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View Full Version : Attacking an army? (spoilers)



Epinephrine
2008-06-12, 04:24 PM
I'm trying to come up with ways to attack a very large group (army) - we're adventuring in a module, but I don't want any spoilers about it. That said, I'll now put a spoiler alert, so I can say a few things about the situation.


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So, the module is the Red Hand of Doom. I've seen posts about it here, but haven't read them, as I don't want to know anything about it in detail, but I am trying to bounce ideas around about how to proceed. My party aren't the most communicative between sessions, and I end up taking the reins in planning any assaults/ambushes, etc.

We are a group of 4 players, with an NPC as well. We're playing a gestalt game, and we're level 5. Item-wise we're probably a little under-funded, we have between us 2 +1 weapons and 2 +1 armours.

On the plus side, we are a pretty decent group when it comes to working together - all the party members agreed to max their ranks in Hide and Move Silently, and we have the teamwork benefit Infiltration.

The party is
Mystic Ranger 5/Archivist 5 - ranged attacker/healer; DM has been limiting his access to scrolls, domain spell scrolls don't work for archivists either.

Elven Ranger 4 Rogue 1/Weretiger 5 - spear wielder, has combat reflexes, does some decent damage and is tough, thanks to DR.

Barbarian 5/Swordsage 5 - Melee guy, our real damage dealer (physically)

Druid 5/Scout 4 Barb 1 - Me - we use shapeshift variant druid, no casting in animal forms. Have a wolf form (predator) and a raven form (aerial). I'm illiterate (flaw), but craft totems, so I have scroll-like things, but can't pass the archivist my spells (isn't that mean? :smallbiggrin: I like the feral druid thing though, he's the least civilised of the group)

Warlock 5?/Pixie ? - NPC, he's a bit of an unknown, but handy to have around. Is helping us because of a debt.

Status
We've just taken out a keep full of badguys, including a nasty bugbear (Koth). I scouted the area the next day in my aerial form, to learn more about the enemy positions/numbers, using Cloud Wings to get some extra speed and Chameleon to get close. Our Archivist happens to know Infernal, and has enough Decipher Script that he got a lot of info for us from the scrolls in the keep, and I have located a small force on a bridge to the north (looked like a large green dragon, a pair of hell hounds, and some orcs - based on tent size and activity, 8-12 of them).

Also scouted a rather huge army, but didn't want to get too close, due to a large flying thing that I was pretty sure was a red dragon, and the lack of much cover. Huge force.

We're planning to assault the bridge tonight, and I think we can do it. Providing we manage to take out the dragon (scary) and drop the bridge, mopping up any enemies who try to run, we'll likely be able to harrass the army if they try to go through the woods.

Plans for the army, possibly.

So, the idea is to whittle them down - maybe that'll change, but for now it's our goal. We're stupid enough.

Once the army is on the march, into the woods, they'll likely be a fairly long comlumn, and not too wide. With maxed hide/move silently and Woodland Veil we have no problem sneaking around in the woods. It should be possible to get close enough to the marching group to do soemthing like the following -
We all hide near the game trail we expect they'll be taking. They will likely have scouts, but we have ridiculous hide checks, especially if we use mass camouflage/woodland veil. My only magic item, other than my totems, is a Rod of Extend Spells (1st-3rd level), but I can activate an extended Decomposition, and move up to them (sneakily) - the group waits for me to move up, then casts Spike Growth (archivist can do this) on the area being marched on. Fall back fast, sneaking, getting away before they can find us.

Since you can't see a spike growth until you step through it (search DC 27, he copied the spell into his book as a 2nd level ranger spell) it'll deal some damage, triggering the decomposition emanation that I have brought up next to them, hitting as much as 100' of the marching column. Those affected have wounds that fester, taking 3 damage a round for ~8 more rounds, plus initial damage. Even if they have healers around, they can't easily get to touch range on those in spike growth, nor heal enough people quickly. I'd imagine this will kill quite a few enemies. Repeating this when possible seems reasonable?

Spike Growths can be left on the trail an hour ahead of them easily.
Plant Growth is indefinite, and slows groups down - especially wagons/etc.
Soften Earth and Stone on wet areas makes nasty mud, and is instantaneous, lasting until they have to cross it.
Trip Vines also last hours, and can be used to limit movement around obstacles.
Nature's Rampart can create obstructions too.

Sabotaging the supply train is on my to do list, via Warp Wood on water barrels, wagon wheels carrying food, and so on.

Perhaps contagion might be used, infecting enemies - Our pixie friend can use magic devices, and I can prep a totem with Contagion (or use it mself)- with the charge held it's easy to deliver it, either from hiding in bushes or by an invisible fairy. Would a contact disease work to infect others?

If it can be managed, could we infect a captive (a scout, assuming we can grab one), allow him to die, and try to get the infected body parts into the water supply? (assuming they have some large water moving devices). How would you rule that use? Some of the diseases could work nicely.

The decomposition seems like a reliable way to inflict damage, since it only requires being near them when they take damage, and we have ways to inflict damage on large areas (spike growth) - then to get away. With our ability to move full speed while hiding, and our great survival skills (all party members have survival, and we break trail superbly, easily making full speed travel in woods) we should be able to hit-and- run them, causing a lot of damage?

Any other ideas on how to slow/harm an army using 3rd level druid spells, 2nd level ranger spells and hit-and-run archery/sniping?

I was debating trying to poison the water supply as well, or the food stuffs. My Knowledge:Nature and Survival are maxed, with the survival synergy and the druid bonus, so IIRC it's around a +15? (+3 wisdom, +2 druid, +2 synergy, 8 ranks), and I also have Craft:Poisonmaking, though only a couple of ranks - still, I may be able to find enough poisonous mushrooms,belladonna, hemlock, and other natural poisons to brew up and get it in there. The ranger/weretiger has a hat of disguise, and speaks orc too.

Any more ideas appreciated :)

Orran
2008-06-12, 05:09 PM
Well you're in luck, I've played this scenario and I can help[ you out, but it depends on how many spoilers you want from me, once I know that I'll tell you what I'd do.

General advice I can do though, obviously you're worrying about the army quite a lot, but they aren't the biggest threat, the green dragon and the hellhounds are. The army can be slowed down/ sniped/ harried and generally hit and run with minimal risk, but as a group of PC's you're expected to fight the large scary enemies. With that in mind let's look at the tactical situation.

You have the element of surprise on these guys and with your groups stealth skills you should be able to take out the guards at the near end of the bridge without alerting anyone, which is what my group did, but that's where it stopped going well for us, we managed to cut off the army from us with some area of effect spells etc (Evards tentacles, entangle, cloudkill etc.) you guys could do the same or similar with some low-level spells like darkness and solid fog, unfortunately you have no wizard but these are only tactics, I'm sure you have some kind of battlefield control.

Next the enemies themselves, but I'll leave that until I know how much you want to know.

Epinephrine
2008-06-12, 05:37 PM
I don't want to know anything specific.

I know that there is a Green Dragon, about 9-10 feet long. 4 Orcs man the towers at the ends of the bridge. There is a small camp back from the bridge, with IIRC 3 tents, 2 small, one large.

Our plan for the bridge is as follows:
Ranger/Archivist buffs us all with his scroll of energy resistance.
Ranger/Archivist uses Raptor's Sight and Hawkeye, which he has both as archivist and ranger spells.
Pixie, barbarian and melee ranger hide in bushes near us. We approach bridge in the woods, stopping 1000' or so back.

Buff with Blessed Aim. Myself and ranged ranger step out to attack, hoping to annoy the dragon (1050 or so feet off). Ranger can fire accurately from this range, as he's at -4 to hit now (-1 per range increments, double range increment lengths). He uses Hunter's Mercy, and unleashes 2 arrows at the dragon. I use Serpent's Quickness on him to get him a third shot. That's the surprise round. Initiative happens.

Hopefully we win, and he gets another Hunter's Mercy and triple shot off. This will probably annoy the crap out of the dragon. It's only 2 guys on a road though, and given the range, not all the arrows will have hit - hopefully enough to annoy him, not enough to worry him too much. Pretend to flee up road a bit, taking a potshot.

Gambling on the dragon not wanting to let himself be harrassed in this manner, he may come after us. After all, otherwise we'll just do it again. He travels much faster than his troops, and we're basically safe from bowshots. If he sends troops and stays behind, hiding, we laugh loudly at the coward dragon.

If he flies after us, I ready an action. When he gets to below 50 foot altitude and within 50 feet horizontally of our position, I slam him out of the sky with a Downdraft. If he fails his relflex save he falls 100', if he makes it he only falls 50' - that's the ground, prone, either way. Pixie uses my totem of blinding spittle on him. Barbarain and weretiger charge out of bushes, hitting him. My action now happens before dragon's.

I ready a second Downdraft, if he tries to fly and gets over 45' away. Hopefully a very wounded, blinded dragon is prone, and has to get up, triggering attacks of opportunity. If he then tries to fly, triggers additional attack of opportunity from the melee ranger's combat reflexes.

If he attacks, blind, he's in trouble. If he breathes, he can't get more than 1, maybe two, and they're protected from acid (ignore first 10 points). If he flies, I slam him into the ground again, and we repeat the charge/attack.

I also have Vine Mine on a totem for the pixie to use, and the ranger/archivist has Spike Growth*2. Pixie, myself, and the archivist all have Entangle. I have Zone of Glacial Cold *2. If they are foolish enough to charge us without the dragon, they end up trapped in a lot of thick plants that cut them up, while being frozen to death. If we're dispatching the dragon as they come, we'll likely still have time to get them with the snares, since the dragon moves much faster than they do. Vine Mine will swamp the road, cutting movement to 1/4, and an entangle over it drops it to 1/8. Spike growth makes it nigh impassable, if you take damage you are down to 1/16th speed. Getting stuck is VERY bad.

If it's looking bad, we can flee. I have totems with obscuring mist, cloudburst, earthbind, and a few other spells (they're like my backup scrolls).

I think that we've got a decent setup, provided we can get the dragon to attack, or to send troops out. The only issue I can see is if the dragon were to pace his troops, circling above them, advancing them slowly. Then we'd have to back off, since there's no way we can take them all - Vine Mine has a solid range though, a cloudburst will help fend off their ranged attacks while not obscuring LoS to cast at them, and we can still snare them - the invisible pixie can use Vine Mine, when we see the vines we can entangle at long range (also the range on a downdraft).

So I think we've got a decent plan? Of course, we've had good plans fall apart before.

Orran
2008-06-12, 05:57 PM
Well that is definitely a very good plan, but as you said good plans often fall to pieces at the hands of the DM. The problem is that you are relying on the dragon coming forward to attack you as you are aware, but this dragon has tricks up his sleeves and you need to be prepared, obviously I can't tell you what they are and even if I could your DM may run it differently to mine.

More importantly you have a time limit to killing this dragon, and it would be all to easy for the dragon to simply fly into the gorge and avoid your fire altogether, since he'll be reluctant to chase after you. You need to take the bridge before they can get word to their reinforcements so I would try to think of a a more direct plan. Maybe being in the forest could help as you seem to have a rather nature orientated team (but wouldn't the trees block LOS, I'm unfamiliar with raptor's sight and hawkeye).

A plan that I love to use on the dragons in this campaign is to slow them, since it stops them getting all their attacks and if you can fly somehow it stops them from attacking at all (only one standard/move action per turn, oops they need that to remain flying.) If you have access to that it would be great, but if not your entangling type spells will work fine.

I think you've got a tough enough party to handle a medium sized dragon a few orcs and a couple of hellhounds, so another plan would be to destroy the bridge before the fight and then fight everything.

Epinephrine
2008-06-12, 07:04 PM
More importantly you have a time limit to killing this dragon, and it would be all to easy for the dragon to simply fly into the gorge and avoid your fire altogether, since he'll be reluctant to chase after you.

Yep, but if he hides, he's a coward, and we can dispatch ground minions pretty well.


You need to take the bridge before they can get word to their reinforcements so I would try to think of a a more direct plan.

Seeing as the pixie and I can both fly, we can cross the gorge easily. We both move fast (I have woodland stride and my wolf form has a 70' move (50' base, +10' for barbarian, +10' for scout), he flies at 70') and can handle a couple of runners easily.

Our idea was that if the dragon went for help, we could likely take the bridge without too much difficulty.

If he sends runners, but hold bridge, we can take out the runners, and pick off the guys on the bridge, and simply head off any messages, and assault the camp when they rest; it's a different tactic, but I can use spells that way too on another day.

If he sends a sortie after us, we can possibly handle it - we've dispatched hell hounds and orcs before.

If he flies out after us, we ground him and blind him, making it difficult to do anything, and hopefully kill him off.

If they all come out, we snare the ground support, and hopefully take him out away from his troops.

Obviously, we may have missed something, and as we've said, things can go horribly wrong, but by using spells that either don't have saves (blinding spittle) or where the save is inconsequential (Downdraft on a dragon below 50') I'm hoping to ensure that we can take him.



Maybe being in the forest could help as you seem to have a rather nature orientated team (but wouldn't the trees block LOS, I'm unfamiliar with raptor's sight and hawkeye).

They wouldn't help, though he does have goggles of foe-finding, so he can ignore cover. We want the dragon to come out though.


A plan that I love to use on the dragons in this campaign is to slow them, since it stops them getting all their attacks and if you can fly somehow it stops them from attacking at all (only one standard/move action per turn, oops they need that to remain flying.) If you have access to that it would be great, but if not your entangling type spells will work fine.

Uck, we have no arcane caster, and no slows. Blindness is decent, it halves movement, which makes it tougher - they can't climb or turn while flying without making a double move, and they have trouble attacking/breathing on you, I'd expect.


I think you've got a tough enough party to handle a medium sized dragon a few orcs and a couple of hellhounds, so another plan would be to destroy the bridge before the fight and then fight everything.

You have more confidence than I do - I'm pretty confident of handling either the dragon or the ground troops, but both at once could be tricky. I may have to see if I can make room for a wind wall or something (or maybe the mystic ranger can manage it). Anything that can let us ignore the ground troops (hopefully stuck in battlefield control) and concentrate on the dragon is good.

Thanks though, hopefully it won't be too rough.

Orran
2008-06-12, 08:00 PM
Yep, but if he hides, he's a coward, and we can dispatch ground minions pretty well.

Well if a moral victory will suffice then I applaud you.




If he sends a sortie after us, we can possibly handle it - we've dispatched hell hounds and orcs before.

My team thought that too, I'd be careful of them if I were you, you can probably take them but don't underestimate them, but I won't say any more.

Well I think you've covered your bases pretty well, and I think you should be able to do it, I'm not sure there's any more help I can offer without feeling like cheating, good luck.

Chronos
2008-06-12, 08:57 PM
You seem to have some pretty good plans, there, but if I may suggest a few other possibilities? You've got a very skill-ful group, there... Does anyone have Forgery, Bluff, and/or Disguise? A few falsified orders could send parts of the army off in the wrong direction, or cause them to use their supplies inefficiently, or otherwise sow chaos in their ranks.
Examples: "Scouts on the western flank report organized resistance, just across that ridge ten miles away. The general wants you to take your battalion over there to root them out."
"Supply wagon 73 broke an axle and had to be abandoned. Your platoon is reassigned to supply wagon 24 for your meals."
"Word just came in that our reinforcements finally got approved, so we're supposed to wait here for three days to rendezvous with them before continuing on to the bridge."

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-12, 09:24 PM
Your plan is detailed and well thought-out. As a DM of this adventure, I think you will do fine.


Blindness is decent, it halves movement, which makes it tougher - they can't climb or turn while flying without making a double move, and they have trouble attacking/breathing on you, I'd expect.

Just as a note, all True Dragons have Blindsense which allows them to locate creatures within 60 feet. You would still have Total Concealment, however.