[Exalted] need info on 2e

[pasko77]

Greetings!
(warning: rant on 4ed coming)

After seeing 4th ed rules, particularly the (inexistent) skill system and the totlal flatness of races and powers, my players group swore they would never ever play it, and asked me to switch back to Exalted.

The point is, i'd like a Sword and Sorcery campaign, and, unless limiting ourselves to the Dragon-blooded, exalted isn'really fit. Moreover, i would have to do from scratch rules for other races and for spells.

So, i wish to know if somebody knows some house-ruleset to convert exalted "a la DnD".

Plus, i only have 1st edition, what are the differences with 2nd? Would you advice on converting to it? My splatbooks (dragonblooded, lunars, abyssals) would be compatible or should i throw'em out of the window?

Thanks for the answers,
Pasko

ps. 4ed is not wow. It is a complex version of heroquest. How depressing.

[nagora]

Greetings!
(warning: rant on 4ed coming)

After seeing 4th ed rules, particularly the (inexistent) skill system and the totlal flatness of races and powers, my players group swore they would never ever play it, and asked me to switch back to Exalted.

The point is, i'd like a Sword and Sorcery campaign, and, unless limiting ourselves to the Dragon-blooded, exalted isn'really fit. Moreover, i would have to do from scratch rules for other races and for spells.

So, i wish to know if somebody knows some house-ruleset to convert exalted "a la DnD".

Plus, i only have 1st edition, what are the differences with 2nd? Would you advice on converting to it? My splatbooks (dragonblooded, lunars, abyssals) would be compatible or should i throw'em out of the window?

Thanks for the answers,
Pasko

ps. 4ed is not wow. It is a complex version of heroquest. How depressing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Specific_differen ces_between_versions_of_Dungeons_.26_Dragons

Personally, I prefer 1ed because it has no skill system.

[Tsotha-lanti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Specific_differen ces_between_versions_of_Dungeons_.26_Dragons

Personally, I prefer 1ed because it has no skill system.

Pretty sure he meant Exalted 1E and 2E, man.

[pasko77]

Pretty sure he meant Exalted 1E and 2E, man.

Yes, indeed.
I'd like to know the differences between 1st and 2nd of Exalted, and which of these editions is better in your experience.
Thanks.

[nagora]

Yes, indeed.
I'd like to know the differences between 1st and 2nd of Exalted, and which of these editions is better in your experience.
Thanks.
Sorry, I thought you meant that you wanted to try 2e D&D because Exalted wasn't S&S enough.:smallredface:

[pasko77]

Sorry, I thought you meant that you wanted to try 2e D&D because Exalted wasn't S&S enough.:smallredface:

I'd like (or better, i'm _required_ )to use the rules of exalted, but i'd like to have a S&S Scenario.

So my first question was if anyone has made/seen conversions from exalted charms to abilities&spells (basically a huge toning down) for other scenarios.

[Indon]

Well, I dunno about 2'nd edition Exalted, but if you want a lower-power level game in 1'st edition, you can just grab the Player's Guide (in addition to the standard book). The book has rules for playing heroic mortals, and humans with magical bloodlines.

[Kyeudo]

How is Exalted not "Sword and Sorcery" enough for you? Read any of the D&D novels, like the Drizzt books, and you'll see the cinematic, over-the-top style that fits in perfectly with Exalted. Sorcerers call demons and cast spells that rend the flesh from peoples bones. Swordsmen who take on 20 men and vanquish them all. Magical artifacts that can decide the fate of kingdoms.

The only difference between a D&D setting using d10 rules and Exalted is the setting. Swap western influences for eastern ones and you can have yourself a fine game.

Start with the elements. Go from the 5 elements down to only 4 by cutting wood out. Wood element Dragon-Blooded could get rethemed or just dropped outright. Replace the Chinese Realm with a more Roman Empire, the jade standard with a gold standard, and largely ignore the spirit worldm, and Presto! A more medival feeling Creation, ready for a game.

[Tsotha-lanti]

How is Exalted not "Sword and Sorcery" enough for you? Read any of the D&D novels, like the Drizzt books, and you'll see the cinematic, over-the-top style that fits in perfectly with Exalted.

That's not Sword and Sorcery.

Try Howard, Leiber, and Moorcock instead.

[Kyeudo]

I follow book titles better than I follow author names. What did they write?

[Attilargh]

Conan, Fafhrd (Gesundheit!) and the Gray Mouser, and Elric, respectively

[Ravyn]

Since nobody's answered your edition comparison question:

2nd Ed is higher powered than 1st, by a long shot. The good news is that it does the Lunars better, also by a long shot.

It also features die-adders for everything, groups defense separately from offense (and removes the need to roll defenses), and introduces a byzantine social combat system that, while I will give it credit for some of the amusing Charms it's resulted in, in general I try to avoid like the plague. My group finally gave up on it after the power-creep got to where things were bypassing Perfects. On the plus side, some of the supplements are still worth adding to a 1E game; I'm particularly fond of [I]Oadenol's Codex for actually giving some decent suggestions for geomancy.

Short version: Don't bother converting up an edition. It's really not worth it. Yoink what you can, ignore what you can't yoink, and have fun.

As for the issue of game thematics--I'm not entirely sure what you're going for, but if you're trying to make it so 'magic' outside of sorcery is harder to do, you may be able to do something of the sort by doubling the XP/BP cost of Charms (sorcery itself costs double, but once you've picked it up the spells themselves cost as per Charm standard for that Exalt type, pre-doubling). Then halve the starting Charms and give them ten (at least!) extra points of Abilities to make up for it. I haven't actually tested this, but it should be workable. Or, as was suggested earlier, just use their rules for heroic mortals and/or God-Blooded. It would probably be more straightforward, and the thaumaturgy rules make for some interesting effects.

[Indon]

That's not Sword and Sorcery.

Try Howard, Leiber, and Moorcock instead.

Elric is totally an Exalt (I'd put him at Solar in terms of power level, based on his combat prowess with his weapon and his sorcery), and the Black Sword is forged of soulsteel from the bowels of Hell.

Corum and Hawkmoon I'd also argue are at about Dragon-Blood levels of power.

As for Conan, well, yeah, you'd need a heroic mortal to do Conan. Thus the Player's Guide.

[Kyeudo]

Conan would make an excellent Solar. What can an Exalt do that is too flashy for Conan the Barbarian? Swing a huge sword? Be the strongest man alive? Survive wounds that would kill a lesser man?

[Attilargh]

Weeeell, balance on an opponent's sword, for example. Write like Light of Death Note, leap over houses, and punch a fist through an enemy's ribcage to rip out the still-beating heart. Strike an enemy with their Battle Aura or the shadow of their hand. Forge a sword without tools and draw weapons from hammerspace.

For example.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Conan would make an excellent Solar. What can an Exalt do that is too flashy for Conan the Barbarian? Swing a huge sword? Be the strongest man alive? Survive wounds that would kill a lesser man?

What does any of this (and Indon's reply) have to do with the fact that "over-the-top and cinematic" is pretty nearly the polar opposite of the Sword & Sorcery genre, which goes for gritty, dark, and usually very realistic (at least outside of the magic) ?

If the game mechanics are built around assumptions like "all PCs have magical or near-magical abilities they use all the time", the system is pretty much definitionally unsuitable for Sword & Sorcery.

BRP RuneQuest and Mongoose's RuneQuest are excellent Sword & Sorcery systems; various other Chaosium's BRP-based games are also excellent examples (Elric, Stormbringer, Corum...). The d20 Conan is another similar system, obviously.

So, pasko77, I recommend checking out the Mongoose RQ SRD, available here (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=39). (Note that Companion and Monsters have separate SRDs. I think the critical Player's Update is incorporated into the main SRD, too.) Getting your hands on older versions of RuneQuest may be really tricky by now, but eBay should work. It's basically the exact same system, but the old hit point system makes combat much deadlier, and all the other systems are a bit worse (magic especially).

[pasko77]

Thanks for the answers!
I will take a look at the runequest link, and check out the new combat mechanics from Exalted 2nd edition.

Ravyn , expecially this line raises my interest:



groups defense separately from offense (and removes the need to roll defenses),


On "why exalted is not S&S": it is too high powered, and more "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". In a S&S i'm not expected to break through walls with bare hands, and for medieaval flavour, there should not be all these martial arts... i mean... monks in D&D... come on :)
Though i take a point about demon summoning. THIS aspect is S&S.

Using only Dragon Blooded and mortals, anyway, will suffice, and was my original "plan B" in case of lack of homebrewed systems.

[GryffonDurime]

...Your players asked you for Exalted, and your response was to look for a way to run pretty much the thematic opposite?

Why does this seem like this will end with dissatisfied players and lots of grumbling?

[Indon]

Using only Dragon Blooded and mortals, anyway, will suffice, and was my original "plan B" in case of lack of homebrewed systems.

As I noted: Exalted Players' Guide has rules for mortals, and also rules for magical beings closer in power to mortals than to Exalts.

I highly recommend it for a more gritty game: Just remember to apply the rules for bleeding and disease and such (I love how the core book goes into significant depth on them, and then is all, "Oh yeah, and Exalts can spend like 1 essence to ignore it forever").

Edit: Gryffon, methinks you underestimate the genre-flexibility of the game. Exalted isn't limited to the shonen, DBZ-esque scale and style. You can play Berserk too, which is practically low-level D&D in power scale and style.

[pasko77]

...Your players asked you for Exalted, and your response was to look for a way to run pretty much the thematic opposite?

Why does this seem like this will end with dissatisfied players and lots of grumbling?

As Indon notes, i was asked to switch back to the rules system, not to the genre. No level, but trees of proficiency, no combat centric, but all around (thirty "talents" on commerce and diplomacy, hardly like dnd).

I think it will go well :)
Anyway thanks, indeed i can ask them what power level to adjust to. That's a good objection.

[Corolinth]

When he capitalized "Sword and Sorcery," thought he was referring to the White Wolf label for some of their d20 products.

[Kyeudo]

Weeeell, balance on an opponent's sword, for example. Write like Light of Death Note, leap over houses, and punch a fist through an enemy's ribcage to rip out the still-beating heart. Strike an enemy with their Battle Aura or the shadow of their hand. Forge a sword without tools and draw weapons from hammerspace.

For example.

Leaping over houses and ripping someone's heart out sounds very much up Conan's alley. The rest is always optional for Exalts.


What does any of this (and Indon's reply) have to do with the fact that "over-the-top and cinematic" is pretty nearly the polar opposite of the Sword & Sorcery genre, which goes for gritty, dark, and usually very realistic (at least outside of the magic) ?


Someone said Conan was a good example of a Sword and Sorcery hero. He makes a good Dawn Caste Exalt, so I was noticably confused.



If the game mechanics are built around assumptions like "all PCs have magical or near-magical abilities they use all the time", the system is pretty much definitionally unsuitable for Sword & Sorcery.


Have we been playing the same D&D? You know, where Fighters can slay dragons in a single hit, Wizards bend the fabric of reality to their will, Clerics perform miracles on a regular basis, and Rogues can be practicaly invisible from the get go?


Exalted can do dark and gritty without too much trouble.
Dark is more a matter of setting, rather than rules set, and Creation is fairly dark to begin with. Corruption, greed, nations on the verge of civil war and ruled by iron fisted tyrants, and that's just the Threshhold.
Gritty is more a matter of how tough it is to overcome challenges, rather than what the challenges are. A gritty game, to me, has always been a game where failure is a very real option. So it takes ten men to equal the challenge presented by four goblins in D&D. Just make it so the challenges they face arn't bandits on the road, but armies, nations, and rogue gods stacked against their efforts.
I would also call Creation more realistic than any D&D world (except maybe Eberron). Creation at least acknowledges that the powers that the Exalted can wield has a major impact on how their society works and naturaly puts the Exalted at the top of the social ladder. Most D&D worlds don't even address the full extent of what magic can do (like the Wall of Iron/Fabricate trick).

I think pasko77 has the right idea. Keeping the level of power in the PCs hads somewhat limited will make it easier to challenge them and make the game gritty enough for his taste, while allowing his players to do the cool stuff that they want to do. Good luck to him in making it sufficiently dark for his taste.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Have we been playing the same D&D? You know, where Fighters can slay dragons in a single hit, Wizards bend the fabric of reality to their will, Clerics perform miracles on a regular basis, and Rogues can be practicaly invisible from the get go?

D&D is eminently unsuitable for sword & sorcery; it's high fantasy, which is a very different fantasy genre. Conan d20 is a seriously different game for good reason - no magic items (the ones that exist are artifacts), no reliance on gear, only one spellcasting class and they don't even have to learn spellcasting, a completely different magic system, revamped combat which is much more lethal, etc.

Why would you think that I believe D&D is even remotely suitable for sword & sorcery, a genre literally defined by Howard's Conan stories?

Exalted is simply way too high-magic and high-fantasy for sword & sorcery, where you're more likely to fight other men, giant apes, tigers, or savage neanderthals than demons and sorcerers. (That's why the sorcerers make such memorable foes in stories like Hour of the Dragon and People of the Black Circle.)


Leaping over houses and ripping someone's heart out sounds very much up Conan's alley. The rest is always optional for Exalts.

It isn't, though. Conan's abilities are never blatantly superhuman. When the great white ape grapples him in Hour of the Dragon, only his desperate tactic, reflexes, and throwing all his great strength into the effort lets him survive by managing to kill the ape with a vital blow before he is entirely crushed. Leaping over houses? That's not possible for humans - so Conan doesn't do it. He pushes the limits, but never exceeds them. He succeeds against impossible odds by cleverness, skill (in the later stories, where he's a professional soldier and an expert fencer), and the occasional panicked near-atavism.

Similarly, Fafhrd and Gray Mouser are very much limited by human capability. Like Conan, they rely on wits, skill, desperation, and luck rather than any superhuman capability.

Elric wields dark and powerful magic, but he's even more limited by his natural capabilities. He doesn't fling magic about in battle, or jump buildings or fell giants with one blow of a non-magical sword.

A system in which magic is available for everyone, and moreover is a "natural" ability rather than the result of long study of forbidden lore, is clearly not suitable for traditional sword & sorcery fantasy. Sword & sorcery is pretty much defined by the juxtaposition implied in the name - "Swords against Sorcery." (Elric is, obviously and famously, an intentional switch of this theme; rather than being a musclebound barbarian fighting sorcerers, Elric is a frail sorcerer fighting barbarians.)

Sword & sorcery is, like much of older fantasy (say, Middle Earth), decidedly low-magic.

[Ravyn]

Pasko: Basically, what they did was take the standard splitting rules and remove defense from the equation, putting it on a separate scale and making it a semi-static value, rather than a rolled pool. They increased the minimum to make up for the intensified Twilight anima power, then cheapened Perfects and applied a rather silly-sounding "limitation" to them that never actually slows the user down all that much... and don't get me started on some of the things they tried to do with the Abyssals and the high-powered Charms, between the really cheap Perfects and the trying to bypass Perfects.... It wasn't pretty.