Survey: Is Elan a hero?

[puzpuz]

Does Elan deserves to be a main character? IS HE a main character? Is he a hero?

I think yes, yes, and definitely yes.

:smallcool:

[Tempest Fennac]

He is definitly a main character and (most of the time) he is willing to put himself in danger to help other people, so he probably classes as a hero as well. Whether he deserves to be a main character is another thing (alignment-wise, he does, but abilitywise, he was lacking until the DS upgrade).

[Mauve Shirt]

Yes, yes but not THE main character, and yes! He's a dashing swordsman for crying out loud, of course he's a hero!

[puzpuz]

So, Mauve, who is THE main character, according to your believes?

[Mauve Shirt]

Roy. It's his quest. And he's the glue that was holding the party together.

[puzpuz]

Roy. It's his quest. And he's the glue that was holding the party together.

Well, I don't think I can choose one who is THE main character, but if I had to, I guess it would be Roy...

SPOILER:

How sad he's darn dead...

[TigerHunter]

Definitely. There's little to no doubt that he's Good, even if he is a little incompetent at it.

Like the Deva said, it's intent that matters. They don't penalize people for ineffectiveness.

[teratorn]

No, no and no!!!! He is an idiot.

:roy: «I tend to see Elan more as an obstacle that this team overcomes on a regular basis.»

Sir François would agree with Roy.

[FujinAkari]

SPOILER:

How sad he's darn dead...

Is this really a spoiler? This is like spoiling the fact that King Kong dies at the end of the movie... there has to be a statute of limitations on spoilers!

[chiasaur11]

Is this really a spoiler? This is like spoiling the fact that King Kong dies at the end of the movie... there has to be a statute of limitations on spoilers!

It was his sled?

[Saint Nil]

When you think about.....no.

Sure, he's funny. And no doubt adds comic relief to the story, and there is o doubt he's a main character. But Elan is more like a side-kick than a hero. The hero makes the serious and resbonsible decisons, and the sidekick acts silly, and helps things out in a pich, like how he helps in fights/casts illusions to back the party up. Elan is important, but he's no hero.

[Zombie pixe]

Yes, he is a hero. He is not as heroic as say... Cohen the Barbarian from Discworld, but he is heroic. Most heros are iddiots anyway, so all is good :smallbiggrin:

He is a main character too! Just because he's useless doesnt mean hes not important

[Remirach]

When you think about.....no.

Sure, he's funny. And no doubt adds comic relief to the story, and there is o doubt he's a main character. But Elan is more like a side-kick than a hero. The hero makes the serious and resbonsible decisons, and the sidekick acts silly, and helps things out in a pich, like how he helps in fights/casts illusions to back the party up. Elan is important, but he's no hero.
We call both the main character and the sidekick the heroes, though. Even if one is silly. They're both knowingly risking their lives for the sake of fighting evil, so they're both heroic. The distinction "hero" and "sidekick" really only comes into play when you're comparing the two, and in that case "hero" really means "main character," it doesn't imply that the sidekick ISN'T a hero.

[An Enemy Spy]

How could he not be a hero? Does no one remember when he saved the lives of the whole Order (and Haley in particular) from :nale:

[puzpuz]

What I think is that Rich Burlew wants us to think that Elan is a useless dumb, but the day will come, and he will show us that Elan is the most powerfull character in the party!

Think about it, it is really requested... :smalltongue:

[Helanna]

Is this really a spoiler? This is like spoiling the fact that King Kong dies at the end of the movie... there has to be a statute of limitations on spoilers!


I laughed at this. I'd go dig up the comic, but . . . I'm lazy.

So . . .

Yes, Elan's a main character. Does he deserve to be? Sure! The plot wouldn't be NEARLY so interesting without him!

Is he a hero? Of course! He's a Dashing Swordsman. It's practically in the description. Besides, the entire "save Haley" arc pretty much sealed it. How is that not heroic?

[B.I.T.T.]

Spoilers...I'm telling that up front

Is Elan a main character? Sometimes. In a strip like this that has a group of people adventuring together there will inevitably point where the story will follow each one of them. Elan had his spotlight when he escaped from jail, and he's had a bit of main characterdome in the recent "Orcs Like Puppets" storyline. Currently Haley's a main character because she's shlepping her rougish prosterior over to the oracle, Durkon was a main character briefly in the "Hilgya Loves Durkon" storyline, etc etc etc.

Does Elan deserve to be a main character? Yes, sometimes, but if he had the spotlight every strip for too long I myself would probably be turned off.

Is he a hero? If one defines a hero as "One who successfully does heroic stuff on purpose" then yes.

[Jayngfet]

It was his sled?

No, I am your father!

[Lupy]

Elan is a main character (and very much a hero, even Belkar is a hero), but in order of who the main characters are I look at it like this.

:roy:
:haley:
:elan:
:belkar:
:vaarsuvius:
:durkon:
:miko:/:xykon: (tie, Miko was immensely important for about a third of the story, while Xykon is generally the main villain)
:redcloak:
:nale:
:thog:/:sabine: (similar appearances, though Sabine is more plotty)

[Mauve Shirt]

Is this really a spoiler? This is like spoiling the fact that King Kong dies at the end of the movie... there has to be a statute of limitations on spoilers!

Have you seen Passion of The Christ?
JESUS DIES!

[TRM]

Have you seen Passion of The Christ?
JESUS DIES!
Mauve, please mark plot-ruining spoilers more clearly. :smallannoyed:

[AceOfFools]

If you look at either his intent or his results, Elan is one of the most heroic member of OotS. Stupidity doesn't preclude him from being a hero.

His blunders require exceptional stupidity, but generally the results are far from disastrous (with a couple of exceptions, i.e. separating the fighter from his weapons).

Luck is the ultimate heroic power, and Elan has some to spare.


Have you seen Passion of The Christ?
JESUS DIES!
He got better.

[puzpuz]

Elan is a main character (and very much a hero, even Belkar is a hero), but in order of who the main characters are I look at it like this.

:roy:
:haley:
:elan:
:belkar:
:vaarsuvius:
:durkon:
:miko:/:xykon: (tie, Miko was immensely important for about a third of the story, while Xykon is generally the main villain)
:redcloak:
:nale:
:thog:/:sabine: (similar appearances, though Sabine is more plotty)

How dare you put Xykon in such a low place? He should be with Roy in the first place. He is like, the main hero of the bad guys.

[LuisDantas]

I have to disagree with most, except Saint Nil...


Does Elan deserves to be a main character?

Yes, he does, although not nearly as much so as some seem to think.

Certainly not due to his hero qualities, but rather due to his comedic value.

Durkon, Varsuuvius, Hinjo, Lien and Daigo tend to show more promise in a plot sense. Contrast for instance #438 with the strips that surround it: Varsuuvius and Roy are far more heroic than Elan even tries to be.

Not a character fault "per se", but a hero Elan isn't.


IS HE a main character?

Clearly so, sometimes painfully so even.


Is he a hero?

Clearly not. He does not even want it, really; Elan is a well-intentioned guy, even a courageous one, but he is simply not cut out to be a hero. A lucky and (somewhat) loyal ally, yes, but by no means a true hero.

A true hero would not, for one thing, have avoided such an imature speech as Elan gave us at #421.


Elan is a main character (and very much a hero, even Belkar is a hero), but in order of who the main characters are I look at it like this.

My own classification would be:


:roy: (has the drive, the competence, and actually fell in the good fight even)

:vaarsuvius: (I am specially fond of his Azure City scenes, despite his cowardice at the end)

:haley: (arguably the character who grew the most. To think that greed was at first her defining atribute... :smallsmile: )

:durkon: (hero material all the way, as are those I previous mentioned)

:belkar: (not at all a hero, but makes a good proxy when properly directed)

:elan: (sometimes a hero, mainly by luck)

:miko: (she's got no criteria and is quite self-deluded, but she tries)

:redcloak: (hero material with a tragic past)


And I wouldn't at all list :xykon:, :nale:, :thog: or :sabine:

[Lupy]

How dare you put Xykon in such a low place? He should be with Roy in the first place. He is like, the main hero of the bad guys.

The Order of the Stick outrank everyone, it's there story. Therefore, Xykon is tied for the highest available space. :smallwink:

[Mauve Shirt]

How dare you put Xykon in such a low place? He should be with Roy in the first place. He is like, the main hero of the bad guys.

Hero of the bad guys? :smallamused:

My ranking:

:roy:
:haley:
:elan: He wants to save people, even if he does the wrong thing
:durkon:
:vaarsuvius: He hates using his immense power to help the people in his immediate vicinity
:belkar:
:miko:
:redcloak: Heroic motives and all that, still a villain.
:xykon: Totally a villain, but a likable one.
:nale:
:sabine:
:thog:

[SPoD]

The problem here is the definition of the word "hero". Does it mean someone who is good and tries to do good things? Or does it mean a specific role, the main protagonist, the person who always does the right thing? Elan may be the former, but he is not the latter.

I'm pretty sure this thread started as a result of the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80697), where a poster started expounding on how much they hate Elan because he didn't do what a "true hero" would do in various situations--which is completely missing the point of the character. Elan is an idiot; he doesn't know what to do in most situations, he blunders through and hopes it all turns out OK. Storywise, that's not the hero's role. That's the role of the comedy relief sidekick. The hero is the one who moves the plot of the story forward for the good guys, and that's Roy (and to a lesser degree, Haley). Banjo Island was practically a textbook example of "What if Elan was the hero of the story?" Everything would fall apart, and only luck (in the form of other people intervening, in this case Therkla) would keep everyone from getting killed by the end.

So really, we're all talking about different things. There's no doubt that Elan is a good person and a main character. But he doesn't have the drive and the will to be the Hero of the story, nor should we judge him harshly because he doesn't. That's not his purpose. His purpose is to provide comedy relief, which he does admirably.

[teratorn]

Banjo Island was practically a textbook example of "What if Elan was the hero of the story?" Everything would fall apart, and only luck (in the form of other people intervening, in this case Therkla) would keep everyone from getting killed by the end.

Yep, Therkla was the real hero in the story. It's funny that even in Therkla's fantasy Elan is the sidekick. Elan is Bard-boy, not Bard-man.

[SPoD]

Just to further confuse/clear up the issue, I checked out Dictionary.com's definition of "hero"


1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. In Classical Mythology:
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
5. a large sandwich, usually consisting of a small loaf of bread or long roll cut in half lengthwise and containing a variety of ingredients, as meat, cheese, lettuce, and tomatoes.
6. the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

Let's look at each of these with regard to Elan:
1.) There are four qualities here: distinguished courage, distinguished ability, brave deeds, or noble qualities. Elan definitely scores on the last two of these; he has engaged in brave deeds (rescuing Haley) and has some noble qualities (mostly his Good alignment). He runs away an awful lot to count as having "distinguished courage," and I don't think anyone would claim he has even average ability for an adventurer, much less distinguished ability. Further, no one in the story actually admires Elan for those qualities, which is part of the definition. So, 50-50 at best.
2.) Elan has performed heroic acts, there's no doubt. However, this definition also requires him to be regarded as an ideal or model, and that is definitely NOT the case. If anything, he's an example of how NOT to be an adventurer. So he ultimately fails this definition of hero.
3.) No. Elan is not the principal character of this story, male or otherwise. That would be Roy. By this definition, Elan is clearly not the hero of OOTS.
4.) (All subdefinitions) Barring some revelation that his father was Ares or Tyr or something, none of these apply either.
5.) No; as this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) clearly pointed out, Vaarsuvius is the hero of the strip. :smallwink:
6.) Again, no.

So, Elan partly qualifies for some definitions, but fails for most. He has some heroic qualities, but he is not a hero.

EDIT: Missed the bit about "ideal or model", which changes everything.

[Morgan Wick]

I actually have a theory that Elan is becoming a Mary Sue (or perhaps, Marty Stu).

I have a truly marvellous proof of this proposition, which this space is too small to contain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem)

[TheNifty]

I'm gonna disagree on philisophical reasoning; A hero is, amongst other things, someone who displays tremendous courage. Courage is the overcoming of great fear. This is where Elan fails; he never feels "great fear" because he is convinced that nothing truly bad will ever happen to him. Thus, he cannot display courage, thus he cannot be a hero.

In other words; Elan is positive he will get a happy ending. No action he takes now can endanger that, therefore there's no downside to him in acting heroic. It's easy to act the hero when you know you're never going to have to risk your life or happiness.

[disorder]

I'm gonna disagree on philisophical reasoning; A hero is, amongst other things, someone who displays tremendous courage. Courage is the overcoming of great fear. This is where Elan fails; he never feels "great fear" because he is convinced that nothing truly bad will ever happen to him. Thus, he cannot display courage, thus he cannot be a hero.


I like your definition of heroism, but I have to disagree with your conclusion.

When Elan was in prison in Cliffport, he was genuinely afraid that Nale would murder Haley and he would be helpless to prevent it. His escape and his race to rescue his friends, while idiosycratic and entirely Elan-ish, were his first real moments of heroism. He knew he was racing against time and might fail -- in fact, for all he knew, everyone he was fighting for might already be dead -- but he never for a moment stopped improvising new, ever-more-idiotic schemes to reach Azure City. In a lot of ways, "I'm no good at this but I'll fake it because Haley needs help" is a lot more heroic than "I was born to do the right thing at the right time."

The next moment that really shook Elan's sense that "everything always works out for the best" was Roy's death. Here, he was ready to despair until Haley spurred him back into action. And his response once she'd rallied him -- "Oh Buddy Roy" -- was another high-water mark for his character.

The real test for Elan came when Hinjo's fleet set sail without Haley. The last two times that he was tested, he'd been doing it for her -- because she needed rescue, or because she was right there encouraging him. Now he had to trust Haley to take care of herself because the Azure civilians needed his protection more. And...well, because he was Elan, he ended up with a false eyepatch and an endless supply of hand puppets, but he accepted his new duty and is still giving it his best shot to this day. He argues with Hinjo every time he sees a chance to reunite with his friends...but in the end, his sense of heroism has expanded beyond "Keep Haley safe", and he'll put his questionable talents in the path of anyone who's endangering innocents.

If he remembers to.

I mean, he's still Elan.

[TheNifty]

I like your definition of heroism, but I have to disagree with your conclusion.

I agree he's acting a lot more like a Chaotic Good character since Cliffport (beforehand you could argue he was closer to CN than CG) but i don't think trying to help your friends is enough to count as true heroism - there has to be some level of personal sacrifice or at least the risk of it. Trying to save someone you love isn't really heroic, as even an evil character could do so (their reasoning would be; Person X makes me happy, therefore in my own self interest I shall save their life).

Elan might play the part of a hero, but he just can't imagine really bad things happening to him as a result. To be a hero is to risk something you value for others. It could be your life, your honor, your happiness. Elan can't be a hero as long as he is incapable of understanding that he could die, that he could suffer, that he could lose what he loves as a result of it.

In short, he's just too much of a dumbass.

[Liwen]

Really? I think being stab in the chest down to -9 hp by his evil twin brother did the trick. Elan knows he can die, he's simply convinced he'll live through the adventure.

[Zorn]

I agree he's acting a lot more like a Chaotic Good character since Cliffport (beforehand you could argue he was closer to CN than CG) but i don't think trying to help your friends is enough to count as true heroism - there has to be some level of personal sacrifice or at least the risk of it. Trying to save someone you love isn't really heroic, as even an evil character could do so (their reasoning would be; Person X makes me happy, therefore in my own self interest I shall save their life).

Elan might play the part of a hero, but he just can't imagine really bad things happening to him as a result. To be a hero is to risk something you value for others. It could be your life, your honor, your happiness. Elan can't be a hero as long as he is incapable of understanding that he could die, that he could suffer, that he could lose what he loves as a result of it.

First of all, Elan is putting a great deal on the line. The fact that he's an adventurer means being on the front lines, risking his life for whatever he hopes to gain from the conflict. True, Elan doesn't always think about death or pain. Just because he isn't paranoid about such things doesn't disqualify him, though. What you're saying is that a hero needs to carefully evaluate the repercussions of his or her actions should he or she fail and then decide to take the chance anyway. I disagree. In a hostage situation, for example, does the off-duty police officer who disarms the perp lose his shot at heroism simply because he wasn't thinking about what would happen if he wasn't successful? By your definition, everyone who acts using adrenaline is not a hero, which essentially means there is no such thing as a hero in a crisis.

What I think you're getting at is that Elan isn't necessarily brave. It doesn't take courage to act on impulse, you're right, because there is no hard decision to shrink away from. Bravery isn't a prerequisite of heroism, though.

Besides, Elan was very much aware of the danger when confronting his brother. Nale had bested him in combat before, and there was no indication that Elan thought things would go differently the second time around. He decided (with very little thought as you pointed out) to act all the same because he valued the lives of his friends over his own.

I know this is a bit off topic, but can anyone really define what it is to be a hero? Personally I think there is no simple, overarching criteria that allows us to define who is a hero and who isn't. When the generals paraded through Rome to celebrate their "heroic conquest," the people lining the streets had no checklist to decide whether they were going to cheer or not. Heroism is determined by the point of view. In that sense, everyone, be they good or evil, has the potential to become a hero if others view them or they view themselves as such.

To wrap up what I originally meant to say in a short, succinct response:

Is Elan a hero? Yes he is, if only because he, in his highly romanticized view on life, sees himself as one.

[TheNifty]

Really? I think being stab in the chest down to -9 hp by his evil twin brother did the trick. Elan knows he can die, he's simply convinced he'll live through the adventure.

Isn't that contradictory? Either he is aware he could die, or he's convinced he's gonna live.


First of all, Elan is putting a great deal on the line. The fact that he's an adventurer means being on the front lines, risking his life for whatever he hopes to gain from the conflict. True, Elan doesn't always think about death or pain. Just because he isn't paranoid about such things doesn't disqualify him, though. What you're saying is that a hero needs to carefully evaluate the repercussions of his or her actions should he or she fail and then decide to take the chance anyway.

Yep, that's it exactly. If you aren't aware of the consequences of failure (which must also be severe), then you can't be a hero, IMHO.


Is Elan a hero? Yes he is, if only because he, in his highly romanticized view on life, sees himself as one.

The problem with that definition is that anyone who sees themself as a hero is a hero. Several serial killers come to mind, as does a certain mid-twentieth century European dictator who shall go unnamed in the interests of thwarting Godwin.

A definition of "hero" is of course relative, as is all language, but my own personal definition requires the hero to be aware of the risk to himself of a particular action and undertake it anyway because it saves the life of someone else. I admit this is a little strict, and rules out some whom many consider to be heroes, such as someone who donates time and money (but doesn't risk their own life) in the pursuit of a worthy cause - trying to find a cure for cancer, or helping out at a homeless shelter, etc.

However, while those actions are very admirable, they aren't "heroic" in the traditional sense, or in my own personal, stricter sense. YMMV, of course.

[Selene]

Trying to save someone you love isn't really heroic, as even an evil character could do so (their reasoning would be; Person X makes me happy, therefore in my own self interest I shall save their life).

I don't think he loved the dirt farmers. But he wasn't the one who objected to helping them with the ogres. V was.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html

Elan went with Haley to rescue the husband.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html

[Tass]

Yes, yes but not THE main character, and yes! He's a dashing swordsman for crying out loud, of course he's a hero!

I thougth he was just a red shirt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4328132&postcount=529)

[mockingbyrd7]

Is this really a spoiler? This is like spoiling the fact that King Kong dies at the end of the movie... there has to be a statute of limitations on spoilers!

I actually didn't know that. Never seen King Kong, but intended on seeing it. Oh well.

Yes, Elan is a hero, yes, he is a main character, and yes he deserves to be. I would go as far as saying that he's the 2nd main character, 2nd to Roy. Elan is also very popular, featured more than most of the others, and more of a leading man than any of the others except for Roy.
(I would consider Haley to be 3rd, Belkar 4th, V 5th, and Durkon 6th. But that's just my opinion.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes. Elan is 100% Idiot Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotHero). He's not THE hero of the story (it's an ensemble piece with a lot of the traditional Hero focus on Roy), but he is certainly a heroic character.

Hm...actually looking around on TVTropes, Elan is filed under The Ditz (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDitz), as well as being a male example of The Chick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChick)...but with competence and bravery recently added in there, I'd promote him.

[theinsulabot]

elan is a bumbling person of lower then average intelligence who occasionally gets a chance to display his mettle and save the life of the stronger and smarter heroes.




essentially, he is a side kick

side note, most people in this thread are relating the intentions of heroism as the sign of a hero, while true, its also true for a sidekick