Dire camels in a swamp?

[ABB]

Ok, given I'm not into D&D I wanted to ask people who were about belkar's remark about fighting 1d3 dire camels in a swamp. First off, is there such a thing as a dire camel, and second could you encounter them in a swamp?

[SPoD]

1.) No.
2.) Only if the encounter table was written without any thought to ecology, as many are.

[David Argall]

Any animal can be made into a dire form. I think there is a template for that. If not, it is not hard to create one.

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think there's a template (I thought Dire animals were just 1 or 2 size catagories bigger while having better physical stats).

[Tingel]

Dire animals aren't simply bigger and stronger - otherwise a dire camel wouldn't be very scary, since camels are rather peaceful animals. Dire animals are in fact dire.

Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals. Each kind tends to have a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance.

[King of Nowhere]

And sometimes the master uses for random encounters a random beast of appropriate power, regardless of other considerations. Anyway, I'm sure those dire camels had a perfectly good reason to be there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html), even if the PCs never knew it.

[Roderick_BR]

Yes, you can find cammels on swamps:

DM: "And suddenly, you see a cammel walking towards you..."
Player: "Wait, what? A cammel? We are in a frigging swamp! What is a cammel doing here?"
DM: "hmm.... He's attacking! Roll initiative!"

So, depends on how crazy your DM is.

The joke is really about how sometimes a DM can put a creature in a place that have nothing to do with it, specially if he's using a weird table, or even the wrong table, because he was lazy to pick a better one.

[hamishspence]

Dire was represented as a template by a 3rd party source: I think either Necromancer Games or Mongoose Publishing. As it stands dire template does not exist in 3rd ed. Sandstorm had the camelopardel, a magic beast a bit like a dire camel might be, and several versions of camel including the war camel, but no dire camels (dire hippos, tortoises, pumas, but not camels)

There are many dire beasts out there in the rules.

[Zolem]

There is a dire-animal mainstream template. I believe it was in savage races. And to answer the questions....

1) Yes, it was in a 3rd party published adventure my DM ran.

2) If your DM just has a random encounter list based soly on level and not enviroment, easily.

[Red XIV]

Dire animals aren't simply bigger and stronger - otherwise a dire camel wouldn't be very scary, since camels are rather peaceful animals.
You've never actually met a camel, have you? They tend to be fairly ill-tempered creatures.

[TigerHunter]

You've never actually met a camel, have you? They tend to be fairly ill-tempered creatures.
The spitting also warrants mentioning.

[Tingel]

You've never actually met a camel, have you? They tend to be fairly ill-tempered creatures.
I have met camels on numerous occasions, both of the Arabian and the Bactrian variety, and never did I have to fight them. It is safe to say that an encounter with camels is more than unlikely to lead to combat - and that was my point. Camels are easily domesticated herbivores, and they don't spit unless you pester them.

Camels are rather peaceful animals, and need to be "dire" to pose a risk to adventurers.

[holywhippet]

I have met camels on numerous occasions, both of the Arabian and the Bactrian variety, and never did I have to fight them. It is safe to say that an encounter with camels is more than unlikely to lead to combat - and that was my point. Camels are easily domesticated herbivores, and they don't spit unless you pester them.

Camels are rather peaceful animals, and need to be "dire" to pose a risk to adventurers.

From Wikipedia:


Attempts have been made to employ camels as cavalry and dragoon mounts and as freight animals in lieu of horses and mules. In some places, such as Australia, some of the camels have become feral and are considered to be dangerous to travelers on camels.

[Bandanna Jones]

The spitting also warrants mentioning.

...I suddenly know what I want to apply that Acidborn template to.

[Jayngfet]

No, that was the joke.

Also, feral camels of australia. Awesome.

[Tingel]

From Wikipedia:
This once again proves that wikipedia can be a bad source for information. The "feral" camels in Australia are just as unaggressive as other camels - they're simply not domesticated and (if anything) become a problem by eating crops.

The only reason why they might "become dangerous" (as the wikipedia article claims) to travelers on camels is because they might try to mingle with the mounts, and since tourists on camel-back are not trained in animal handling they can lose control over their camel.

Even the feral camels of Australia do not attack humans, and so encountering them in a swamp would not lead to battle (unless the adventurer attacks first, maybe).

[Oberon]

I have a better question: How did he know it was "1d3" camels? If he encountered them, wouldn't he know the exact number rather than what dice range they were in?

My conclusion is that it sounds funnier that way.

[Arkenputtyknife]

You've never actually met a camel, have you? They tend to be fairly ill-tempered creatures.
Mm, indeed. Yes, I've met a camel. Yes, it was the meanest, orneriest critter I've ever come across. No, I've never wanted to meet another.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I have a better question: How did he know it was "1d3" camels? If he encountered them, wouldn't he know the exact number rather than what dice range they were in?

My conclusion is that it sounds funnier that way.

I think you answered your own question there. Plus a dire camel is as threatening as a dire cow.

[Ellen]

Knowing Belkar, they could have been peaceful, nonaggresive camels he just assumed were dire and a random encounter.

[Waspinator]

The short answer is yes to both parts if the DM wills it so. The chief rule of D&D (and most RPGs) is that the DM can do anything that they want. Now, they usually want to stay within some bounds due to the fact that they need to keep the game fun or their players will leave, but they still have a lot of power. If you build or modify your own gameworld, you can stick camels wherever you want and noone can really stop you.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was just thinking about the Dire Bovine comment: someone mentioned on a thread a while back in FB about bovines being bigger and more aggressive before they were domesticated (the process resulted in them suffering from spesice-wide Int damage while causing them to become smaller). I'm guessing that even a modern domestic cow could cause some damage to a human if she wanted it.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I'm guessing that even a modern domestic cow could cause some damage to a human if she wanted it.
They can and they do. Google "dairy injuries".

[hamishspence]

Savage Races: what is that? I've seen Savage Species, but that has no dire template: Feral Creature is for humanoids.

Eberron Campaign setting does have Horrid Creature template, which can be applied to any Dire Creature.

[puzpuz]

There's no Dire Camel in any book, but theoreticaly, there is such a thing. There are very detailed instructions to make a monster of your own, which is a thing that a DM (or GM) allowed to do. Of course that finding a dire camel in a swamp is not logical, but a DM can do such a thing, according to the rules.

In summary; the DM is allowed to do ANYTHING. You can choose if you like him or not by the situations that he creates for you, but you can't change his way of act.

Sorry if you couldn't understand my English, I'm not an English-speaker...

[Spiryt]

About dangerous camels : they weight about 0,5 tonne, can move pretty quickly, and have damn big hooves. So certainly they can kick to death.

However, as Tingel is saying, they're definetly not fighting animals, and won't be a big threat to guy who have spear/sword and know anything about it.

Let alone D&D warrior types who start to make rather insane thing with weapons even about 6 level.

[hamishspence]

I mean the Dire template: as far as I know, it has never been seen in a WOTC product. in the Tomb of Horrors monster books published by a third party, I did see Dire mentioned as a subtype, suggesting it might have a template, but not in WOTC.

[Waspinator]

It's pretty easy to make "Dire" things though. Just advance the hit dice a few times, make it bigger and meaner looking, and have it attack on sight. You're pretty much done.

[Lorn]

I'm guessing that even a modern domestic cow could cause some damage to a human if she wanted it.
Having recently walked through a cowfield to get back to the town centre, I'm pretty sure they could... those things get huge. Also, let's face it: you do NOT want to get bitten by this.

http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/5157_1_230.jpeg

Having said that, there's something funny about cows. Not sure what it is.

[Tempest Fennac]

I never knew bovines had fangs (those look really nasty, especially when you factor the animal's natural strength in). I was mainly understating how leathal they can be, Arkenputtyknife (most of the time, I think they prefer to be left alone, though, unless I'm really confused about how they behave).

[RebelRogue]

I actually once used fiendish dire cows as minions of a dragon. Sort of silly, yet pretty funny (it was a game played with kids anyway, so it was all good). It was fun to play them slightly apathetic :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, my favourite random dire animal fact is this: dire elephants have a climb speed! I kid you not! This is the source of many laughs in my gaming group! :smallsmile:

[Tingel]

I never knew bovines had fangs (those look really nasty, especially when you factor the animal's natural strength in).
I hope you realize that Lorn's picture was photoshopped. Bovines obviously do not have fangs, or any sharp teeth at all for that matter.

[Tempest Fennac]

I didn't realise it was photo shopped. I thought it looked odd due to thinking that bovine's teeth were only designed to chew vegetation, though.

[Gamerlord]

It's pretty easy to make "Dire" things though. Just advance the hit dice a few times, make it bigger and meaner looking, and have it attack on sight. You're pretty much done. And make it fiendish too for some REAL fun.

[Jops]

I know of a GM who had his party encounter a kraken in a frigging desert.

*sigh*

He even had the whole valley mysteriously fill with water, just like that, to create the envroinement for the big squid...

[LuisDantas]

One has to wonder just how "dire" can a 1D3 animal be, too. Moreso when it is so hopelessly out of his environment.

[DementedFellow]

You've never actually met a camel, have you? They tend to be fairly ill-tempered creatures.
I've met a couple. They were all tame except for the one who wanted to nibble on me and lick my hair. Apparently I resembled a salt lick to it, but I was by no means in danger.

Camels are awesome. I'd rather have a camel than a horse any day of the week, and twice on Thursday.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

One has to wonder just how "dire" can a 1D3 animal be, too. Moreso when it is so hopelessly out of his environment.

1d3 is the number of dire camels encountered, not the Hit Dice. :smallwink:

Camels are Large size (I think... Just moved and all my D&D stuff is still in boxes), so Belkar also faces a size penalty.

I would think that the "swamp" was actually once an oasis, corrupted by a foul demon and his minions, spreading across the desert sands. The "dire camels" are the first stage to a later "dire, fiendish camels," ridden by demons to capture the silk and carpet trade of the desert.

If you think about it for a bit, you can build up an entire adventure around a throw-away line like that.

[Ninjamuffin]

One has to wonder just how "dire" can a 1D3 animal be, too. Moreso when it is so hopelessly out of his environment.

I dunno..... It'd have to be pretty tough to survive in an environment that's so radically different from its normal one......

[Leewei]

Dire Camel
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (33 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+14
Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d8+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Track*
Environment: Warm deserts or warm swamps
Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (1d3)
Challenge Rating: 3
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

Dire Camels are known for their ability to travel long distances without food or water, as well as their adaptability and startlingly omnivorous nature. While normally content to forage grasses, Dire Camels are documented as traveling for days following the scent trail of their natural prey, Halflings.

Combat
While they have no special skill at this, Dire Camels will seek to attack by ambush whenever possible.

[hamishspence]

hee hee hee.

Concerning krakens in the dersert, Sandstorm had mummified krakens used as siege engines in the marruspawn wars of long ago: so the idea of krakens in desert has been done.

[maxon]

I never knew bovines had fangs (those look really nasty, especially when you factor the animal's natural strength in).

pssst - photoshop

[Sir_Elderberry]

1d3 is the number of dire camels encountered, not the Hit Dice. :smallwink:

Camels are Large size (I think... Just moved and all my D&D stuff is still in boxes), so Belkar also faces a size penalty.

I would think that the "swamp" was actually once an oasis, corrupted by a foul demon and his minions, spreading across the desert sands. The "dire camels" are the first stage to a later "dire, fiendish camels," ridden by demons to capture the silk and carpet trade of the desert.

If you think about it for a bit, you can build up an entire adventure around a throw-away line like that.

Thus was a Fantasy-d20-Dune RPG born.

[Gamerlord]

Having recently walked through a cowfield to get back to the town centre, I'm pretty sure they could... those things get huge. Also, let's face it: you do NOT want to get bitten by this.

http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/5157_1_230.jpeg

Having said that, there's something funny about cows. Not sure what it is.
AHHHHHHH! VAMPIRE COWS! THAT CAN LIVE IN THE SUN!

[RebelRogue]

hee hee hee.

Concerning krakens in the dersert, Sandstorm had mummified krakens used as siege engines in the marruspawn wars of long ago: so the idea of krakens in desert has been done.
"Did you open another can of shrimp paste, or a we in for another random encounter?" :smallwink:

[Chronos]

Special Attacks: —You forgot that they spit.

Spit (Ex): Once every ten minutes, the dire camel can spit a foul substance at opponents. The camel makes a ranged attack roll, with a maximum range of 30 feet (no range increment). If it succeeds, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 15) or be blinded for one hour. The save DC is Con-based. Creatures without eyes are not subject to this attack.

Really, regular camels should have this, too.

[Doug Lampert]

Dire Camel
Size/Type: Large AnimalDire animals are almost always bigger than the normal version.
Huge Animal

Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (33 hp)
Since a normal camel is large it's got at least 2HD, probably 3HD, and this one should be bigger and tougher.
8d8+40 (76 hp)

Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12Increasing the size from large to huge adds 3 more to natural AC.
17 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14

As has been mentioned by Chronos you forgot the Spit attack. Which is the BASIC camel attack. IMAO though this should do loads of acid damage for a DIRE SPIT.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Thus was a Fantasy-d20-Dune RPG born.

If you were Lady Elderberry I'd ask you to marry me.

[hamishspence]

WOTC camels do not have a spit attack. See sandstorm. Nice idea though.

[Spiryt]

WOTC camels do not have a spit attack. See sandstorm. Nice idea though.

:smallconfused:

Camels are in SRD.

[hamishspence]

Sandstorm camels were published later. Plus am a little unsure about SRD only content: if its not errata, and its not in a book, it may be SRD but I don't use it. Prefer something thats actually been published.

[cenghiz]

Uh... I'm forced to disagree...

Camels? Peaceful?

Camels weight half a tonne. Most of it is muscle. They can charge in full speed in desert without a problem, bash and trample, bite off a chunk of flesh with their vegetation-chewing teeth and their kicks are.. thankfully I've been told they prefer to trample and their kicks are weak.

Furthermore, when not domesticated or when they get wild because of a mating season - it's common that an adult male breaks his chain and escapes, or so I'm told - male camels set on a quest to form herds of female camels to mate non-stop for days and days till they can barely stand erect. During that time, if you approach to their area with a female camel, you're in trouble. Your camel is now theirs. You'll be bashed, trampled, possibly heavily injured and your camel will be kidnapped. If you see a male camel charging at you, mouth foaming, letting out a growl, you roll a will save with the DC 36 or become shaken for the rest of the encounter (I personally experienced).

In arabia you are often advised to leave your camel and run away if you see a male camel running at you. You can always come back later with friends, track the male camel, find the herd, wait the mating period to expire and take your hopefully pregnant and more valuable camel back with no resistance. So I believe in Australia it's not an oh-my-god-wild-camel-snuggled-at-the-camel-of-the-tourist-and-the-tourist-fell situation, rather an oh-my-god-the-wild-camel-bashed-the-tourist-trampled-the-tourist-took-his-camel-and-left-him-in-the-desert-bleeding-to-death situation.

Note: The information I have above is only about arabian camels. Of course some of it may also be exaggaration of arabian friends. Not sure at all.

[Leewei]

Dire animals are almost always bigger than the normal version.
Huge Animal

Since a normal camel is large it's got at least 2HD, probably 3HD, and this one should be bigger and tougher.
8d8+40 (76 hp)
Increasing the size from large to huge adds 3 more to natural AC.
17 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14

As has been mentioned by Chronos you forgot the Spit attack. Which is the BASIC camel attack. IMAO though this should do loads of acid damage for a DIRE SPIT.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.