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JaxGaret
2008-06-11, 09:01 PM
I've seen it bandied about that the 3rd level Fighter encounter power Rain of Blows allows a Fighter to make 4 attacks. I disagree.

Here's the power's main text:

Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: The same or a different target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

I see three attacks. The two primary attacks on one target, and the one secondary attack on any target. The secondary attack doesn't refer to the primary attack at all, and vice versa. It's simply an extra attack added because of the weapon you are using, like other Weapon bonuses.

Compare it to Giant's Wake, a 13th level Fighter power that refers to the secondary attack right in the Hit section.

In addition, my interpretation would be pretty comparable to the other 3rd level Fighter encounter powers.

EDIT: I'm actually going to have to reverse my statements here, since I've found two 23rd level Fighter encounter powers (Cage of Steel and Skullcrusher) which agree with the interpretation that it is an extra attack on a hit, since both of those have the same nomenclature as Rain of Blows, and both have an effect (restraining the enemy or blinding them) that obviously does not occur on a miss.

Yeah, it's a CharOp's wet dream of a power.

marjan
2008-06-11, 09:17 PM
I agree with you on this. AFAIK secondary attack is something that happens after the primary attack. In this case primary attack just happens to consist of two attacks. It should be written like this IMO:

Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: The same or a different target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

This would help avoid confusion. And I believe that even if this is not RAW, it is at least RAI.

EDIT: I believe that this power is also poorly worded, as in section they talk about powers it says that the power should state when you qualify for secondary attack: when you hit, miss or regardless.

Dark Tira
2008-06-11, 09:25 PM
This would help avoid confusion. And I believe that even if this is not RAW, it is at least RAI.

EDIT: I believe that this power is also poorly worded, as in section they talk about powers it says that the power should state when you qualify for secondary attack: when you hit, miss or regardless.

Actually, I think it was intended to be a 1 or 2 hit attack that ended up being templated wrong. The way it's worded has small flaws that don't quite match up with similar powers. I think Jax is right about it by RAW though, it is 3 attacks.

FoE
2008-06-11, 09:45 PM
The way I read it, it's two attacks if you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher.

wodan46
2008-06-11, 10:05 PM
If it were only 2 hits when wielding a light blade and 1 otherwise, it would be too weak. Makes more sense as 2 hits + 1 hit if you have a light blade.

Edea
2008-06-11, 10:22 PM
The way I read it, it's two attacks if you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher.

That's how I read it, too.

Dark Tira
2008-06-11, 10:31 PM
That's how I read it, too.

The two attacks line throws off that interpretation though. Jax is right was right to compare it to Giant's Wake which shows that a secondary attack is not included in the two attacks line, or you could look at the Ranger's Two Wolf Pounce which is a two attack that also has a secondary attack.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-12, 05:56 AM
I still maintain that the indentation makes a difference. It seems to carry the implication that the secondary attack triggers off the "Hit" effect whereas most secondary attacks do not.

I'd also point out that numerically this works out roughly the same. If you're hitting 50% of the time, it comes out as 3 attacks on average.

JaxGaret
2008-06-12, 06:24 PM
I still maintain that the indentation makes a difference. It seems to carry the implication that the secondary attack triggers off the "Hit" effect whereas most secondary attacks do not.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I don't think indentation in and of itself means what you think it means, rules-wise. All of the Weapon bonuses are indented, for example.


I'd also point out that numerically this works out roughly the same. If you're hitting 50% of the time, it comes out as 3 attacks on average.

If you hit 50% of the time, yes, it works out to the same average. But if you're hitting more than 50% of the time, then your interpretation is superior in damage output, and it becomes the kind of power that tends to lead to op abuse, like Blade Cascade.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-12, 07:34 PM
It does seem to me that you do get 2 to 4 attacks (if you have the right weapon)


The fact that it says two attacks in that attack section, and not the Hit section, implies that you follow the steps twice.

The first time you follow the steps, you roll to see if you hit. When you hit you do the normal weapon damage as well as get a secondary attack.

You then follow the steps a second time, making an attack, and if you hit you get another attack.

Depending on how good your attacks rolls were you would then get in between 2 and 4 attacks. This would then match the power description. It doesn't sound like 'rain of blows' unless you can do more then 3 attacks. Since you can only do this power with weaker weapons, it seems balanced with the other powers. It would be too powerfull if you could do this attack with a heavy blade, but it is fine with a light blade.

Siosilvar
2008-06-12, 07:45 PM
You then follow the steps a second time, making an attack, and if you hit you get another attack.

If you do follow the steps twice, then it would seem that you should only follow the steps that pertain to that attack twice. Otherwise, what is the point of the secondary attack line?

The power, as worded, seems to be saying "use these first 3 lines for your first attack, and if the Weapon lines apply to you, go ahead and use the last 3 lines for the secondary attack."

marjan
2008-06-12, 08:14 PM
You need to look at then indentation.

By the indentation it says that if you hit with an attack roll

Care to point to the rules that says indentations means something more than style of formating.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-12, 08:25 PM
You need to look at the indentation. Everything that is indented says what happens on a hit.

When you hit the following two things happens
1) you do 1[W] + stength damage
2) if you are carrying the right weapon you get a secondary attack.


The 'two attacks' on the attack line imply that you roll to see if you hit twice. Each of these two times that you hit you roll for damage, and make another attack.

JaxGaret
2008-06-12, 08:28 PM
Except that the Hit section doesn't state anything like that. On a Hit, you deal 1[W] + Str damage, period. You don't get an extra attack from landing a Hit; you get an extra attack for wielding the right type of Weapon.

ocato
2008-06-12, 08:39 PM
Except that the Hit section doesn't state anything like that. On a Hit, you deal 1[W] + Str damage, period. You don't get an extra attack from landing a Hit; you get an extra attack for wielding the right type of Weapon.

I've yet to hear any other interpretation than this one, leading me to believe that the 3-4 hit idea is crazy talk.

JaxGaret
2008-06-12, 08:48 PM
I've yet to hear any other interpretation than this one, leading me to believe that the 3-4 hit idea is crazy talk.

In the OP I stated that the power grants you three attacks if you are wielding the right type of weapon.

The Weapon-bonus secondary attack is an extra attack on top of the two attacks that you get normally. This is in line with the other 3rd level Fighter encounter powers.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-12, 08:56 PM
The indentation is very consitent. Look at Armor-Piercing Thrist on the same page.

Here it has an "attack:" line that says strength vs Reflex. Underneigth it is "weapon" indented. In this case it describes how the right weapon modifies your atatck roll by allowing you to add on dexterity.

Furthor below under "Hit" it was another "weapon" line indented. Here It describes how your weapon adjusts what happens when you hit.


In Sweeping blow , weapon is indented under the "attack" line. Again it describes how your weapon modifes your to hit roll.

In giants wake on page 81, It very clearly show that you get a second attack only when you hit. here all Everything about the secondary attack is indented, underneith Hit. Why is it indented? because it all only happens when you hit, and is part of the hit paragraph.

Just look at the indenting of any power such as Villians menace on page 78. Here what happens on a hit, can not fit on one line, and the rest of the description is indented.

The fact that 'weapon' is indented in rain of blows, implies that this desciption is part of the "hit" paragraph. You get a secondary attack if you hit and you have the right weapon.

Plus it is just basic document structure. If in Word you have a bulleted list and you indent one of the bullets, it implies that it is a sub point of the bullet above it.

marjan
2008-06-12, 09:13 PM
In giants wake on page 81, It very clearly show that you get a second attack only when you hit. here all Everything about the secondary attack is indented, underneith Hit. Why is it indented? because it all only happens when you hit, and is part of the hit paragraph.


Which just shows that if the condition to get secondary attack is to hit someone it will be stated.



Just look at the indenting of any power such as Villians menace on page 78. Here what happens on a hit, can not fit on one line, and the rest of the description is indented.


And if you take closer look at such powers you will see that everything related to Hit has same background color. And now take a look at the secondary attack of the Rain of Blows.



The fact that 'weapon' is indented in rain of blows, implies that this desciption is part of the "hit" paragraph. You get a secondary attack if you hit and you have the right weapon.


It doesn't imply. There is nothing in section where they clarify power formating that says, or even implies that.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-12, 09:33 PM
Another convention that I found is if a secondary attack happens regardless if the attack hits or not, it is in the effect section. See Storm of blows page 82, or the ranger power two-wolf pounce on page 107.

Plus walock pacts, and rogue paths have a syntax exactly like the weapon one. If a Warlock pact modifes a hit roll , the name of the pact is bolded and indented under attack section. If it the pact modifes damage or effect when you hit the target it is indented under , hit. If it takes affect on a miss , it is indented under that.

If this secondary atatck for the fighter was supposed to happen regardless if you hit the target or not it would be worded as follows:


Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect
____Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
____and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
____Secondary Target: The same or a different target
____Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
____Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

and not

Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
____Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail
____and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.
____Secondary Target: The same or a different target
____Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
____Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

JaxGaret
2008-06-12, 09:48 PM
I'm actually going to have to reverse my statements here, since I've found two 23rd level Fighter encounter powers (Cage of Steel and Skullcrusher) which agree with the interpretation that it is an extra attack on a hit, since both of those have the same nomenclature as Rain of Blows, and both have an effect (restraining the enemy or blinding them) that obviously does not occur on a miss.

Yeah, it's a CharOp's wet dream of a power.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-06-12, 10:12 PM
I disagree that it is an overpower power though

1) you need 15 dexterity, which means either strength or constition will need to be lower then normal, and these are generally more usefull for a fighter. You well there fore be either less acurate or die easier.

2) You only get the secondary attacks if you hit with the primary. The chances of getting and then hitting with all four atatcks will be rare.

3) Well I was going to say that it can only be used with lower damage weapons, but it can be used with a flail and that is a copy of a battle axe.


The problem with the power is allows the use of a flail. Otherwise it would be balanced. Otherwise used with a light blade it would be themetic, and balanced. A fighter with crushing blow would have 9+ bonus in damage in one hit. That should match about 3 hits with a short sword.

I say house rule out the use of a flail with this power.

Roderick_BR
2008-06-13, 08:55 AM
Wow, I had to read that several times, including what is being discussed here.
So, here's the interpretations:

1st) Make one attack. You gain a secondary attack if you are using one of the mentioned weapons.
2nd) Make two attacks. You gain a secondary attack if you are using one of the mentioned weapons, besides the two first attacks.
3rd) Make two attacks. You gain a secondary attack for EACH of those 2 initial attacks if you are using one of the mentioned weapons.

Basically, the 1st interpretation means that this power is only useful for the mentioned weapons, and useless for everything else, like trying to use a TWF power when using only one weapon.
The others could be right, but I guess they'd need to add "third" and "fourth" attack descriptions.
Hmmm.... yeah, needs Errata, badly. You can't say which option is correct at this point.

McMindflayer
2008-06-13, 09:34 PM
From what I've read of all the powers and the first section before classes about primary, Secondary and Tertiary attacks is that if you get more than one attack, It will be called a secondary and terriary attacks. Even if it's the same type of attack.

So When it mentions two attacks, that means this power allows you to make two attacks. Primary and Secondary.
So This only has 1-2 attacks. every other power has this unless specifically stated, like the rangers does when it mentions that you can use attack with both weapons.

Now, I don't have the book on me ATM to back it up with examples, but from what it looks like the indent is to represent a note. an aside if you will. If you are wielding a certain type of weapon you can make another attack, and then it gives that secondary attack information below it in the same indent. So You shouldn't have to be able to hit to acheive a secondary attack.