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AKA_Bait
2008-06-11, 07:24 PM
So, I like 4e thus far. I really do. However, as I was getting down to the nitty gritty of converting some 3.x stuff which shall remain nameless to 4e I came across the need to update some traps and I can't find anywhere it tells you how to homebrew traps!

There are default traps in the 4e DMG and there are vague sections on how/when to use them. However, I can't seem to find anything on trap design.

Specifically:

How much damage does a trap do per level?
How much damage is a status effect worth?
How much would multiple status effects be worth?

I think, stress think, from looking at the traps the standard Perception dc is level +3. There are some deviations from this though, and I have no idea why or how they balance.

Anyone know this?

tyckspoon
2008-06-11, 07:42 PM
I hear that page 42 of the 4E DMG has a table with easy/normal/hard DCs sorted by level. That would be where I'd look for figuring out Perception/disabling/whatever DCs.

As for assigning damage and status effects and the like, it is my understanding that 4E wants to treat traps a lot like normal monster encounters, so the stats for monsters of the right level and type should be a working guideline. For example, imagine you have one of the classic traps- an automatic crossbow or similar is flinging arrows down a long hallway. Well, that's functioning like a ranged monster would.. so you go check what that level of Artillery-class monster inflicts, and use that as the base line for the damage.

RTGoodman
2008-06-11, 09:33 PM
How much damage does a trap do per level?
I just used the average damage by level that monsters also use. Can't remember the page number right now, though.

How much damage is a status effect worth?
Well, with monsters, if there's a status effect you'd use the Easy (or Light or whatever) damage from that table I mentioned earlier. I'd say traps work the same way.

How much would multiple status effects be worth?
If it's only two or so, I'd say just use the Easy damage level and just have the extra effects. If it's more, maybe just use damage from lower levels (or make it a higher-level trap).


I think, stress think, from looking at the traps the standard Perception dc is level +3. There are some deviations from this though, and I have no idea why or how they balance.

Anyone know this?

I think Lurkers and some other trap types might get some bonuses, but I'm not sure. I think the initiative is sort of like that, too (Level+1 or +2, if I remember correctly, and then a bonus for certain trap types). There might be a difference between Traps and Hazards, too, but I'm not sure.

It is a little difficult. I was trying to convert a few and make new one and hit the same problems. I think I just ended up eyeballing it all and comparing it to other stuff, and that's where my answers come from.


An e-mail to CustServ might give different or better answers, though.

AKA_Bait
2008-06-13, 09:07 AM
An e-mail to CustServ might give different or better answers, though.

I took this advice, since the damage table doesn't say anything about the additional status effects and for this particular trap that's really important.

So, I e-mailed custserv and got this reply:


Greetings Patrick,

Thanks for the great feedback! We’ve passed this along to the good folks that make the games and hopefully we’ll see some errata covering this situation soon. Until then, it is up to your Dungeon Master to determine how he/she wants to handle this particular situation in their campaign.

Also, I suggest using the table on page 42 as a guide for your traps damage and difficulty to disarm.

Please let us know if you have any more questions!

Gee... thanks WotC. You have really made constructing a balanced third-party adventure easier. I'll be sure to keep my eye out for that 'errata'. Speaking of which, where the heck is the GSL anyway?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-13, 03:55 PM
I hear that page 42 of the 4E DMG has a table with easy/normal/hard DCs sorted by level. That would be where I'd look for figuring out Perception/disabling/whatever DCs.

That's what I'd use. You get the damage and the DCs, and the rest you come up with yourself. It's not like it needs to be a precise art.

But traps are a bit of a special case - the XP values don't actually correspond to the XP values for monsters of the same level all the time. Although I guess some of the traps may be Elite traps?

AKA_Bait
2008-06-13, 04:03 PM
That's what I'd use. You get the damage and the DCs, and the rest you come up with yourself. It's not like it needs to be a precise art.

I'd rather it be a precise art... particularly since I'm building/updating this particular trap for possible publication depending upon the GSL.


But traps are a bit of a special case - the XP values don't actually correspond to the XP values for monsters of the same level all the time. Although I guess some of the traps may be Elite traps?

Possibly. I've been trying to puzzle my way through that bit as well. This trap would be "Elite" in that there would only be 2 monsters (trap haunts) involved in the encounter.

RTGoodman
2008-06-13, 04:32 PM
Gee... thanks WotC. You have really made constructing a balanced third-party adventure easier. I'll be sure to keep my eye out for that 'errata'.

Guess I'm just lucky I don't really like traps that much and the adventures I'm planning on converting don't have that many. For 3.x, I usually just used the ones from the DMG (or Book of Challenges or whatever it was called), and I'll probably do that for 4E.


Speaking of which, where the heck is the GSL anyway?

No idea, but I'd like to find out soon so I can look over all of it (the SRD, the GSL itself, the stuff you have to sign and send to WotC, etc.).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-13, 06:25 PM
Guess I'm just lucky I don't really like traps that much and the adventures I'm planning on converting don't have that many.

You should totally rethink that. The new traps are like an improved version of the encounter traps from Dungeonscape, and make great encounter elements. (Converting traps to be the sole content of an encounter is not very functional; I'm not sure if any of the traps are "solo traps.")

Indon
2008-06-13, 08:09 PM
I think, stress think, from looking at the traps the standard Perception dc is level +3. There are some deviations from this though, and I have no idea why or how they balance.

They're just skill checks. Calculate them the same way as any skill check.

Easy: 15+1/2 level (round down)
Medium: 20+1/2 level (round down)
Hard: 25+1/2 level (round down)

That's just an estimation - there's actually a chart on DMG page 42 you should refer to when reverse-engineering traps properly.

Example checks:
False-floor pit:Perception Medium to notice, Thievery Really Easy to trip, Thievery Hard to disarm, Athletics Really Easy or Medium to jump over, Athletics Easy to climb out.

Spectral Tendrils:Perception Medium to notice, Arcana Easy to notice the focus, Arcana Hard to get a +2 bonus to disarm attempts, Acrobatics Medium to move through, Thievery Hard to disarm.

Moff Chumley
2008-06-13, 08:56 PM
I do as I always do: pick up a die, and think up some random number, and write that down.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-13, 10:04 PM
That... is a bit troubling. I was excited about WotC providing that handy table on page 42 for quickly resolving one-off situations... but the ability to make your own stuff is a bit more difficult now. I wouldn't like WotC to use Page 42 as an excuse for discouraging homebrewing. :smallannoyed:

I homebrewed a trap myself, actually, but I based it off of one of the standard traps in the DMG. I took the standard pit trap and gave it a counter-balancing floor (so that weight on the "end" tiles caused it to spin on a central shaft, but that it would settle back to closed after a few rotations) and a "control box" (actually stone triggers in a wall carving) to set the floor to "lock." For XP, I upgraded it to elite.

You may just want to stick to fiddling with the basic trap-types in the DMG and altering fluff and swapping characteristics (using the page 42 DCs when necessary) and just making the trap an "elite" version if it is much more difficult.

Since the PCs aren't going to see the numbers you're using, and it's kind of hard to meta-game traps, I think this'll work OK until I get comfortable enough with the system to go freehand again. But thems the breaks for trying out a new game.

Indon
2008-06-13, 10:10 PM
That... is a bit troubling. I was excited about WotC providing that handy table on page 42 for quickly resolving one-off situations... but the ability to make your own stuff is a bit more difficult now. I wouldn't like WotC to use Page 42 as an excuse for discouraging homebrewing. :smallannoyed:

No, no, you misunderstand me. The book never says, "Use the page 42 table to reverse-engineer everything". It's just that all the traps are basically built based on page 42.

So if you use the table, in conjunction with mob rules, you've got trap houseruling completely down (Well, I think Elite is +2 to all DC's, but that's it).

Jarlax
2008-06-13, 11:30 PM
I'd rather it be a precise art... particularly since I'm building/updating this particular trap for possible publication depending upon the GSL.

while i can understand your concern all 4e is trying to do it get away from the 10 step program for building your own traps presented in 3.5, which places a downward pressure on creativity because people feel they are obliged to follow the tables or their trap is somehow not "legal"

if this is for a publication then build your trap, throw it against some players and reflect on the outcome, was it too easy/hard? did it equal a elite opponent or just a standard?. look at the false floor trap or spear gauntlet and observer how they differ between elite and regular versions of themselves.

in a homebrew game you can throw a trap at players and assign XP after the fight if you cannot come to a decision on how difficult it will theoretically be. for publication you might be better off staying with standard traps or alterations to standard traps using page 44 to scale them in level.

AKA_Bait
2008-06-14, 09:45 AM
You may just want to stick to fiddling with the basic trap-types in the DMG and altering fluff and swapping characteristics (using the page 42 DCs when necessary) and just making the trap an "elite" version if it is much more difficult.


I'd like to do that but there aren't any basic trap types in the DMG that I can see which either a) apply multiple status effects or b) do something similar to the Beholders 'fail multiple saves and you die' effect. Either of those could potentially work as an adjustment to the trap but I can't find any guidelines for either one.


while i can understand your concern all 4e is trying to do it get away from the 10 step program for building your own traps presented in 3.5, which places a downward pressure on creativity because people feel they are obliged to follow the tables or their trap is somehow not "legal"[/qoute]

Is a bloody table equating status effects with amount of damage really too much to ask for?

[QUOTE]if this is for a publication then build your trap, throw it against some players and reflect on the outcome, was it too easy/hard? did it equal a elite opponent or just a standard?. look at the false floor trap or spear gauntlet and observer how they differ between elite and regular versions of themselves.

Obviously I could figure out how to fix it in playtesting. However, at that point, I might as well toss their entire trap rules out the window and go with something entirely of my own design which would suit the flavor of the trap a little better. I expect my product to tell me how do so some stuff, it's why I bought it.


for publication you might be better off staying with standard traps or alterations to standard traps using page 44 to scale them in level.

That would kind of defeat the purpose of having a unique trap for a published adventure wouldn't it?

Indon
2008-06-14, 09:59 AM
Is a bloody table equating status effects with amount of damage really too much to ask for?
You might get it if you buy the Premium SRD development package, perhaps.

But in the meantime, a method I'd worked out but haven't tested yet goes like thus:

-Take the lower damage portion of the Page 42 table.
-Compare with At-Will powers.
-Calculate damage value of effects.

I dunno if it'll calibrate correctly, but I bet if you focus on average damage die values for both the table and the theoretical player you're calibrating it to (i.e. 1D6 = 3.5 damage), take into account stat increases and a couple other variables, it'll work out.

Now I want to go do that now that I've described it...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-14, 11:11 AM
I'd like to do that but there aren't any basic trap types in the DMG that I can see which either a) apply multiple status effects or b) do something similar to the Beholders 'fail multiple saves and you die' effect. Either of those could potentially work as an adjustment to the trap but I can't find any guidelines for either one.

I think that 4e is moving away from the "save or die" mechanic, since it was never really fun. I think this OotS strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) showed it the best. If you want to make Bond-like deathtraps, you might do better mixing several traps together within a single "encounter." Say, combine a pit trap with a rockslide above it, so that the PC becomes slowly buried alive in the pit.

As for the "multiple status effects" - what are you looking for there? It seems easy enough to turn regular traps into poison/disease ones just by calling them "elite." Again, it might just be easier to break the one super-trap into multiple smaller traps/hazards.

I guess you can call that a design flaw, but I think it fits with WotC's desire to segment encounters to make for easier tweaking... and to avoid pure Luck Based Missions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LuckBasedMission).