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Burley
2008-06-12, 08:52 AM
Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good? Could you afflict a very evil person with werebear bites? Then, being the evil person they are, they'd try to use their power for evil, but when they willingly changed form, they become Lawful Good.

Is it the answer to chaotic evil players?

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-12, 09:04 AM
I thought that Lycanthropy perminantly changed the alignment of whoever was afflicted with it. If it works that way, they wouldn't need to shift voluntarily.

Mewtarthio
2008-06-12, 09:40 AM
I believe they'd know from the start that they'd become LG if they shifted willingly. You could, however, keep them prisoner until they eventually became aware of their condition and failed the Will save to avoid alignment shift.

Burley
2008-06-12, 09:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.

Mewtarthio
2008-06-12, 09:56 AM
I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

From the SRD:

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.


But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean stupid. If you give a CE guy a nuclear bomb that can only be detonated at point-blank range, he's not going to push the button just because that's a lot of power. He's also not going to sacrifice his free will just to get stronger.

MammonAzrael
2008-06-12, 10:09 AM
But apparently he'll have to make a Will save every time he changes, no matter what. And he will eventually fail that save. So I guess it works? Still a weird concept though.

But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

SurlySeraph
2008-06-12, 01:34 PM
Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good? Could you afflict a very evil person with werebear bites? Then, being the evil person they are, they'd try to use their power for evil, but when they willingly changed form, they become Lawful Good.

Is it the answer to chaotic evil players?

That is far too awesome not to work.

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 02:32 PM
But apparently he'll have to make a Will save every time he changes, no matter what. And he will eventually fail that save. So I guess it works? Still a weird concept though.

But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

marjan
2008-06-12, 02:44 PM
I believe they'd know from the start that they'd become LG if they shifted willingly. You could, however, keep them prisoner until they eventually became aware of their condition and failed the Will save to avoid alignment shift.

That, might not be the case. Lycatrophy states just that the afflicted creature is aware of it's condition (which isn't always same as knowing all about new condition). Since it is disease it might be possible that they only know that they can shift into animal, and not the other consequences of doing it. If the target makes appropriate knowledge check, then it would be aware of it, but I don't believe it to be auto-knowledge check.

Look at it this way: It's a disease. When you get sick and symptoms start manifesting, you obviously know that there is something unusual happening with you, but you don't know exactly what until you go to see a doctor.


But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

Note that change in alignment is permanent and that he is now LG. When he switches to animal form he acts according to his LG alignment, so there is no possibility to do something against his alignment, so he doesn't have to fear of doing something evil due to lack of control. Even if he cures it, because of some other reason (example: he doesn't like loosing control over his actions), he will still retain his LG alignment as the change is permanent.

marjan
2008-06-12, 02:49 PM
It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

It is usually most common alignment of the creatures, when speaking generally. In case of Wereanimal it is not the alignment of animal, but the "feel" of the nature of those animals. Weather that "feel" follows any logic is something beyond me.

Mewtarthio
2008-06-12, 02:58 PM
It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.


That, might not be the case. Lycatrophy states just that the afflicted creature is aware of it's condition (which isn't always same as knowing all about new condition). Since it is disease it might be possible that they only know that they can shift into animal, and not the other consequences of doing it. If the target makes appropriate knowledge check, then it would be aware of it, but I don't believe it to be auto-knowledge check.

Look at it this way: It's a disease. When you get sick and symptoms start manifesting, you obviously know that there is something unusual happening with you, but you don't know exactly what until you go to see a doctor.

That seems a touch unfair if applied to all lycanthropes equally:

You discover that you now have the power to transform into a wolf!
"Hey, cool, let me try it out..."
Congrats, you become Chaotic Evil and are now an NPC. Roll a new character.

Besides, most werewolf stories in which succumbing to wolfish nature is a risk have plenty of angst over the characters trying to battle their animal urges (represented by the Will save).


Note that change in alignment is permanent and that he is now LG. When he switches to animal form he acts according to his LG alignment, so there is no possibility to do something against his alignment, so he doesn't have to fear of doing something evil due to lack of control. Even if he cures it, because of some other reason (example: he doesn't like loosing control over his actions), he will still retain his LG alignment as the change is permanent.

There's always atonement or a natural shift in alignment (ie character development). I'd say that the latter is impossible until the curse is lifted, though, as whatever progress is made would be undone on the next change.

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 03:26 PM
[QUOTE=Mewtarthio;4453455]It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

The Rose Dragon
2008-06-12, 03:32 PM
What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

He is being sarcastic, foo'.

Renegade Paladin
2008-06-12, 03:37 PM
It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?
Might want to get your sarcasm meter looked at; it seems broken. :smalltongue:

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 03:42 PM
It is usually most common alignment of the creatures, when speaking generally. In case of Wereanimal it is not the alignment of animal, but the "feel" of the nature of those animals. Weather that "feel" follows any logic is something beyond me.

in other words assumed alignment

marjan
2008-06-12, 03:43 PM
That seems a touch unfair if applied to all lycanthropes equally:

You discover that you now have the power to transform into a wolf!
"Hey, cool, let me try it out..."
Congrats, you become Chaotic Evil and are now an NPC. Roll a new character.

Besides, most werewolf stories in which succumbing to wolfish nature is a risk have plenty of angst over the characters trying to battle their animal urges (represented by the Will save).


It's not completely unfair, since they get a will save to keep their alignment. If they do that for the first time DC is pretty low. If they are doing it constantly then it is completely fair - you want power, deal with consequences. And if he argues that he didn't know what will happen, well - Ignorance is poor excuse.

Well, in many stories that I read (not many I have to say) if the characters are resisting changing into animal (IOW they only do it on full moon, when they can't resist it no matter what), then you have no problem with alignment since it's not voluntary change (however they will still go and slaughter innocent people, which is what being CE usually do).

If they voluntarily change, they will get will save, in case they make they will still slaughter people, but that won't cost them their alignment (note that this is generous in D&D, since turning into killing machine is very evil thing to do, usually). If they fail their save, oh well you gambled, you lost, live with it.



There's always atonement or a natural shift in alignment (ie character development). I'd say that the latter is impossible until the curse is lifted, though, as whatever progress is made would be undone on the next change.

Neither of those should work IMO until the curse is lifted. And for atonement, I have to wonder why would anyone who is good want to become evil, and opposite, without it naturally happening. That spell is IMO only useful for fallen Paladins and Clerics.

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 03:43 PM
Might want to get your sarcasm meter looked at; it seems broken. :smalltongue:

hard to tell when some one's being sarcastic by typing

marjan
2008-06-12, 03:44 PM
in other words assumed alignment

Exactly. Did I say it has to always make sense?

Swiftpaw Fatfox
2008-06-12, 03:52 PM
Exactly. Did I say it has to always make sense?

lol, no. and most of the time it doesn't. The issue of alignment is one of the reasons I like the EQRPG better.

Ned the undead
2008-06-12, 08:47 PM
I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.
I just pictured a kid who played Gloop in a play I teched for when I read this. Best child actor EVAR.

Collin152
2008-06-12, 09:16 PM
hard to tell when some one's being sarcastic by typing

He called Bears peaceful herbivores.
:smallamused:

Worira
2008-06-12, 09:37 PM
It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.


Also, bears live in hives.

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-12, 09:51 PM
Lycanthrope alignments are based entirely on TV/movie logic rather than any kind of common sense. Movie werewolves are 99% of the time crazy evil killers, so they are CE.

I guess the other were-animal alignments were somehow based on comparing them with were-wolves.

Collin152
2008-06-12, 10:03 PM
Also, bears live in hives.

That's why honey-bottles are shaped like bears, right?

marjan
2008-06-12, 10:12 PM
That's why honey-bottles are shaped like bears, right?

No, that's why bears are shaped like honey-bottles.

BizzaroStormy
2008-06-12, 10:13 PM
Here's a good question, why does transformation change your alignment at all? I could understand if this was the kind of werewolf that goes nuts on the night of the full moon then wakes up in human form the next day with no recollection of what happened but thats simply not the case here.

Collin152
2008-06-12, 10:14 PM
No, that's why bears are shaped like honey-bottles.

Like how humans look like sculptures?

marjan
2008-06-12, 10:23 PM
Here's a good question, why does transformation change your alignment at all? I could understand if this was the kind of werewolf that goes nuts on the night of the full moon then wakes up in human form the next day with no recollection of what happened but thats simply not the case here.

Since the transformation has to voluntary, in order for you to be subject to alignment change, and you act according to the new alignment, you are showing approval of the new forms action and that is pretty much enough to change your alignment.


Like how humans look like sculptures?

No. Sculptures don't have honey. :smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-06-12, 10:25 PM
No. Sculptures don't have honey. :smallbiggrin:

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd photoshop evidence on the contrary.
You win this time, Michalangelo's David...

SilverClawShift
2008-06-12, 11:42 PM
Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good?

See, my group just avoids this whole nonsense of a disease changing your alignment. It's too much to try to process in any kind of comfortable way, and there's no elegant solutions (at least, none we've found).

A good person becomes a werewolf and turns evil? Have they lost free will? Or are they being pushed into evil behavior? And if they're being pushed, are they truly evil? Is it just their evil tendencies being laid bare, their goodness stripped away, and if so is it really fair to EVER inflict on a player character?

And the werebear thing is even weirder, for the reasons mentioned.

Nuts to that.

At our table, Lycanthropy is "The Beast Within" being exposed. Your natural, raw, animal instincts ('tinted' by the type of lycanthropy you're afflicted with) being pushed to the surface with claw and fangs.
An evil person afflicted with lycanthropy will just go on a blood soaked rampage, regardless of what were-animal bit them.
Even a generally normal person, with normal desires and fears, will probably do a fair degree of slaughtering in hybrid form. If they have strong aversions or goals, they might still work towards them in hybrid or animal form, but definately in a more primal fashion.

A TRULY good person, either pious or simply kind hearted, will remain so even as an animal. Though they will be wild. A paladin were-rat will not likely be looking for a SURRENDER while they slink through the alleys, but they will still be tracking down evil creatures and attempting to aid the innocent.

That's us though. Your mileage may vary.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-06-12, 11:53 PM
According to a modern interpretation of the werewolf mythos, it signifies the fight between nature and culture, or the savage/animalistic and humane.
The human is struggling between his true, human nature, and that which is imposed upon him (the wolf/animalistic)
Since the wolf in this case is a savage killer who doesn't understand its actions the human who fights against his curse is not going to loose the alignment, but the person who fully embraces the aspect of the wolf nature becomes savage and becomes fully enveloped in the nature and animalistic aspects of himself and ceases to be human.

So I think this is the reason that WotC decided to make the werewolfs CE and have the alignment change if you voluntarily transform.
This also allows for some good RP, if a character knows that he is doing evil things and hates it so much that he will try to remove the lycanthropy or he will kill himself it can be quite dramatic (I had a character kill himself with a silver, bane (huminoid (shapechanger)) scythe) It becomes a question of does one preserve his/her life or sacrifice life to retain the self.

P.S. for other stories about animalistic/humane and nature/culture read stories about dionysus, and gilgamesh (their the ones that first come to mind)

marjan
2008-06-12, 11:55 PM
See, my group just avoids this whole nonsense of a disease changing your alignment. It's too much to try to process in any kind of comfortable way, and there's no elegant solutions (at least, none we've found).

A good person becomes a werewolf and turns evil? Have they lost free will? Or are they being pushed into evil behavior? And if they're being pushed, are they truly evil? Is it just their evil tendencies being laid bare, their goodness stripped away, and if so is it really fair to EVER inflict on a player character?


Not quite true.


Lycanthropy As An Affliction

When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn.

The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition.

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

Just to understand what your group does is pretty solid houserule, but you cannot say that RAW doesn't make sense.

EDIT: Misquoted.

Collin152
2008-06-12, 11:57 PM
The real answer is not to play a Paladin. Ever.
And embrace your evilness when you get bitten.
You know you want to.

SilverClawShift
2008-06-13, 12:00 AM
Not quite true.

How can the way we run things at our table, not be true at our table? :smallconfused:

marjan
2008-06-13, 12:09 AM
How can the way we run things at our table, not be true at our table? :smallconfused:

Bottom of my post.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-06-13, 12:19 AM
I've always found the manditory alignment change to be rather stupid.

SilverClawShift
2008-06-13, 12:27 AM
Bottom of my post.

That still has nothing to do with the truthiness of what we decide to go by, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

And yes, I did just use the word truthiness.

marjan
2008-06-13, 12:34 AM
That still has nothing to do with the truthiness of what we decide to go by, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

And yes, I did just use the word truthiness.

Sorry, I misquoted you. You were speaking about disease not making sense and I believed that it was just your reasoning for it. Edited the previous post.

Armads
2008-06-13, 02:42 AM
The real answer is not to play a Paladin. Ever.
And embrace your evilness when you get bitten.
You know you want to.

Would getting a "peaceful, herbivorous" werebear bite you re-shift your alignment?

Vorpal Soda
2008-06-13, 06:57 AM
So, if the SRD says that alignment is not to be used as a straightjacket, why is it possible to force new alignments onto people in at least three different ways?

So, if people can have new personalities forced on them, why is always through alignment? Why not have a cursed item that reverses someone's opinion on cheese? Or the colour blue?

If I'm reading this right, involuntary changes can force a permanent alignment change on a failed will save if the character knows that they are a lycanthrope. So if you can make sure that people are aware of their condition, but not the permanent alignment change or potential for cure, then you could theoretically cause all the evil in a place to dissappear as people gradually become good, and possibly find their wereforms useful in day to day life.

As for making a character who uses alignment restrictions in the fight against evil, I imagine wandering around biting people who show up on detect evil would probably be considered chaotic. However, it's possible to create your own lycanthrope with any animal not already used, and you could therefore probably get away with playing a CG lycanthrope. That would probably allow you to go around as a cleric who detects evil among influental people, then forces lycanthropy onto them.

Since lycanthropy is a disease, could you extract the disease from yourself, and then lace weapons with it? Or infect water supplies? Have the entire party go on a campaign to spread good-aligned lycanthropy among evil races and societies.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-06-13, 07:50 AM
I'd rule that with enough successful craft (alchemy) check I'd let them extract it from their saliva an use it as an injury poison. Remember that a lycanthrope spitting on your food doesn't infect you, it is their bite.

Citizen Joe
2008-06-14, 09:33 AM
I put some thought into the whole alignment of lycanthropes and I've come to the conclusion that they act completely OPPOSITE of the natural creature. This may be due to the animal side competing for control with the human side, which results in conflicting emotions erupting, i.e. chaotic evil for the pack hunting animals and lawful good for the normally loner animals.

ashmanonar
2008-06-14, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=Mewtarthio;4453455]It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

Whoooosh!