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View Full Version : Challenging a Premise



Totally Guy
2008-06-13, 08:23 AM
I've recently thought of a story for when I get to DM for the first time. And I'm going to spoiler the basic premise of the game so if any member of my group wander in they won't know the ending.

The basic story is that a ritual unlocks an great dungeon in the middle of a small city. The city starts off as quite idyllic and when the dungeon pops up they have to rebuild a bit and do some small scale humanitarian efforts to help the injured. The dungeon is full of monsters and treasure and the players will want to investigate. After some days the town will be different, every man and his dog will be using thier houses as inns for the swathes of adventurers that arrive.

After a couple of weeks the town will just be full of ne'er-do-well baddie type adventure folk all cutting each others throats and ammassing treasure.

The story is actually about the compulsion of evil aligned people to be attracted to the dungeon and furthermore cannot physically leave the small country. The players won't know it but they are in fact trapped and fighting their way out to locate the true evil guy that's behind the ruin of this country is the actual adventure. (By the way the villain is making a fortune from Leomund's secret chests, some of the adventure folk think they are transporting wealth to their families. With this and the shortage of bad tough folks he's terrorising good people and coercing bad ones to the dungeon.)

The problems with this campaign idea are thus
1) Why would the players leave the dungeon? Most adventuring parties stay until the dungeon is completed. Which won't happen.
2) How can I make the players realise the true challenge is being trapped in this place without the obstacles looking like me railroading them back to the dungeon.

I want the players to suddenly realise "hang on, it's not about the dungeon, it's about helping these people from the mass arrival of adventurers." and investigate that. Anyone done anything similar?

llamamushroom
2008-06-13, 08:36 AM
OK, for your players' sakes...
At least for your second question, I would definitely emphasise the impact of all of these adventurers on the town. Have them perhaps start off in a different town, and when they arrive, have considerably more beggars/homeless people on the streets. Also, have food almost ridiculously expensive, and make sure that the person they lodge with isn't loyal, and they will toss them out if somebody with deeper pockets comes in.

In answer to your first, just have others complain about being unabe to leave as well, but would you explain this concept in more detail? Is it that these adventurers are psychologically incapable of leaving, or is there something actively opposing their departure that the BBEG is the root cause of?

Totally Guy
2008-06-13, 08:51 AM
Some people will want to leave, the original inhabitants after a point and adventurers that become concerned that although they have money they are incapable of using it to buy lifestyle in the country they've ended up. There is psychological compulsion involved. Will the players be affected?
The Hand of Fortune ritual will always point to the dungeon after all and the BBEG exploits this.

To stop them leaving.. I've not planned this yet... The ports had all the boats sunk by a seamonster, the tunnels under the mountain collapsed in mysterious circumstances, the bridge across the ravine collapsed. The BBEG is using the geography as a huge prison.

Inyssius Tor
2008-06-13, 09:30 AM
Question: how did your players (and the other adventurers) get in? Were they there before things went bad, or did they have to get in later?

Perhaps an important NPC tried to escape recently, and the PCs have to go track him down (descending into the ravine, trying to navigate the twisted ruins of the great dwarven bridge, et cetera)--or go through his pockets looking for their MacGuffin, if he was killed by landslides, or a sudden fall, or a cave-in, or a flood, or wolves/dire bats/whatever...

I don't think your players should be affected by the compulsion effect. No matter how subtly you try to describe it, your PCs will go on high alert as soon as their players notice something is mucking with their emotions or perceptions. Think of it as the "he's rolling dice! Battle positions!" effect, the same way your PCs all suddenly get paranoid when you start narrating a "keeping watch at night" scene in any detail.

Regarding the compulsion: is it the villain's fault, or is there something bad in the dungeon that's calling these people (like in, say, the Abhorsen trilogy)?

Totally Guy
2008-06-13, 10:03 AM
Question: how did your players (and the other adventurers) get in? Were they there before things went bad, or did they have to get in later?

I don't think your players should be affected by the compulsion effect. No matter how subtly you try to describe it, your PCs will go on high alert as soon as their players notice something is mucking with their emotions or perceptions. Think of it as the "he's rolling dice! Battle positions!" effect, the same way your PCs all suddenly get paranoid when you start narrating a "keeping watch at night" scene in any detail.

I've not even started this yet. I wouldn't want to without knowing how to pull it off. The players will be there from the start though.

The mind compulsion the players are affected by is not decided by a dice roll, it's not even in-game, it's a meta-gaming bluff. If you are presented with a dungeon can you possibly walk away from it? Why is it there? It's there to be beaten by the players. That meta-game thinking could cause the downfall of my wonderfully crafted situation the players will end up in. In worst case the players attack the dungeon for a couple of weeks and then decide my campaign is boring and full of combat that goes nowhere.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-06-13, 01:44 PM
Question: What exactly is stopping the players from just camping out in the dungeon every night and only returning briefly to the town when they run low on supplies? If they have no real reason to go back up to the town, it'll take longer for them to notice anything weird going on there.

Citizen Joe
2008-06-13, 01:55 PM
OK here's another thought:

It is important that the party sees the town in its idyllic form before the dungeon is discovered. This gives them a base line of how the town should be. Make sure you have plenty of compassionate NPCs in this town so that the PC's can have some sort of emotional attachment.

As adventurers start showing up, slowly corrupt the town. So that the bed and breakfast starts serving alcohol, and later becomes a full blown tavern. Eventually the sweet little flower girl gets caught up in prostitution. Eventually the Sheriff gets hung.

Totally Guy
2008-06-13, 03:07 PM
Question: What exactly is stopping the players from just camping out in the dungeon every night and only returning briefly to the town when they run low on supplies? If they have no real reason to go back up to the town, it'll take longer for them to notice anything weird going on there.

That's problem number 1 from the first post. I've just been driving for a couple of hours so I was thinking to start off the first night's rest with a local adventurer type warn them thet he suspects bad people are entering the dungeon. The next night perhaps have a rogue attack. After that resting could prompt a big chance of a party of muggers showing up. That way they'll return to the town for rest.

The party will definitely see before and after for the town. The BBEG's plan comes into effect when the minor villian is beaten by the party, he's a chess master type villain.

TheSteelRat
2008-06-13, 04:55 PM
Some ideas regarding making the Dungeon non-"camp"-able.


Question: What exactly is stopping the players from just camping out in the dungeon every night and only returning briefly to the town when they run low on supplies? If they have no real reason to go back up to the town, it'll take longer for them to notice anything weird going on there.

Why not have it be part of the dungeon? It's a magic dungeon after all. Perhaps there's artificial limits to its access, and things can't be inside for too long, or access is only at certain times.
Options - 1. Everyone is automatically expelled at a certain time, causing damage of some variety to the adventurers, based upon the 'depth' into the dungeon they are. So, everyone tries to leave at a certain time, which can lead to problems with conflicting adventurer groups using it to hurt / kill others, or saving the 'safer' places for themselves.
2. Adventurers are automatically teleported back to a certain location after a certain duration within the dungeon, but without equipment, with all of their original stuff left on the floor of the dungeon, which is now shut off, and the 'things' inside nicely conceal everything they had. Heck, even provides a solution as to where the 'dungeon loot' comes from.
3. Disease / Illness that's related to the environment. Perhaps the outside air / sun / etc. cures this slowly, so characters have to make a question of who's going to last longer. Have it resistant to any / all magic / psionic / racial abilities that prevent disease/illness.
4. Require some special thing to enter. You've got to drink a vial of "poison" in order to walk through the magical entrance, and that poison is going to have a nasty effect if you're still in there in X-Time period, but if you're outside, it's perfectly inert. Also something else for people to fight over.

In general, limiting access to the dungeon itself, in addition to closing off the local area, would be the way to go to prevent your characters from dungeon-camping, as well as introduce a new element / weapon / tool.

Heck, make a rule that whenever you got to sleep you get thrown out. That'd piss off your casters though ;) Or, after so many times you sleep you're expelled. Make sure there aren't any spells/powers/races that don't require it though. Perhaps those can't enter for some reason?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-13, 06:11 PM
What is with the abuse of spoiler tags? They serve absolutely no purpose here. If your players are reading this thread, they're just going to click to open them. Please stop?

Albonor
2008-06-14, 11:30 AM
Music. Have a very disturbing tune being heard in the dungeon. That way, it is impossible to sleep there, as well as imposing a -10 penalty to listen checks. The tune can be dimly heard outside of the dungeon but not loud enough to prevent rest. On the other hand, the song is magical and is the source of the evil spreading around. I suggest you find a long track that you can but on repeat durnig the gaming sessions. You can be sure that they will eventually understand its effects!

JaxGaret
2008-06-14, 11:35 AM
Music. Have a very disturbing tune being heard in the dungeon. That way, it is impossible to sleep there, as well as imposing a -10 penalty to listen checks. The tune can be dimly heard outside of the dungeon but not loud enough to prevent rest. On the other hand, the song is magical and is the source of the evil spreading around. I suggest you find a long track that you can but on repeat durnig the gaming sessions. You can be sure that they will eventually understand its effects!

I suggest Celine Dion remixed by 50 Cent.

bosssmiley
2008-06-14, 11:36 AM
You can't camp a dungeon that burps up new monsters and hostile environmental or magical effects at random intervals until harnessed and put to work by a thematically appropriate BBEG (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=36201). :smallwink:

Dynamic quasi-Mordheim setting? Like it.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-06-14, 12:06 PM
I don't think you need to have a "before-and-after" snapshot of the city. First off, it's just silly. I don't need to explain that unspoiled milk-maids turning into prostitutes over the course of a couple days is silly and jarring (hyperbole).

No it's just better to show that this city is just a bad place. Just mess with player expectations and clearly demonstrate that most of the city's problems comes from the adventurers that show up.

It's a beautiful setup to describe the sudden feeling of awkwardness that the adventurers might feel about getting fame-and-fortune on this exciting new enterprise, only to find that other adventurers have already gotten the idea into their heads and that it'll do anything *but* enhance their fame-and-fortune. Still, they came a long way, so they're gonna grab what they can.

You don't need magical compulsions. You've got plenty of motivation and a dungeon. If your players don't want to explore the dungeon why are they playing Dungeons and Dragons?

Also, players can leave the dungeon if the social situation upstairs is a part of the puzzle. You see, I see the dungeon as a puzzle which can only be solved with the aide of the city. The city has specialists and your usual assortment of mover-and-shakers. And other adventurers. Other people have started an economy based on the dungeon.

For example:
- An adventuring party has acquired a piece of "loot" that turns out to be the McGuffin or a key clue to the puzzle. They're a rather unsavory lot, so acquiring it may make for a social challenge.
- Adventurers have a definite effect upon dungeon ecology and the localized portions of the environment.
- The town might have higher-level casters with much-needed rituals. Comprehend Language. Raise Dead. Low-level players may have to go on some quest in payment for their services. Or they may need a sage to help them puzzle out something in the dungeon.

It's an interesting concept. I'm really intrigued as to why and how the dungeon has come to be where it is. What is the dungeon? The other adventurers and bottom-feeders of the city mostly don't care. Most only care to see a tourist-attraction. The city authorities just see a logistical nightmare.

But maybe the BBEG *does know.* His eyes might be fixed upon some other prize.

mabriss lethe
2008-06-14, 07:51 PM
Another option for the pcs. (one that I've been wanting to put into action for a while)

The PCs aren't adventurers. They're more like glorified civil servants. They've been recruited by a cabal that tries to maintian the status quo in a realm where wizards toss off spells that can remake reality, armies of the dead and demonic hordes lay waste to whatever they see and just about any adventurer amasses and spends enough money to destabilize the economies of entire city-states. They're a cleanup crew trying to put right the messes that the "real" adventurers make of pretty much everything they touch. Usually these "cleaners" work solo or in pairs, but with the erruption of the dungeon and the growth of an "adventuring industry" there, they've been gathered together as a task force. The problem it represents, mostly by such a fell gathering of morally ambiguous folks bent on plundering the dungeon is too big for any one or two operatives to handle.

It starts out as a fact finding mission, They're just there to check things out, gather some intel and then return with a recommendation... but the lure of the place is just too much.

(the whole place is a trap factory. It spawns corrupted "treasure." all of it, down to the brass candlesticks, is cursed in minor ways just from long term proximity to the dungeon itself. Adventurers who pick it up slowly find their moral compass being eroded, their greed opens a way into them that the corruption begins to exploit. As the adventurers start spending their loot in town, the whole place begins a slow descent into corruption. Part of the corruption manifests as a compulsion to stay near the dungeon. It's all part of the plan by some BBEG to contain and possibly convert all of his potential adversaries as he begins his real bid for power. )

I'd suggest that the BBEG has a group or three of willing agents of his own operating inside the growing city to keep him in the loop and to act as damage control should things get out of hand and the project needs to be shut down. If the PCs have a run-in with the bbeg's agents early on, they might find some correspondence or otherwise stumble upon the basic gist of the plot. It should be after they've amassed some artifacts/ coinage corrupted by the the dungeon... that way they know they've been influenced, but it's too late to do anything about it. they have to stick it out and figure out a way to free themselves from the compulsions. At most, They might manage to return home long enough get a message out to their organization calling for a quarantine of the area before they're overwhelmed by the compulsion to return to the dungeon.