Kazumi and Daigo — Scrappy Doo?

[FoE]

I was reading the TV Tropes file on The Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy) and was surprised to see this entry on the Order of the Stick:


The Order of the Stick has its share of Scrappies, depending on who you ask .... the two Azure City guards who survived by sticking around the main cast and saying their names.

I was astonished. Flabbergasted, even! People hate Kazumi and Kaito? I'm somewhat indifferent to them myself, but by no means do I hate them. It's not as though they hog the spotlight or wreck the flow of the storyline; they're just minor supporting characters that developed from a gag.

I would never have pegged them as Scrappy Doos, which refers to characters that almost universally-hated.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Arakune]

I was reading the TV Tropes file on The Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy) and was astonished to see this entry on the Order of the Stick:



I was astonished. Flabbergasted, even! People hate Kazumi and Kaito? I'm somewhat indifferent to them myself, but by no means do I hate them. It's not as though they hog the spotlight or wreck the flow of the storyline; they're just minor supporting characters that developed from a gag.

I would never have pegged them as Scrappy Doos, which refers to characters that almost universally-hated.

Any thoughts on the matter?

P.S. Yes, I deliberately edited the article so as not to mention She Who Must Not Be Named, as I do not want this thread to be turned into yet another discussion about Her. Please limit your thoughs to Kazumi and Kaito.

Ew... hated? You don't need to like them,but hate? as you said, they don't stop the plot, take the spotlight or even do too much!

[Timberboar]

I... I'm flabbergasted as well.

I loved Scrappy. He was the only thing that made that show worth watching when I was growing up.

[tyckspoon]

Sounds more like One Troper doesn't like Kazumi and Daigo to me. The nature of a Wiki (especially a more relaxed one like TvTropes) means that you shouldn't take every single Example as being a confirmed and generally agreed-upon fact.

[Jayngfet]

Huh, I liked the bits on Kazumi and Diago, they barely did much in story anyway and the one time they could barely be called spotlight hogging(to some rabid shippers and loonies) was when we didn't know who was getting married.

[Shatteredtower]

It may be that some people take the view that K&D have replaced Roy and half the order the same way a certain puppy replaced Fred, Daphne, and Velma on Scooby Doo's adventures. That's not what the term means, but it is another way in which compare the characters might be compared.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I thought their whole purpose was to say "NPC's are people, too, just as capable of having relationships as the Protagonists." Maybe someone is still mad that when Jerome, Cakeman, Rococo the Dancing Bear, Eugene was scrying on the ship and ended the comic on a cliffhanger leaving everyone hoping for some big resolution and it turned out to be Daigo and Kazumi getting married.

No party reunited, no Haley/Elan or Roy/Celia, just about the same as when they left off. I personally didn't have a problem with it...I even thought it was interesting that they both have alliterative names.

EDIT: On the topic of Scrappy himself...correct me if I'm wrong, Timberboar, but I seem to remember that, before he became a living joke, he had only one gag:

Shaggy and Scooby try to hide, he gives them away with his "let me at 'em" schtick, Shaggy and Scooby drag him away as they run off.

If they left him behind, would he have beaten the guy in the rubber suit senseless, pulled off the mask, and said "Mystery's solved, let's go home now."? If he did, people would probably like him more.

[krossbow]

If they left him behind, would he have beaten the guy in the rubber suit senseless, pulled off the mask, and said "Mystery's solved, let's go home now."? If he did, people would probably like him more.



I don't know; in the movie scooby defeated him with a finger flick. If scooby can finger flick him, surely a random guy in a suit could have punted him.

[Mauve Shirt]

I love Kazumi and Daigo! SCRAPPIES??!!?!??!?!?!!!
Stupid wiki editor doesn't know what he's talking about. :smallmad:

[Querzis]

Well, I'm really surprised someone hate Daigo and Kazumi so much that he would consider them Scrappy too...but, sorry Timberboar, I'm a lot more surprised by the fact that someone actually liked Scrappy Doo :smalleek:! He only had one annoying line and thats it, he never did anything else.

Anyway, its a good thing someone edited that now. Daigo and Kazumi dont have enough screentime to be Scrappy even if you hate them anyway!

[Raging Gene Ray]

surely a random guy in a suit could have punted him

Yeah, but those random guys in suits were never too bright or athletic. At least Scrappy had the idea of taking the blunt "punch him in the face" approach that would have saved the gang so much time. Besides, if he got caught or beaten, it would have been a good opportunity for actual characterization, for Scrappy and the monster. Any monster, no matter how crappy, can become a lot scarier with one of these (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog) moments.

Back on topic: Kazumi and Daigo are great characters. Besides giving a face to every expendable Redshirt, their unborn child could affect the plot in numerous ways...or he/she could serve for nothing more than an 'Awwwwww' moment after some major triumph, or just prove that not everything has to be somehow related to the protagonists and their quest in order to exist.

[Alias]

Kazumi and Daigo remind me more of Wedge Antilles from Star Wars - y'know, the minor characters who somehow survive though you know they could die at any moment since they aren't important to the plot. You find yourself rooting for them since they don't have that divine 'the story must go on' protection that the main characters have.

[Roderick_BR]

The Order of the Stick has its share of Scrappies, depending on who you ask .... the two Azure City guards who survived by sticking around the main cast and saying their names.
Enphasis mine. This apparently was someone's personal opinion. The "two Azure City guards" that are mentioned hardly had enough exposition time to even be remembered when they first appeared to fill the "those other guys" role to make numbers in the comic during the war arch. I don't know why someone would qualify them for Scrappy.
It's like calling that barmaid that served pie for Captain America and Wolverine in a pre-Civil War story scrappy, even thought she showed for only half a dozen panels.

By the time they became regulars in the strip, they had lots of character development, but I still don't see how they would be considered Scrappy also. Daigo actually provides lots of humor comparing his "normal" behavior to the OotS's usual behavior.
Daigo: "Did you just cast an illusion of MORE orcs chasing us?"
Durkon: "Just wait and watch."

[pendell]

I *liked* Scrappy as a kid, on account of he was the only one of the Scooby gang who had a spine and didn't run away from the bad guys. I was indifferent about Scooby, but I *despised* Shaggy. Fed.Daphne/Vilma never really developed actual personality, although I kind of liked bookish Velma.

I was about 7 years old at the time. Once I got past the teenage years, 'Puppy PO-WERR!' made me wince. Maybe it's a demographic thing.

Maybe same thing with Jar-Jar Binks (also mentioned). I've heard a fair number of people who were pre-adolescent at the time Ep. I came out say they liked Jar-Jar Bink a lot -- and that *is*, after all, the fanbase George Lucas was writing for, not us old bitter 30-somethings with our plastic lightsabers who would love to rip him a new one for raping our childhood.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

PS. Han shot first -- that's why I like him!

[Kato]

Stated already, but another vote for it:
Free wiki's are often abused to spread the opinion of few people as general opinion. As most said, We DO like Daigo and Kazumi (Daigo slightly more, he had more screen time, I think) Probably one of those 'we want the order back, get rid of the NPC's!' guys.
Anyway... I liked scrappy as well... he was refreshing in contrast to the other cowards, though he'd really ended every episode in 5 min or so.

[dragongirl13]

WHAT THE HECK??? I LOVE Kazumi and Daigo! They're not as great as the main characters, but they're definitely not bad characters! They're awesome!

[teratorn]

WHAT THE HECK??? I LOVE Kazumi and Daigo! They're not as great as the main characters, but they're definitely not bad characters! They're awesome!

I «hate» them. They were a nice joke at the time, but they are not useful anymore. Kato adds nothing to the current storyline.

[Tengu]

Kazumi and Daigo are very sympathetic characters. OotS doesn't really have any scrappies - Miko was more of an antagonist than anything else (and well-written, just unlikable) and Celia is supposed to be too prim and proper to be sympathetic, while a scrappy is a character the creator expects you to like, but you don't.

TV Tropes have its share of people with bad weird tastes. One guy wrote that he hated Etna's Crowning Moment of Awesome in Disgaea 1 because he thought Maderas (the pathetic guy who was banished for stealing pretzels!) was cool.

[FoE]

I «hate» them. They were a nice joke at the time, but they are not useful anymore. Kato adds nothing to the current storyline.

GASP!

Teratorn, I confess I don't see how you can "hate" Kazumi and Daigo. Even if they don't add anything to the story except a couple of jokes, they're fringe characters. I would accept "indifference," but hatred is an emotion I just can't understand ...

As for the whole Scrappy Doo thing, the reason he's hated is that his inclusion on the show changed the whole dynamic of Scooby Doo. He was like Jar Jar Binks; there was no good reason for him to be there except as a joke character, and he hogged the spotlight to the detriment of the rest of the cast.

Though in fairness, Scrappy Doo is nowhere near as hateful as Flim Flam. :smallyuk:

[Tengu]

Well said. Scrappy is just a scrappy, Flim Flam is an ethnic scrappy.

[teratorn]

Even if they don't add anything to the story except a couple of jokes, they're fringe characters. I would accept "indifference," but hatred is an emotion I just can't understand ...

Come on, don't exaggerate the meaning of the word, "hatred" in this context means "not liking and wanting them to go away".

They are not fringe characters anymore. In the island arc Daigo sort of replaced Roy in the team. It didn't work, because there's nothing remarkable about him. With characters like "Chief" I used to think "hey great, here's that guy again". With Daigo it's more like "oh, it's the ex-soldier, now noble, boring guy."

[SPoD]

The fact that he's rarely used and undeveloped is why he CAN'T be a Scrappy. The whole point of the Scrappy is that he hogs the spotlight. Daigo has still only had about 20 appearances, and in many of them, he has no lines at all or serves only to be the temporary straight man to Elan. He IS a fringe character, until such time as we see Rich exploring his background and motivation in detail, with whole strips devoted to him.

You can dislike their inclusion, I guess, though it seems sort of pointless given the comic's lack of focus on them. But they sure aren't Scrappy Doo.

(Incidentally, their existence is pretty tied to TV Tropes anyway; they exist as a subversion of the Red Shirt trope, where the minor characters not only survive the deadly scene, but go on to live prosperous lives.)

[Jayngfet]

Come on, don't exaggerate the meaning of the word, "hatred" in this context means "not liking and wanting them to go away".

They are not fringe characters anymore. In the island arc Daigo sort of replaced Roy in the team. It didn't work, because there's nothing remarkable about him. With characters like "Chief" I used to think "hey great, here's that guy again". With Daigo it's more like "oh, it's the ex-soldier, now noble, boring guy."

Roy couldn't be there because y'know, he's dead, his corpse is on another continent, and his spirit isn't paying attention anymore, he's just playing D&D 1st edition with some lantern archon who can't even roll dice.

No one else could carry Durkon because Elan needed to cast a spell, V wasn't there, Haley and Belkar are off somewhere else, and again, roy's a rotting corpse in a cart.

Who else could've carried Durkon or done diplomacy, Kubota? Antagonist. Therkla? See above. Lien? Tied to a rock. Hinjo? Odds are ruling a destitute city with no land means you have things to do. Kazumi couldn't even do it thanks to pregnancy so you don't even have the whole duo to hate anymore.

[Isolder74]

Kazumi and Daigo remind me more of Wedge Antilles from Star Wars - y'know, the minor characters who somehow survive though you know they could die at any moment since they aren't important to the plot. You find yourself rooting for them since they don't have that divine 'the story must go on' protection that the main characters have.



Yes they do remind me of Wedge. Think about it in all the battle of all the pilots we see, who is the only one to fly away other then Wedge. one other and he isn't even named(unnamed Y-Wing pilot).

Scrappy was not liked because he was silly and was alway hogging the lime light. The two Azurites are simply just there, unless it is implied that the man and wife part dissapointed people because they all wanted it to be Haley/Elan.

[David Argall]

Come on, don't exaggerate the meaning of the word, "hatred" in this context means "not liking and wanting them to go away".

But that is what we are saying. Daigo & wife just don't rise to that level. Pretty much the worse we say about them is that they are nothing [which is incorrect even if they are rather minor contributions to the story]. Miko is our premier Scrappy here. She dominated the stage and the desires for her death were widespread. Daigo mostly stands in the background and does something minor and useful. Why concern yourself about him? Daigo might be in the running for weakest sister who does the least for the story, but that also means he is doing no harm either, so there are just few people with an active desire to see the last of him.

[Moff Chumley]

Um, I'm editing that article now. Actually, I'll be surprised if it hasn't been done yet...

[teratorn]

The fact that he's rarely used and undeveloped is why he CAN'T be a Scrappy. The whole point of the Scrappy is that he hogs the spotlight.
The fleet was seen for only about 25 strips in this new story arc. In those strips Daigo got married, became a noble, fought seat trolls and leveled up, went with Elan to orc-island, was captured and escaped. Elan hogs the spotlight but Daigo is doing stuff as interesting as the stuff Durkon's doing.

The first set of strips was related to his marriage, the second to his mission with Elan. I'm pretty sure he'll take part in the next set of strips. Daigo is now a NPC sidekick.

[SPoD]

The fleet was seen for only about 25 strips in this new story arc. In those strips Daigo got married, became a noble, fought seat trolls and leveled up, went with Elan to orc-island, was captured and escaped. Elan hogs the spotlight but Daigo is doing stuff as interesting as the stuff Durkon's doing.

But he didn't do any of that stuff on his own, he just tagged along. His existence didn't take screen time away from anyone else. He didn't save the day or figure out the plan, all he did was go along with the main characters.


The first set of strips was related to his marriage, the second to his mission with Elan. I'm pretty sure he'll take part in the next set of strips. Daigo is now a NPC sidekick.

I really think you're trying too hard to see it that way. None of that stuff was ABOUT Daigo, even his wedding; it was an excuse for the story to show Vaarsuvius ignoring the celebration everyone else was having. We didn't get 10 strips of the happy couple pledging their love to one another; we got strips showing how Hinjo is using them to political advantage, followed by the villain complaining about it. Daigo is nothing more than a plot facilitator and a fill-in for the physical role that Roy played (guy who could carry Durkon).

If anything, he's probably getting set up for a sympathetic death that will spur the main characters to action, probably at the hands of Kubota.

[Red XIV]

If anything, he's probably getting set up for a sympathetic death that will spur the main characters to action, probably at the hands of Kubota.
Then he reveals his last name to make it just a flesh wound.:smallbiggrin:

[teratorn]

If anything, he's probably getting set up for a sympathetic death that will spur the main characters to action, probably at the hands of Kubota.

Too much drama, his wife is expecting a child. I know about your spoiler senses, but that kind of stuff is prequel material.

Daigo is relatively safe in this forum as long as there is Celia, probably our best contender for Scrappy Doo status.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Come on, don't exaggerate the meaning of the word, "hatred" in this context means "not liking and wanting them to go away".
It means "intense or passionate dislike". It would be a good thing if people in general would stop using "hate" to mean "mild dislike".

[TigerHunter]

Um, I'm editing that article now. Actually, I'll be surprised if it hasn't been done yet...
Thanks. Saves me the trouble.