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View Full Version : WTH!!! did I do??? SR breach of DOOOM!!! perhaps??? you tell me...



Brother Numsie
2008-06-13, 09:17 PM
ok... this is what I did...

Warmage 8 / Holy Scourge 5 / Demonwrecker 5 (total CL 17).

I have Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

both PrC's grant their lvls as a bonus on overcoming the SR of Evil creatures, the Demonwrecker vs Chaotic and Evil Outsiders, and the Holy Scourge vs Evil creatures...

here's to tally it up:

vs. Evil Creatures +9 (+5 Holy Scourge, +5 Demonwrecker, +4 feats)
vs. Evil Outsiders +14 (+5 Holy Scourge, +5 Demonwrecker, +4 feats)
vs. Chaotic Outsiders +9 (+5 Demonwrecker, +4 feats)
vs. Chaotic Evil Outsiders AUTOMATIC SUCCESS

so... with a base CL of 17, that would make it:

+31 vs. Evil outsiders
+26 vs. Evil creatures
+26 vs. Chaotic outsiders
AUTOMATIC SUCCESS vs. Chaotic Evil outsiders

sources: Warmage [Complete Arcane], Holy Scourge [Complete Mage], Demonwrecker [Demonweb Pits - Adventure]

FinalJustice
2008-06-13, 09:22 PM
Well, pretty nice numbers you've got there, but:

1- Why Warmage? Coudn't it be wizard, sorcerer or beguiler? Warmage is a lackluster spellcaster.
2- With spells like Assay Resistance and Lower Spell Resistance, SR is quite easy to overcome. Plus, 20th beguilers just ignore it with surprise casting.

Brother Numsie
2008-06-13, 09:31 PM
I used the Warmage as I really like that class, but yes one can use any Arcane casting class for that matter... and if you erase the Holy Scourge from this you could be looking at a Divine caster because the Demonwracker is both Arcane and Divine... though you don't get Spell Smite if you're a Divine caster...

Brother Numsie
2008-06-13, 09:38 PM
Besides... the Holy Scourge requires you to be able to cast 3rd level evocation spells, which the Warmage gets automatically... true that any arcane caster (except for Beguiler I think) get 3rd lvl evocation spells...

What I like about the Warmage in particular is the ability at 8th level to cast spells in medium armor and it's ability to add the INT bonus on dmg...

Yes I know that many other classes give the ability to use spells in heavier armor BUT I like to look for the easiest accessable way to get what I want without having to much fuss over it... I hate paperwork in games as I see it as a hindrance to gameplay... too much of it just bogs down playtime and I don't want to be the one that contributes to that...

marjan
2008-06-13, 09:44 PM
Beguiler with Heighten Spell would be able to qualify, since Dancing Lights is on their list. Why would one do that is beyond me, though.

hamishspence
2008-06-14, 07:21 AM
Sage advice tells us Bane property doesn't stack for monsters with two alignment subtypes. A +1 evil outsider bane/chaotic outsider bane does not get both properties against chaotic evil outsiders.

Do demonwreckers automatic penetrate SR of CE outsiders?

Brother Numsie
2008-06-14, 09:09 AM
The Demonwrecker gets an untyped bonus equal to his class level to overcome the Spell Resistance of "Evil" and "Chaotic" outsiders and an automatic penetration to the Spell Resistance of "Chaotic Evil" outsiders.

The Holy Scourge gets an untyped bonus equal to his class level to overcome the Spell Resistance of ANY Evil creature.

Both PrC's are 5 level classes.

If the Demonwrecker casts a damaging spell then half of that damage is untyped holy damage (except for cases like Flamestrike in the case of Divine casters, then it's 1/4 fire damage and 3/4 untyped holy damage).

When the Holy Scourge casts a damaging "evocation" spell, he gets a total +2 per spell level as an untyped holy damage versus evil creatures. So if he's casting a 3rd level evocation damage spell against a evil creature he gets a +6 untyped holy damage.

If you have the feat "Piercing Evocation" you get to have 10 points of the damaging spell as untyped damage.


The Beguiler can't qualify for the Holy Scourge PrC because he need's to be able to cast 3 evocation spells.

JaxGaret
2008-06-14, 09:20 AM
If you're fighting some Chaotic Evil outsiders or lots and lots of Evil or Chaotic outsiders in general, then yeah, Demonwrecker is nice to have. Otherwise, not so much.

Holy Scourge loses you a spellcasting level, so it's not really all that good. I'm playing a Warmage6/ExaltedArcanist5/Fatespinner4/HolyScourge5 in a game right now. It's not an optimized combination, but it sure is fun.

But sure, if you want to think so, you found an Ultimate Combination. Have fun with it! :smallsmile:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-14, 09:32 AM
If you have the feat "Piercing Evocation" you get to have 10 points of the damaging spell as untyped damage.

Piercing Evocation is the most useless ability ever. All it does is guarantee that you do 10 damage, or the same damage you would normally do. And 10 damage doesn't matter, since Fighter Joe does that on average at level 1.

Think about it, you cast Maximized Fireball, you have Piercing Evocation, your enemy has resistance between 0-60, this is what happens:

Resistance 0-60 damage
Resistance 10-50 damage
Resistance 20-40 damage
Resistance 30-30 damage
Resistance 40-20 damage
Resistance 50-10 damage
Resistance 60-10 damage

It doesn't help except to give you a minimum of 10 damage, it's like WotC forgot how their math worked with resistances.

Brother Numsie
2008-06-14, 09:44 AM
I'm not saying that Piercing Evocation is a good feat but for a theme based build it's a good choice, it's not optimal but what fun is there to play a game where EVERYTHING has to be optimal? No one's perfect and if everyone is playing a perfect "build" then there's not much fun as it becomes a competition between the DM and the players. The player makes a character with a tactic versus everything the DM can throw at him. The DM comes with a monster or monsters that can beat THAT player and the other players are wiped out... not fun...

I dislike playing in a game where everything has to be as close to 100% optimal as possible... I'm playing in one and I've almost lost all drive to do anything in the game, I mean I've lost like 18 characters while the one that knows the innermost workings of the setting conquers everytime...

When I DM and I find something in a setting I don't like or think it contradicts something I simply change it and write down what that change is...

JaxGaret
2008-06-14, 11:32 AM
Sure, that's plenty fine, but take a look at the title of this thread, and explain how that doesn't elude to optimization.

Brother Numsie
2008-06-14, 11:57 AM
True... since I started playing DnD many many many years ago I've always played with ppl that want to get the most out of their characters and so I've always soaked the information from them like a sponge...

today I can't switch off the optimization thinking process... I've slowed it down but it's always there, working in the background...

it happens sometimes that I go into a manic state of optimizing and this was the case with this thread...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-14, 12:33 PM
I'm not saying that Piercing Evocation is a good feat but for a theme based build it's a good choice, it's not optimal but what fun is there to play a game where EVERYTHING has to be optimal? No one's perfect and if everyone is playing a perfect "build" then there's not much fun as it becomes a competition between the DM and the players. The player makes a character with a tactic versus everything the DM can throw at him. The DM comes with a monster or monsters that can beat THAT player and the other players are wiped out... not fun...

I dislike playing in a game where everything has to be as close to 100% optimal as possible... I'm playing in one and I've almost lost all drive to do anything in the game, I mean I've lost like 18 characters while the one that knows the innermost workings of the setting conquers everytime...

When I DM and I find something in a setting I don't like or think it contradicts something I simply change it and write down what that change is...

Or they could have made the ability actually have some effect like: "You treat opponents resistance as if it were 10 less then it is." Or you could take an ability like Fiery Spell, or Corrupt Magic that has an actual game mechanic effect and fits the theme.

Why does everyone think that choosing an ability that has absolutely no effect is somehow even a justifiable choice. If I print a homebrew feat called "Hero of Caltar" and the effect of the feat is "Any who take this feat are the heros of Caltar, but Caltar does not exist on the map, and you cannot go there, and this has no effect." Then yes, you are an idiot for taking this feat. You deserve to have your books taken away and never returned. Because you could just as easily said "I am the hero of Caltar." And you could just as easily have said, "my Evocations are really awesome." You don't need to cripple your character by spending feats to do absolutely nothing in order to have fluff, you just make whatever fluff claims you want, and pick feats that fit your character and are worth a feat slot.

Brother Numsie
2008-06-14, 02:26 PM
wow... you just really put it into perspective for me... uh thanks... <sarcasm>

EVERY feat can have a purpose, even feats like "Piercing Evocation," just because I take a feat that doesn't do anything doesn't mean the character sucks... I'm making a "character" not a "build"... I don't copy others because they have a "great build"... I look at what they've done and incorporate it into a character... for me it's more than just numbers (though numbers can be fun to play with)...

for you to suggest that my books be taken away for having a feat that doesn't do as much as you'd like is just childish... it fits my character to use it, it fits to the theme, it's a free feat gained through a backstory (which you didn't know, you just assumed I had taken it for the fluff)... everything about this character is backed by a solid backstory... it's way too long to translate into english and language specific to get many points accross...

in one of my gaming groups (the one this character is in) we use feats to represent titles, various accomplishments, abilities gained through story driven achievements...

there is a purpose for EVERYTHING... you just have to look outside the numbers to find it...

SoD
2008-06-14, 02:40 PM
I'd agree with Numsie, on the bit about playing characters, rather than builds. So what if you're not completely optimised up the wazoo? So peircing evocation isn't that good, even if it wasn't a free feat, so what? He wants to play an evocation specialist without needing so much paperwork. I prefur playing sorcerers to wizards, and favoured souls to clerics. Why? Less paperwork. Yeah, less power, but I enjoy the fluff more as well. I don't dump charisma just because it's 'useless'. I enjoy playing monks. A character isn't meant to be uber-powerful, it's meant to be fun to play. Finet.

Brother Numsie
2008-06-14, 02:50 PM
I'd agree with Numsie, on the bit about playing characters, rather than builds. So what if you're not completely optimised up the wazoo? So peircing evocation isn't that good, even if it wasn't a free feat, so what? He wants to play an evocation specialist without needing so much paperwork. I prefur playing sorcerers to wizards, and favoured souls to clerics. Why? Less paperwork. Yeah, less power, but I enjoy the fluff more as well. I don't dump charisma just because it's 'useless'. I enjoy playing monks. A character isn't meant to be uber-powerful, it's meant to be fun to play. Finet.

Finally, someone who understands...

Worira
2008-06-14, 03:43 PM
The thing is, it's not a matter of the feat being bad. It's a matter of the feat being outright useless unless you're firing spells at creatures that are immune to them. So it's really not enhancing your fluff unless your fluff is "likes to shoot fire elementals with fireballs".