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Goober4473
2008-06-15, 04:39 PM
A simple question: Are all powers of the same level/type (supposed to be) equal in power, regardless of class? For example, is a level 7 fighter encounter exploit equal in usefulness and power overall to a level 7 wizard encounter spell?

Multiclassing costs feats to swap out powers, but only because it lets you combine and customize, I would assume, not because the new powers are better. Is this the case?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-15, 04:48 PM
Sorta. There are some powers that blow off every other power in the level (And sometimes in other levels too), like Dragon's Fangs or Blade Cascade, but in general, the winner is not so clear cut, and thus the powers are comparable, within a role.

Goober4473
2008-06-15, 04:58 PM
But only within a role?

So, say I'm a fighter, and I'm going to take 1 multiclass feat, and 1 power swapping feat. Would I end up getting a "better" power if I chose a wizard spell or a rogue exploit than a paladin prayer? Clearly it depends on what I want to do, and the paladin prayer would likely be more my style, but I mean in over strength of the power, on its own ignoring my other powers. Do some classes have better powers than others?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-15, 05:05 PM
But only within a role?

So, say I'm a fighter, and I'm going to take 1 multiclass feat, and 1 power swapping feat. Would I end up getting a "better" power if I chose a wizard spell or a rogue exploit than a paladin prayer? Clearly it depends on what I want to do, and the paladin prayer would likely be more my style, but I mean in over strength of the power, on its own ignoring my other powers. Do some classes have better powers than others?

No, you'd get a different power. Comparing powers from different roles is usually an exercise in frustration. What you must do is look at the role and secondary role your main class has. If any of those overlap, then you can potentially compare the powers. Else, refrain from it.

As for which classes have better powers, yeah, sort of. The ranger and Warlock usually deal better straight up damage than the rogue, the fighter is a really brutal striker when built correctly while the paladin is of a more leadery build, the warlord functions as a defender with buffs, and the cleric more as a controller. Does that answer your question?

AslanCross
2008-06-15, 05:07 PM
"All powers are equal, but some are more equal than others" might actually be a proper answer here.

Saph
2008-06-15, 05:12 PM
Short answer is no. Some classes have certain powers that are way better than others.

For instance, the Ranger power Twin Strike is better than Careful Strike in every way, so every archer ranger and every TWF ranger will have exactly the same at-wills. On the other hand, wizards have five fairly useful at-wills, each of which does a specific thing, so two wizards can play very differently.

Comparing different class powers to each other, though, is much more difficult. Some powers are definitely better than average, but as far as I know no class has universally stronger powers.

- Saph

Goober4473
2008-06-15, 05:14 PM
The reason I ask is because I'm considering an alternate to LA for 4.0, where a powerful race has special racial powers that are of course beyond the power level of a normal player race, but instead of losing levels, they give up powers.

For example, a harpy might give up an at-will power to get a weak version of Alluring Song, and their level 1 encounter power to get Deadly Screech, and then they'd get normal racial abilities, including a low fly speed, some thunder resistance, and claws. Then they could take feats to improve these racial traits and the at-will power (like from 5 to 10 thunder resistance, from 6 to 8 fly speed, etc.), and at higher levels they could replace their level 1 version of Deadly Screech with a higher level version just like they would replace their level 1 power normally. And then finally, there would be a Harpy paragon path that would perhaps give them Bloodfire Harpy abilities.

But that all goes to hell if some classes would be giving up better powers than other. Like, if you're a fighter, and you don't give up much, it could be unbalanced compared to the warlock who gives up better powers for the same racial abilities.

But if all powers are roughly equal, all I have to do is balance racial powers with the powers of the same level/type that's being given up in order to get said racial powers.

Edea
2008-06-15, 05:53 PM
Whoa, fly speed? As in, constant flight? Sign me up O_O.

Goober4473
2008-06-15, 07:59 PM
Well, that's just the first example I could come up with. The fly speed would probably cost a one or two utlility powers, so you may have to be at least like 6th level or something

Armads
2008-06-16, 12:50 AM
Definitely not. The rogue's level 29 power (the 7W one) is better than the fighter's equivalent. 10d6 more damage (more with the backstabber/shadow assassin) beats being able to reuse it if you miss.

JaxGaret
2008-06-16, 12:55 AM
Definitely not. The rogue's level 29 power (the 7W one) is better than the fighter's equivalent. 10d6 more damage (more with the backstabber/shadow assassin) beats being able to reuse it if you miss.

Note however that the Fighter gets a 29th level daily, Storm of Destruction, that has the capability of doing more damage than the Rogue's... if there are two enemies to attack.

No Mercy is simply a solid, Reliable chunk of damage. If it did as much damage as the Rogue's power and were Reliable, it would be overpowered.

Goober4473
2008-06-16, 01:03 AM
Definitely not. The rogue's level 29 power (the 7W one) is better than the fighter's equivalent. 10d6 more damage (more with the backstabber/shadow assassin) beats being able to reuse it if you miss.

Actually, it only amplifies a class feature, rather than adding 10d6 damage by virtue of itself, so the power isn't that much better, simply being "double the effect of a class feature." Still a bit better, it seems, but not outstandingly.

TheOOB
2008-06-16, 01:16 AM
There are defiantly some powers that are better then other equal level powers, and there are defiantly powers I personally would virtually always pick over other powers, but there are very few powers I look at and say "There is no way anyone will every take that power/anyone who takes that power is shooting themselves in the foot".

A huge factor in what powers you pick is simply what kind of build you are running. Most classes either have a)two different stats the control there powers (ie cleric powers are either based on str or wis) or b)there are different build options that make some powers better(warlocks gain benefits for picking encounter powers from their pact). This makes it hard to compare powers, because most powers that would be bad for you are simply not for your build.

It should be noted that classes tend to do very different things with their powers so it's hard to compare any two classes. Suffice it to say each class performs well at their role, and no class will every feel useless when fighting alongside another class.

Armads
2008-06-16, 01:17 AM
No Mercy is simply a solid, Reliable chunk of damage. If it did as much damage as the Rogue's power and were Reliable, it would be overpowered.

The fighter's power is really boring (along with Godstrike). The paladin's "7W" attack has a blind effect, the rogue's one adds a crapload of damage, while the fighter's power just deals 7W damage, with no other effects.

A possible scenario (although quite unrealistic, it's just a comparison).
Paladin: Powerful Faith! *hits* 7W +str mod damage. And then he rolls against all enemies within 50ft of him, blinding them if he hits with another roll.
Rogue (having gained combat advantage from blind thing): Assassin's Point! *hits/misses* Deals a crapload of damage (even on a miss, it's half of a lot of damage).
Fighter: NO MERCY!!!oneshift1 *hits* (if he misses, he can just cry, because he didnt even deal damage to his enemy, while the rest would've done damage). 7W + str mod damage. Joy.

Reliable isn't even such a great thing, since most of them still deal half damage on a miss.

There are also rather broken power combos that already exist, like the Divine Regeneration + Seal of Binding combo, which kills any Solo monster with no escape on a successful hit (unless you're really, really, really wise, then you'd might kill yourself due to your great wisdom).

JaxGaret
2008-06-16, 01:28 AM
The fighter's power is really boring (along with Godstrike). The paladin's "7W" attack has a blind effect, the rogue's one adds a crapload of damage, while the fighter's power just deals 7W damage, with no other effects.

A possible scenario (although quite unrealistic, it's just a comparison).
Paladin: Powerful Faith! *hits* 7W +str mod damage. And then he rolls against all enemies within 50ft of him, blinding them if he hits with another roll.
Rogue (having gained combat advantage from blind thing): Assassin's Point! *hits/misses* Deals a crapload of damage (even on a miss, it's half of a lot of damage).
Fighter: NO MERCY!!!oneshift1 *hits* (if he misses, he can just cry, because he didnt even deal damage to his enemy, while the rest would've done damage). 7W + str mod damage. Joy.

Reliable isn't even such a great thing, since most of them still deal half damage on a miss.

I think you're discounting Reliable a little bit. If you miss (and you will miss), it's great to just be able to use your top-level daily power again.

As I noted, Storm of Destruction is the big damage power for Fighters at that level, not No Mercy, if you're going by strict damage output. You're comparing apples to oranges.


There are also rather broken power combos that already exist, like the Divine Regeneration + Seal of Binding combo, which kills any Solo monster with no escape on a successful hit (unless you're really, really, really wise, then you'd might kill yourself due to your great wisdom).

Yeah, Seal of Binding is really nice, and open to abuse.

Goober4473
2008-06-16, 01:53 AM
I think what I'm trying to ask isn't if all powers are equal to all characters, but rather is the loss of one or more powers an equal hit to all classes? If you say lost your level 1 encounter power, one of your at-will powers, and your level 6 utility power, would your class determine how much that hurts you, or would all classes be losing about the same amount from that? Would a rogue become equally less strikery as a fighter would defendery?

Let's assume for now the benefits you're getting in exchange (in this case racial abilities) are equally useful for all classes.

Orzel
2008-06-16, 01:58 AM
Each class uses it's powers different and needs different powers. A fighter is a defender. So is a paladin. But they do their jobs differently.

A fighter defends by being the "Kill me now" guy. He beats the crap outta people while marking them. He does this by dealing large amounts of damage and pushing/tripping people. His powers need to be damaging and pushy.
A paladin defends by making everyone else harder to kill. He debuffs foes and buffs allies. His powers need to hold some disabling effect or a minor buff.

The fighter is not trying to restain or blind foes. He's a-coming for your wizard, he wants EVERYBODY to know, and he dares you all to stop him. Pure damage effects is fine for him. Deal a lot of damage + mark until the fights over.
The paladin need more than damage because that's not his style. A bunch of pure damage is not his way. Deal a bit of damage + buff/debuff until the fights over.

JaxGaret
2008-06-16, 02:03 AM
I think what I'm trying to ask isn't if all powers are equal to all characters, but rather is the loss of one or more powers an equal hit to all classes? If you say lost your level 1 encounter power, one of your at-will powers, and your level 6 utility power, would your class determine how much that hurts you, or would all classes be losing about the same amount from that? Would a rogue become equally less strikery as a fighter would defendery?

Let's assume for now the benefits you're getting in exchange (in this case racial abilities) are equally useful for all classes.

In short, yeah, pretty much.

Every class likes their encounter powers just as much as any other class; same goes for dailies and utilities.

The at-wills are a different matter. Some of the classes, like the Ranger, can do just fine with only one at-will. Some classes, like the Wizard, will really hurt from losing an at-will.

Goober4473
2008-06-16, 02:34 AM
Yeah, I was thinking of avoiding replacing at-wills as much as possible. I imagine races could also have alternate powers, which would simply be added to your list of choices. So you could take a Harpy at-will at level 1, but you could also never take it, or retrain into it later, or whatever.

I think I'll whip up my harpy example soon and post it in Homebrew. We'll see how it goes.

Roderick_BR
2008-06-16, 06:35 AM
The fighter's power is really boring (along with Godstrike). The paladin's "7W" attack has a blind effect, the rogue's one adds a crapload of damage, while the fighter's power just deals 7W damage, with no other effects.

A possible scenario (although quite unrealistic, it's just a comparison).
Paladin: Powerful Faith! *hits* 7W +str mod damage. And then he rolls against all enemies within 50ft of him, blinding them if he hits with another roll.
Rogue (having gained combat advantage from blind thing): Assassin's Point! *hits/misses* Deals a crapload of damage (even on a miss, it's half of a lot of damage).
Fighter: NO MERCY!!!oneshift1 *hits* (if he misses, he can just cry, because he didnt even deal damage to his enemy, while the rest would've done damage). 7W + str mod damage. Joy.

Reliable isn't even such a great thing, since most of them still deal half damage on a miss.

There are also rather broken power combos that already exist, like the Divine Regeneration + Seal of Binding combo, which kills any Solo monster with no escape on a successful hit (unless you're really, really, really wise, then you'd might kill yourself due to your great wisdom).
Gotta remember that the fighter's abilities are more passive in nature. You are not dealing OMGd6 points of damage, you are countering attacks that the enemy is doing, so your allies have the chance to do their stuff. The fighter uses steady damage source (compared to strikers and even the paladin), for superior resistance, something that works better in 4E than 3E.

And adding to TheOOB's reply, some powers are made to synergy better with his own class. Sometimes a wizard's spell may not be very useful to a fighter, that is better off picking a ranger or rogue's exploit, even if said spell works fine for the wizard himself. It's all a matter of one-on-one basis.