08:31 PM
4e is coming. It's new, it's different and a lot of people like it. They are, of course, going to play using the new 4e rules now.
This is perfectly understandable.
But why the hell didn't you do this before?

There's been a bunch of other great systems for fantasy and other genres the entire time, yet most people just keep playing DnD even though they aren't even completely satisfied by it.
This puzzled me a while back, and I made a topic asking why people are even playing DnD 3.5 in the first place when so many better systems are out there. I expected to be flamed to death, but oddly enough most people seemed to agree with my points about the downsides to the system. They said that they kept playing DnD because it worked for them and because it's easier to find players that know the system.
Yet when 4e hit's the streets, more than half of the DnD community instantly embraces this new system.

This entire time a crapload of fantastic, stream-lined, awesome role-playing games has been available to you, and the whole while you chose to keep using 3.5 for reasons that are forgotten and fall to the ground the instant a new edition of DnD is released.
Why is this?

I've been playing several fantasy RPGs for a long time, including making archaelogical expeditions to find the Everquest rpg books.
I still plan on playing 3.5 when I DM or when the game is not run by my regular DM.

Roderick_BR
2008-06-13, 08:35 PM
I like to roll a d20.
And I class systems that *try* to make sense, instead of level-based Gurps (you reach 2nd level, you gain x points to increase your abilities).

My old group tried several others types of games, and none worked better than AD&D and 3.x for us. Games like Gurps and Storyteller are good, but not for medieval fantasy in my group's opinion.

Raum
2008-06-13, 08:52 PM
There aren't a bunch of other awesome systems out there to switch to. There are other systems but they aren't awesome, or just don't target the audience of fantasy RPGs.Just curious but what systems have you tried which don't meet your criteria?

Tough_Tonka
2008-06-13, 09:04 PM
So just what makes these other systems inherently more fun than D&D any way? I keep hearing that other games are so much better than the d20 system, and I've played and GMed a good number of them myself (old and new white wolf system, coda system, gurps 4th edition, shadowrunner, rifts). With that in mind I have to say I haven't found any of these games rules to be any more enthralling than D&D's.

Raum
2008-06-13, 09:29 PM
So just what makes these other systems inherently more fun than D&D any way?More fun? Fun is where you find it and what you make it. I don't think any game system is inherently "more fun" so much as simply fun in different styles. Which you prefer will largely depend on what style of game you prefer to play.


I keep hearing that other games are so much better than the d20 system, and I've played and GMed a good number of them myself (old and new white wolf system, coda system, gurps 4th edition, shadowrunner, rifts).Some mechanics simply support particular styles better than others. GURPS can be very detail and simulation oriented, old WoD tended to support politically themed games better than many, and Shadowrun (pre 4th, haven't played it) supported fantastic themes from mythology in a gritty cyberpunk world. Newer systems support other styles - Savage Worlds is great for fast tactical combat and pulp action, Unisystem for cinematic games, and Spirit of the Century for different character oriented tactical conflict resolution. D&D (again pre 4th, haven't played it yet) supported strategic character builds and epic combats.

Of course every one of those systems can support and emphasize other things and styles as well.


With that in mind I have to say I haven't found any of these games rules to be any more enthralling than D&D's.Glad you're enjoying D&D!

-----
To the OP's point, I do find it ironically amusing to see people who've refused to even try other systems (for whatever reason) who are willing to switch to a new system when it has the D&D trademark. :smallsmile:

Indon
2008-06-13, 10:03 PM
So just what makes these other systems inherently more fun than D&D any way? I keep hearing that other games are so much better than the d20 system, and I've played and GMed a good number of them myself (old and new white wolf system, coda system, gurps 4th edition, shadowrunner, rifts). With that in mind I have to say I haven't found any of these games rules to be any more enthralling than D&D's.

For me, it's not a matter of the rules being enthralling.

It's simply a matter of, when I have an idea, wanting to use the system that most easily accommodates that idea. If I think, "Anime-style universe," I think, "Exalted is a good system for that," or if I think, "Awesome magic system," I think, "I could use Mage: The Ascension, or 3'rd Edition maybe."

AD&D did not perform very well in this metric - for many, many universes, the World of Darkness rules were just plain better to model it with. 3'rd edition, however, gave D&D a chance, and I gave D&D another chance with it. 3'rd edition gave the D&D system the ability to compete with White Wolf in the ability to express a greater variety of ideas.

Now, with 4'th edition, I'm not seeing it with most of my ideas. There's one rather significant exception, because tactical fire team combat is a major component of the campaign, and it'd be a lot easier to houserule 4'th edition into it than it would be to houserule 3'rd edition... but I'm not so sure if it'd be easier to houserule 4'th edition than it would be to just houserule a White Wolf system.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-06-13, 10:24 PM
4e is coming. It's new, it's different and a lot of people like it. They are, of course, going to play using the new 4e rules now.
This is perfectly understandable.
But why the hell didn't you do this before?

There's been a bunch of other great systems for fantasy and other genres the entire time, yet most people just keep playing DnD even though they aren't even completely satisfied by it.
This puzzled me a while back, and I made a topic asking why people are even playing DnD 3.5 in the first place when so many better systems are out there. I expected to be flamed to death, but oddly enough most people seemed to agree with my points about the downsides to the system. They said that they kept playing DnD because it worked for them and because it's easier to find players that know the system.
Yet when 4e hit's the streets, more than half of the DnD community instantly embraces this new system.

This entire time a crapload of fantastic, stream-lined, awesome role-playing games has been available to you, and the whole while you chose to keep using 3.5 for reasons that are forgotten and fall to the ground the instant a new edition of DnD is released.
Why is this?

Fantasy Role Playing is a niche market. D&D is a major product of the industry leader producing a game that almost everyone has heard about (Name and Brand recognition). This makes it easy to find players compared to other games like World of Darkness or Harn. Nice free Harn resouce:
http://www.lythia.com/

The D&D basic rules can be very inexpensive to learn with access to a computer (Mostly personal time and very modest printing expenses (Ink cartridges) unless printing lots of pages. Lots of internet messages boards you can post a question or questions regarding the rules or making a certain type of PC.

A person can peruse the SRD and make a very nice PC just paste copying the pertinent SRD class, skills, feats and spells to a word document and printing it if no one owns any of the books or share one or two new or used books for a game. A DM can do the same for key rules and monsters. Either can also make a pen and or pencil notebook and borrow a book from a friend if money is tight.

Most but not all other games require more of a financial expenditure from the players since most people have finite resources. A new rules book (particularly at full retail price) can be a significant percentage of their entertainment budget just to learn the rules of a game they might not like.

Werewindlefr
2008-06-13, 11:00 PM
AD&D did not perform very well in this metric - for many, many universes, the World of Darkness rules were just plain better to model it with. 3'rd edition, however, gave D&D a chance, and I gave D&D another chance with it. 3'rd edition gave the D&D system the ability to compete with White Wolf in the ability to express a greater variety of ideas.
I'm not trying to defend AD&D or anything, which I was quickly fed up with for having one of the most difficult system to use with nothing to justify it, but I am not sure I understand how the WoD rules could have been better for the universes you are talking about (I mean, AD&D-relevant universes). Having played the old WoD games for a few years, it seemed to me that the "WoD System" was actually very specialized. What I mean by that is that it was very good when used with WoD games -it was made for it- but not really adaptable to other settings.
The vertical advancement of D&D, for instance, doesn't really exist in the WoD. Not on the same scale anyway. Sure, there's generation/entelechy, but it's quite different.
If by "WoD rules", you mean the "attribute+skill, d10, target number" concepts, that's more like the skeleton of a system that would require a lot of work to flesh out, adapt, and basically make usable.

Tistur
2008-06-13, 11:11 PM
In answer to the original post:

It is true that the release of 4th Edition has spurred me to switch systems. I walked into the bookstore, opened the new Player's Handbook, and had a revelation.

I should be getting my HARP book in the mail any day now. My friends have cooked up 3 radically different d20-like systems, 2 of which I play on a regular basis. I'll be playing in my first Castles & Crusades game later this month. I'm working on house rules for a Cortex game I'll be running in a months.

Thanks, Hasbro!!

EDITED: I am aware that this looks like I'm heavily leaning towards d20-type games, and at the moment I'll admit that I am. There are several reasons for this, including money, time (mine & my friends), and, yes, comfort.

Mr Pants
2008-06-13, 11:20 PM
because DnD is like a starter-rpg
every gamer plays it at some point in time during their life and a few may switch to other games like gurps and shadowrun; I for one am now playing Unhallowed Metropolis and am very satisfied.

Joran
2008-06-13, 11:30 PM
4e is coming. It's new, it's different and a lot of people like it. They are, of course, going to play using the new 4e rules now.
This is perfectly understandable.
But why the hell didn't you do this before?

Through inertia, we never really started up another game after our D20 Modern game went kaput because of college graduation 4 years ago.

4ed gives us an excuse to try to dive back in; we'll see how long it actually lasts.

P.S. I like to collect RPG books if for nothing else to compare mechanics.