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Frosty
2008-06-13, 02:34 PM
Which line of spells would you say is more powerful? Animals on the whole seem to have better physical stats, but they're not as smart as the monsters you can summon. And some of those elementals seem pretty good later on in the summon monster series. If you are a caster that gets to choose which line you get at each spell level, which would you choose at every level and why?

Saph
2008-06-13, 04:32 PM
The Summon Nature's Ally line is generally better - the benefits you get from Summon Monster don't measure up to the extra HP and hitting power of the animals on the SNA list. Usually when you summon something it's because you need a meatshield - a low SR score and a few energy resistances are rarely useful.

Also, if you're playing a druid you get to cast Summon Nature's Ally spontaneously, which is a much better deal than filling up your spell slots with summons.

- Saph

Jack_Simth
2008-06-13, 04:49 PM
Which line of spells would you say is more powerful? Animals on the whole seem to have better physical stats, but they're not as smart as the monsters you can summon. And some of those elementals seem pretty good later on in the summon monster series. If you are a caster that gets to choose which line you get at each spell level, which would you choose at every level and why?
3.X, right?

It varies, depending on what you're wanting to do with it, and what you're facing.

Out of combat, Summon Monster is usually better, up until you hit the point where Summon Nature's Ally gets you intelligent critters. To get the animals from the SNA line to do anything beyond the default behavior of summons (attack nearest obvious opponent), you need an extra spell effect (Speak with Animals). This issue goes away once you start getting to the point where you're picking up Fey, Magical Beasts, and Elementals (which are intelligent enough to know a language - you just need to know the right one, or have Tongues Permamencied). The majority of the SM line, however, understand common (Celestial and Fiendish critters have a minimum Int of 3 - which means they understand at least one language, common unless otherwise specified per the rules, and as neither the celestial or the fiendish template specifies a language....). For most out of combat applications, Summon Monster is generally going to be better due to the extra cost of making the animals from Summon Nature's Ally do what you want.

In combat against single big opponents, the SR, DR, and energy resistance on the Celestial and Fiendish templates are mostly meaningless at the level you get them (it'll generally be your level +5, tops). This makes Summon Nature's Ally better, for the most part.

In combat against lots of lower-level opponents (mooks), the SR, DR, and energy resistance on the Celestial and Fiendish templates are good enough to be meaningful - so against mooks, you want the Summon Monster line (until SNA hits the point where it's getting elementals, which have DR and energy immunities).

What do you want to do with it? What kinds of opponents do you generally face?

bosssmiley
2008-06-13, 04:50 PM
The Summon Nature's Ally line is generally better - the benefits you get from Summon Monster don't measure up to the extra HP and hitting power of the animals on the SNA list. Usually when you summon something it's because you need a meatshield - a low SR score and a few energy resistances are rarely useful.

Also, if you're playing a druid you get to cast Summon Nature's Ally spontaneously, which is a much better deal than filling up your spell slots with summons.

- Saph

IIRC from the Druid's Handbook on the WOTC forums (I can't quite bring myself to refer to them by the frightfully twee name of Gleemax) the SNA monsters work out about 1/2CR higher than equivalent Summon Monster creatures.

And you can cheese SNA creatures up with the pure stilton beard of the Greenbound template. :smallwink:

Bag_of_Holding
2008-06-13, 07:33 PM
SNA gets better storm elementals at lower levels, so it has that distinct advantage against Summon Monster. But when you go with Archivist you can get the best of two worlds! :smallbiggrin:

SadisticFishing
2008-06-13, 09:41 PM
Summoning a Maelephant (Fiend Folio), Coatl, or Leonal Guardinal can set you up for some very interesting things. The Maelephant has True Seeing at will, and True Seeing on the whole party for one spell is not bad at all. The Coatl has Freedom of Movement and four 4th level spells, also not bad at all. The Guardinal can heal... a lot. And cast Force Wall at will.

So if you have a lot of spells (a master conjurer with specialized mastery or whatever it's called) can get a lot out of Summon Monster, as can a Binder that binds Zceryll over and over. :D

Animefunkmaster
2008-06-14, 02:25 AM
And you can cheese SNA creatures up with the pure stilton beard of the Greenbound template. :smallwink:

Spirit cookie

With all the power of Summon Natures Ally, Greenbound summoning just puts it over the top... sure no buffs that only target animals anymore, but one hell of a template, and some useful spell like abilities.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-14, 02:29 AM
I'd use a houserule that states that all animals have Int and Cha stats of 10 unless there's a reason for them to be higher or lower (eg: domestic animals would probably have -2 Int modifiers), so that wouldn't really affect my summons. Ignoring specisist rules, I agree that SNA spells are better (I'd class combat skill as more important then intelligence). What exactly does the Greenbound Template do apart from make the creature plantlike?

Jack_Simth
2008-06-14, 08:58 AM
Summoning a Maelephant (Fiend Folio), Coatl, or Leonal Guardinal can set you up for some very interesting things. The Maelephant has True Seeing at will, and True Seeing on the whole party for one spell is not bad at all. The Coatl has Freedom of Movement and four 4th level spells, also not bad at all. The Guardinal can heal... a lot. And cast Force Wall at will.

So if you have a lot of spells (a master conjurer with specialized mastery or whatever it's called) can get a lot out of Summon Monster, as can a Binder that binds Zceryll over and over. :D
Do note: non-instantaneous effects of Summons vanish when the Summon does. When that Summoned Coatl casts Freedom of Movement on you, it lasts rounds. The healing's good, though - but the Unicorn from Summon Nature's Ally IV gets it sooner.

Vortling
2008-06-14, 09:28 AM
What exactly does the Greenbound Template do apart from make the creature plantlike?

Improves natural armor, gives it some spell like abilities, grants DR, Fast healing, a grapple bonus, resistances like plants, tremorsense, some very nice stat boosts (str +6 is the most useful one), and some hide and move silently bonuses.

The internet is your friend :smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-14, 09:47 AM
Where can the template be found? I checked Crystal Keep's Template section, but I still couldn't find it.

SoD
2008-06-14, 02:24 PM
I'd use a houserule that states that all animals have Int and Cha stats of 10 unless there's a reason for them to be higher or lower (eg: domestic animals would probably have -2 Int modifiers), so that wouldn't really affect my summons.

What??? That's enough for the average commoner killing-housecat to speak common!

Commoner: ''AHH! What are you?!''
Housecat: ''Your worst nightmare...''

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-14, 02:28 PM
Actually, anatomical differences would stop animals frombeing able to use languages. (Admittedly, shouldn't all animals be able to alk Sylvan or a similar language?)

monty
2008-06-14, 02:34 PM
Actually, anatomical differences would stop animals frombeing able to use languages. (Admittedly, shouldn't all animals be able to alk Sylvan or a similar language?)


Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2.

And magical beasts can speak languages, so if you gave animals Intelligence higher than 2, it would follow that they can speak languages. If a unicorn can speak Common, why can't an Int 10 horse?

Kizara
2008-06-14, 02:39 PM
I'd use a houserule that states that all animals have Int and Cha stats of 10 unless there's a reason for them to be higher or lower (eg: domestic animals would probably have -2 Int modifiers), so that wouldn't really affect my summons. Ignoring specisist rules, I agree that SNA spells are better (I'd class combat skill as more important then intelligence). What exactly does the Greenbound Template do apart from make the creature plantlike?

That works fine if you are playing a campaign world with the Chronicles of Narnia as precedent, but most of us don't think our housecats are sentient.

Not to mention smarter then many humanoid species, like orcs. Yes, orcs are stupid, but they are signifigantly more intelligent then horses that are not self-aware.

Signmaker
2008-06-14, 02:58 PM
I'm going to have to say Summon Nature's Ally, because of what has been stated and:

DMG has a variant that lets you summon specific animals with SNA. As in, "Lucky" the Giant Constrictor Snake, and such. In which then you can get in to the fun of raising HD-advanced animals, all for the sake of sending them to battle for your cause.

Pokedruid ftw.

monty
2008-06-14, 03:02 PM
I'm going to have to say Summon Nature's Ally, because of what has been stated and:

DMG has a variant that lets you summon specific animals with SNA. As in, "Lucky" the Giant Constrictor Snake, and such. In which then you can get in to the fun of raising HD-advanced animals, all for the sake of sending them to battle for your cause.

Pokedruid ftw.

I never really thought about it that way before. Now I want to do that.

Signmaker
2008-06-14, 03:13 PM
I never really thought about it that way before. Now I want to do that.

This, of course, assumes that your DM will let you raise animals in to the Advanced state.

Does make the idea of a Druid's grove nifty though. Maybe THAT'S where Pokemon go when they're in their pokeballs. In a nice lil pasture, away from human tampering.

Fun things aside, you can advance animals to ridiculous heights without your DM tethering you. For a lil over 1500 gp, grab the Collar of Obedience and Animal Training Kit. Collar reduces the Handle Animal DC for the purposes of rearing/training by 5, and the kit adds +2 to your check towards the same general areas. For the purposes of rearing (What you'll likely be doing), that's a net of +7 to your check. With ranks in Handle Animal, a healthy amount of Charisma, and maybe a Circlet of Persuasion, you can easily raise animals with HD two or three times your own.

This assumes that my reading of the skill is right, of course. I'm waiting to be proven wrong, because this is too easy to be true.

Ilena
2008-06-15, 02:40 AM
That works fine if you are playing a campaign world with the Chronicles of Narnia as precedent, but most of us don't think our housecats are sentient.

Not to mention smarter then many humanoid species, like orcs. Yes, orcs are stupid, but they are signifigantly more intelligent then horses that are not self-aware.

Question, do you know the definition of both those words? sentient and self-aware?

self-a·ware (sělf'ə-wâr')
adj. Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors.

sentient

–adjective
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

How can you say that animals are not these things? They feel, they have emotions, ive personally witnessed 2 accounts, first one many years ago, my horses herdmate was put down because he was ill, i did not know about this before hand, went i went to the field that day i knew right away something has happened because one look at him and you know he was depressed, they get over that kind of thing alot quicker then people do but they still feel it, the second time, 2 months ago, another horse died at the barn of a twisted stomach, all his herd mates that he was close with you could tell they were saddened by it, so dont tell me that animals are not aware of ones self, do not have the power of preception, because they are not at all different then humans.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-15, 02:44 AM
I agree with Crixon (I have some animal communication experience as well, and I've not seen any evidence that animals aren't self-aware). That is a good point about Unicorns. I just assumed that they could talk Common due to being magical creatures (unless they have different vocal chords to normal equines for some reason).

Talic
2008-06-15, 03:41 AM
SNA in combat, Summon monster out.

The main reason to summon monsters is to get the advantage of their Spells/day.

The main reason to summon animals is to eat something.

Take your pick on which way you want to take it.

Worira
2008-06-15, 08:54 AM
Most animals simply don't have the capability of higher-level reasoning. Yes, a horse can tell if a companion is sick, because they have, in D&D terms, a wisdom of 12. The stat that
describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-15, 09:03 AM
Do you have any proof of that, and why would D&D's 3.5 rules necessarily be applicable to real life? The ageing penalties and the idea that everyone would want to play a Blaster Wizard both suggest that WotC aren't that credible.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-15, 09:20 AM
That works fine if you are playing a campaign world with the Chronicles of Narnia as precedent, but most of us don't think our housecats are sentient.

I think you mean sapient. Many animals are sentient (aware of themselves, even to the extent of being able to use mirrors), but they are not sapient or actually intelligent. That's why they have Int 1 or 2 in D&D. Animals have no real languages, which precludes even the development of intelligence. Language comes before intelligence, because it's necessary for recursive thinking (thinking about yourself, then thinking about yourself thinking about yourself).

This is a semantical discussion, though - by some definitions of sentience (like the ability for the complicated thinking necessary for ethics), animals aren't sentient ('course, by some of those definitions, human children aren't sentient either) - and semantical discussions are pretty much useless derailments of the real subject of any thread.

Tengu
2008-06-15, 09:26 AM
Question, do you know the definition of both those words? sentient and self-aware?

self-a·ware (sělf'ə-wâr')
adj. Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors.

sentient

–adjective
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.


A wrong term was used. The proper one is "sapient", which, basically, means "intelligent enough to be able to form some sort of culture or civilisation". No animals that we know of, apart from some apes, are sapient.

And of course, Tsotha-lanti beat me to it. But I wonder, why would all animals have 10 int and wis? Because they have average mental capabilities for their species? If so, then by this logic most pixies and giants have 10 strength, because they have average physical capabilities for their races.

Chronos
2008-06-15, 09:36 AM
The last time the issue of animal intelligence came up, one of the arguments raised in favor of animals being just as smart as humans was "My cat can open doorknobs". Think about that, for a moment: Have you ever heard of any human so profoundly retarded as to be unable to use a doorknob? And yet, that capability is the absolute pinnacle of intelligence for a housecat.

Tengu
2008-06-15, 09:39 AM
Reminds me that at one lecture, a female student said it's perfectly possible that animals might have hidden civilisations we just do not know about. And she was serious. Bear in mind, we're talking university here.

Ockham's Razor exists for a reason - to cut theories that have absolutely no proof to them.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-15, 09:54 AM
In regards to civilisations, anatomical differences would stop them from developing that sort of culture (as well as the need to survive). In regards to evidence, I take it that yo don't believe that psychic animal communication works? (Also, I remember people mentioning things other then opening doors). Before I wothdraw from this discussion, you do realise that these arguements could be used to claim that people from "primitive" cultures are less intelligent then people from western civilisation, right? Regarding the stat point I made, that's to avoid statting out every animal who won't play an important part in the game.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-06-15, 10:18 AM
In regards to civilisations, anatomical differences would stop them from developing that sort of culture (as well as the need to survive). In regards to evidence, I take it that yo don't believe that psychic animal communication works? (Also, I remember people mentioning things other then opening doors). Before I wothdraw from this discussion, you do realise that these arguements could be used to claim that people from "primitive" cultures are less intelligent then people from western civilisation, right? Regarding the stat point I made, that's to avoid statting out every animal who won't play an important part in the game.

"Psychic" ? Yeah, no. It doesn't exist. Or, to put that in more scientific terms, there's no evidence to compel any critical person to believe it exists. (Conveniently enough, proponents of psychical phenomena tend to claim they're not measurable or observable, or are somehow interfered with by such things or by critical thinking. All that means is that the phenomena in question are ineffable and metaphysical, and therefore irrelevant. If the communication is only going on inside your head... er, I'll stop before this gets insulting.)

The anatomical differences are, in fact, the whole point. Animals are unable to speak and develop languages. The quirk of anatomy that gave humans the ability to speak is the basis of our intelligence. Once you have language, you can get abstract and recursive - which is what sapience and intelligence is all about. Animals do not have the facility to think abstractly, and think about the ways in which they think (apperception).

Depending on your definion, yes, primitive cultures are "less intelligent." (If you use, say, IQ tests - worthless though they are - you get differences of as much as 10 points in average IQ even between social classes in the same country, even with supposedly culturally-neutral tests.) Intelligence is developed by language and society; passing on information, expanding on it, and recording it so it's more accessible. The average university student now is almost certainly more intelligent than the average university student in 1900, largely because of the increasing amount of "extelligence" - stored information - and easier access to it.

Hyudra
2008-06-15, 11:48 AM
Generally speaking, I'd argue that the Summon Monster spells, by virtue of applying celestial & fiendish templates, (and thus raising the intelligence of the critters to 3) give the creatures the ability to understand basic language. (MM).

By contrast, many of the SNA spells don't give you creatures with such an advantage. You need to pump your Handle Animal skill to be able to be able to direct them in or out of combat (beyond just having them charge in and fight), and you're generally limited to the basic tricks that Handle Animal permits.

Thus, Summon Monster gives you far more tactical versatility ("Help him!" "Grab that wizard!") for using the various talents of your summons, as opposed to just employing SNA for raw brawn. If you employ these given restrictions, they're pretty balanced.