A toast to nice guys who never get their dues

[Executor]

I found this article in a university campus newspaper and I agree with every word said:

"This is a tribute to us nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and *****ing about what *******s guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because they know most girls need that litany of support. This is in honor of the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern. This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl’s every facet, from her privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends back from parties and never take advantage once they’re at her door, for the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for compliments but give them out anyway, for the guys who always play by the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don’t end up being boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it. This is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor. This is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should. And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can’t. From what I have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative *****es. Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they say irrational, confusing things such as “oh, he’s too nice to date” or “he would be a good boyfriend but he’s not for me” or “he already puts up with so much from me, I couldn’t possibly ask him out!” or the most frustrating of all: “no, it would ruin our friendship.” Yet, they continue to lament the lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys, girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can’t figure out why the connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what they do (I’m going to sleep with this complete ass now!). But one thing I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn’t last forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single.

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all us nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming"

[Conrad Poohs]

At last, recognition for my people!. Sex isn't that important anyway ...unless you've got access to it of course :smalltongue:. :smallsigh: One day perhaps... maybe tomorrow :smallwink:.

[Turnips]

Hear hear!

...Somehow it doesn't make me feel any better, though. Darn it.

[SDF]

Seriously? The entire thing is trite. It shows a really negative view of women as people who get trashed all the time, complain, and need babysitting by the "nice guy." The "nice guy" isn't even nice. He sounds like a pushover who has to endure the company of his female friends instead of being actual friends with him. He sounds like a creep with no backbone for talking to the girls he's friends with, that isn't what makes a nice guy. And the biggest complaint is that he can't get laid, which is petty, and almost guaranteed to be because of social skill rather than how good of a person he is.

[Gaelbert]

Seriously? The entire thing is trite. It shows a really negative view of women as people who get trashed all the time, complain, and need babysitting by the "nice guy." The "nice guy" isn't even nice. He sounds like a pushover who has to endure the company of his female friends instead of being actual friends with him. He sounds like a creep with no backbone for talking to the girls he's friends with, that isn't what makes a nice guy. And the biggest complaint is that he can't get laid, which is petty, and almost guaranteed to be because of social skill rather than how good of a person he is.

Not has to endure- does endure because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do.
Heh. Story of my life. Not that I'm bitter. Of course not.:smallannoyed:

[Axl_Rose]

Seriously? The entire thing is trite. It shows a really negative view of women as people who get trashed all the time, complain, and need babysitting by the "nice guy." The "nice guy" isn't even nice. He sounds like a pushover who has to endure the company of his female friends instead of being actual friends with him. He sounds like a creep with no backbone for talking to the girls he's friends with, that isn't what makes a nice guy. And the biggest complaint is that he can't get laid, which is petty, and almost guaranteed to be because of social skill rather than how good of a person he is.

Oooo! There's a feisty point of view. And probably an underlooked one too had you not mentioned it!

I would have to agree with SDF to an extent; there are some "nice guys" who are nice guys by nature, and there are those who are nice guys for all the wrong reasons. (although technically, just because you're a nice guy for all the wrong reasons it's still in your nature to be doing it for all the wrong reasons but these are pointless semantics; you get what I'm trying to say :smalltongue: )

I would decline to generalise all nice guys like that though; the original piece of writing is more humorous and light hearted than an actual declaration, so I wouldn't take it all too seriously.

That being said; there's nothing wrong with giving props to guys who feel like they've unhappily played the role of "we're just good friends ='(" one too many times.

[CannibalHymn]

The misogyny is strong with you, young one.

I'm in this role in a lot of peoples' lives, but I get laid plenty. Go find excuses besides women being manipulative and underappreciative; it's opinions like that that tend to inspire them not to sleep with you.

I'd like to ask, in a similar vein, what in the hell is wrong with being just good friends?

[Thanatos 51-50]

SDF's post was... mildly unexpected.

Yeah, playing the "Friend and never the lover" role sucks, but ultimatly, its our fault we play it.
Heres to the nice guys. *toast*
Now relise you aren't tied down to that one girl and look around. Some of those other girls may spark your interest and be willing to go out for a cup of joe.
Do it. Now. Why are you even still reading this?

[Jae]

there are some "nice guys" who are nice guys by nature, and there are those who are nice guys for all the wrong reasons.
I have this quiet theory that either nobody is "nice by nature" or we are all nice by nature. My point being, I dont think anybody is naturally nicer than anybody else. And I know Im not going to be able to say this in a way that makes sense, Im rather tired, but if it is in somebodys personality to be nice...wheres the problem??

Nice only means something if its worked for. And, I never felt particularly special when somebody was nice because they felt they had to be. That's an obligation, not a genuine concern.

More on-topic, I completely and utterly agree with SDF. Im not even sure if I can add anything to it, but that basically grasps my whole opinion of the "nice guy." (Moreover, it comes from both sides. "nice girls" feel their looked over, too..its scarcely a gender thing.)

[Bag_of_Holding]

SDF has a point. "Oh I'm being such a good friend but why are you not sleeping with me?" is a thought I find objectionable. As much as girls appreciate someone 'being there' for them, that appreciation and attraction to Casanova are two completely different things.

If one's supposed nicety ain't earning the ultimate goal he desires (and assumes he deserves), then I'd recommend looking at the general sense of fashion/hygiene/general attractiveness etc. However nice one may be, if there's no click there's no creak.


Edit: Also, doing one's work for them ain't never a basis for forming an affection or a relationship with potential for further development.
Edit2: In addition, girls who follow the said logic (as the article mentions girls were 'illogical') do exist: they are often referred with s-words and are synonymous with a few Hollywood actresses and a certain lady with a rash.

[Gaelbert]

I have this quiet theory that either nobody is "nice by nature" or we are all nice by nature. My point being, I dont think anybody is naturally nicer than anybody else. And I know Im not going to be able to say this in a way that makes sense, Im rather tired, but if it is in somebodys personality to be nice...wheres the problem??
Well, as you've told me over and over, people run over you and take advantage of you if you're nice. So it doesn't necessarily always work out for the best.


Nice only means something if its worked for. And, I never felt particularly special when somebody was nice because they felt they had to be. That's an obligation, not a genuine concern.

No one can ever be forced to do something. There can be additional factors resulting in a decision, but ultimately the choice is yours as to how you act. And the acts that are nice that people do "have" to do, they are the ones that aren't noticed, and taken for granted. And rightly so. So there are way more nice actons than one might think, but you just don't notice them because everyone is assumed to do those things.


More on-topic, I completely and utterly agree with SDF. Im not even sure if I can add anything to it, but that basically grasps my whole opinion of the "nice guy." (Moreover, it comes from both sides. "nice girls" feel their looked over, too..its scarcely a gender thing.)
It seems to me that if an essay like this was created attacking men, it wouldn't really be considered sexist. (I could be wrong about that, though.)
And because this boy is considered a pushover, does this make it any more right to take advantage of him? I should think not. In fact, it seems like an even worse thing to do if you know said boy won't refuse.
As I said earlier, "Not has to endure- does endure because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do." I believe it still fits.
A person is considered a creep because he talks to his female friends?:smallconfused: I'm sorry, but someone will have to explain that to me.
Complaining about not getting laid is petty. Very true. But that doesn't really seem like that's what the article is about. The essay seems more to say that these people don't get recognized, and don't get noticed at all.
I'm sure there are nice girls. But I think that there are far less of them than these stereotypical nice guys. Among my own female friends, I can't think of anyone like that. However, I'm sure that's the whole point of the "nice person." They don't get noticed.

Phew. I'm done now.

[BooTheHamster]

I agree with SDF.

As a nice guy, I have to say, for one thing, it's a bit hypocritical to consider yourself different from all the other guys if all you want is to get laid. And, I have to say that at least the 'other guys' are up-front about it, which is exactly why they get the girls. A lot of 'nice guys' just lack the self-esteem to actually do anything and just sit back, waiting for girls to fall on their laps(figuratively, I mean). I mean, there's nice and there's nice. Believe me, assertiveness is the way to go. There's a difference between being a supportive friend and being the 'nice' guy they all pretty much consider another girl(much like the tomboy who's seen as 'one of the guys').

From personal experience, I can tell you that it's not that girls like being mistreated, it's that the guys who do it are confident, often arrogant, jerks, and girls like that. They like the confidence. I can personally attest to this, and I'm not too proud of why. Ideally, they also want a guy who's sensitive and caring, but if they're not attracted to you, it doesn't matter if you're Winnie the Pooh, they'll still think of you as their teddy. Basically they get one man from two by being with the jerk and crying to you.

And this isn't to say anything bad about girls either, it's actually kind of common sense. Imagine you're a woman in the caveman days(because these analogies always explain EVERYTHING). Would you rather have A) A guy who's a jerk but can go out, kill the mammoth, and feed you or B) A guy who'll sit with you while you cry about starving to death? Secret answer C. A combination of both, is what girls want, in my opinion, but with only two options visible, it's pretty clear that the mammoth killer wins 95-99% of the time, whilst the other guy mutters to himself about how he'd ask nicely rather than knock her out with a club and drag her to his cave.

Also, niceness comes from an honest, invested interest in the other person, not an 'if I do this, I'll get that' attitude that I've seen in a lot of 'nice' guys.

In addition, I think this article foments self-pity to an extent, which can be quite damaging socially.

By the way, I don't mean to offend anybody, I just thought I'd share my point of view. There are nice guys out there, it's just that no one is ever going to see them unless they know how to be noticed as viable candidates for boyfriendhood.

[Jae]

Okay, this is really off-topic but I dont want to make my own quirky thread and theres nobody I think I can ask this question and expect a thought-provoking answer. (Or, there may be some, but it may be awkward and seem like i was just searching to find out why they may like whoever they like...)


if there's no click there's no creak.
Where does this "click" come from?? that sounds lame but Im totally serious.

Not to ask anyone for specifics, this isnt a personal question, but what makes people in general fall head-over-heels for someone else? Physical attraction? Certain personality?? More importantly, what makes this attraction STICK..sometimes to a regardless point. Ive seen many crush on somebody for months whom they barely talk to, I've seen people get treated horridly by their crushs and still be crazy for them..etcetc. I mean, there must be a REAL reason for all this complication.. as far as the way the mind works and everything

[Cobra_Ikari]

Am I a nice guy? I try to be. I want to make people smile. And...have good days. *nods*

...getting laid is not something that should be a "reward" for being nice.

*hugs Jae*

[loopy]

I agree with most of what is being said, even though a guy who did all of that would be more doormat than man.

I went through the phase of being too nice, but I think I've finally found the balance between nice and... well, whatever the opposite is. So don't give up home, people! You'll get there!

Just don't try too hard, lol.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Where does this "click" come from?? that sounds lame but Im totally serious.
"Click" is a word that I used to describe the feeling that you get when you see a perfectly normal guy who seems to have gotten stuck in your mind for no reason at all. He makes your heart goes ponk ponk with warmth and your stomach feels like it's got a thousand butterflies flying inside. When you realise the grand truth behind the feeling, you get a Click.

"Creak" is just an onomatopoeia I used to describe what happens at night in honeymoon resorts.

Thus, No Click, No Creak.



Not to ask anyone for specifics, this isnt a personal question, but what makes people in general fall head-over-heels for someone else? Physical attraction? Certain personality?? More importantly, what makes this attraction STICK..sometimes to a regardless point. Ive seen many crush on somebody for months whom they barely talk to, I've seen people get treated horridly by their crushs and still be crazy for them..etcetc. I mean, there must be a REAL reason for all this complication.. as far as the way the mind works and everything

I find cute guys irresistable. They're not an object of a crush though; my crush was always on teachers. Now I'm past the age where I'd have any more chemicals left to trigger a crush, I'm afraid.

I'll define my version of cute guys: here's a guy who does science degree (or medicine or whatever smart guys study) and he's really into studying. He won't be chasing other girls around and he'll be just as happy left alone in a lab as he'd be at my place having lunch. Someone independant. Someone... resembles a cat in behaviour, I guess- independant yet not totally chaotic or rebellious. A geek cat, if you get my gist.


Am I a nice guy? I try to be. I want to make people smile. And...have good days. *nods*

...getting laid is not something that should be a "reward" for being nice.

*hugs Jae*
I'm not sure if you're a "Nice Guy" as the original article may define. As far as my observation in your behaviour goes (which limits it to Gitp forums), you're definitely a person I wouldn't mind having around: a position in relationship upon which many wonderful things are said to bloom.

[Jae]

Well, as you've told me over and over, people run over you and take advantage of you if you're nice. So it doesn't necessarily always work out for the best.
And with thus, the personality would change. But I dont think people who have a "nice" (whatever that is) personality are thinking "well this is getting me nowhere!" That just would be nice. Or maybe we're all playing on words because this isnt a solid definition. fdkahfa im not getting my thoughts across like I want to and its starting to frustrate me so just read that and assume Im omitting the clearest parts...


No one can ever be forced to do something. There can be additional factors resulting in a decision, but ultimately the choice is yours as to how you act. And the acts that are nice that people do "have" to do, they are the ones that aren't noticed, and taken for granted. And rightly so. So there are way more nice actons than one might think, but you just don't notice them because everyone is assumed to do those things.
You can force yourself to do something. I've definitely made a "commitment" to being nice and as it turns out...it was more that choice in my own life I cared about then the actual people I was trying to be nice to. It was a wall, and I think without such an obligation (even a self-obligation) I could have been nicer in a way that matters. You have to understand people without worrying about what you should/shouldnt do, because ultimately that mindset may end up disregarding the very thing you're striving for.



It seems to me that if an essay like this was created attacking men, it wouldn't really be considered sexist. (I could be wrong about that, though.)
And because this boy is considered a pushover, does this make it any more right to take advantage of him? I should think not. In fact, it seems like an even worse thing to do if you know said boy won't refuse.
If this essay was written about a girl, it wouldnt be considered sexist.
Im not sure where the advantage bit comes up..


As I said earlier, "Not has to endure- does endure because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do." I believe it still fits.
The point is, these are your friends. What if they heard those words, "does endure because its right." Mayhaps you should enjoy talking to these people, as opposed to bearing with awkwardly because its nice. Does that make sense?? In my mind, guys should be the same with the girl friends as their guy friends. If they are really good friends. acquaintances i can understand the need for politeness and that kind of endurance, but not friends.

EDIT:

*hugs Jae*
uhh..
it was not stated in a complain-ey WHY DOES IT HAPPEN kind of way but an actually looking-for-an-answer kind of way. its always assumed that such a feeling exists but for what reason and what triggers it and Ive actually been thinking about this all day but can find no way to word it that comes off as a serious question..

@bag_of_holding
lol sorry i dont really have a response because i really wasnt actually looking for specifics.

haha nevermind guys I dont think I can ask it the way I want to at this point. ill try and figure it out myself

[Cobra_Ikari]

"Click" is a word that I used to describe the feeling that you get when you see a perfectly normal guy who seems to have gotten stuck in your mind for no reason at all. He makes your heart goes ponk ponk with warmth and your stomach feels like it's got a thousand butterflies flying inside. When you realise the grand truth behind the feeling, you get a Click.

"Creak" is just an onomatopoeia I used to describe what happens at night in honeymoon resorts.

Thus, No Click, No Creak.




I find cute guys irresistable. They're not an object of a crush though; my crush was always on teachers. Now I'm past the age where I'd have any more chemicals left to trigger a crush, I'm afraid.

I'll define my version of cute guys: here's a guy who does science degree (or medicine or whatever smart guys study) and he's really into studying. He won't be chasing other girls around and he'll be just as happy left alone in a lab as he'd be at my place having lunch. Someone independant. Someone... resembles a cat in behaviour, I guess- independant yet not totally chaotic or rebellious. A geek cat, if you get my gist.

Can I just say that I love how you talk? >.>

Also...*purrs, coils in lap*...like so? :smallamused:

[CannibalHymn]

It seems to me that if an essay like this was created attacking men, it wouldn't really be considered sexist. (I could be wrong about that, though.)
I don't know if "would be considered" in the general sense, but it would be.

And because this boy is considered a pushover, does this make it any more right to take advantage of him? I should think not. In fact, it seems like an even worse thing to do if you know said boy won't refuse.
See, the problem with the article is that it expresses that if one does nice things for a lady, and is her friend, without getting sex for it, one is being taken advantage of. I don't spend a day with a friend, listening to their troubles if that is what it entails, get home, and feel betrayed because they didn't have sex with me for it, regardless of their gender.


As I said earlier, "Not has to endure- does endure because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do." I believe it still fits.
I think the idea referred to was that women were bothersome tarts who, regardless of the necessity of the action, were to be endured.


A person is considered a creep because he talks to his female friends?:smallconfused: I'm sorry, but someone will have to explain that to me.
No, a person is considered a creep because he talks to his female friends with the evident ulterior motive of getting in their pants, which is furtive and manipulative, so pretty dead-on creepy.


Complaining about not getting laid is petty. Very true. But that doesn't really seem like that's what the article is about. The essay seems more to say that these people don't get recognized, and don't get noticed at all.
Well, no, not really. It's about how the girls don't have sexual relationships with them. Which pretty much means that they don't get laid.

Also, I agree with Boo the Hamster, for the most part, especially the summations about niceness not being for a reward (to a degree, I have some philosophical qualms about defining altruism quite like that), and, to quote Murakami, "Don't feel sorry for yourself, only *******s do that." =P

[Bag_of_Holding]

Can I just say that I love how you talk? >.>

Also...*purrs, coils in lap*...like so? :smallamused:

Like, messing up grammars and forgetting to fix it after a few editting? :smallbiggrin: "makes your heart goes" Ha!ha!

I guess a cat-like behaviour in guys could involve occassional cuddly behaviours.


No, a person is considered a creep because he talks to his female friends with the evident ulterior motive of getting in their pants, which is furtive and manipulative, so pretty dead-on creepy.

In case gentlefolks didn't know, it's inherent in ladyfolks to sense such motives. We get +4 racial bonus too, you know.

Edit: Wait, we're on 4e now, aren't we? We get "Sense Ulterior Motive" as our racial at-will power. :smallbiggrin:

[Cobra_Ikari]

That would make me happy. I do so adore snuggles.

Also, for some reason, I can't stop associating the phrase "Nice guys finish last" with "But don't the girls prefer it when that happens?" >.<

[BooTheHamster]

Where does this "click" come from?? that sounds lame but Im totally serious.

Not to ask anyone for specifics, this isnt a personal question, but what makes people in general fall head-over-heels for someone else? Physical attraction? Certain personality?? More importantly, what makes this attraction STICK..sometimes to a regardless point. Ive seen many crush on somebody for months whom they barely talk to, I've seen people get treated horridly by their crushs and still be crazy for them..etcetc. I mean, there must be a REAL reason for all this complication.. as far as the way the mind works and everything

I'm going to be the wiki guy for this one. Sorry, but I didn't want to write a huge long post.

Interpersonal Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_attraction)

As for me, I like smart girls. Smart, funny, honest, and moderately enigmatic. Pretty much girls very similar to me, but with way better social skills and a lot of confidence. :smalleek:

[Jayngfet]

*Raises glass* Here here.

[Pyrian]

I've known a fair number of supposedly "nice" guys who were real jerks, of one stripe or another. I've known some people who are jerks on the surface but very cool once you get to know them. It makes it hard to make good generalizations.

Still, the connection is there. I think the causality behind the correlation goes like this: some guys are socially fearful. This fosters two effects: (1) being afraid of people getting mad at them, they behave in ways that come across as being "nice" (they may or may not actually be nice to one degree or another!); and (2) they don't get laid, presumably due to lack of confidence (I will confess to not understanding this part of the equation nearly as well, but it definitely seems to be true).

[Vampire包子]

*clinks glass*
Be patient; after many years, I found one such girl, they do exist! Sometimes, after jerk-boyfriend cheats and they find out, they will in fact realize that we, the nice guys of the world, have been by their side all along. And they will be interest in a relationship.

Unfortunately, most girls don't realize this until they're about 30. Sorry. But once they get to marriagable age, they'll stop "playing with the bad boys" and settle down with a "nice boy". Hopefully.

[Green Bean]

I'm kind of on the side of SDF and co. here. I'm not seeing the guy as being taken advantage of. The guy's doing stuff that's part and parcel of being a good friend. That's all. Seriously, the teasing, the talking, the going to parties just because they're going? That's normal stuff you do with a close friend; male or female. The fact that this guy is apparently only putting up with it because he wants to get laid certainly makes me want to question their "friendship".

[Vuzzmop]

Seriously? The entire thing is trite. It shows a really negative view of women as people who get trashed all the time, complain, and need babysitting by the "nice guy." The "nice guy" isn't even nice. He sounds like a pushover who has to endure the company of his female friends instead of being actual friends with him. He sounds like a creep with no backbone for talking to the girls he's friends with, that isn't what makes a nice guy. And the biggest complaint is that he can't get laid, which is petty, and almost guaranteed to be because of social skill rather than how good of a person he is.

Oooooh, bitter much?

I don't think you get the point. Guys like me don't get noticed because we are nice, not because we are "Creeps with no backbone". Its insulting to be quite frank.

Tell me that you've never met a shy, timid, nice boy who listens to your problems without complaining. And if you can't, tell me you didn't just love it.
I admit that the article itself was not written too well to defend itself against those who do not understand the nice guys point of view, but surely you understand what it was getting at? I myself spend much of my time with female friends listening to how horrible their life is, or what time of month it is, or how infuriating men can be, and I put up with it. Why? Not because I am a spineless creep with sexual issues, but because I am a nice person who can put up with the nature of your gender. Women don't get this, and they probably never will, but; Not everything is about you, us, and the intercourse in between.We can be your friends, we can listen to you, help you and support you through what must be such a horrible life, and we don't need to get anything back. Why? Because we are nice.

We don't get the girl, we don't get to be the bad boy or the cool one, we don't get to be noticed. All we want is to be your friends.

[Dallas-Dakota]

I have this quiet theory that either nobody is "nice by nature" or we are all nice by nature. My point being, I dont think anybody is naturally nicer than anybody else.
Nobody is nice by nature, except Bor.

[Behold_the_Void]

I used to have this view myself, and then I realized that I wasn't doing myself any real favors and I took steps to correct it. It's helped a lot. Really, a strong personality goes a long way. A sense of style and generally good hygiene help too.

[Holy_Knight]

Okay, here's the short version:

Yes, there's something to the original article. We've all, male and female alike, had female friends who went around dating one jackass after another, crying about it, and bemoaning how awful guys are while never learning from their mistakes. If a guy really is a good guy (i.e. real nice, not "nice") who doesn't get a lot of dates, and on top of that constantly hears these girls claiming that they wish they could find a guy whose description sounds suspiciously just like him, of course he's going to feel resentful to some extent--at, say, the universe, if not at the girls themselves--and that's a justifiable reaction.

However, that being said, any guy whose goal is to get "laid" isn't really a good guy (i.e. real nice) in the first place. A truly nice guy would never think in those terms.

So, there you have it.

Or, if you like the even shorter version:

1. A lot of women need better judgement
2. A lot of nice guys need better confidence

The end.

[Bag_of_Holding]

We don't get the girl, we don't get to be the bad boy or the cool one, we don't get to be noticed. All we want is to be your friends.

Oh well, not everyone's you, I guess. :smallsigh:

[Vuzzmop]

I'm not talking in general, just about my female friends, and about other guys who think this way about their female friends. That was what I was getting at there (but I assume you already knew that, and were making a cheap shot:smallannoyed:).

[Bag_of_Holding]

I'm not talking in general, just about my female friends, and about other guys who think this way about their female friends. That was what I was getting at there (but I assume you already knew that, and were making a cheap shot:smallannoyed:).

Hmm, it seems I got carried away there. I feel very guilty about making that snide comment... :smallfrown: I apologise if you found it insulting.

Oh well, just to keep the thread going I might share a bit more about what kind of qualities make a girl's heart flutter.
Someone who goes at their own pace.
Being nice is one thing, and living their own life is another. It's good and all when a guy opens a door for a girl and it's a very nice of you to do so. But it's not something that *really* makes our hearts go ponk ponk. It's a guy at his element that makes our brains send that special signal. Allow me to define the person: it's a guy who's concentrating real hard on a difficult maths problem; it's a guy who's very much absorbed in making a machine (usually a car) work; it's a guy who's utterly devoted to his work, whatever it may be (more productive the better). It makes our brain wonder whether if we could trust the man with our lives or not- he's such a dedicated man after all! A nice guy, however, does the opposite in making such an impression. All we see is a guy who's very nice- a person that makes us slightly doubt whether if we could trust him to be our partner in life. Oh, if all those gentlefolks didn't realise, creaking the bed is something that comes *after* building an assumption/proposition/allusion of 'becoming a life-partner' for the most ladyfolks.

So if you want to woo a ladyfolk, try doing something that you can do best (D&D... generally doesn't help much, but working on the computer etc etc... does), and do them like a professional. Even if you're doing something obscure on the computer that we'll be very unlikely to grasp even the very fundamental, underlying principle, we do get our hearts going plonk plonk when we see a man at work. We know the man we see is a man who's taking the life head-on (gets very important as you get older), a man who'll be leading his life, not following behind his wife's back for all his life. We don't ask for a whole 'I-have-leadership-skillz' kind of display; rather, we want the proof of devotion to his life- not hers. The latter can wait until he climbs up the ladder of relationship from the level of acquaintance to a close friend and further.

So here's a tip for all of you gentlefolks who are good with computers in general: if a chance comes along for you to fix your fascination's computer, try not to look at her when you're doing it. Fix the computer, but with trying to explain some professional jargons while doing so. As long as you leave with an impression that you were in control of the situation, she'll finally remember you as someone who she can rely on to solve some of her problems. After all, computers are but one of our centuries-old enmity with machines, you know.

If computers ain't your thing, learning a few know-hows about fixing things/making things work etc does help quite a lot. If you're the smart guy in the class, helping her with her work may help too... and gets you some opportunities (and excuses) to be with her for an extended period of time.

OK, it kinda became a bit of a babble, but I think I got my point across: look professional, lead your own life- girls like that.

[Player_Zero]

So... What about the guys who aren't very nice and never get noticed?

...Hypothetically speaking, that is...

...:smallsigh:

[Bag_of_Holding]

So... What about the guys who aren't very nice and never get noticed?

...Hypothetically speaking, that is...

...:smallsigh:

One of my friends has a thing for cynical guys. Her current boyfriend is absolutely obnoxious though. I don't get along with him at all, frankly. About never getting noticed part... umm... I think "I'm sure you'll find somebody someday" will be the best response for the situation. Unless, of course, the person in hypothetical question is willing to improve on his social skills.

Sure, there are many ways to get 'noticed' without any good social skills (some girls find it 'cute', I believe), but I haven't lived long enough to see all that nor does my imaginary wisdom extend that far into the realm of true imaginary situations that I haven't faced before.

[Player_Zero]

One of my friends has a thing for cynical guys.

I prefer realist.

In that I share no disillusions that I have any redeeming qualities.

[Bag_of_Holding]

I prefer realist.

In that I share no disillusions that I have any redeeming qualities.

Meh, a good woman makes a good man out of the one she dedicates her life to. I think it's because it takes a good man to find such a ladyfolk, but who knows what this practical joke named life has in its hold?

[Jibar]

Well, here's to us guys who do all that without caring about the sex.
*drink*

[Player_Zero]

But who knows what this practical joke named life has in its hold?

Nonexistence for the main part, I'm willing to bet. Followed by light salad.

Still, I don't think you'll be able to get this cynic to believe in any real possibility of romance. If only because I know what kind of person I am.

[Ziren]

Hmm, it seems I got carried away there. I feel very guilty about making that snide comment... I apologise if you found it insulting.

Oh well, just to keep the thread going I might share a bit more about what kind of qualities make a girl's heart flutter.
Someone who goes at their own pace.
Being nice is one thing, and living their own life is another. It's good and all when a guy opens a door for a girl and it's a very nice of you to do so. But it's not something that *really* makes our hearts go ponk ponk. It's a guy at his element that makes our brains send that special signal. Allow me to define the person: it's a guy who's concentrating real hard on a difficult maths problem; it's a guy who's very much absorbed in making a machine (usually a car) work; it's a guy who's utterly devoted to his work, whatever it may be (more productive the better). It makes our brain wonder whether if we could trust the man with our lives or not- he's such a dedicated man after all! A nice guy, however, does the opposite in making such an impression. All we see is a guy who's very nice- a person that makes us slightly doubt whether if we could trust him to be our partner in life. Oh, if all those gentlefolks didn't realise, creaking the bed is something that comes *after* building an assumption/proposition/allusion of 'becoming a life-partner' for the most ladyfolks.

So if you want to woo a ladyfolk, try doing something that you can do best (D&D... generally doesn't help much, but working on the computer etc etc... does), and do them like a professional. Even if you're doing something obscure on the computer that we'll be very unlikely to grasp even the very fundamental, underlying principle, we do get our hearts going plonk plonk when we see a man at work. We know the man we see is a man who's taking the life head-on (gets very important as you get older), a man who'll be leading his life, not following behind his wife's back for all his life. We don't ask for a whole 'I-have-leadership-skillz' kind of display; rather, we want the proof of devotion to his life- not hers. The latter can wait until he climbs up the ladder of relationship from the level of acquaintance to a close friend and further.

So here's a tip for all of you gentlefolks who are good with computers in general: if a chance comes along for you to fix your fascination's computer, try not to look at her when you're doing it. Fix the computer, but with trying to explain some professional jargons while doing so. As long as you leave with an impression that you were in control of the situation, she'll finally remember you as someone who she can rely on to solve some of her problems. After all, computers are but one of our centuries-old enmity with machines, you know.

If computers ain't your thing, learning a few know-hows about fixing things/making things work etc does help quite a lot. If you're the smart guy in the class, helping her with her work may help too... and gets you some opportunities (and excuses) to be with her for an extended period of time.

OK, it kinda became a bit of a babble, but I think I got my point across: look professional, lead your own life- girls like that.

While I appreciate your effort to help guys getting girls attracted to them, I don't think that you should generalize your own gender that way. Not every girl/woman out there is attracted by that stuff, but you constant use of "we", "our" etc. makes it seem that way for the reader.

Also, I would rather like a girlfriend that accepts me in my "doesn't know a lot about computers", "needs two hours to put together a rack" and "getting constant D's in math" ways, instead of expecting me to fulfill gender stereotypes.


@Jibar: *raises glass*

[Bag_of_Holding]

Here's to the real nice guys who never achieve their love, who are broken-hearted yet nonetheless dedicated to the love of his life!
*glug*




Nonexistence for the main part, I'm willing to bet. Followed by light salad.

Still, I don't think you'll be able to get this cynic to believe in any real possibility of romance. If only because I know what kind of person I am.

Words of one afraid of his own heart, may it ever betray his good judgement and reason! A toast to you too, good sir! :smallcool:


While I appreciate your effort to help guys getting girls attracted to them, I don't think that you should generalize your own gender that way. Not every girl/woman out there is attracted by that stuff, but you constant use of "we", "our" etc. makes it seem that way for the reader.

Also, I would rather like a girlfriend that accepts me in my "doesn't know a lot about computers", "needs two hours to put together a rack" and "getting constant D's in math" ways, instead of expecting me to fulfill gender stereotypes.

I appreciate your opinion. I hereby announce/admit that my previous writings on 'making men look attractive to women' highly generalised and thus accountable for unreliability of the methods mentioned.

The reason I really generalised things was because I didn't want to say "it's all depend on their individuality. Respect it and you'll do well", but give some actual advice to people. I am, indeed, fully aware of its limits.


Edit:
It seems I'm getting too much into playing the role of 'relationships counsellor' thing. I'm not in any way qualified to give professional advices on such field of human life (in terms of official qualifications, that is), and will I ever be, I know not (and hope not). I think it's a good time for me to stop before we start to get personal, eh?

Good night, people! (9:23pm here)

[bosssmiley]

I found this article in a university campus newspaper and I agree with every word said:

"This is a tribute to us nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and *****ing about what *******s guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores.

<trimmed for 'blah, blah'>

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all us nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming"

The phrase you are looking for to describe these people is not 'nice guy', it is in fact:

SISSY!
/.|.\
:smallannoyed::smallannoyed::smallannoyed:

(original - more trenchant - turn of phrase "Ah ah ah-ed" by forum censor)


Yeah, I'm serious about that. These 'nice guys' are being used and should stop wasting their time on girls who see them as nothing more than lifestyle accessories. To be harsh about it, you're in the 'friend' mental box and are about 0.0001% likely to become a 'friend with benefits'.

Stop dreaming.
Stop allowing her to waste your time.

The time you have in life is a wasting asset. You don't get it back. There are no do-overs. The most dangerous people in life are those who waste your time. Clue: anyone who loves the smell of their own drama is a time sink. Likewise anyone who asks for "just 5 minutes of your time for a good cause" (this is why I have no problem with punching charity chuggers in the throat :smallwink:). Avoid these people like the plague. You have your own life to live.

The women the OP's article talks about are using 'nice guys' out of an overblown sense of entitlement, and will continue to do so until they are broken of the habit. A simple solution is to become unavailable (http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2006/07/10/a_nerd_in_a_cave.html.). Simply have something to do that's more important than babysitting them through every self-inflicted little psychodrama. The typical woman will either storm off in high dudgeon (if toxic little madams), or be intrigued by what is more interesting to you than they are (if they are real people).

Another solution, develop a better relevance filter (http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html). Learn to tune out when the "blah, blah, blah" starts. Don't be afraid to ask if this conversation is going anywhere. Heck, if you can, try to inculcate a TL;DR catchphrase that'll cut to the executive summary of a situation.


Stacey: "And then you know what happened? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..."
Simon: "And...skip to the end."
-- "Spaced", 1998

You are a man (http://artofmanliness.com/2008/06/12/lessons-from-our-fathers/#more-362): you don't (as a rule) emote, sympathise and go "There there, it'll be all right" when it all goes to crap; you get out there and fix things. :smallcool:

In conclusion: do not try and live your life for others. Do what you enjoy and allow others to derive enjoyment from sharing that with you. If they can't do that, then to Hell with them! They were emotionally needy drama-queens and leeches anyway.


TD;DR

F**k Mr Nice Guy! I have better things to do than babysit. Come see me when you're not full of egotism, drama and "waaaah!" :smallamused:

[xPANCAKEx]

my advice to "nice" guys:

1) get in touch with your inner ******* - it will do you a world of good
2) read the ladder theory (google it), absorb it, learn it, and consider the ramifications this new found knowledge should have on your behaviour and the way you let yourself be treated
3) stop being such a victim. If a girl you like treats you like rubbish, then stand up for yourself
4) follow above 4 steps and watch you life drastically improve

[Player_Zero]

The advice given here seems to be 'stop being nice'...

Hurrrhm...

Is that really good advice? I mean, sure if you do things as indicated in the initial post then you probably have little or no spine, I myself know that I do, but is really telling them to steel their heart and become as lifeless and emotionless as a rock really gonna' help? :smalltongue:

[Tom_Violence]

The advice given here seems to be 'stop being nice'...

Hurrrhm...

Is that really good advice? I mean, sure if you do things as indicated in the initial post then you probably have little or no spine, I myself know that I do, but is really telling them to steel their heart and become as lifeless and emotionless as a rock really gonna' help? :smalltongue:

No one is saying "be a complete and total bastard to everyone you meet". Just don't be such a wallflower. Look at things from the girl's point of view and ask yourself "would I really want to date me?" No one wants to go out with a wimp or a sycophant. Nice conduct can only flesh out a decent personality - it can't take the place of one.

[Player_Zero]

No one is saying "be a complete and total bastard to everyone you meet". Just don't be such a wallflower. Look at things from the girl's point of view and ask yourself "would I really want to date me?" No one wants to go out with a wimp or a sycophant. Nice conduct can only flesh out a decent personality - it can't take the place of one.

So you're saying that it's bad to be overly nice, in that if that is your entirity then noone will like you?

That's still saying 'don't be nice' though, isn't it? What's wrong with being a well-meaning person? Perhaps it's worth not ever getting noticed so that you can at least be morally justified.

[bosssmiley]

The advice given here seems to be 'stop being nice'...

Hurrrhm...

Is that really good advice? I mean, sure if you do things as indicated in the initial post then you probably have little or no spine, I myself know that I do, but is really telling them to steel their heart and become as lifeless and emotionless as a rock really gonna' help? :smalltongue:

Nice != doormat :smallyuk:

I really don't like the idea that the emasculated, drop-everything-for-a-girl-who-isn't-even-your-girl non-threatening boy is being held up as the modern ideal of the nice guy. Chivalry is a good thing; happiness in slavery is not.

I've known some proper nice guys in my time (the sort of people you would want as your best man/godfather of your children), and they are generally not the p***ywhipped pet eunuchs lauded in the OP's article.

I'm not saying be a b@st@rd; I'm saying don't be a walkover. :smallannoyed:

[Tom_Violence]

So you're saying that it's bad to be overly nice, in that if that is your entirity then noone will like you?

That's still saying 'don't be nice' though, isn't it? What's wrong with being a well-meaning person? Perhaps it's worth not ever getting noticed so that you can at least be morally justified.

Basically, yeah. The 'niceness' of someone isn't really atractive in and of itself, though conversely being a total **** can be very unattractive (though that might be something of a tautology, as one could easily define an unattractive person as, at least in part, 'someone that acts like a ****').

As for the last bit, well I don't think one's morals should cause a problem really. Being a self-respecting human being doesn't strike me as immoral. But perhaps the worst trap you can fall into is to sit there being all 'moral' and expecting to get rewarded for it. At best, that's naïve. At worst, its just plain arrogant. You gotta go out and make things happen. If you're moral, good for you! But Mother Theresa never really got that much action.

[Executor]

Let me just clear up a few objections as brought up by SDF and others...

1. I don't act nice because i'm spineless and I don't act nice just to get laid. Getting laid would be good and all, but that's not why i'm nice. I'm nice because it's the right thing to do. You'll soon discover about me that i'm a very old-fashioned person when it comes to these matters. I truly and honestly believe that Chivalry means something. Loyalty, courtesy, munificence, honour, hope, I try to act with nobility of character.

2. Despite my adherence to that standard, I'm still human and when a girl is dating a bunch of jackasses who treat her only slightly better than a penny-prostitute, and at the same time bemoaning the fact that she can't find any guys with descriptions suspiciously similar to my own... well I get bitter. I try not to act bitter though.

I've dealt with all the mindgames, all the manipulation, all the teasing and leading-on, all the illogical, irrational, pointless bull**** that some women concoct. Not because it is expedient but because it is right. I've been that shoulder to cry on, those comforting arms to hold the girl when she needs it, not because i'm her doormat but because I believe in a certain set of values that includes sympathy and understanding. I've beaten off the *******s who can't understand that the girl is saying "no", i've carried the girl home, because they were too drunk to stand and I wouldn't trust their friends with my groceries, much less a girl, i've carried them home and I didn't take advantage even though they wanted to hump everything that moved, not because I'm spineless but because I think that getting a girl who can't even speak clearly much less reason clearly is taking unjust advantage. I could be the arrogant, smirking bastard who's only looking to shoplift some booty, but i'm not because I think men should act better than that. Let me explain my philosophy on women:

The woman was created by God out of Man's rib. Not out of his head to be his master, nor out of his feet to be trampled beneath him, but out of his side to be his equal, under his arm to be protected by him and near his heart to be loved by him.

That is how I act when it comes to women, this philosophy and my own Chivalry. It doesn't pay, I don't get a lot of gratitude or acknowledgement for it, but I keep at it because I believe it's the right thing to do and, in the end, i'll always be a sucker for a girl with a nice smile.

[wadledo]

Well, here's to us guys who do all that without caring about the sex.
*drink*

Cheers.
*drink*

[xPANCAKEx]

read the ladder theory - if its the only thing you do today, it will still be worth while

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

theres a big difference between being a "nice" guy and a good guy

[Trog]

Here here! Without them Trog would never have so many women to choose from.

*sips looks up at everyone staring angrily at him*

What? :smallconfused:

[Player_Zero]

read the ladder theory - if its the only thing you do today, it will still be worth while

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

theres a big difference between being a "nice" guy and a good guy

Heh. Nice. :smallbiggrin:

"Things Women Say They Care About But Do Not: 10%
(this includes intelligence, sense of humor, honesty, sensitivity etc. )"

"Criticism:You're just bitter.
Answer:Maybe I am. But ladder theory made me that way, my bitterness did not make ladder theory. Attack the theory, not the person behind it. And why does everyone always say I'm bitter just because 99.999% of chicks are *****es?"

Heh... That's awesome.

[CannibalHymn]

I admit that the article itself was not written too well to defend itself against those who do not understand the nice guys point of view, but surely you understand what it was getting at? I myself spend much of my time with female friends listening to how horrible their life is, or what time of month it is, or how infuriating men can be, and I put up with it. Why? Not because I am a spineless creep with sexual issues, but because I am a nice person who can put up with the nature of your gender.
The nature of their gender? Huh. That's, uh, not sounding less misogynist. I'd go so far as to say, "Franky, it's insulting." And I'm not even a ladyfolk.


Women don't get this, and they probably never will, but; Not everything is about you, us, and the intercourse in between.We can be your friends, we can listen to you, help you and support you through what must be such a horrible life, and we don't need to get anything back. Why? Because we are nice.
So, if you don't want anything back, where's the problem? The article's all about how nice guys should get somethign back; be paid for their kindness. Most likely, given the article, paid in sex.


We don't get the girl, we don't get to be the bad boy or the cool one, we don't get to be noticed. All we want is to be your friends.
I'd argue if they trust you enough to talk to you about everything and you're the person they choose to call when something goes wrong, you probably are their friend.

[WalkingTarget]

[truth]

Being "nice" shouldn't be a means to an end, it's a way to approach all of one's interpersonal relationships.

Being an ass might get more attention, but if I were to act like one just to get noticed I wouldn't be acting like me. If that means that I have trouble finding anybody who appreciates me for who I am, that's my problem to deal with, but it's no reason for angst. Before you find somebody else to spend a life with you've got to be able to live with yourself.

[Tom_Violence]

2. Despite my adherence to that standard, I'm still human and when a girl is dating a bunch of jackasses who treat her only slightly better than a penny-prostitute, and at the same time bemoaning the fact that she can't find any guys with descriptions suspiciously similar to my own... well I get bitter. I try not to act bitter though.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote there, but this bit stood out to me. I guess you gotta ask yourself why the girl doesn't go for you. My suggestion would be that, although yes she does want all those 'nice' qualities in a guy, maybe she also wants something else, and maybe she wants that something else more. So mayhaps you gotta work out what that thing that really does it for her is, and show her you've got it, and some.

My hat goes off to you if you're really like what you wrote. One of my initial reactions was "these people hardly seem worth your time", so I find it very admirable that your brain doesn't seem to work that way. Hard work, and not something I'd ever recommend to anyone, but admirable nonetheless.:smallsmile:

[Syka]

I'm with SDF.

Vuzz, you CAN be the good guy and still get noticed. My boyfriend is one of the good guys. But guess what? He's also confident and comfortable with himself. He's not the most outgoing guy or anything, but you can tell he is comfortable with who he is. THAT is what attracts me, the bearing, how they hold themselves. I do not like bad boys or anything. I had two bad relationships, but neither guy acted the same, I was not dating the same guy over and over again, and they did not show this side until well after I'd been dating them. My guy is the type who sings me songs randomly that remind him of me, that regularly comes to visit me even though it meant shelling out 80 bucks for a hotel room, that surprises me with stuff, who'll randomly dance with me, and who named his armies in games in honor of some thing (dorky, but, well, look at the site I'm on :P Heh). He is a good guy, and he as accepted who he is.

The first one I stayed with because I thought I could help (the end to that one is a long story). The second one I dropped because I learned my lesson. I was not ignoring my friends, I just wasn't attracted to them. Well, at first I'd been attracted to one of them but that faded as we got older and I figured out we'd never work (not too mention, thought he didn't like me, which I later found out he did kind of at one point). The others? Attraction just wasn't there. Not too mention, I never complained to them about my relationships. The only people hearing about that was family, my best friend (whose gay) and a friend I met on here.

But no, we're not all ignoring you. Did you maybe think attraction wasn't there? Just because you ACT like what you think we want, doesn't mean there is attraction. Confidence does not equal arrogance or being mean. Confidence means being comfortable AS YOU ARE.

Cheer,
Syka

[bosssmiley]

^ Aw crap! They're onto us! :smalleek:

*drops smoke grenades*

*PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST*

[Quincunx]

In bed as in life, the guy who lies back and waits for things to happen is usually disappointed.

[reorith]

don't worry nice guys, according to clerks 2, you'll come out on top, you just have to wait. also, lotr fanboys will puke so its win win.

[Ziren]

I appreciate your opinion. I hereby announce/admit that my previous writings on 'making men look attractive to women' highly generalised and thus accountable for unreliability of the methods mentioned.

The reason I really generalised things was because I didn't want to say "it's all depend on their individuality. Respect it and you'll do well", but give some actual advice to people. I am, indeed, fully aware of its limits.
[/QUOTE]

I thought so. But you being aware of the limits doesn't mean that the reader is. And the problem at hand is, that your initial post was phrased in a way that didn't make it possible to read "there are girls who feel different about this" into it. You probably think that everyone is supposed to know about this, but seriously, common sense isn't as common as the name wants you to believe.



In other news, CannibalHymn is now my hero.

[Tom_Violence]

I thought so. But you being aware of the limits doesn't mean that the reader is. And the problem at hand is, that your initial post was phrased in a way that didn't make it possible to read "there are girls who feel different about this" into it. You probably think that everyone is supposed to know about this, but seriously, common sense isn't as common as the name wants you to believe.



In other news, CannibalHymn is now my hero.

Wait, there are actually people out there that would read what she wrote and think "Really? Cool. I'm so glad all girls think exactly the same way on matters such as these!" ??

If so, the problems here may be bigger than I first thought!

[SurlySeraph]

Here's to the real nice guys who never achieve their love, who are broken-hearted yet nonetheless dedicated to the love of his life!
*glug*

That'd be me. *drinks*

I'm a pretty nice guy, and I've never had a girlfriend in my life. But that's not because women are evil and manipulative, it's because I'm ugly. And uncharismatic. And have negative self-confidence. And am terrible at expressing my emotions. And cannot make myself be open about my attraction to anyone I like. And am incredibly inhibited and boring. And...

*drinks*

Damn it, why are all women attracted to attractive traits? It's not fair! :smallwink:

[Ziren]

Wait, there are actually people out there that would read what she wrote and think "Really? Cool. I'm so glad all girls think exactly the same way on matters such as these!" ??

If so, the problems here may be bigger than I first thought!

Look at the sale numbers for all those "Men are..., women are..."-books. While most people admit that there are exceptions to the rule, they usually don't see them as a real man/woman. Anything that doesn't fit the role model is more often than not perceived as a perversion to the "natural" way of things. They are said to be confused and must be lead to the position dedicated to them by their "nature" in order to be happy, get laid and/or have a good relationship. Of course this is all a big pile of steaming turd, but most people like to easily classify other people (or even themselves) in groups. Or where do you think racism, sexism and every other form of intolerance originates from?


EDIT: And quite frankly, Executor, with his views on chivalry and seemingly stoneset ideas on gendered duty, falls right into that category.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Most of what I have thought of to say has already been said, but assuming we are talking about truly nice guys, not just guys trying to get laid without being assertive/aggressive, I would give this advice (not that I'm an expert, just that it worked for me):

Don't hope for social success at bars and frat parties. Those environments were not designed with nice-guy success in mind. That's like a dolphin trying to win a footrace when there's a perfectly good swimming contest right next door. OK, that was a weird analogy, but you get what I mean.

Especially if you don't enjoy bars and frat parties... because you're only going to meet women there who enjoy or are pretending to enjoy something that you don't, and if you're there you'll either be a wet blanket or you'll be pretending to enjoy something that you're not.

Rather, do the social activities that you enjoy (though I would recommend face-to-face interaction rather than internet), and that way you can be yourself and feel more comfortable and assertive, and you'll also get to know women who are enthusiastic about the same things as you, instead of it being a one-sided relationship which will never really get going.

I went to parties and bars a few times and personally (not judging anyone else here, just me) found them dreadfully boring and superficial. Not really interested in participating, I found myself a wallflower, even though I'm not really that shy or unassertive.
Then I found that in other social activities, which were not focused solely on the drinking-ogling-groping progression, I flourished. I was assertive and comfortable and genuine rather than putting on a show, and the discussions I had with people were two-sided and equitable, both people giving and taking, not just a nice guy propping up a girl's self-esteem when she lets other people trample on it. And that seems to me to be key to any sort of "nice"-type romance, rather than just "hook-ups." A few examples:

-study groups
-intramural sports
-music groups
-religious groups
-volunteer activities
-extracurriculars of any type (they always need more dudes in Ballroom Dance Club)

It takes a lot more work to be involved in groups like these once you're out of school and into the work force, but they are still there.

End result: I found a girl that I think is cool, who also thinks that I am cool. It took a while, but it was very much worth it, and in the meantime I was doing things I enjoyed rather than wasting my time being miserable and feeling like a loser while trying to find romance in the wrong environments.

There were lots of girls at the frat parties who would have considered me to be "nice," but I doubt they would have considered me "cool." And from the other standpoint, while I may have considered them to be nice and good-looking (and of course expert flirts), if they are consistently getting themselves in trouble by acting irresponsibly around the jerks, that's not a very "cool" girl to me. And from what I have heard, "You can't change people." So I would have been wasting my time continuing to damage my hearing at the parties.

[Executor]

And quite frankly, Executor, with his views on chivalry and seemingly stoneset ideas on gendered duty, falls right into that category.

Seemingly being the operative word in that sentence :smallwink:

I've met women who were tough as nails and i've met women who were anything but. I've met men who were blusteringly emotional sponges and i've met men who were anything but. Of course there is many variations in genders and their roles. At the same time, I still think that there should be a certain way that men act around the fairer sex. A certain standard that should be upheld by men, whether you're a brutally cynical rationalist or an emotional hurricane. I can't speak on how women should act, as i'm not one, I can only say that I expect a certain level of honourable conduct from all men, regardless of their personal traits.

[Jae]

I missed this at first..

I'm sure there are nice girls. But I think that there are far less of them than these stereotypical nice guys. Among my own female friends, I can't think of anyone like that. However, I'm sure that's the whole point of the "nice person." They don't get noticed.
I find this pretty funny because when I think to all your female friends, I think most of them fall into that exact category.
Nice girls who are never rude and wait on a guy who blows them off EVERY TIME and they're still not mean to them. I think there are more of them. in fact, weve talked about it on several occasions. These girls are always clear, never wishy-washy, never did anything to be blown off..but I think the fact that they stay this nice person they're left in the dark. Why would anybody need to be nice back if somebodys always going to be around?? (something im only finally starting to understand, actually...)

Boo, tytyty. You're my hero

[Player_Zero]

So... Anyone else sick of 'here's what you do' posts? I hereby call on the rest of us cynic and pessismists to point out that the real nice guys, of which I am quite sure I am not one, get shat on all the time anyway, regardless of confident and assertive they are.

Oh, and how everyone in this thread bar a few have considered themselves 'nice' people or have at least generously hinted at it believing that it was the case. Everyone thinks they're a freaking saint, huh?

...Urgh... Needs more escapism... Much more...

[potatocubed]

Regarding the original article: utter tripe. A real nice guy - as in, one who really cared about the friend in question - would do none of those things. When his friend started acting like that he would say:

"I mean this in the nicest possible way, but get your bloody act together."

Seriously. What sort of decent human being aids and abets such awful behaviour?

[CannibalHymn]

Well, I think most people commenting find themselves to be similar to those the article describes as nice, hence why they comiserate together around its poorly-written altar of self-pity.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

I admit I'm prone to "Here's What You Do" posts (hard to resist a captive audience), and perhaps my post would have been more appropriate in one of the threads where people are actually looking for advice from random strangers, if the original poster wasn't really looking for that sort of feedback in this thread. And perhaps Player_Zero is right that I shouldn't presume that I'm a nice guy, but I do at least try to be nice, which I think should count for something.

I think PotatoCubed is exactly right that a nice guy should not be an enabler of self-destructive behavior in his friends, though I would say some decent human beings might do so mistakenly.

And now a word from Eleanor Roosevelt:

No one can make you feel inferior without your permission.

Again, perhaps I'm in the wrong thread.

[Bronathair]

Hear hear...

and technically this is my first post, glad it could be in this thread

[Collin152]

Aye, a toast!
May all your futures be pleasent ones, not like our present ones, drink l'chaim, to life!

[EvilElitest]

ok, now i'm confused. Why do always seem to play the role of hte nice guy, when i am such a not nice person? Because i find myself doing all of those things in the article, and yet i have no alterer motive of getting laid. Weird world
from
EE

[BizzaroStormy]

*snip*

*raises drink, knocking over several empty bottles of Jack.*

You'd be suprised at how many of us there actually are. So many things are wrong with the world. People can't seem to stop fighting despite the fact that they're after the same thing. Men and women are dying for million year-old dead animals. And one of the most powerful nations in the world currently has a partially-trained chimpanzee running it.

Excluding the booze I've experience a lot of what you listed. Even doing my best to hold two of my friends' relationship together only to have one of them bite my head off and the other one completely ignore me.

[de-trick]

I'm a sucker for a girl with a pretty smile and beautiful eyes. Then again anyone who needs my help guy or girl I try and help out. But I rather be who I am than a pig or a jerk. I dont think I have a mean bone in my body. And well thats my only real problem I can get picked on but dont do anything about it.

[deepsear]

Hey, I have a shortened version of the toast, with less controversy.

Here's to all the guys who treat women with respect, are some of their best friends, and who genuinely care about making them happy, but still can't win them over.



And to include you ladies too,

Here's to all the girls who like us for ourselves, not what we look like or who we can beat up. You guys rock! :smallbiggrin:

[Catch]

This article is troubling to me. It lauds "doormat" behaviors while whitewashing self-confidence, independence and the ability to say "no" as tools of the sleezy jerks who are apparently stealing all the women, nevermind that it's possible to treat women well and still have a backbone. Men don't have to be polarized as single-minded sex-driven wolves or wishy-washy "Oh sure I'll hold your purse" girlfriends.

I guess I'm still a little bit amazed every time I read one of these, mostly because all the "nice" guys haven't figured it out. Women want a challenge, they want mystery, tension, drama and they want someone who won't give them everything they ask for without a moment's notice. The men that succeed are the ones that tease them, that won't call back right away, the ones that are busy and don't answer all their questions. They want to be kept guessing, they want men who make them flustered and nervous, eager and dreaming, and always, always wondering.

That's the spark, friends. Women want what from men what they can't have. Simply put, women don't date "nice" guys because there's nothing to gain. You've already given it all away.

[Warpfire]

This thread is crap.

If women love confident jerks so much, why don't I get laid more often?

[Collin152]

This thread is crap.

If women love confident jerks so much, why don't I get laid more often?

Clearly because you're gay.

[NinjaHippy]

...here's to the guys who are willing to have female friends without wanting to have sex with them?

Seriously, what is it with our culture and sex? So much social pressure is put on "doing it," when really, relationships would get on a lot better if the central issue wasn't how much sack-time the various participants are getting. Perhaps, since I'm still a virgin, I'm biased. But seriously, sex isn't the be-all and end-all of inter-gender human relationships. Or even romantic relationships. Does anyone else get the impression that there'd be a lot less failed romances in the world if people put their focus on the emotional/mental/spiritual sides of their relationships, and not the physical side?

Sorry, I'm ranting, I realize. Partially because it's late; partially because I just read the Ladder Theory (mentioned elsewhere in this thread- page 2, I believe?) and couldn't disagree with it more- at least, as far as personal experience is concerned (obviously I can't speak for every male on the planet, just me and the ones I happen to know personally).

Anyway, if you're hanging around girls, being an emotional doormat, etc. with the ultimate intention of getting nookie, you're probably misguided. If the only reason you're friends with girls is because you hope they'll eventually ask you out, you're probably wasting your time. If, however, you have platonic female friends with whom you can talk to and share stuff, more power to you. I've found that my platonic friendships with girls are often a lot stronger than my friendships with other guys, simply because I feel like I can share a lot more of my feelings with girls without fear of coming up against a wall of unemotionality.

[/rant]

Edit:
This thread is crap.

If women love confident jerks so much, why don't I get laid more often?


Bahahaha. That made my day.

[Warpfire]

Clearly because you're gay.

I suppose those weren't just particularly masculine women I was hitting on, after all.

[Cobra_Ikari]

This thread is crap.

If women love confident jerks so much, why don't I get laid more often?

*snuggles*

...I missed you. When did you get back? >.<

...also, it's clearly because you don't wear enough black leather. >.>

[Flickerdart]

Seriously, what is it with our culture and sex? So much social pressure is put on "doing it," .
The people with low sex drives bred less, so their lines died out. Those with high sex drives passed their high sex drive genes onto their more numerous offspring. It's a vicious cycle.

Really, people with low sex drives, get out there and make some babies. Go do it now.

[BizzaroStormy]

But babies suck, that why the condom was invented as well as the birth control pill, birth control shot, Vasectomies ans abortion. We have all these and yet our population continues grow wildly. Scientists have been coming up with ways to prevent infants for years and still be able to have sex and yet it doesnt seem to be working enough.

[BooTheHamster]

Boo, tytyty. You're my hero

Well, what can I say? I'm just amazing like that. :smallcool:

[SDF]

I had no idea my post would be so divisive. But I stand by it and think I need to clarify some points.

A quick aside...


I find cute guys irresistable. They're not an object of a crush though; my crush was always on teachers. Now I'm past the age where I'd have any more chemicals left to trigger a crush, I'm afraid.

I'll define my version of cute guys: here's a guy who does science degree (or medicine or whatever smart guys study) and he's really into studying. He won't be chasing other girls around and he'll be just as happy left alone in a lab as he'd be at my place having lunch. Someone independant. Someone... resembles a cat in behaviour, I guess- independant yet not totally chaotic or rebellious. A geek cat, if you get my gist.

I can't say thats a prevailing sentiment. For me conversations in that vein go like this:

GIRL: So what do you do all day?
SDF: Well I'm working on my biochem/molecular/premed degree and work in a biochem lab so that takes up most of my time.
GIRL: Oh really, what do you do in the lab?
SDF: Well I've been working on doing a bioluminescense on V. Harveyi knock out biofilms.
GIRL: Oh... that's... interesting... <_<
SDF: ...
GIRL: ...
SDF: So what kind of music do you like?
GIRL: *Talks about music*

See, you have to be quick and change the subject or the conversation is lost. :P I've had a lot of experience with this and actually, that is exactly what I change the conversation to when I don't want to talk to someone.


Not has to endure- does endure because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do.
Heh. Story of my life. Not that I'm bitter. Of course not.:smallannoyed:

Most of my problem with the article was how the, "nice guy" was portrayed. Sitting there and listening to a girls problems all day is fine, whatever, but doing that does not make you a nice guy. And, if her problems are abusive boyfriends and getting trashed and needing a ride that doesn't even make you a good friend (it definitely doesn't make her a good friend either) It makes you a very passive friend. A nice guy, and a good friend will help her. Not help her by enabling her when she is drunk with rides and a shoulder to cry on, or help her start counter rumors about people you don't even know. But, a good friend will tell her straight to stop that kind of behavior because it isn't good for you, and it certainly isn't good for her. To be nice you should be active in the friendship instead of sitting there listening, and enduring the friendship.


Oooooh, bitter much?

I don't think you get the point. Guys like me don't get noticed because we are nice, not because we are "Creeps with no backbone". Its insulting to be quite frank.

Tell me that you've never met a shy, timid, nice boy who listens to your problems without complaining. And if you can't, tell me you didn't just love it.
I admit that the article itself was not written too well to defend itself against those who do not understand the nice guys point of view, but surely you understand what it was getting at? I myself spend much of my time with female friends listening to how horrible their life is, or what time of month it is, or how infuriating men can be, and I put up with it. Why? Not because I am a spineless creep with sexual issues, but because I am a nice person who can put up with the nature of your gender. Women don't get this, and they probably never will, but; Not everything is about you, us, and the intercourse in between.We can be your friends, we can listen to you, help you and support you through what must be such a horrible life, and we don't need to get anything back. Why? Because we are nice.

We don't get the girl, we don't get to be the bad boy or the cool one, we don't get to be noticed. All we want is to be your friends.

I'm not sure what you mean when you call me bitter. I thought the article sounded bitter when it complained about how acting that way didn't get you laid, but I don't have anything to be bitter toward or about.

The problem here is you identify yourself as the, "nice guy" and therefore take my post as a personal attack. It is not. A lot of what this thread has turned into is the question, "What is a nice guy anyhow? What does it mean to be a nice guy?" I think many of us here would identify (or would like to think of) ourselves as a nice person. There isn't just a nice guy who will sit there and listen to all the moaning of another person while they wombat up their lives, and an awful person who takes advantage of these other people, then the spectrum in between. I would never take advantage of another person on alcohol or be abusive to them, but at the same time if someone constantly complains about their SO and other such inane things I would tell them to get over themselves. (In fact I've done that with some of my less mature friends, or friends acting less mature) That has nothing to do with being nice for me. To me being the, "nice guy" is doing the things that are best for others and myself, and not what is in that article.

[Ziren]

I've met women who were tough as nails and i've met women who were anything but. I've met men who were blusteringly emotional sponges and i've met men who were anything but. Of course there is many variations in genders and their roles. At the same time, I still think that there should be a certain way that men act around the fairer sex. A certain standard that should be upheld by men, whether you're a brutally cynical rationalist or an emotional hurricane. I can't speak on how women should act, as i'm not one, I can only say that I expect a certain level of honourable conduct from all men, regardless of their personal traits.

And that's were we disagree. I don't think people should be treated different just because of their gender. I hold open doors for people when it seems appropriate (i.e. if I would let the door go, it would slam right into that persons face). Now give me a single reason why you should treat women in a special way that doesn't come down to tradition or sexist ideas (You're rib-comment has crossed that line by a couple of miles, by the way).

[SurlySeraph]

And that's were we disagree. I don't think people should be treated different just because of their gender. I hold open doors for people when it seems appropriate (i.e. if I would let the door go, it would slam right into that persons face). Now give me a single reason why you should treat women in a special way that doesn't come down to tradition or sexist ideas (You're rib-comment has crossed that line by a couple of miles, by the way).

Because our culture encourages us to? Because it's kind to? Because it makes them happy?

[Ziren]

Because our culture encourages us to?

Read: Tradition.


Because it's kind to?

So it's more kind to open a door for a woman than for a man?


Because it makes them happy?

I know quite a few girls who are annoyed by this "chivalrous" behaviour.
And even if that was generaly true, how would women deserve to be made happy in that way when men aren't?

[BooTheHamster]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior. Honestly, here I am trying to be nice, and there they go calling me a chauvinistic pig. I want to know how holding a door open for someone automatically means that I think they cant do it themselves. It's just an act of courtesy, and I consider it disrespectful to ME to have it be considered a show of malicious or degrading sentiment.

As for why we should treat women a special way: economic reasons. :smallwink:

[NinjaHippy]

The argument I've heard (from my female friends) against "chivalrous" behavior like holding doors open, etc, is that it implies that girls need the extra help while guys don't, and thus sets up a hierarchy where guys are at the top, helping out women, while women sit around and be helped. Obviously, that's not what we as guys intend the action to mean, but actions like that contribute to the idea of a hierarchy between the sexes (I'm a sociology minor at a pretty progressive school, so I get to hear a lot about the social definition of gender and sexism and stuff).

Mind you, I still hold the door open for girls; I just hold the door open for guys as well.

[Warpfire]

*snuggles*

...I missed you. When did you get back? >.<

...also, it's clearly because you don't wear enough black leather. >.>

I've been lurking for a bit. This thread irritated me, so I felt the need to make a sarcastic comment.

Also, do I know you? :smalltongue:

I like how he changed it to 'get their dues' after everyone pointed out how being 'nice' for sex isn't really nice.

[Ziren]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

Well, the girls I know have every right to be annoyed by that. Holding the door open for the girls and then let it slam right into the face of the guy who was following them isn't a nice behaviour (of course the guy was even more pissed off, but that's beside the point). Of course that wasn't the first inappropriate action by that guy, but I don't want to bore you with details.



Mind you, I still hold the door open for girls; I just hold the door open for guys as well.

As I said, I do that as well. It's not like not being chivalrous means being as rude to girls as you are to guys, but more like being as nice to the guys as you are to the girls.

[Jae]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.
I get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

Seriously. I once held the door open for a guy and he walked in front of me, and then held the door open for me, with the most shocked look upon his face. I think maybe I insulted his manhood or something with that instant need to put himself in the position of holding the door?? It made me laugh, actually, which probably wasnt helpful...

it all goes both ways, though.

[Player_Zero]

I get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior and simultaneously get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

[Oregano]

@Jae: He must have been a bit insecure about his manhood to get offended by something so trivial.

I hold doors open for people all the time, just out of courtesy. I tend to hold for girls more than guys though, but that's because if I hold it for any of my guy friends we end up arguing about who should go through first saying daft things like "age before beauty".

I've been told I'm a nice guy, but I think of myself more as Passive Aggressive and Manipulative; nobody seems to see it. I also think nice guys(even if I am one) have the right to complain about not being laid because plenty of nice guys get laid, they just happen to have other prominent aspects which I think many "nice guys" don't because they're too busy with other people's stuff all the time.

[Tom_Violence]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior and simultaneously get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

And I get annoyed by people who make the really obvious jokes before I have a chance to! :smallmad:

[Syka]

I only get annoyed by chivalrous behavior when it implies that I can't do it.

Holding the door because you got there first? Awesome.

Running so that you can get to the door before I do to hold it open for me? Not awesome, annoying in fact.

Taking the door from me and telling me to go through it when I was holding it for you? Also not awesome.

My boyfriend regularly opens doors for me, because he normally gets there first. When I get there first, I open them. :) I can do stuff on my own ya know. ;) And it was nice when he offered to hold my hand while walking across gravel in heels. >> That was difficult.

Cheers,
Syka

[BooTheHamster]

What kind of guy would get annoyed by a girl opening the door for him? It's just common courtesy to spare someone a door to the face, or the unnecessary effort of opening it themselves, when, with much less energy used, someone else can simply keep it from closing in the first place.

It's like ... well, holding the door for someone. :smallconfused:

[CannibalHymn]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior and simultaneously get annoyed by guys who get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior.

I get annoyed by word repetition, but you don't see me making annoying posts about what annoys me all the time, because I understand they annoy other people, and annoying someone while complaining about being annoying only makes you more annoying than the first person who annoyed you.

[Cobra_Ikari]

...I can't tell if Cannibal is being serious or not. :smallfrown:

Syka, is it annoying if I habitually get a little ahead of a group of friends when we approach doors so I can hold it for them, regardless of the genders of the group?

...it probably is annoying when I try to take the door from actual doormen, but that's because I know how much my family can linger and don't want them to have to do all that just because we're crazy. >.<

[Ponce]

OP: Read over your post. A lot of what this hypothetical person does to be a "nice guy" perpetuates the very situation you're complaining about. If you think someone is in a relationship with a "chump and a jerk" then you should TELL them so, not reassure them that its going to be alright. Use tact, mind, but by trying to shield them you are merely reassuring the person that this kind of thing is ok, which will only contribute to them continuing to form bad relationships.

Being a doormat is NOT a good personality trait. Someone who wants their partner to be a doormat is not the kind of person you want to have an emotional investment in. If you're willing to drop everything to help someone with something - no matter how trivial, immature or unwise that something is - that makes you a doormat.

If you want a relationship, then act like a human being, not some kind of deranged helper-bot.

[Nychta]

...I can't tell if Cannibal is being serious or not. :smallfrown:

Syka, is it annoying if I habitually get a little ahead of a group of friends when we approach doors so I can hold it for them, regardless of the genders of the group?

...it probably is annoying when I try to take the door from actual doormen, but that's because I know how much my family can linger and don't want them to have to do all that just because we're crazy. >.<

I feel so sorry for nice doormen who just hold the door for my extended family, who are slow.

And yes. Nice guys are nice, in my opinion.

[Solo]

I get annoyed by girls who get annoyed by chivalrous behavior. Honestly, here I am trying to be nice, and there they go calling me a chauvinistic pig. I want to know how holding a door open for someone automatically means that I think they cant do it themselves. It's just an act of courtesy, and I consider it disrespectful to ME to have it be considered a show of malicious or degrading sentiment.


The proper way to deal with those kinds of women is to slam the door in their face.

Then, when they come through, open up a can of mad kung fu skillz on them.

I would do it to any guy that disrespected me in such a fashion. Logically, therefore, I should not hold back against women who do so, for that would be sexism, and sexism is unethical and immoral.

As for me, I am neither a nice guy, nor do I fail to remind people to give me my dues.

That being said, good luck.

[reorith]

i found a tribute to nice girls, but it was tl;dr+tl;dc and i will refrain from posting it.

[Ziren]

Looking at the other posts in this thread I think we have a different understanding of the word "chivalrous". I was always under the impression that the word meant "being especially nice (or, in extreme examples, pushy) to women for the sole reason that they are female". Well, or wanting to get in their pants, but those to are more often related than not.

I'm probably completely wrong about this, but keep in mind that I was using the word with that definition in my head, when I was posting earlier.

[dungeon_munky]

Here's one for all the guys out there who are the friends of girls and expect nothing but friendship in return *drinks*

Seriously guys. When you're nice to someone, you shouldnt expect anything but them being nice to you back. Nice guys dont finish last, they finish with nice girls. I have friends who are girls, and I listen to their problems and help them when they need it, and they do the same for me. We also do friend things like friends do. That's part of being friends.

My girlfriend is one of my best friends who I will share anything with. I would give the world for her, if she ever asked it, and I know she'd do the same.
I'm sorry, I tend to gush about her. Excuse me. :)

Basically the way I see it, you're looking for romance in the wrong place. I'm sure girls have this problem too, they just dont complain about it.
"I'm a nice girl, and I listen to all this guy's problems but he doesnt notice me. He's always complaining about why girls dont notice him even though he's such a nice guy, when I've been here all along." take a step back and see if there is anyone like this in your life, and you havent noticed because you're too wound up in your own misery to actually pay them any attention.

[Jagg]

This article is troubling to me. It lauds "doormat" behaviors while whitewashing self-confidence, independence and the ability to say "no" as tools of the sleezy jerks who are apparently stealing all the women, nevermind that it's possible to treat women well and still have a backbone. Men don't have to be polarized as single-minded sex-driven wolves or wishy-washy "Oh sure I'll hold your purse" girlfriends.

I guess I'm still a little bit amazed every time I read one of these, mostly because all the "nice" guys haven't figured it out. Women want a challenge, they want mystery, tension, drama and they want someone who won't give them everything they ask for without a moment's notice. The men that succeed are the ones that tease them, that won't call back right away, the ones that are busy and don't answer all their questions. They want to be kept guessing, they want men who make them flustered and nervous, eager and dreaming, and always, always wondering.

That's the spark, friends. Women want what from men what they can't have. Simply put, women don't date "nice" guys because there's nothing to gain. You've already given it all away.


*Shakes head* Groans and tries to resist temptation....fails miserably.

Catch...um I want to be nice...

Princess, what you've said above is what YOU want.

To me it smacks of game playing tendencies and is...fake...dishonest...and manipulative. Thanks for reinforcing that steryotype that some men have that women are manipulative and want jerks who treat them badly. Nice guys are none of these things.

Here's what you said...

Women want a challenge, they want mystery, tension, drama and they want someone who won't give them everything they ask for without a moment's notice. The men that succeed are the ones that tease them, that won't call back right away, the ones that are busy and don't answer all their questions. They want to be kept guessing, they want men who make them flustered and nervous, eager and dreaming, and always, always wondering.

Here's what I heard...

You want me to treat you mean to keep you keen....

Ok. I can be mean if you want me to...Grow up

[Raider]

*applaudes nice guys*

You may have the remaining mates after I'm done with the female population

[Collin152]

*applaudes nice guys*

You may have the remaining mates after I'm done with the female population

I get the other nice guys?
Kickass, that's my type.

[Zarrexaij]

ITT: Push-over, obsessive, whiney, hypocritical guys who are no better than their "*******" cousins. Thus, it has spawned quite a cicle-jerk of "nice guys" that are apparently a-ok with the inherent unamusing misogyny of the OP's copypasta.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, a very non-stereotypical 18 year old female's opinion on "the nice guy:"

"Nice guy" (notice the quotation marks) is just another word for the obsessive, closet-psycho nerd that wonders why he can't get any where with women because he has no spine. When something goes wrong in his eyes, he often responds in an irrational manner that makes hormonal women look sane. Case in point, I have dated two "nice guys" in the past. Needless to say, our dating period was very short. The moment that something went wrong, both completely uncorked. One called me an "unstable bitch" because I did not call him back after he called ONCE. He then decided to stalk me for a period of a month. I later learned he was dating someone while we were dating. We dated for only a few period of days. We were good friends for about a year and I had no clue that he was such a closet mess.

The other guy is a similar story. I had a feeling he was that type of guy, but, yeah. Stupid me. The second one flipped out when I chewed him out during a DnD game. He then proceeded to not talk to me. This was in November. He has never even told me what the hell I did to deserve the silent treatment. I should have known when he started asking very strange questions that he had no business asking.

"Nice guy's" completely lack a spine and consider their selfish obsession of their female friends "nice." There's nothing nice about it. You are no different from any other man by wanting nothing but to secretly get in her pants. You are not by nature nice; in fact, when it comes down to it, you're completely the opposite. The very fact you let people run you over lends even more to the fact you are sub-human and deserve to be treated as such.

If you ever want to get a date, DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE "NICE GUYS." Instead, be nice because it is the proper thing to do, not because you want into that girl's pants. Grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourself. if there's a girl you like, let her know how you feel, rejection isn't the end of the world. And furthermore, try to hold onto a little bit of sanity, kthnx?

I'm not saying there's something wrong with being a truly nice guy, it's just that "nice guy" has a completely different connotation than you think. The moment someone decribes themself as a nice guy, I can't help but cringe and wonder if they really mean that or they're absolutely clueless what that phrase means to chicks and mature guys.

[Executor]

Zarrexaij: I'm just a chivalrous, courteous, nice kind of guy, not a "nice guy". I'm not nice because I lack the spine to have any other personality trait and i'm not nice because I think it will get me the booty... i'm nice because that's the right thing to do and I think that's the right way to treat a fine lady. Though it seems supremely selfish, I'll quote myself here with the definition of a nice guy who isn't a "nice guy"



I don't act nice because i'm spineless and I don't act nice just to get laid. Getting laid would be good and all, but that's not why i'm nice. I'm nice because it's the right thing to do. You'll soon discover about me that i'm a very old-fashioned person when it comes to these matters. I truly and honestly believe that Chivalry means something. Loyalty, courtesy, munificence, honour, hope, I try to act with nobility of character.

Despite my adherence to that standard, I'm still human and when a girl is dating a bunch of jackasses who treat her only slightly better than a penny-prostitute, and at the same time bemoaning the fact that she can't find any guys with descriptions suspiciously similar to my own... well I get bitter. I try not to act bitter though.

I've dealt with all the mindgames, all the manipulation, all the teasing and leading-on, all the illogical, irrational, pointless bull**** that some women concoct. Not because it is expedient but because it is right. I've been that shoulder to cry on, those comforting arms to hold the girl when she needs it, not because i'm her doormat but because I believe in a certain set of values that includes sympathy and understanding. I've beaten off the *******s who can't understand that the girl is saying "no", i've carried the girl home, because they were too drunk to stand and I wouldn't trust their friends with my groceries, much less a girl, i've carried them home and I didn't take advantage even though they wanted to hump everything that moved, not because I'm spineless but because I think that getting a girl who can't even speak clearly much less reason clearly is taking unjust advantage. I could be the arrogant, smirking bastard who's only looking to shoplift some booty, but i'm not because I think men should act better than that. Let me explain my philosophy on women:

The woman was created by God out of Man's rib. Not out of his head to be his master, nor out of his feet to be trampled beneath him, but out of his side to be his equal, under his arm to be protected by him and near his heart to be loved by him.

That is how I act when it comes to women, this philosophy and my own Chivalry. It doesn't pay, I don't get a lot of gratitude or acknowledgement for it, but I keep at it because I believe it's the right thing to do and, in the end, i'll always be a sucker for a girl with a nice smile.


I also have to apologize for that article, looking back on it and my own state of mind when I read it. I had just dealt with a messy break-up, I felt like I was going nowhere fast, I was honestly bitter and misogynistic after five messy break ups in a row involving cheating women. At yet despite all that I was painfully aware that I really was a sucker for a girl with a nice smile because I could never say no to them for anything. Yeah, bad choice of article :(

[Pyrian]

I'm not saying there's something wrong with being a truly nice guy, it's just that "nice guy" has a completely different connotation than you think.Okay, you dated a couple of crazies, we all (well, most of us) have been there. Yeah, they were disguised as "nice guys"; I've seen the phenomenon, too. But don't take it out on every guy who tries to be helpful, cooperative, and/or do the right thing.


The moment someone decribes themself as a nice guy, I can't help but cringe and wonder if they really mean that or they're absolutely clueless what that phrase means to chicks and mature guys.Stereotyping a little, here? :smallconfused:

[Jagg]

ITT: Push-over, obsessive, whiney, hypocritical guys who are no better than their "*******" cousins. Thus, it has spawned quite a cicle-jerk of "nice guys" that are apparently a-ok with the inherent unamusing misogyny of the OP's copypasta.


*claps* (although I did find the original post amusing in a 'sad' kinda way).

Why sad? Because I think every guy can relate in some way to the point of it. Who hasn't wondered why some seemingly nice, smart, attractive girls want to be treated badly?



Now that I've gotten that off my chest, a very non-stereotypical 18 year old female's opinion on "the nice guy:"

"Nice guy" (notice the quotation marks) is just another word for the obsessive, closet-psycho nerd that wonders why he can't get any where with women because he has no spine. When something goes wrong in his eyes, he often responds in an irrational manner that makes hormonal women look sane. Case in point, I have dated two "nice guys" in the past. Needless to say, our dating period was very short. The moment that something went wrong, both completely uncorked. One called me an "unstable bitch" because I did not call him back after he called ONCE. He then decided to stalk me for a period of a month. I later learned he was dating someone while we were dating. We dated for only a few period of days. We were good friends for about a year and I had no clue that he was such a closet mess.

The other guy is a similar story. I had a feeling he was that type of guy, but, yeah. Stupid me. The second one flipped out when I chewed him out during a DnD game. He then proceeded to not talk to me. This was in November. He has never even told me what the hell I did to deserve the silent treatment. I should have known when he started asking very strange questions that he had no business asking.

"Nice guy's" completely lack a spine and consider their selfish obsession of their female friends "nice." There's nothing nice about it. You are no different from any other man by wanting nothing but to secretly get in her pants. You are not by nature nice; in fact, when it comes down to it, you're completely the opposite. The very fact you let people run you over lends even more to the fact you are sub-human and deserve to be treated as such.

If you ever want to get a date, DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE "NICE GUYS." Instead, be nice because it is the proper thing to do, not because you want into that girl's pants. Grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourself. if there's a girl you like, let her know how you feel, rejection isn't the end of the world. And furthermore, try to hold onto a little bit of sanity, kthnx?

I'm not saying there's something wrong with being a truly nice guy, it's just that "nice guy" has a completely different connotation than you think. The moment someone decribes themself as a nice guy, I can't help but cringe and wonder if they really mean that or they're absolutely clueless what that phrase means to chicks and mature guys.

pats Zarre in commiseration in a totally non-sexual and non condescending way. They weren't nice guys....they were freaks.

Maybe I'm clueless about this Zarre or it's a regional thing, (because I have described myself as a nice guy before) but how do you tell the nice guys from the "nice guys" when they both describe themselves as nice guys?

I suspect it's the confidence factor again isn't it? True nice guys are comfortable and confident as opposed to their freaky opposites.

JAGG

[Zarrexaij]

Okay, you dated a couple of crazies, we all (well, most of us) have been there. Yeah, they were disguised as "nice guys"; I've seen the phenomenon, too. But don't take it out on every guy who tries to be helpful, cooperative, and/or do the right thing.

Stereotyping a little, here? :smallconfused:GJ, you've taken all I've said out of context. I talked about "nice guys," not guys in general. If I was mad at guys in general, I won't have guy friends or be dating a guy, would I? I would have been "BOOOO HISS MEN ARE BAD RAWR RAWR RAWR MISANDRIST RANT HERE MISANDRIST RANT THERE." Saying my rant about "nice guys" is essentially misandrist is like saying I'm a dirty hippy when I'm saying we need to do something about global warming. It just doesn't make sense.

Hell, if I was taking it out all guys I would have stopped going on about "nice guys" and turned it into ALL GUYS.

I just hate it when people take things like this way out of context and try to say I'm a bad guy.

[Collin152]

GJ, you've taken all I've said out of context. I talked about "nice guys," not guys in general. If I was mad at guys in general, I won't have guy friends or be dating a guy, would I? I would have been "BOOOO HISS MEN ARE BAD RAWR RAWR RAWR MISANDRIST RANT HERE MISANDRIST RANT THERE." Saying my rant about "nice guys" is essentially misandrist is like saying I'm a dirty hippy when I'm saying we need to do something about global warming. It just doesn't make sense.

Hell, if I was taking it out all guys I would have stopped going on about "nice guys" and turned it into ALL GUYS.

I just hate it when people take things like this way out of context and try to say I'm a bad guy.

... said the pot to the kettle...

[Zarrexaij]

Maybe I'm clueless about this Zarre or it's a regional thing, (because I have described myself as a nice guy before) but how do you tell the nice guys from the "nice guys" when they both describe themselves as nice guys?

I suspect it's the confidence factor again isn't it? True nice guys are comfortable and confident as opposed to their freaky opposites.

JAGGI wouldn't say all true nice guys are comfortable and confident. It's a little hard to define what makes a "nice guy." It's mostly the obsessive and psychotic part, and the act of being falsely nice is a compensation for it. To the inexperienced girl, the guy is simply being nice, albeit sometimes "too nice" (as in eeriely nice, and yes, there is a ground where charming nice moves into "....oookay, you're being too nice"). I'm sure both the freaks I dated would describe themselves as "nice." However, when it came down to it, neither of them were as nice as their facade indicated. I'd put them under the brand of "wow, and I thought I was absolute fruit loops."

I have nothing against guys who are actually nice, but I hate it when a guy is nice to me simply because he thinks he can get "something" in return. Now that I've dealt with two of those guys (hell, after the first I became keen to it), I can see ridiculously past those attempts.

My current boyfriend has problems (we all do), but I'd never place him under the "nice guy" label. He has confidence issues, but that's made him more depressed than one of those psychotic guys that stalk the girls that reject them or they just plain like.

When people are just describing themselves, well, actions speak louder than words. Back on a forum I was on, I was flamed to hell by offended "nice guys" when I posted about the guy who turned into an absolute nut. :smalleek:


... said the pot to the kettle...But it's so easy to demonize me!

[Pyrian]

GJ, you've taken all I've said out of context. I talked about "nice guys," not guys in general.Right, "nice guys" in general. Interestingly, your accusation of "out of context" relies entirely on taking my post out of context. :smallsigh:


I just hate it when people take things like this way out of context and try to say I'm a bad guy.Well, Collin152 pretty much nailed it, but you're sitting here railing against "nice guys" in general because of the actions of a couple guys you know.

[BooTheHamster]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIITTTTT.... so being a creepy stalker kid ISN'T what being nice is all about? But but but....

Ok, new tactic: kidnapping. Am I getting closer?

I'm a huge fan of creepy stalker types, though. My ex had one while we were dating, and we'd joke around about it all the time. He still tails her and sends little love notes, despite her being insanely not interested. He doesn't even know how to be subtle about his intentions, either, constantly declaring his love after knowing her for ten days, and actively trying to break us up while we were dating, but saying he's a 'nice guy'. It was so incredibly easy to see through it that I actually felt sorry for him. Stole all my moves, too. :smallwink:

I've been stalked myself a few times, but usually, as Zarre pointed out, they usually turn into basket cases after a while. One of the girls went on to stalk a friend of mine as well, they dated, broke up, and 2 years later she still creepily stalks him. Worst mistake he ever made, and we remind him constantly about it. Some people are just obsessive.

Man, I have so many stories of creepy stalker kids it's not even funny, except it really is.

[Cyclone231]

I guessed as soon as I read the topic title what this was about. I guess when you spend enough time lurking on a feminist forum, you start to absorb these sorts of factoids, like what the word "nice" actually means in this context.

The problem is that, in the sense it is used here, niceness is a social strategy. It is no more worthy of respect than a callous or introverted social strategy. There is "being a good person" and there is "being a nice person." They are not one and the same, I hate to break it to you. I can be a brutally honest jerk who has no tact and be a better, more moral person than a "nice guy."

Of course, the specific flavor of "nice guy" so often described in these topics is "sycophantic lecher," that is, a person who will behave in whatever way they think will leave their "friend" feeling good, no matter the cost to themselves or their friend. They also feel really bad when their sycophantic behavior doesn't get them laid, but that's just natural - that's the reason they're acting like this, some misguided belief that it will do something, which is so frequently "get them laid."

Newsflash: your social strategy is terrible and attracts terrible friends, it does not make you a better person, and most importantly, YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO GET LAID JUST BECAUSE YOU BEHAVE A CERTAIN WAY. The world isn't just, grow up and find someone who you can convince to have sex with you rather than believing that a mindless insistence on a specific social strategy will magically start working and make your friends start finding you attractive.



Now, there is something also worth noting here: it is a supremely bad thing to let a friend continually select the same specific mold of partner over and over again, when that style of partner has continually done the exact same thing. I once read a rather excellent scenario (in an article? a sample of a book-in-progress? I dunno. Here's a link (http://www.obgyn.net/displayarticle.asp?page=/yw/articles/Romeopart2)) detailing how utterly firetrucked up it is to be stuck in that situation. Here's a quote:

Imagine-or remember-the following scenario:

You're at a friend's party, and you're single again. You have sworn to yourself, and a dozen friends and acquaintances, that you're never going to pick another loser. The next guy you get involved with is going to be sweet, smart, kind, successful and interested in you. All your friends seem to be telling you the same thing: "Don't worry. You'll spot the jerks. You've been through it enough times. Now you really know how to tell the losers from the good guys."

Confident that pure experience alone has mysteriously given you the ability to protect yourself from ending-up with another self-centered manipulator, you confidently scan the crowd, trying to sort out the unmarried men from those trying to look single.
. . .
After an hour, you're starting to get bored when someone arrives late. He steps right in to the middle of the crowd, doesn't seem to really know anyone, but acts like everyone knows him. He isn't particularly good-looking, but you recognize that other women are noticing him. And suddenly he notices you. He not only notices, but immediately steps out of the crowd and strides directly toward you, as if he already knows you. His eyes fix directly into yours, and his smile shines with all the sincerity modern dentistry can afford. In the back of your mind, the voice of experience is trying to warn you, but there is something louder about this man's manner than the wobbling wisdom of your experience. He is so immediately attentive. You feel targeted at the center of his attention. His persistently complimentary manner is exciting, because it is he that is making the compliments. Even though he is talking about you, what really feels good is listening to him. And he is so charming.

By the end of the evening, you've given him your phone number and made a dinner date for the following night. Two weeks later you are already "involved." At the end of the month, you're sleeping with him. But, once that happens, you notice a change in him. Suddenly, you are no longer at the center of his attention--he is. And the sole topic of every conversation has become only him.

[BooTheHamster]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIITTTTT.... so being a creepy stalker kid ISN'T what being nice is all about? But but but....

Ok, new tactic: kidnapping. Am I getting closer?

I'm a huge fan of creepy stalker types, though. My ex had one while we were dating, and we'd joke around about it all the time. He still tails her and sends little love notes, despite her being insanely not interested. He doesn't even know how to be subtle about his intentions, either, constantly declaring his love after knowing her for ten days, and actively trying to break us up while we were dating, but saying he's a 'nice guy' and calling himself a 'problem solver'. He should solve himself. It was so incredibly easy to see through it that I actually felt sorry for him. I told her to throw him a bone (no pun intended), but she just laughed. So sad when star-crossed lovers can't make it work, eh? The guy stole all my moves, too. Still kind of angry about that. :smallwink:

I've been stalked myself a few times, but, as Zarre pointed out, they usually turn into basket cases after a while. One of the girls went on to stalk a friend of mine as well, they dated, broke up, and 2 years later she still creepily stalks him. Worst mistake he ever made, and we remind him constantly about it. Some people are just obsessive.

Man, I have so many stories of creepy stalker kids it's not even funny, except it really is.

[Collin152]

Ok, new tactic: kidnapping. Am I getting closer?

I'd find it hot, but I think most girls would object.

[Skippy]

*Sigh*

Just found this thread.

Thanks for the toast. I appreciate it too. If only they realized of it...

[Zarrexaij]

Ok, new tactic: kidnapping. Am I getting closer?I'd suggest something even BETTER but I'd get vanned. :smallamused:

Yes, vanned. I've probably already surpassed my limit of devious things. Tomorrow, I will be vanned by the Bureau of Morality. :smalltongue:

[Jagg]

I'd suggest something even BETTER but I'd get vanned. :smallamused:

Yes, vanned. I've probably already surpassed my limit of devious things. Tomorrow, I will be vanned by the Bureau of Morality. :smalltongue:

You do NOT want to know what image I got in my head from this comment.

Bad Zarre. Now I need anti-gutter-brain medication

[BooTheHamster]

You do NOT want to know what image I got in my head from this comment.

Bad Zarre. Now I need anti-gutter-brain medication
So...

To the House of Horrors? :smallbiggrin:

[SilverSheriff]

Seriously? The entire thing is trite. It shows a really negative view of women as people who get trashed all the time, complain, and need babysitting by the "nice guy." The "nice guy" isn't even nice. He sounds like a pushover who has to endure the company of his female friends instead of being actual friends with him. He sounds like a creep with no backbone for talking to the girls he's friends with, that isn't what makes a nice guy. And the biggest complaint is that he can't get laid, which is petty, and almost guaranteed to be because of social skill status rather than how good of a person he is.

fix'd.

seriously: the girls never want the nice guys, they want the bad guys, they want to be with a rough guy who looks tough, acts tough, but probably isn't for their need to convert that Tough Guy into a Nice Guy.

To the nice guys, who will eventually find a really hot chick to be their wife... :cool:

[Ziren]

Executor, I let it slip the first time, but since you had to quote the post and present it as non-misogynistic, you leave me with no choice.


The woman was created by God out of Man's rib. Not out of his head to be his master, nor out of his feet to be trampled beneath him, but out of his side to be his equal, under his arm to be protected by him and near his heart to be loved by him.

1. The bold part:You said yourself that you know tough girls, yet you make a statement on how women should be protected by men as a principle? The only way how I could see those two statements fit together is if you think that there are certain women who are tougher than certain guys but think that a women should always have a "patron" (I can't think of a better word) stronger than herself to protect her (father, boyfriend...). Which brings us back to "outdated grasp on gender roles".

2. The whole paragraph: See how you have made the woman in the passive person all the time (I'm excluding the "head" and "feet" part here, because they have nothing to do with the basic assertion)?

3. You even used "Man" as a proper noun while using only the general noun for "woman". It's hard to get more obvious.

4. A lot of bibles have stopped using the "created from the rib" part, because it implies that a woman is nothing more than a piece from a man. A piece that he needs to be complete, sure. But what would you consider as less complete*: A clock that is just missing the minute hand or the minute hand missing the rest of the clock?


*I understand that "less complete" is not a proper term, but I don't know a better one.

[Executor]

1. Yes I know tough women, and I know weak men, and I know tough men and weak women. I'm saying in general, I'm usually the stronger one in the relationship and feel that obligation to protect the woman. That's probably just me... and i'm sorry if feeling a protective instinct makes me a sexist.

2. How is woman the passive? Out of his side to be his equal, under the arm to be protected we've addressed and by his heart to be loved. I wrote that paragraph from a man's point of view because... well I am a man.

3. Oh so forgetting to capitalize in one occasion and succeeding to do it in another makes me a sexist?

4. I have a very old Bible, what can I say?

Quite frankly i'm getting tired of being called misogynistic because I try to act with chivalry towards women. I've been raised to be a gentleman and this is what I get for it? I suppose you can interpet anything I say as misogynistic but I tell you now that I am NOT a sexist for being a gentleman. I don't just think, I know women can do things for themselves, but I still feel obligated as a gentleman to help them if I can. Does this mean I think the woman can't do it by herself? No, it shows that I care enough to want to help them.

[Ziren]

I'm not saying your a misogynist, I just say that by your attitude is supporting (and most likely influenced by) misogynistic behaviour.

1. Yes, reducing individuals to the roles applied to their gender makes you a sexist. That's actually the definition of sexist behaviour.

2. I meant "passive" in the literal way
to be protected
to be loved

3. No, it makes you careless. But I admit that it was the weakest point on the list.

4. That defeats my point how?


Edited because of poor phrasing. Note to self: Stop writing stuff at 0:30.

[Executor]

1. I can only go off my own experience in relationships, and in my own experience I tend to be the stronger one.

2 and 3. I still argue that the semantics of language does not make one sexist, it means one chose the wrong way to phrase something.

4. It doesn't, I admit, but it does explain my choice of metaphor.

[Zarrexaij]

fix'd.

seriously: the girls never want the horribly pessimistic guys who end up dateless do to self-fufilling prophecy, they want the guys who don't constantly dwell on the fact they can't get a date.I FIXED THIS FOR YOU LAWL.

[SilverSheriff]

I FIXED THIS FOR YOU LAWL.

Ah! Touche'. :biggrin:

[Flickerdart]

I think we're just having a problem defining "nice guy" here...personally, I'd say I'm a nice guy. I try to make people feel better. I do sacrifice my own time and effort to help people in distress. Sure, most of said people are girls (most of my friends are girls, and men don't generally do the whole public distress thing, in my experience). But it really doesn't matter to me whether I get my "dues", or not. I did what was right. Knowing I helped is reward enough.

That's not to say I'm a spineless coward. But when someone needs help, I'm going to give it, and I don't expect anything back. Lawful Good represent!

[Collin152]

Lawful Good represent!

Nah. Go True Neutral. Play all the fields equally.
I'm lawful, and chaotic, and good, and evil. Ca'nt beat that.

[NinjaHippy]

Bear in mind, Executor and Ziren, that intentions and results are not the same thing at all. A lot of times, people will do something that they think is the "nice" thing to do, but that action will reinforce sexist (or racist, or homophobic, or whatever) tendencies. The whole chivalry bit, for example, can be taken to imply that girls need the extra help or can't do stuff themselves.

[Solo]

Nah. Go True Neutral. Play all the fields equally.
I'm lawful, and chaotic, and good, and evil. Ca'nt beat that.

Yes, I can.

True AWESOME!

[Jagg]

Hey this seemed pertinent...and timely

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23883345-36398,00.html

I wonder if I can find the original article?

[Ziren]

Bear in mind, Executor and Ziren, that intentions and results are not the same thing at all. A lot of times, people will do something that they think is the "nice" thing to do, but that action will reinforce sexist (or racist, or homophobic, or whatever) tendencies. The whole chivalry bit, for example, can be taken to imply that girls need the extra help or can't do stuff themselves.


Isn't that exactly what I said here?


I'm not saying your a misogynist, I just say that by your attitude is supporting (and most likely influenced by) misogynistic behaviour.

[Telonius]

"I poured your tea because I wanted to, and for no other reason." - Iroh

The biggest problems with "chivalry" arise when one of three things happen. One, the "nice guy" doesn't really know his own motivations. Two, he knows his motivations, and they're not about equality; but he chooses them regardless. Three, he knows his motivations, and the motive is a genuine concern and respect for other people (the real essence of chivalry, for both men and women), but the other people believe his actions suggest a different motivation.

If you choose to act in a chivalrous way, you have to accept all of the consequences of that choice - including the fact that there will be women who will mistake your intentions. If this consequence bothers you, then choose differently. Don't curse fate, take responsibility for your own fate. If what you've done has offended someone, apologize and act differently to that person in the future. (If someone is offended by what they believe your motivation is, don't apologize. Simply tell them your reason and move on; they're free to believe you or not).

[Vampire包子]

This reminds me of the Chivalry thread a long time ago... in a forum.. well, this very forum!

To reiterate: Cheers to the nice guys who are nice because it is the right thing to do (read: you are nice without ulterior motives: ask, would you do the same for a male friend?). Cheers to us. And should any "nice guy" complain about not getting laid, the shame and blame lies on his head. Because, y'know, being nice to get laid isn't really being a nice/good guy, and a lot less effective than alcohol.

[NinjaHippy]

This reminds me of the Chivalry thread a long time ago... in a forum.. well, this very forum!

To reiterate: Cheers to the nice guys who are nice because it is the right thing to do (read: you are nice without ulterior motives: ask, would you do the same for a male friend?). Cheers to us. And should any "nice guy" complain about not getting laid, the shame and blame lies on his head. Because, y'know, being nice to get laid isn't really being a nice/good guy, and a lot less effective than alcohol.

I was going to agree with the feelings and motives behind this post, until I got to the bolded part.

Now I'm just laughing.

[Khanderas]

This thread seems severly derailed... and long, both in number of posts and length of the posts.
My opinion, while well intended, to say "thanks mate for being such a nice tool guy, we know you wont win, but atleast you are an inspiration to us all, doing the right thing." is kinda kicking the person who is down.

Perhaps there were some advice in the thread on how to get out of our self-destructive niceness ?
This warrents a proper read of the thread, now that I vented my opinion before I read it.

[Mouse Anderson]

To all of you men that feel that being the nice guy sucks, in the long run it does pay dividends.:smallbiggrin:Now before you get the wrong idea, it can lead to that, but it can also lead to the right person. I've been the "nice" guy for most of my life and when I was young it was kinda sad to be the dumped on, the one that always "listened" and their dear friend, but in november I'll be celebrating my 15th anniversery and i'm still extremely happy. So don't give up! :smallsmile:

[averagejoe]

The problem is that, in the sense it is used here, niceness is a social strategy. It is no more worthy of respect than a callous or introverted social strategy. There is "being a good person" and there is "being a nice person." They are not one and the same, I hate to break it to you. I can be a brutally honest jerk who has no tact and be a better, more moral person than a "nice guy."

I've often thought this way, and honestly niceness is a bit overrated in and of itself. I mean, it helps, sure, but it's taken too far, and yet it's still seen unquestioningly as virtuous these days. Give me a friend who will tell me straight up when I'm being stupid (or whatever) any day.


Quite frankly i'm getting tired of being called misogynistic because I try to act with chivalry towards women. I've been raised to be a gentleman and this is what I get for it? I suppose you can interpet anything I say as misogynistic but I tell you now that I am NOT a sexist for being a gentleman. I don't just think, I know women can do things for themselves, but I still feel obligated as a gentleman to help them if I can. Does this mean I think the woman can't do it by herself? No, it shows that I care enough to want to help them.

Just like to point out, you keep saying, "towards women," and such. Does that mean that you wouldn't do the same for a man? If so, then it is sexist behavior. Whether or not it's good or correct behavior is rather moot, but treating women different from men is pretty much the definition of sexism.

[NinjaHippy]

I've often thought this way, and honestly niceness is a bit overrated in and of itself. I mean, it helps, sure, but it's taken too far, and yet it's still seen unquestioningly as virtuous these days. Give me a friend who will tell me straight up when I'm being stupid (or whatever) any day.


You used the word virtuous... I gotta ask, is there something wrong with being "virtuous"? I've always thought that that word had a generally positive connotation...

[averagejoe]

You used the word virtuous... I gotta ask, is there something wrong with being "virtuous"? I've always thought that that word had a generally positive connotation...

Ah, no, you misunderstand. I was saying that activities associated with niceness are always seen as virtuous, where this isn't necessarily always the case. Being virtuous is, I think, by definition a good thing, one just isn't always being virtuous when they're being nice.

[Pyrian]

A whole heck of a lot more likely, though. :smallyuk: