Belkars new friendship w/ Mr. Scruffy = road to redemption?

[Trizap]

I've been thinking: Belkar seems to actually like Mr. Scruffy, and has been shown to feed and play with him, showing a side of him we haven't seen before,
is it possible that Belkar might develop a good heart? possible that Mr.Scruffy might make Belkar a better person?

Is it possible that Belkars friendship with a cat that was previously owned by a chaotic good ruler, might lead him to redemption?

[An Enemy Spy]

If Belkar was redeemed, then his entire charm would be lost. I find the whole thing with Mr. Scruffy to hilarious because Belkar thinks the Scruffinator is just like him when in fact he is simply a cat

[Red XIV]

Cats are one of the few animals that hunt even when they don't actually need food, and they frequently torment their prey before finishing it off. They're short, aggressive killing machines. So of course Belkar likes Mr Scruffy. And as an added bonus, paladins were forced to clean the Scruffinator's litter box.

[TigerHunter]

Cats are one of the few animals that hunt even when they don't actually need food,
Maybe, but they succeed in hunting so rarely that they have to hunt at every opportunity in order to survive. It's not because they're cruel.

[Eakin]

I've been thinking: Belkar seems to actually like Mr. Scruffy, and has been shown to feed and play with him, showing a side of him we haven't seen before,
is it possible that Belkar might develop a good heart? possible that Mr.Scruffy might make Belkar a better person?

Is it possible that Belkars friendship with a cat that was previously owned by a chaotic good ruler, might lead him to redemption?
He has shown this side before around people he likes, especially Elan. That certainly hasn't done anything to redeem him.

[Liwen]

Belkar's probably one of the most symphatic almost choactic neutral choatic evil types. He as been with the party for 565 strips and even he often acts as a mindless killing machine, I consider him one of the good guys. He never and a kick or rape the dog moment, except maybe the afterprom party, but they don't consider childhood escapades, so he's technically clean.

The gnome was a pointless NPC anyway.

So he has little to redeem the way I see it. It's a D&D universe. It's made to reflect reality up to the point where the adventurers start killing everything they perseive as a pontential threat.

I should probably post this in an entirely new thread, but if the people we're acting in real life has they do in D&D, I would bunker myself down 20 000 meters in the ground and play some video games until the world's end, which shouldn't take long.

Also, My Scruffy is awesome.

[factotum]

Maybe, but they succeed in hunting so rarely that they have to hunt at every opportunity in order to survive. It's not because they're cruel.

So why play with their prey? By your logic they should be straight in for the jugular to ensure they get the kill, but cats (housecats, anyway, other types may vary) simply don't do that.

I can't see Belkar simply being friendly with a cat changing his fundamental nature, in any case, even if cats were the most saintly beings on Earth--it's just a pet (or an Animal Companion at most) for him.

[Shale]

It seems far more likely that Belkar will corrupt Mr. Scruffy.

[DreadSpoon]

I don't know that he's being redeemed. We do have scientific proof however that cats can cause odd behavior in humans, so it's possible that it might cause some alteration in behavior for halflings, too.

http://xkcd.com/231/

(anything with a chart is hard, scientific proof)

[EvilJames]

Cat's do hunt when they don't have need, at least feral cats do. They often kill baby rabbits in my parents backyard. They play with them for a while and then leave them there. They are not by nature cruel but it appears so do to their natural curiosity. Young cats toy with prey because it helps them learn to hunt better, but I'm not sure why adults do. Perhaps it's similar to how the killer whales treat seals. Regardless this is likely something that appeal to Belkar.

I don't think he'll be redeemed by it though. He'll just become a villain with a cat.

[TigerHunter]

Cat's do hunt when they don't have need, at least feral cats do. They often kill baby rabbits in my parents backyard. They play with them for a while and then leave them there.

So why play with their prey? By your logic they should be straight in for the jugular to ensure they get the kill, but cats (housecats, anyway, other types may vary) simply don't do that.
Young wild cats will play with their prey because they're still figuring out what works. Housecats do it because their instincts tell them to hunt, but they have no idea why they're hunting--they've never had a parent go hunting with them to teach them what happens after the kill, or needed to do anything more than wait for their owner to toss them a kitty treat in order to feed.

[Tingel]

I've been thinking: Belkar seems to actually like Mr. Scruffy, and has been shown to feed and play with him, showing a side of him we haven't seen before,
is it possible that Belkar might develop a good heart? possible that Mr.Scruffy might make Belkar a better person?
Being fond of a pet does not necessarily point towards having/developing a good heart. Evil people can also have friends, and even more so they can also have pets.

By being fond of a pet you do not even actually have to care for the pet's well-being per se. Pets can be a stylish accessory for example, or simply a means of entertainment. Pets can provide disport - and valuing this disport (and thus the pet), even evil people may keep the pet around, yet motivated only by self-interest.


Belkar's attachment to Mister Scruffy does seem to be based mainly on two things: 1) the cat entertains him, and 2) he identifies with the cat. Neither is inherently good, from a moral viewpoint.

[Arkenputtyknife]

So why play with their prey? By your logic they should be straight in for the jugular to ensure they get the kill, but cats (housecats, anyway, other types may vary) simply don't do that.
Feral cats — ordinary housecats that have been born and raised in the wild — are taught by the mother cat to kill their prey quickly. Hunting, on the other hand, is a hard-wired instinct. The average domestic cat is born with the hunting part but is never taught the killing part, so it doesn't know what to do with its prey when it catches it. It plays with it because no one has taught it any better.

I've had 2 cats in the last decade. The first was semi-feral. She regularly caught small animals which she would bring home, kill, and eat, in a matter of minutes. The second has been domestic all her life. She once caught a bird but didn't have the faintest idea what to do with it; after a while it escaped and flew off.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Also, My Scruffy is awesome.

Your Scruffy? I thought Belkar was the only with a Scruffy...

[Green Bean]

Really? Since Belkar got that cat, he nearly defected over to the other team, and killed a merchant unprovoked. If anything, you could claim Mr. Scruffy's corrupting Belkar. :smalltongue:

[TigerHunter]

Really? Since Belkar got that cat, he nearly defected over to the other team, and killed a merchant unprovoked. If anything, you could claim Mr. Scruffy's corrupting Belkar. :smalltongue:
What? The merchant totally provoked him! The merchant had candy and Belkar didn't!

[Jayngfet]

Y'know, we probably wouldn't be having this descussion if Mr.Scruffy was a black cat, or if he was a snake, or if he wasn't fuzzy.

[SPoD]

Belkar is unlikely to be redeemed by ANYTHING, much less Mr. Scruffy.

Also, James Bond villain Ernst Blofeld had a white cat, as do derivatives Dr. Evil and Dr. Claw. It hasn't kept any of them from being evil.

[puzpuz]

If Belkar will develop a good heart, the humor in OOTS will be reduced, alot. But there might be a try to make fun of all the drama movies with the lame cliche about the evil guy who becomes good and nice...

[Kato]

Nah, he won't be get redemption or anything... he simply likes Scruffy for some reason... Probably he's some kind of relic of Shojo, to him, probably the only human he ever liked. (I don't know why, but he did... maybe because he made fun of his palas?)
So... Scruffy's merely a pet to him, nothing else. If anything, he will try to corrupt him. Not the other way round.

Also I just realized something, about the gnome event. I also long thought it was a rape the dog moment for killing some harmless merchant who didn't provoked him or anything. BUT (he had candy and B didn't) No, really. remember, B was trappid in Azurite City for months. So he couldn't KILL anything 8living). It is like don#t having sex for months or something to him, I think, not even masturbating. And all of you, who are old enough, probably understand his suffering. (Yeah, he killed the hobgoblin a panel before but one kill is no kill, isn't it?)

[puzpuz]

Also I just realized something, about the gnome event. I also long thought it was a rape the dog moment for killing some harmless merchant who didn't provoked him or anything. BUT (he had candy and B didn't) No, really. remember, B was trappid in Azurite City for months. So he couldn't KILL anything 8living). It is like don#t having sex for months or something to him, I think, not even masturbating. And all of you, who are old enough, probably understand his suffering. (Yeah, he killed the hobgoblin a panel before but one kill is no kill, isn't it?)

I see what you mean, but I don't see how it is related to the thread's issue... :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Kato]

Hehe, I know ^^' It's just for off related to Bs latest behavior and I wanted to put it somewhere before I forget it :P

[puzpuz]

I just got a crazy idea...

(SPOILER)

Remember that Miko tried to reveal Belkar's tendency, and Belkar didn't let her? Well, Belkar won't hide the fact that he is evil, even in these circumstances, it's just not Belkar... What if he is trying to hide the fact that he is good?

:smallconfused: :smallamused:

[Kato]

Hehe.... nice idea... but in one of the first strips he's immune to unholy blight ^^' and he has 2 devils instead of an angel... oh, and he loves killing too much, to be good ^^* and he kissed V, without asking for permission :D

[Malachite]

What if he is trying to hide the fact that he is good?


Quite apart from all the obviously evil acts he has performed and continues to perform, it's stated quite clearly in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) that he's Chaotic Evil. Case closed.

[puzpuz]

and he kissed V, without asking for permission :D

:smalleek: How do I not remember that?

[SoD]

Maybe, but they succeed in hunting so rarely that they have to hunt at every opportunity in order to survive. It's not because they're cruel.

Excuse me? Not cruel? ''Oh, I brought you a dead bird. Hope you like it.'' ''Hmm, a defenseless little native animal...I'll kill it, but first...I'll make it fun, and torment it!''


Belkar's probably one of the most symphatic almost choactic neutral choatic evil types. *snip*

The gnome was a pointless NPC anyway.

Hmm. Very sympathetic. NPC's are people too, ya know.


What? The merchant totally provoked him! The merchant had candy and Belkar didn't!

Which Belkar didn't find out until after he killed him.

[hamishspence]

one theory is, it is often training, the cat is teaching itself to be better at hunting. same might apply to the killer whale. other theory for the whale is that it stript to tough skin off the seal pups by bashing them around.

The teaching theory makes most sense when live prey is brought by mother to kittens. Hawks, and lions, do similar for their young.

as for cruelty, can a cat truly take pleasure in it? Is it intelligent enough to be described as cruel? hard to say.

[SoD]

as for cruelty, can a cat truly take pleasure in it? Is it intelligent enough to be described as cruel? hard to say.

On that, if you say it's not smart enough to take pleasure in something, then it's not smart enough to dislike something. Cats like being awarded, and dislike being ignored.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Excuse me? Not cruel? ''Oh, I brought you a dead bird. Hope you like it.'' ''Hmm, a defenseless little native animal...I'll kill it, but first...I'll make it fun, and torment it!''
Not cruel. The cat isn't acting that way with the intent of inflicting suffering; it's not smart enough for that. A cat's brain is about the size of a walnut — big enough for it to know when it's being rewarded or punished, not big enough to have empathy for the natural prey that it's designed from tip to tail to catch and kill. It does what it does because that's what its nervous system is wired to do. No more.

If you did it, you would be cruel, because you have 3 pounds of brain inside your skull and should know better. But a cat? Please.

[Logalmier]

Belkar can't become good, he has no good side to become good with left.
The evidence? It's right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html).

[Hesquidor]

Excuse me? Not cruel? ''Oh, I brought you a dead bird. Hope you like it.'' ''Hmm, a defenseless little native animal...I'll kill it, but first...I'll make it fun, and torment it!''


And it has been theorized that when the cat brings that dead bird home to you it is actually doing so because it thinks your the crap hunter and could do with some fresh meat. So with that in mind it's actually quite a nice thing for it to do.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I've been thinking: Belkar seems to actually like Mr. Scruffy, and has been shown to feed and play with him, showing a side of him we haven't seen before,
is it possible that Belkar might develop a good heart? possible that Mr.Scruffy might make Belkar a better person?

Is it possible that Belkars friendship with a cat that was previously owned by a chaotic good ruler, might lead him to redemption?

No. Definitely no.

Rich has mae it very clear in his writings on villains that they aren't necessarily puppy-kicking jerks at all times to all things.

Belkar likes cats; they're cute. That doesn't mean he isn't a mass-murdering sociopath who is evil to the absolute core.

Plus, as a ranger, he is entitled to a useless animal friend as part of his class description.

[Moechi_Vill]

NPC's aren't human until your mind lets them be.

Some people would say it is bad roleplaying, but since it is a game or a simulator it is a simple choice the conditions under which you wish to interact with the creations of the simulator.

Belkar's player is either consciously trying to act evil or he doesn't care for what the GM considers 'sentient' people. But as far as his loyalty towards the party is concerned, I find it highly unrealistic that with his compass of morals he's gone this far without murdering his own. His player is definitely taking the (hypothetical*2) IRL group cohesion, enjoyment and continuity of the game for his friends into account.

He probably just likes to frag (in the killing and not betraying sense) every now and then, which fits in well with Belkar's need to get hack into the saddle.

[B.I.T.T.]

Also I just realized something, about the gnome event. I also long thought it was a rape the dog moment for killing some harmless merchant who didn't provoked him or anything. BUT (he had candy and B didn't) No, really. remember, B was trappid in Azurite City for months. So he couldn't KILL anything 8living). It is like don#t having sex for months or something to him, I think, not even masturbating. And all of you, who are old enough, probably understand his suffering. (Yeah, he killed the hobgoblin a panel before but one kill is no kill, isn't it?)

True, but keep in mind that he also got to kill a huge pile of hobgoblins just before letting out the fammed "Shoeless god of war" quote, so you'd think he'd have gotten back his normal homicidal tendency level after that, pluse Tsukiko was always giving him new undead to pick on.

[Kolbur]

One is a small hairy killer who can't live long without murdering something to death and who only cares about himself and the other one is Belkar...
It's like they share a soul or something. :smallbiggrin:

[AceOfFools]

He takes joy in the cruelty he projects onto cat ("Two stone cold killers..."), much the same way he takes joy in his own cruelty. So no, there is no chance of Scruffy redeeming Belkar.

Besides, liking your pet is hardly a redeeming quality. More tears were shed over the death of the rancor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancor) than in the entire rest of the original Star Wars trilogy.

[arkol]

Isn't it obvious? Mr. Scruffy will become the animal companion (as in the class feature :P ) that Belkar never had.

[Roderick_BR]

He likes Mr.Scruff the same way Lobo likes his space dolphins. Even a chaotic sociopath murdere can have a soft spot for pets.

[Ninjamuffin]

One is a small hairy killer who can't live long without murdering something to death and who only cares about himself and the other one is Belkar...
It's like they share a soul or something. :smallbiggrin:

He's a cat, He's a Halfling
They're Cops!

[FrankNorman]

Quite apart from all the obviously evil acts he has performed and continues to perform, it's stated quite clearly in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) that he's Chaotic Evil. Case closed.

That strip has one of the creepiest lines in the story - in fact, one of the creepiest lines I've ever seen.
I refer to: "The angel... doesn't work here anymore."

Belkar there is being told that he's considered a lost cause, that the forces of Good have given up on him. That his choices are now just between short-term evil or long-term evil.
In theological terms, Belkar is being informed that he's a reprobate.

Mind you, the being doing the informing is a demon (or a demon-avatar for Belkar's own evil thoughts) so its words should not be taken as unquestionably true.

[Ramien]

Belkar's player is either consciously trying to act evil or he doesn't care for what the GM considers 'sentient' people. But as far as his loyalty towards the party is concerned, I find it highly unrealistic that with his compass of morals he's gone this far without murdering his own. His player is definitely taking the (hypothetical*2) IRL group cohesion, enjoyment and continuity of the game for his friends into account.


Remember, this is the same Belkar who once tried to kill Elan solely for the experience points needed to level. The only reason he was stopped from doing so was because the rest of the party would then kill him.

[Zorn]

One is a small hairy killer who can't live long without murdering something to death and who only cares about himself and the other one is Belkar...
It's like they share a soul or something. :smallbiggrin:

You, sir, just made my day.:smallwink:

As for Mr. Scruffy changing Belkar, I'm already a firm believer that Belkar is in fact Lawful Good.

Please don't hurt me...

[Kato]

As for Mr. Scruffy changing Belkar, I'm already a firm believer that Belkar is in fact Lawful Good.

Please don't hurt me...

Woohoo, secret PS? ^^'

Anyway... if B is lawful good, then I'm an Aasimar... 's and a Tiefling's child...