OOTS #567 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Bellmaethorion]

On the one side, I have to say "Go Belkar:smallbiggrin:"
but on the other, I hope they didn't need the Oracle for something else...
and now the big question, why didn't the scaly little lawyer see his own death coming?

[Aerysil]

I feel so lead on and deceived... :tongue:

[Chaman]

Nice I finally get the last strip title! :smallsmile:
the Oracle rules!!!!
Nice prophecy

[GrandDukeJerot]

Loved this one. The convoluted answers proving Belkar to cause all of their death was great. Not to mention the foreshadowing of Vaarsuvius' end by his hand. And proving that he would kill the Oracle? Priceless.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow! This one was a shocker for me. The follow up question is whether their trip to the Oracle was for nothing.

On an related issue, I am surprised that the Oracle didn't have better personal protection. Maybe a replacement Oracle is on call?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Great comic as always!
Lets hear it for the bloodthirsty halfling mucking things up for the entire party!

Also, Roy is no longer transulcent in panel 13. Is this Artist Error or something I should be making a Speculation thread about?

[Forum Explorer]

Great Comic!:smallbiggrin:

And first time I managed to call something too, Booya! :smallbiggrin:


Also why do I think that was a gigantic poke at these forums? :smalltongue:

[FatJose]

I'm going to assume that Belkar has Kobolds as his favored enemy

[Nomadic]

I love how he technically caused the death of everyone else, and literally caused the death of the oracle.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

HOLY FLUTTERING KOBOLD DUST!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE BELKAR....HE DIDN'T...NO... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[DrivinAllNight]

F%#& Yeah, Go Belkar, :)

[Marcian_Tobay]

I literally applauded when I read this. I couldn't help. It's absolutely perfect in every way. This is not hyperbole. The writing in this comic factors in what the fans wanted to read, a brilliant explanation, humor, ominous foreshadowing (a la A Series of Unfortunate Events' infamous "impatient characters interrupting plot points), and a forwarding of the story.

This was a work of a truly inspired writer.

[Ent]

Looks like Roy is corporeal in the 14th... maybe he broke on through to the otherside.

[DrivinAllNight]

(snip)

Also why do I think that was a gigantic poke at these forums? :smalltongue:

It was more of a 'shthlunk' at this forum, or just a great stab, either way, pure golden :belkar:

[mroozee]

So the Oracle is dead.

New loony theory:

Haley and/or Belkar hang out in the Oracle's tower pretending to be the Oracle, offering nonsense predictions to pick up some extra cash (or a favor should a high-level cleric come by).
I'm still hoping that V's familiar is hanging around the Sunken Valley after fleeing the battle in Azure City.

[TigerHunter]

:belkar:: So hey, why haven't I gotten to kill anyone yet?
Oracle: Oh, you're back. You caused Roy's death by giving him the Ring of Jumping. Your prophesy's been fulfilled.
:belkar:: WHAT?! That was it?!
Oracle: Maybe.
:belkar:: *stab*
Oracle: I would like to change my 'maybe' to a 'no'. *dies*
This is about as close to calling something as I'll get. So: Called it!

[Vrek]

Saw the ending coming, along with half of the forum. Still freakin' great though. Pokin' fun at all the speculation here, then just offing him. Perfect.

But we must focus on the real issue here! Obviously O'Chul's holy paladin mount is... uhm... This is a tough one. How about... The Oracle's hat?
Ok ok, here we go:

But we must focus on the real issue here: O-Chul's holy paladin mount obviously is the Oracle's pointy hat!

[DanShive]

Ok, they CAN'T let that slide >_<

[Sturmjaeger]

I wonder if the Oracle saw that one coming.

[Mawhrin Skel]

HOLY FLUTTERING KOBOLD DUST!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE BELKAR....HE DIDN'T...NO... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Considering what he did to that gnome merchant, this action was entirely in character.

[Ghastly Epigram]

Even though I knew it was all coming, it was still awesome. :smallbiggrin: Judging the Oracle's expression in the third to last panel, I suspect he saw it coming. Whether he REALLY saw it coming, as in looked into the future, I do not know.

And along with the gnome this looks to be building up to a mega confrontation with Belkar. I hope so, that would be interesting.

[Jonathan327]

Success! Victory Belkar.

[Dacia Brabant]

Definitely a "Take that!" moment and an excellent one at that (Rich vs. crazy forum theories as much as Belkar vs. Oracle).

Haley's got to do something with Belkar after this though, I have to think.

[Dentarg]

Belkar, it's about time that kobold died.

- Dentarg

[BooTheHamster]

OMSFSDFJFSZFHARJSDHJSFHSXJFXJHJJJCXG

That was... either awesome or terrible. BELKAR KILLING SPREE FTW!!!

I also like how Belkar just stares at him in the last panel. I would have thought he'd smile more at the death of the smart ass kobold. But, what can you do?

[David Argall]

So we seem to be on track for...
Haley: Look, I know you were upset, but couldn't you have waited until we asked our questions?

Belkar: Aw, if he couldn't predict his own demise, his answers weren't worth much.

Party exits, stage left.
High level cleric enters stage right: Somebody wanted me to Raise Dead on a Kobold?"

Now those thinking that Belkar is going to off V had best note the distinctly loose dodge the Oracle used in regards to Miko's horse. That is not promising to the idea that Belkar is going to be using weapons to shorten the lifespan of V.

[FoE]

Heh. Didn't see that one coming. :smallamused:

[LuisDantas]

A momentous strip.

First of all, it leads us to wonder (again) if the party's influence over Belkar is worth the trouble. I am actually surprised that Belkar, Haley and even the Oracle himself aren't buying the explanations; I certainly find them all quite convincing, in fact.

Then again, there's the hint (inconclusive IMO) that Belkar might lead to Varsuuvius' death eventually. But for all we know he was about to explain that V won't die because of Belkar, ever.

From a plot perspective, the Oracle has just been removed as a possible Deus Ex Machina. More subtly, there is also now concrete reason to wonder how reliable his prophecies are; if he can't use them to protect his own life, maybe they aren't very useful after all.

[Paragon Badger]

I wonder if the Oracle saw that one coming.

Probably, Hence his attempted bluff check. Apparantly he didn't roll so well. :smalltongue:

[HUMVEE Driver]

Whoooo Hoo!!!

Finally back on track, I think. Some loose ends were tied up, the story progressed, it was a FAST new comic, it was a long comic, and that pompous ass of a kobold got exactly what he deserved. As some have mentioned, I wonder if he saw THAT coming...

Now the discussion about if Belkar really did cause any or all of those deaths. I say no.

A great spot to be.

[Wolfprint]

Huh didn't see that coming. Well at least Belkar got his prophecy fulfilled.

But this casts doubt over the rest of the Order's prophecies. Now we don't know whether the Oracle was lying/fudging/telling the truth.

[Vulion]

Nice. I'll miss that kobold, he seemed like an avatar for a frustrated DM.

[Twin2]

Well at least this means the oracle might be able to get a chat in with roy as they are both now no longer among the living (in the metaphorical sense of course). :smallsigh:

[The Extinguisher]

Who called it? I had it in my head, but I figured it would happen after the questions.

Although, I predicted a return visit to kill the Oracle since he first appeared though.

Anyway, about V

V is working himself raw trying to contact Haley. If the Oracle told her a way to contact Durkon, he would have stopped. Belkar killing the Oracle means V will keep trying. I think he's going to die by overexhaustion

[Arkenputtyknife]

Then again, there's the hint (inconclusive IMO) that Belkar might lead to Varsuuvius' death eventually.
And maybe "eventually" isn't so far away…
…since V seems to be working himself to death trying to find Haley and Belkar.
Darn! Ninja'd!

[Lunaya]

Though it goes against every instinct I possess as a good-aligned female, I have to say it: I love Belkar. :smallbiggrin:

Still, I wish the Oracle had survived long enough to finish his prediction regarding Vaarsuvius. I'm curious as to how exactly Belkar would be responsible for V's death.

The way I see it, V is about to experience a severe health crisis due to overwork. Perhaps it will be the unexplained loss of the messenger birds that will push hir over the edge. If that's the case and Vaarsuvius dies, wouldn't it technically be Haley who's responsible? After all, she's the one who actually killed the birds.

[Gallanoth]

everyone who posted a theory on belkar's prophecy just got owned! Awesome Giant!

[Yendor]

Brilliant. That's a big ol' Take That at all the half-arsed explanations of Belkar's prophesy.

[Ganurath]

Ok, they CAN'T let that slide >_<*jawdrops at celebrity poster*

Also, f**k yeah Belkar!

[Kwarkpudding]

Loved ot, though I had hoped Belkar wouldn't start the killing until Haley and Celia were finished with their questions :smallsigh:

[Querzis]

This comic was so funny for reasons that were already explained by everyone else but I gotta add, I'm relieved. This comic prove Belkar wont go unpunished as I feared.

Haley is quickly losing her good part and if she didnt do anything about the gnome, she wont do anything about the Oracle. Celia aint strong enough to do anything about Belkar and shes a pacifist...but Roy is there. Roy watched the whole scene. And while it may wait until he get resurected, I know Roy wont let Belkar get away with this. I wonder if he can activate the mark while hes dead?

[Martok]

Yeah! Go Belkar! :smallamused:



Loved ot, though I had hoped Belkar wouldn't start the killing until Haley and Celia were finished with their questions :smallsigh:
Agreed. 'Twill be very interesting to see what happens now.

[Halvormerlinaky]

On the one side, I have to say "Go Belkar:smallbiggrin:"
but on the other, I hope they didn't need the Oracle for something else...
and now the big question, why didn't the scaly little lawyer see his own death coming?

He did. That was pretty much the point of the whole strip.



On an related issue, I am surprised that the Oracle didn't have better personal protection. Maybe a replacement Oracle is on call?

He was an oracle. He knew you can't mess around with fate. It was probably gonna happen no matter how he tried to defend himself.


I'm going to assume that Belkar has Kobolds as his favored enemy

Quite possible, considering his animosity towards them, but the Oracle has no class levels AND is a Kobold, and the Belkster is level 13 or so. Belkar didn't need any help killing him.


HOLY FLUTTERING KOBOLD DUST!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE BELKAR....HE DIDN'T...NO... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I truly hope this is some obscure form of sarcasm. Belkar is EVIL. And not just that, Chaotic EVIL. Rich has done everything to demonstrate this bar tattoo EVIL on his forehead. Just look at the gnome, or Roy's hearing in the afterlife. That halfling is a "tiny fire-breathing avatar of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)" minus the fire-breathing part, unfortunately.

[Fael IsilLuin]

Come on dudes!!!

The Oracle totally saw that one coming, that's why he was trying to convince Belkar that he "caused" the deaths of Roy, Miko and Miko's horse; hopinig that Belkar would asume that the prophecy was fullfiled and then to move on to something else to avoid the TRUE outcome of the prophecy: That Belkar would cause the death of the oracle.

(Hope you guys understand what I mean. Forgive my redaction, english is not my native language)

[Twin2]

Agreed. 'Twill be very interesting to see what happens now.

My guess Roy gets to have a chat with the now dead oracle.

[Axl_Rose]

awww poor oracle; aha; rather predictable though :smallbiggrin:

[Bernemer]

Just wondering: Shouldn't this killing of a living person activate the MoJ automatically or do I get this part of the plot wrong?

[ArmorArmadillo]

Honestly, I loved this stip...because it's that perfect combination of an author teasing the fans by addressing all sorts of complex interpretive theories, and then giving them the finger by having Belkar kill the oracle.

Really, this is what Haley gets for letting Belkar do whatever he wants.


I've noticed a strange trend, it seems like certain characters in OOTS who have been trouble are transitioning from just being caricatures of player types to being caricatures of really disruptive player behaviors.
We have:
Belkar: Always evil, but now actively killing plot relevant NPCs.
Vaarsuvius: Ignoring plot hooks and other party members.

Hmm...

[TigerHunter]

Just wondering: Shouldn't this killing of a living person activate the MoJ automatically or do I get this part of the plot wrong?
Maybe it did. It depends on whether the Oracle's tower counts as a town.

I doubt it though.

[Bitzeralisis]

Aww, the oracle died. Poor kobold!

[Ellen]

1) I do hope the Oracle made arrangements to get raised if he saw this one coming.

2) I do hope Roy gets a chance to chat with him.

3) I hope, if the Oracle gets raised and if he had a chat with Roy, he can get Roy raised as well (but, the way things have been going, I wouldn't bet on it).

4) Can't say I see this as the point where Belkar meets his own, early death, but Celia may be ready to take him on. Haley may also be thinking that, if it's a choice between Celia and Belkar, Celia is a lot more stable so long as littering and chocolate aren't involved.

[Nerd_Paladin]

They're not in a city.

I wonder if the rest of the group is going to reach a last straw with Belkar. He's increasingly out of control lately, even by regular Belkar standards.

[RTGoodman]

This one's title should have been "Belkar's Razor."

As in, "The simplest solution is often the best, and the simplest solution is often stabbing."

:smallbiggrin:

Nice one, Giant.

[Vikingkingq]

Belkar, you freaking idiot. Now you don't get to find out how to contact the rest of the group or how to raise Roy.

Honestly, I'm finding the drawn-out dead Roy to be reaching its limits in terms of enjoyability, much like the Mute-Haley. He's been dead for 124 strips, enough already!

[Shott]

That was a good one. I saw it coming about a panel away and just starting laughing. Good comic Giant!

[NikkTheTrick]

and now the big question, why didn't the scaly little lawyer see his own death coming?

Heh. Didn't see that one coming. :smallamused:
Actually, I think he did. Just decided to have some fun beforehand.

When Belkar stabbed him, the Oracle did not have :smalleek: expression ar any point (which he did every other time he was scared). In fact, in pannel where he is getting stabbed, Oracle's expression is quite peaceful, acceptive...

[Lord Seth]

This one's title should have been "Belkar's Razor."

As in, "The simplest solution is often the best, and the simplest solution is often stabbing."

:smallbiggrin:

Nice one, Giant."Belkar's Razor" would've been a funny title...

My comment on this comic: There's going to be some verbal wrangling next comic!

[Klose_the_Sith]

Great comic as always!
Lets hear it for the bloodthirsty halfling mucking things up for the entire party!

Also, Roy is no longer transulcent in panel 13. Is this Artist Error or something I should be making a Speculation thread about?

Oooooooooooooooooh

[dragongirl13]

Aw, man! *sniffle* I liked the oracle, he was funny. "You mammals are disgusting when you mate..." I couldn't agree more.

Crap, now they're not going to get their questions answered.

[horus02]

oh, you just have to love this little beast^^

GO BEKLAR GO!!!

it's always worth to have a halfling in party who has deep seated emotional promblems... he just throws them at everyone. who would've thought that deep seatet emotional problems look like daggers?

[Single_Lupus]

I think the most pressing question that needs to be addressed at this point is, "What is Belkar going to make out of the oracle's head?"

[Kato]

Woohoo, great strip again! Though, some of us predicted the 'you killed Roy! - WHAT?! Never - blabla, explanation, bla - ... *stab*' scene, we did hardly think of it being a bluff. Or even seriously taking all the other facts into account ^^'''
Go on like that, I wanna know what's going on without the oracle ^^ (And how the girls blame B for getting his fair revenge)
(Why does B get to kill any possible kobold in the strip? I mean, not that they ddon't deserve it, but still...

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm sad about the Oracle's death. I'm not sure how it was a dig at the forums considering how the theories about Belkar causing Roy and Miko's deaths both make perfect sense (the fact is that Roy wouldn't have fought Xykon without the Ring of Jumping, and Miko wouldn't have seen the Order as evil if it wasn't for Belkar).

[Trazoi]

Aww, what have you got against kobolds? :smallfrown:

I kind of saw this coming, but I didn't want the poor Oracle to snuff it. I too hope he made arrangements, although I can sort of see if he didn't. Being able to see the future is a real downer when you know exactly how you're going to die.

My thoughts on possibilities on what's going next...

I'm wondering if this might be the final straw that leads to Belkar's Mark of Justice being activated. He might not be in a city, but he is in the presence of Roy who has the command word to trigger the thing. And with Belkar being generally kill crazy and the kobold Oracle giving a few good reasons for Roy to be pissed off with Belkar, Roy might just do it.


Oh, and I loved the whole theory debate. I remember bringing up that exact same Miko argument as a counter to the "Belkar caused the death of Roy argument", as Belkar's statement "That's even dumber than the first one!" was exactly the response I was trying to get :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't Belkar need to be able to hear Roy for the command word to work? I'm assuming he does, but I'm not sure about how the MoJ works.

[factotum]

I'm sad about the Oracle's death. I'm not sure how it was a dig at the forums considering how the theories about Belkar causing Roy and Miko's deaths both make perfect sense (the fact is that Roy wouldn't have fought Xykon without the Ring of Jumping, and Miko wouldn't have seen the Order as evil if it wasn't for Belkar).

The Oracle himself didn't really believe those explanations--he was just trying to get Belkar to believe them so he wouldn't kill him. He failed, obviously.

Anyway, definitely a LOL at this one, and this makes, what, four updates on the trot? The Giant is going like a train right now!

[Liwen]

Roy's dead, (still and it's starting to get a long time to change that) So he can't activate the mark.

the closest high level cleric in the area is... Redcloak. Mhh now that would be a good twist. And he would need to bring Xykon's phylactery with him to raise Roy. LICH SOUL SMASHING COMING UP NEXT STRIP!!!

[Halvormerlinaky]

Aw, man! *sniffle* I liked the oracle, he was funny. "You mammals are disgusting when you mate..." I couldn't agree more.

Crap, now they're not going to get their questions answered.

That's what we authors call "adding difficulty/complexity to the story." But it can be overdone. And I agree that it's about time Roy gets Raised.

[Hallavast]

The Oracle himself didn't really believe those explanations--he was just trying to get Belkar to believe them so he wouldn't kill him. He failed, obviously.


Which goes to show that there is no real, conclusive forshadowing about V. Even if V dies of old age, there is still enough flawed causality to trace it back to being Belkar's fault. It proves nothing. Nice one, Giant.

Also, if the Oracle indeed saw his own death coming and did so very little to stop it, then there's a very poetic undertone to his last words... Well done, Giant. Subtle.

[Trazoi]

Speculations ahoy!


Wouldn't Belkar need to be able to hear Roy for the command word to work? I'm assuming he does, but I'm not sure about how the MoJ works.
Dunno. All I know is that Roy says in strip #295 that he has "a command word to activate it". I don't know if command words have to be heard by the recipient for them to work.

I'm assuming in this case it works based on plot - if this is the time Rich wants to activate it, it'll work. Otherwise it won't (or Roy won't even bother, of course!) I do strongly suspect that the Mark of Justice will go off at some time, just because it's there, waiting, yearning to be set off.

Plus I just want to see the nasty little halfling squirm. :smallamused:

[Selene]

Well, if Roy can activate the Mark, it might just clue them in that he's standing right there.

[Tempest Fennac]

Considering what Belkar's like, wouldn't he have killed the Oracle without the explanations as well, though? I still don't see how Belkar coulnd't be classed as responsible for Miko and Roy's deaths, though (it was pushing it with Windstriker due to him already being a Celestial creature, though).

I know what you mean about the MoJ as well (I assumed it would go off a little bit before Belkar died).

[Raging Gene Ray]

I think the most pressing question that needs to be addressed at this point is, "What is Belkar going to make out of the oracle's head?"

A puke-bucket for when he gets deathly sick from the MoJ being activated.

[Wixit]

You had me going G. I really thought you'd go for one of the many... interesting... theories that were posted here. Belkar stabbing the Oracle could very well be Belkar stabbing the forumites.

And the girls will let this slide. Close quarters, not much room to fly around, and lets not forget halfling rage jumping attack. And in the wilderness of D&D, might makes right. Haley will drop the subject soon enough on account of being Chaotic, and Celia is hardly in a position to make demands.

Once they ressurect Roy, though... he may decide to kill him himself, but that wouldn't be consistent. He took him along to contain and better him, not kill him. Something much worse has to happen for Roy to really consider it, like, say... the murder of Celia.

[Daen]

Loved it, as usual. :smallbiggrin:

[dogmac]

You know, Haley, if you were to strangle Belkar until he was ALMOST dead, there is every chance that he might see Roy.

Got to be worth a shot, right?

[Liwen]

Something much worse has to happen for Roy to really consider it, like, say... the murder of Celia.

:smalleek: But if Celia dies, Roy won't have his happy ending :smalleek:

[HellFireXS]

The Oracle definitely knew what was about to happen and he was trying to change the future by convincing Belkar that the prophecy was already fulfilled and that Belkar didn’t have to kill him to fulfill it. Bu that didn’t work so the Oracles next plan was to tell Belkar that he would be directly responsible for V's death (even if it wasn’t true) so Belkar might have been satisfied with that and left the Oracle alive.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought it was Elan who was supposed to get a happy ending. Shouldn't the Oracle have done something more pro-active if he's main aim was to avoid being killed? If he could see into the future, surley he would have realised that Belkar wouldn't care about whether he'd already killed some of the eople on he's list (especially since predicting Belkar's responces shouldn't have been too hard).

[David Argall]

Belkar, you freaking idiot. Now you don't get to find out how to contact the rest of the group or how to raise Roy.

Honestly, I'm finding the drawn-out dead Roy to be reaching its limits in terms of enjoyability, much like the Mute-Haley. He's been dead for 124 strips, enough already!
Sorry, you have a good 20 strips to wait, if you are lucky.

[Aron Times]

Damn. I was hoping for Roy to get raised soon, but I guess Belkar threw a wrench at this plan.

[nli10]

But this casts doubt over the rest of the Order's prophecies. Now we don't know whether the Oracle was lying/fudging/telling the truth.

If you are presuming that they sat down and told the Oracle all about Roy & Miko and all the other detail he recounted while trying to convince Belkar the prophecy had already finished and he then had time to piece them all togeher to try to make a convincing story to stop Belkar finishing the prophecy in the real way...

THe Oracle knew about events outside of his control, he knew about his own demise, and it;s safe to say he was rich enough to arrange for resurrection at a pre-ordained time. Lets just hope it's not a Kobold Cleric...

[Wixit]

:smalleek: But if Celia dies, Roy won't have his happy ending :smalleek:

Luckily for our heroes, heaven is a proven fact in D&D. Everyone (barring The Belkster, for obvious reasons) will have a happy ending. Whether the "ending" means "ending of the story" or "ending of the life" doesn't really matter - they all get to enjoy endless pleasures in their appropriate good aligned heaven, and Roy and Celia get to live (die?) happily ever after in LG heaven.

[Karellen]

The Oracle isn't very intelligent.

Because, after all, to start with the only thing Belkar wanted was his money back. Instead of saying, "OK, my bad, that prophecy didn't work, funny world ainnit, here ya go", he started arguing his case. With false arguments, to boot. So, rather than genuinely trying to avert his fate - by denying his own visions - he actively worked to fulfill them by arguing for them, provoking Belkar to kill him.

Also, really they're probably better off without a new set of prophecies. The answers the Oracle gave them ranged from mocking to useless, and apparently open to interpretation to boot - and either way, none of them gave any one of them any useful information of any kind. (Well, I guess Roy located Xykon in this manner, but that's the only one...) At any rate, judging by the answers he's given them before, even if they did ask him -

"How are we going to contact Durkon?"

"In a manner appropriate to the plot at that particular distant instance. Next, please."

So yeah, go Belkar, that annoying little twerp deserved death.

[Kanthalion]

I totally agree that the Oracle was trying to change his fate with those convoluted explanations for how Belkar "caused" those other deaths, but as evidenced by his last line, he knew it wouldn't work in the end.

also, d'ya think Belkar'll get a ding from that?

[KernelReefer]

I think it's important to note (and I don't think anybody has) that the Oracle caused his own death. If he had not said "yes," Belkar would not have found his explanations infuriating enough to fulfill the prophecy by stabbing the oracle. He wouldn't have asked for his money back or stabbed the Oracle if the Oracle didn't say that he would cause the death of one of the mentioned characters.

Mind you, he may have been in a bind because absent the prophecy, Belkar may have killed any of the mentioned people.


In particular, he may have killed V with or without the "Yes" response (notably, without--his character interactions with V wouldn't have changed much because of "no," would it have? Would he have tried to prove the Oracle wrong?) Maybe the existence of this bind proves that V will be killed by Belkar.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Great comic but if I was Haley I would take a big 5 ft step away from Belkar just now. Killing the oracle of Tiamat can't be a smart thing to do...and the oracle did imply that Belkar would not live to his his next birthday...

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point, KernelReefer (I'm tempted just to assume that Belkar caused the death of everyone based on how and why they died). My issue with the idea of the prophersy applying solely to the Oracle is that he did such a poor job of preventing Belkar from killing him (if your theory is right, he wouldn't have had much choice in the matter, though).

[shylocxs]

First, thanks for the fast and furious pace of new strips showing up... making me super happy.

Second, HOOOYA, Belkster!

[Itdano]

After the loose interpretations of events the Oracle offered up as evidence of his prophecies coming true, I'd have stabbed him too.

[Kgw]

Note to oracles: you can't win your own predictions. The harder you try, the sooner you'll make it happen.

Great strip. And another show on how the Giant close what it seemed "loose ties".

[dish]

I was really hoping this wouldn't have to happen. Oh well... farewell oracle.
Maybe Roy'll get some questions answered even if nobody else does.

[Brasswatchman]

Huh. Weird. Is it me, or does Belkar look slightly hurt by the implication that he was responsible for Roy's death? Or am I just reading too deeply into the motivations of said thrill-killing, min-maxed halfling?

Anyway, brilliant stuff. Can't wait to see what happens next.

[Athaniar]

The Oracle dies and ascends to take his place at the right side of the Dragon Queen. Or, and that would be more fun, he too becomes a ghost and proceeds to annoy Roy.

[Lunaya]

Huh. Weird. Is it me, or does Belkar look slightly hurt by the implication that he was responsible for Roy's death? Or am I just reading too deeply into the motivations of said thrill-killing, min-maxed halfling?
I thought he looked more surprised than anything. Belkar had a similar look on his face when the Oracle said that he was also responsible for Miko's death.

[warmachine]

The Oracle's arguments reminds me of the arguments in this forum, which I thought were an abuse of logic.

The Oracle should have learnt better rules lawyering. He should have said that Belkar's question made no mention of a completion date, explicitly or implicitly, so he could complete it later. Belkar should be patient. Alas, Belkar is an impatient sociopath and likely stabbed the Oracle anyway but at least the Oracle would have won the argument.

[SoD]

Wow. The comic really is like the arguments on the forums.

Next Oracle arguments (sans can he see Roy) will be 'did those arguments for death of Roy/Miko/Windstriker count as fullfilled?'.

[Elfanatic]

I wonder what's going to happen to the Oracle's duckie?

[Fafnir13]

It plots its revenge.

[Eric]

This comic was so funny for reasons that were already explained by everyone else but I gotta add, I'm relieved. This comic prove Belkar wont go unpunished as I feared.

Haley is quickly losing her good part and if she didnt do anything about the gnome, she wont do anything about the Oracle. Celia aint strong enough to do anything about Belkar and shes a pacifist...but Roy is there. Roy watched the whole scene. And while it may wait until he get resurected, I know Roy wont let Belkar get away with this. I wonder if he can activate the mark while hes dead?

Look, this is D&D. Death is merely life's way of slowing level advancement. It's not a big deal.

Look at Roy. Is he going to stay dead (Actually, I'd like to see Roy come back as a Ghost, Xykon finds out that ghosts are immune from many of his cool powers and Roy gains some nifty ones himself. Xykon goes down...).

And you'll notice that ALL the others there were getting MIGHTY pissed off at the scaly little snake-oil merchant.

The Gnome was FAR more wrong than this, and this one is *nearly* justifiable to the others doing it themselves. Admittedly, they would probably only have beat the crud out of him and get a new set of answers on pain of, well, more pain.

[Delgarde]

After the loose interpretations of events the Oracle offered up as evidence of his prophecies coming true, I'd have stabbed him too.

Well, that's what usually happens when you try to bypass prophecy. Try to convince Belkar the prophecy is complete, and you provoke him into completing it.

[puzpuz]

Exactly how I thought. It was so expected... But, it was cool and important for the story. How bad they can't ask him now hot to raise Roy from the dead...

[raekuul]

Gah, Belkar, you impatient idiot. If it wasn't for the fact that the Oracle deserved it, I think we have another PC death within the next million strips.

[HOLEkevin]

Yeah, gotta say it's pretty much how I was expecting that one to end too. Still, it was satisfying to see happen. (Hey, the Oracle was getting on MY nerves too!)

Funny how the oracle didn't seem prescient enough to shut the hell up. 'Course now he'll be dead and able to interact with Roy, and maybe can give the big guy some useful advice.

[Ravenlord]

This is really getting kinda irritating. But I guess it will be interesting to see how far can Belkar get with killing everything in sight and getting away scot free with it...

[Bendal]

The Oracle definitely knew Belkar was going to kill him; that's why he was trying to defuse the halfling by telling him he had already fulfilled the prophecy by killing the other characters. He was hoping that if he convinced Belkar that the prophecy had been fulfilled, Belkar wouldn't kill HIM.

Didn't work.

[pendell]

:(

And here I was hoping for some more foreshadowing hints. Instead Belkar wants again kills off a character -- this time a semi-important one -- in a semi-random fashion.

It's pretty clear that without Roy to restrain him, Belkar's kilonazis just keep going up.

I wish I could say it was funny. But I'm just frustrated at Belkar. Were his player at my table, I'd be this close from taking his character sheet and making Belkar an NPC antagonist.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Caledonian]

1) Suggesting that the Oracle was worthless because he couldn't see his own death is silly. Clearly he anticipated that Belkar was going to kill him and was trying - however ineffectively - to prevent it.

2) Suggesting that the Oracle was worthless because he couldn't use his foreknowledge to prevent his death is also silly. If it were possible to avoid the predictions by changing things, they wouldn't be foreknowledge. It is also likely that casual choices people made would invalidate the predictions completely, eliminating their utility.

In most cases, people don't want true prophesies. They want to know what is likely so that they can avoid it, not what is inevitable. The inevitable can't be avoided or changed, so knowing about it does no good. In fact, true prophesies are necessarily self-fulfilling.

Now that the Oracle is dead, perhaps he will be able to hear Roy...

[fractal]

Luckily for our heroes, heaven is a proven fact in D&D. Everyone (barring The Belkster, for obvious reasons) will have a happy ending. Whether the "ending" means "ending of the story" or "ending of the life" doesn't really matter - they all get to enjoy endless pleasures in their appropriate good aligned heaven, and Roy and Celia get to live (die?) happily ever after in LG heaven.
You mean if their souls don't get eaten by the Snarl.

For those concerned about the Oracle, he clearly didn't place a high value on his own life, or else he might have stopped with the cracks on Belkar's intelligence. It seems likely that the Oracle gets general ideas of the future naturally, and precise answers to questions when in a trance. So he knew the answer to Belkar's question was yes, and thought it was probably his own death, but figured he might as well speculate as to other interpretations.

Personally, I'm disappointed that we didn't get to see if Celia could rules-lawyer a better question than Roy.

[Shatteredtower]

Definitely a "Take that!" moment and an excellent one at that (Rich vs. crazy forum theories as much as Belkar vs. Oracle).I'd rather give the Giant more credit than that. It would be rather pathetic to find yet another method to drag out your story for the sake of thumbing your nose at the readership.


The Oracle's arguments reminds me of the arguments in this forum, which I thought were an abuse of logic.What an illogical thing to write. :smallamused: Oracles twist logic all the time in mythology and fiction. It wouldn't surprise me for at least one of them to say, "That was how the prediction was fulfilled? Oh, come on..." during a more lucid moment.

The Oracle might consider such interpretations unworthy. The Giant might consider them cheap. If so, however, the history of recorded prophecy thumbs its nose at both of them.

[Oslecamo]

You're asking yourself the wrong questions.

What we should be discussin, is:

1-How much Xp will Belkar get for killin the oracle?

2-How much loot will they find?

Anyway, I agree that Belkar is geting more and more psycopath by the moment. If Roy doesn't return quickly to keep in check, Belkar will probably start murdering every other NPC they find.

[pendell]

The Oracle might consider such interpretations unworthy. The Giant might consider them cheap. If so, however, the history of recorded prophecy thumbs its nose at both of them.


QFT. I guess that's part of what's bothering me ... oracles such as the one at Delphi were legendary for their obtuseness.

Still, this is the second time that the Giant has done a little misdirection with his prophecy , then later brought out the 'real interpretation'. I'm thinking of the 'when the goat turns red strikes true' prophecy in Durkon's dungeon, which was first thought to mean the gryphon but later proved to involve the Linear Guild.

I'm going to be charitable and assume the Giant was not sending a big FU to his fans with all the theories ... although I confess I took it that way at first. Pondering, though, I realize that the Giant did this for the same reason he does most everything here ... for the funny. He was trying to make a joke. WTH is wrong with my sense of humor that I didn't find it funny?

Something else ... as far as I'm concerned the Giant has definitively established that there is no OOTS without Roy. Without Roy, Haley can't exercise leadership, Belkar goes on a murderous rampage, Durkon reverts to surly dwarf, V goes back to screwing up the intangible order of the universe when bored, and Elan reverts to happy child bouncing through life and causing grief for everyone he sees.

On the Origin of PCs spoiler


You know, exactly what they were before they joined OOTS


Without Roy, they are nothing. So can we raise Roy, already? Yeesh.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lira]

Yes!! I was getting worried he would kill V.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is an interesting idea about Roy staying as a Ghost (I wondered a while back if he'd come back as an Archon or som similar Celestial creatures due to the Oath and the threat that Xykon poses to the planet).

[factotum]

It seems likely that the Oracle gets general ideas of the future naturally, and precise answers to questions when in a trance.

He managed to look into the future and see the translations of Haley's gibberish while not in a trance...seems fairly precise to me!

[Albonor]

Soooo the main point of that comic for what's next was: Roy now knows Miko's dead?

Mount Celestia talk!

[gamerboy6000]

I hope the party has another way to find a good cleric.

[LuisDantas]

Am I the only one on the Oracle's side? :(

[Tom_Violence]

I'd rather give the Giant more credit than that. It would be rather pathetic to find yet another method to drag out your story for the sake of thumbing your nose at the readership.

What an illogical thing to write. :smallamused: Oracles twist logic all the time in mythology and fiction. It wouldn't surprise me for at least one of them to say, "That was how the prediction was fulfilled? Oh, come on..." during a more lucid moment.

The Oracle might consider such interpretations unworthy. The Giant might consider them cheap. If so, however, the history of recorded prophecy thumbs its nose at both of them.

I think its a bit of both. Rich evidently has his story planned out way ahead of time, but the exact script for each strip probably isn't. So I think things like this, and the previous 'How can Roy communicate to the living?' gags, are probably a strong nod to the community, although the overarching structure remains the same.

[khourytamarisk]

I know the strip is supposed to be funny, and I think Belkar is awesome, but, as a fan of kobolds, I'm sorely disappointed. :smallfrown:

[Gerrtt]

Absolutely fantastic today!

[Threeshades]

Im glad that scaly little bastid got what he deserved.

[veilrap]

Three cheers for Belkar. Really I don't understand what peoples beef with Belkar is. Belkar has been the same character since day one and personally I like him like that. He's funny, violent and a tad crazy. He's not "out of control". I mean what non-good character wouldn't get annoyed to the point of killing the Oracle at this point?

[sealemon]

***Applauds**

Nice one!

And, seriously people..."I wonder if the Oracle saw that one coming?" Really? You didn't read the oracle's dying last words, or sumthin? Classic case of trying to avoid the inevitable, this strip was.

[los olvidados]

Haven't see this brought up yet:

So, does the memory charm on the valley remain intact?

And if so, does this mean Belkar gets a free pass from the ladies once they leave the valley? :smallbiggrin:

[quick_comment]

A couple of people think Belkar's latest killing will lead to Belkar being punished for his actions. I don't see why that has to be true, and in fact I don't really want it to be. One thing that people are forgetting is that once they leave the Sunken Valley, they won't remember a thing.

Edit: Crap! Beaten to it by a minute.

[los olvidados]

Ha! :smalltongue: Synchronicity at its finest!

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh noes! The oracle is dead before questions were asked!

[Morgan Wick]

Because I'm working on an inconsistent Internet connection, this post takes into account no posts after midnight PT.

More evidence that Rich really does read the forums. That was practically a forum conversation. It's also plenty of fuel for speculation (vis-a-vis the speculation , between the "As for the elf" line and the question of whether or not the Oracle saw his own death coming.

My opinion is that he didn't, or else he would have known that he couldn't have prevented it no matter what he did. (Unless he's a fraud and "seeing it coming" has a different meaning.) On the other hand, the Oracle could have simply asked Belkar to be patient, but then Belkar could have responded with:
:belkar:: Be patient?!? Roy's dead and I don't know how that stupid paladin chick could have possibly survived all that nonsense with the gate considering I last saw her without her powers and in a prison tower, and if she's dead I'm probably not going to be able to kill that stupid horse of hers either. That leaves Vaarsuvius and you, and I know an all-seeing oracle like you wouldn't let yourself get killed needlessly, would you?
:haley:: Actually, since we're trying to get Roy raised - -
:celia:/:roy:: NO.

568 will now be a VERY interesting strip to see, but there is no chance whatsoever it can top this, at least in the eyes of most forumites. There will be plenty more Haley-Celia-Belkar arguing to go around - it's possible Belkar has now crossed even Haley's line. But see the spoiler for evidence that that may wait a strip (though it's more likely that the spoiler, if it happens, will itself wait):


My guess Roy gets to have a chat with the now dead oracle.

That sounds like a distinct possibility for 568 or 569.

[Remirach]

To tell the truth, a few panels into this one my eyes started to glaze over because the inevitability of Belkar killing the Oracle was transparently obvious. If this leads to something important -- if killing off Tiamat's representative is something that's actually relevant to the plot -- than this is a apt set-up. If it's just a Take That at the various forum theories, than it's just lame. I'd like to think there was a point to the sidetrack to Sunken Valley besides the opportunity for people to say "now shut the hell up already."

[Craig1f]

Huh didn't see that coming. Well at least Belkar got his prophecy fulfilled.

But this casts doubt over the rest of the Order's prophecies. Now we don't know whether the Oracle was lying/fudging/telling the truth.

It sounded to me like the Oracle was trying to convince Belkar that the prophecy was fulfilled to save his own life. I don't think the Oracle has deceived them.

What I'm wondering is if they'll remember killing the Oracle when they leave the valley.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Personally, I still feel that the Oracle's interpretations were valid. It was an "and/or" question, after all, and as he pointed out "cause" is a very vague word. It's just that his interpretations didn't necessarily mean "prophecy fulfilled and done with".

The points about Roy being able to speak with the Oracle miss something, and that's that I don't think the Oracle is Lawful Good. I'm not even sure Miko qualifies--I imagine the celestials are still arguing about it--so he might not be able to see her now either. I think Miko's story has been told and she shouldn't come back, but then, I'm not the author.

[Yendor]

To tell the truth, a few panels into this one my eyes started to glaze over because the inevitability of Belkar killing the Oracle was transparently obvious. If this leads to something important -- if killing off Tiamat's representative is something that's actually relevant to the plot -- than this is a apt set-up. If it's just a Take That at the various forum theories, than it's just lame. I'd like to think there was a point to the sidetrack to Sunken Valley besides the opportunity for people to say "now shut the hell up already."

Oh, I have no doubt there's an important plot point coming up here. But it was definitely an ideal opportunity to poke fun at some of the straw-clutching theories on the topic.

I don't think the Oracle will be meeting Roy, though. He's a worshiper of a Western god and quite likely Neutral alignment, so won't be headed for Roy's section of the afterlife.

[garylian]

Hell hath no fury like the Belkster after an oracle plays one too many word games with him.

He's evil, he's a jerk, and he's the most entertaining toon in the strip. GO BELKSTER!

[Fighteer]

Did you ever think that maybe the Oracle was bored of doing nothing but predicting other people's futures and could have welcomed the idea of someone finally killing him? Frank Herbert made a big point of this in his Dune series - the major plot point of Dune Messiah was that the main character locked himself (and the universe) into his own prophetic vision and couldn't escape. To paraphrase (since I don't have the book in front of me): "Most people who want to know the future really just want to know tomorrow's stock price. To know the future absolutely is to be utterly bored as everything you know is going to happen comes to pass without failure or possibility of change. Absolute prediction equals death." The major plot point of the next four books was humanity's leaders trying to break free of the curse of that prophetic vision.

So (ahem) if the Oracle really did have the power of absolute foreknowledge, he might have welcomed the chance to finally escape from it. His halfhearted attempt to dissuade Belkar was simply him playing out the role assigned to himself by his own prophecy.

Even given all of this philosophical rambling, I loved the strip. Up until the last set of panels, I actually thought the Oracle might convince Belkar that he'd fulfilled his prophecy. :smalltongue:

Still, while the Oracle's death does tie up one of the story's dangling plot threads, albeit a minor one, the mighty list of divergent story arcs that Rich has hung out shows no signs of winding to a close any time soon. Not that I mind reading them, though, since Rich's supply of jokes seems neverending as well.

[Trizap]

oh my gods......:smalleek::smalleek:

Belkar didn't kill one, he killed all three......

HILARIOUS!

[Skaven]

HOLY FLUTTERING KOBOLD DUST!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE BELKAR....HE DIDN'T...NO... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Took the words right out of my mouth =(

The Oracle was my favorite character, now the only thing I look forward to is belkars death, he just annoys me. 'I stab you and kill things randomly' just is not funny, and hasnt been for a long time.

[Lunaya]

A couple of people think Belkar's latest killing will lead to Belkar being punished for his actions. I don't see why that has to be true, and in fact I don't really want it to be. One thing that people are forgetting is that once they leave the Sunken Valley, they won't remember a thing.
Unless, of course, Belkar has activated the MoJ, as has been suggested before. If that happens, it will mean that Belkar is being punished either way. Haley and Celia may not know why they suddenly have a sick Halfling on their hands, but they'll know it was probably something he earned well. :smallsigh:

[Asarth]

The double-comic definitely had the feel to me that the oracle was so dead at the last panel of the first comic.

Before this, I was expecting that he would die after War and XPs was published, but before the next book was, so he would know what Haley said, but not know that Roy's ghost was there. But I guess he will just read the books in the afterlife or something, which doesn't explain why he couldn't see Roy's ghost.

Maybe his soul gets destroyed by the Snarl before then.

I was just under the assumption you can't see the future after you die.

Or just maybe after your soul is destroyed. But, in a world with resurrections, maybe he just can't see the future while he's dead, but can after he is resurrected.

[Shatteredtower]

Oh, I have no doubt there's an important plot point coming up here. But it was definitely an ideal opportunity to poke fun at some of the straw-clutching theories on the topic.Prophecy, like wish-making, is always all about the straws.

I suppose he could be beating us over the heads with the title of this strip, but that would be pretty daft for two reasons. First, Occam's Razor only applies to Belkar making sure he'll get his money's worth from his own point of view, because prophecy delights in making a mockery of such things.

And second, attempting to poke your forums almost always backfires. :smallwink:

[Liwen]

Next strip plot :

Belkar convince everyone that the Oracle was useless and they decide it's about time Roy kicks in again. So instead of trying to find the nearest good aligned cleric, they'll go after the one cleric they know can raise Roy and how to find him. Personnally, I can't wait for the Redcloak Haley Belkar Celia meeting.

Roy get raised, Tsukiko pops in with a squad of undeads and Xykon and Roy jumps out of the window right after smahsing Xykon's Phylactery to dust. the party follows Roy and Celia has to make a pretty good strenght check.

[Rad]

Why does everybody assume the oracle's deity to be Tiamat? Thakisis has the same appearance, the same copyright issues and has actually been mentioned by the characters of the strip!

[Doug Lampert]

Which goes to show that there is no real, conclusive forshadowing about V. Even if V dies of old age, there is still enough flawed causality to trace it back to being Belkar's fault. It proves nothing. Nice one, Giant.

Also, if the Oracle indeed saw his own death coming and did so very little to stop it, then there's a very poetic undertone to his last words... Well done, Giant. Subtle.
If you can see the future and it's avoidable then the "power" is worthless. I can make prophesies which may or may not actually come true.

If you can see the future and it's unavoidable then the power is quite useful since you can prepare for what you now know will happen.

Specifically, as many others have pointed out, you can have a cleric with a bag full of diamonds just outside the room.

[Shieldage]

Soooo the main point of that comic for what's next was: Roy now knows Miko's dead?

Mount Celestia talk!

Hmm, can her horse talk in the afterlife?

Why did the Oracle talk about the explosion as if Miko was a passive player, locked up, and not at the direct site of the explosion?


Belkar cares about V, right? Up until that moment he thought he still had a chance to kill Miko and the horse. Not wanting to be responsible for V's death by making hir last on the list after he failed to cause the death of the Oracle, he killed the Oracle.

Assuming that they'd have forgotten everything but the direct questions to the Oracle, even if the Oracle's prophecy was a direct contradiction to Belkar's eventual killing of V, once Belkar left he'd have forgotten that part, eventually found out Miko was dead, realized V was the last on the list except for one and come back and killed the Oracle anyway, probably without talking to him. He was just saving himself a trip. Of course, he wouldn't likely have thought it out to that length...


One possible way the Oracle could have saved himself was saying: "What, you think Roy's not going to get raised? You cause his second death. (thought bubble: (I can't believe he actually believed that, I'm saved)) "

[Dohmaker]

he meant mount celestia talk as in a talk with Miko on mount celestia, and not a celestial mount....

[Arkenputtyknife]

If you can see the future and it's avoidable then the "power" is worthless. I can make prophesies which may or may not actually come true.
On the contrary, such a power would be extremely valuable if the prophecy were "This is the outcome unless you take action," rather than "This might happen." The number of scenarios in which you could profitably change the future would be enormous.

Example: if the prophesy says you're going to be killed tomorrow by a hobbit (halfling! HALFLING!), you can put a crossbowman at the door and have him shoot any halfling that tries to enter. (Not that this would do much good in Belkar's case, unless it was an incredibly good crossbow, but you get the idea.) Without the prophecy, you die. It doesn't work if the prophecy is unavoidable.

[silvadel]

It is a very common theme in classical literature that oracles tend to eventually know when their death is going to come and the price of knowing the future in that regard is that they have no way of changing it -- no matter what they do they are doomed.

The oracle probably knew Belkar was going to kill him from the time they walked in the door(the first time). Belkar is the one sandaled halfling so to say.

Poor oracle tho -- he was one of my favorate characters.

Thing is also -- despite the provocations -- this is another "innocent" killed in cold blood by Belkar. Not only that but the oracle could have given them all kinds of information they needed to raise roy and now that opportunity has lapsed.

Of course there may be a lot of treasure around there if Haley thinks to look for it.....

The only hope Belkar has for survival in my eyes right now is that memory thing and that all this might be forgotten by Celia and Haley upon leaving sunken valley.

[Red XIV]

And the girls will let this slide. Close quarters, not much room to fly around, and lets not forget halfling rage jumping attack.
Two words: Sneak Attack. Belkar totally wouldn't see it coming, so if Haley did decide to do that, it would probably work.


And in the wilderness of D&D, might makes right. Haley will drop the subject soon enough on account of being Chaotic, and Celia is hardly in a position to make demands.
Haley's objections would probably be less about morality and more about practicality. The Oracle can't answer any questions if he's dead, thus rendering their trip a waste of time that could've been spent actually heading up to Cliffport.

As for Celia, just because she's unwilling to kill doesn't mean she can't or won't cause pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

[JoseB]

So (ahem) if the Oracle really did have the power of absolute foreknowledge, he might have welcomed the chance to finally escape from it. His halfhearted attempt to dissuade Belkar was simply him playing out the role assigned to himself by his own prophecy.


After seeing the strip, I suddenly had a hunch... Expounding upon the above comment by Fighteer...

What if the position of Oracle of the Sunken Valley is obtained in a similar way to that of Rex Nemorensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Nemorensis)?

The Rex Nemorensis was the priest of the temple of Diana Nemorensis (or Artemis, if you want to give her her Greek name), near Lake Nemi, in Italy. The priesthood for that particular temple was achieved in a very special way: The aspirant had to kill the previous priest in single combat, after which he would become the new priest... But only for as long as he would be able to fend off other aspirants.

Some traditions say that only fugitive slaves were allowed to try and obtain that position.

Soooo... What if, now that Belkar has killed the Oracle, we see Tiamat showing up and saying something to the effect of "well done, you are now my new Oracle"? Tiamat is an evil deity, so she wouldn't have trouble with Belkar becoming her new Oracle (the previous one didn't strike me as very Good, either).

The previous Oracle may have seen this coming, and may have thought that it was high time for a replacement to arrive. Staying put in the Sunken Valley and having to answer questions from people who arrive at all times is not exactly a good life... And I think that it definitely wouldn't be Belkar's idea of a good life! Unless he decided to kill everyone who came with questions for him, but then Tiamat might have something to say about it (that is not proper behaviour for an Oracle).

The previous comment by the Oracle about Belkar better enjoying his next birthday cake may mean then either that Belkar is going to be veeeeery miserable having to be the Oracle of the Sunken Valley, or that his behaviour as Oracle is so outrageous that Tiamat will arrange for a suitable "replacement" to show up and kill him.

EDIT: Also, this would neatly solve the impasse the group finds itself into after this (in my opinion impulsive and rash) action by Belkar: The Oracle is dead, long live the Oracle! Ask the questions to Belkar, the new Oracle of the Sunken Valley.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[DigoDragon]

Yes!! I was getting worried he would kill V.

Well, technically he still might.
Belkar can be linked to four of the five beings in question as to if he'll "Cause the death" of them. There's nothing that says the prophesy of linking Belkar to the death of V can be stopped by killing the oracle. What it could be though, is another interesting twist on the circumstances of how V dies. What I vastly enjoy about the prophesy is how well it managed to give the OotS the answers they asked for, but not necessarily what they wanted.

It's the twist of the words, a result of some very clever writing. :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

Why does everybody assume the oracle's deity to be Tiamat? Thakisis has the same appearance, the same copyright issues and has actually been mentioned by the characters of the strip!

So has Tiamat, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) and she's actually referred to as one of the Western Gods who created the world. Takhisis was only mentioned in a throwaway joke by the lawyer Mr. Jones.

Further, there are no copyright issues with Tiamat. Tiamat was invented by the ancient Babylonians, and their copyrights expired a long time ago. Takhisis was created by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, who sold the copyright to WOTC.

So, yeah. It's not really much of an assumption, except that we assume Rich didn't invent a world that has BOTH Tiamat and Takhisis.

[Lupy]

Wasn't that a little unusual for Belkar? I mean, he sure did take his time killing the Oracle, and he seemed too... reserved. And then he just walked up and stabbed the guy with one dagger without a threat or jump? Maybe he was just dissapointed... Or maybe he's growing even more evil!

@SPoD and Rad

Yes, Tiamat is uncopyrighted (like Zeus and Thor for instance), and yes, the founders sold my their beloved setting to Wizards. :smallfrown: (Does anyone know if they'll make it into 4th ed? I think that the new classes would be fun in Krynn.)

[recluso]

Evil as he is, Belkar is making himself quite usefull. First he provides a
donkey so they actually manage to transport Roy over thousand miles and now
he arranges they have enough money to pay to Raise Roy -- guessing that the
oracle is pretty rich.

In both cases without making the rest of OOTS responsible.

I think it would be funny if Celia is deemed sufficiently involved to level up
from the Oracle kill.

Could it be that (a) Celia levels up enough to take Scrying herself,
acquires a silver mirror from the oracle (b) Either enough time pas passed or
V is not hit by Cloister (c) V is breaking down and giving up on Scrying
complaining only Epic characters will be able to bridge the gap within OOTS
(d) Immediate after V's rant Celia, feeling still very uncertain and clumsy,
manages to scry. (e) Prompted by Haley Celia first scries on Elan, who, due
to V's failure, sort of gave up on seeing Haley, and has some -eh- friendly
contact with Therkla. (f) Celia is shocked by that and spends quite a while
trying to explain it to Haley, but fails, due to using too much euphemisms.
(g) OOTS regroups fairly soon after this and a few well choosen lies ensure
Haley and Elan happily continue their relation as if nothing happened.

[Emmerson Grant]

Meh.

I would have wanted a strip that advanced the plot.

[raphfrk]

This was a work of a truly inspired writer.

Yeah was pretty cool :p ... a total mockery of fan discussions on what the oracle meant :). You start reading it and think 'I knew it' and then it all falls apart :).

[thereaper]

Ha ha ha! Everyone was right! :smalltongue:

Belkar caused the death of Roy (and Miko, and Miko's stupid horse), but because that was such a cop-out answer (even if it was technically true), he ended up killing the Oracle! Priceless!

[Doug Lampert]

On the contrary, such a power would be extremely valuable if the prophecy were "This is the outcome unless you take action," rather than "This might happen." The number of scenarios in which you could profitably change the future would be enormous.

So? IF such a thing existed it would be useful. But name a myth, legend, or OotS comic that even SUGGESTS that such a thing is even vaguely possible.

Prophesy is either true or false. False is useless, true is unavoidable but useful.

Something else that does what you say would be useful, but it ISN'T prophesy since it makes no claim to be the actual future that's predicted.

DougL

[Lira]

Well, technically he still might.
[snip]Yes, I know. But I'm just happy that the prophecy is fullfilled so there's a reasonable chance that V might not get killed by him. Before it was looking like V was the last option in the prophecy and while the Oracle's comment about V in this one was kind of ominous, this strip still comes as a relief to me. :)

[warmachine]

I suspect Belkar is going to meet a bloody end. He has a nasty habit of needlessly murdering people, even for an adventurer, and has now killed a plot essential NPC. Belkar is looking like a liability. Sooner or later, the party or going to throw him to the wolves.

[David Argall]

Huh. Weird. Is it me, or does Belkar look slightly hurt by the implication that he was responsible for Roy's death? Or am I just reading too deeply into the motivations of said thrill-killing, min-maxed halfling?

You are reading too deeply. If he had not been interested in killing Roy, he would not have mentioned him on the original list.



this casts doubt over the rest of the Order's prophecies. Now we don't know whether the Oracle was lying/fudging/telling the truth.
He's an oracle. That means he told the truth. Period. That's what oracles do, tell the exact truth. [Now that by no means means he tells the honest truth. In fact, the presumption is that he doesn't. But any theory that says the oracle was mistaken or lying should be rejected out of hand.]

[Arkenputtyknife]

So? IF such a thing existed it would be useful. But name a myth, legend, or OotS comic that even SUGGESTS that such a thing is even vaguely possible.

Prophesy is either true or false. False is useless, true is unavoidable but useful.

Something else that does what you say would be useful, but it ISN'T prophesy since it makes no claim to be the actual future that's predicted.
Nowhere did I claim that such a thing existed, nor that it would be called "prophecy" if it did. My claim was that it would be a very valuable power—which Doug acknowledges. So, Doug, with whom exactly are you arguing?

Nevertheless, I strongly believe that Doug is in error. I'll have to come back to this later as it's going to need a fair bit of research and my services are needed elsewhere right now. In the meantime, I would suggest contemplating carefully (a) the notion that, in the entire vast history of human mythology and philosophy, such a thing has never been mooted; and (b) that the definitions of "prophecy" that I've seen so far do not appear to support Doug's assertions.

[Vreejack]

Come on dudes!!!

The Oracle totally saw that one coming, that's why he was trying to convince Belkar that he "caused" the deaths of Roy, Miko and Miko's horse; hopinig that Belkar would asume that the prophecy was fullfiled and then to move on to something else to avoid the TRUE outcome of the prophecy: That Belkar would cause the death of the oracle.

The Oracle was unable to see his own future directly. He admitted as much when he complained that he always got visitors at bath time. When he answered Belkar's question he obtained the answer by entering a special trance, probably allowing him to know the answer without knowing the details.

When the Oracle realized that Roy, Miko, Miko's horse and Vaarsuvius were too far removed to be Belkar's true victims, then---and only then---did he realize that he, the Oracle, was the intended target of the prophecy. Perhaps. Unless he could bluff his way out of it.

[TroyXavier]

Well, sometimes it's nice to have a comic that ends a lot of pointless speculation. Good comic.

[Red XIV]

I suspect Belkar is going to meet a bloody end.
You just figured that out? It's obvious that a character like Belkar is unlikely to have his death filed under "natural causes". Especially given the Oracle's previous implications that the Belkster's not going to live much longer.

[AceOfFools]

Rich, as much credit as you get, it's not enough.

You actually managed to take the most obvious outcome and turn it into a plot twist.

I saw that coming, yet couldn't believe it happened until I reread it three times.

Thank you, so much.

[silvadel]

Reminds me of when in a game like wizardry 7 you kill one of the NPCs and all of a sudden the game is no longer completable or is MUCH harder to complete.

[gornt]

I used to like Belkar, but this latest cold-blooded murder is too much.

He's gone from playfully funny to repellent.

[Draz74]

So ... after the big "revelation" Haley had about traveling to the Oracle, doing so needs to affect the plot in some meaningful way.

Belkar's prophecy being fulfilled more literally doesn't really count, since if that was the only reason for the group to return to the Oracle, Rich could have just given Belkar a "no" answer from the Oracle originally anyway.

So what real impact will this side quest have? I liked the idea that they'll pawn a fat load of loot off of the Oracle's treasure chamber. But somehow I doubt it. Haley now knows more about Roy & Celia's fling, but nothing she didn't already suspect. What else could it be?

Though, even if this whole quest does end up being superfluous, I won't complain too much, because the Test of the Memory was hilarious.

Funny that the Oracle didn't give us any more hints about the Belkar's Impending Death semi-prophecy from before ... that's an annoying "loose thread."

[silvadel]

silly speculation


:haley: Lets go into this room marked "treasure room"

:haley: Darn -- all that is here is an envelope with your name on it belkar.

:belkar: Reads the note: If you are reading this that means that you have killed me as I saw in your prophecy a year ago. I have only one thing to say to you [command word for the mark of justice].

:belkar: <crumbles to the ground>

[Tobrian]

After this, and with all the nastiness Belkar's been up to recently, I think no-one can honestly say he doubts that Belkar is CE. He acts on impulses. Only thinks of himself.

Seriously, I wonder if killing the oracle in front of Haley and Celia will be the final straw that makes Haley decide they're better off with Belkar dead.


It's obvious that a character like Belkar is unlikely to have his death filed under "natural causes". Especially given the Oracle's previous implications that the Belkster's not going to live much longer.

"The halfling should savor his next birthday cake" was the oracle's comment to Roy, I think.

I hope this spiteful murder causes Belkar's Mark of Justice to activate. It would ne deliciously ironic. Belkar did after all just deal lethal damage to a living creature within a building. The question is, does the tiny Sunken Valley community qualify as a settlement? Is it sufficient to fall under the definition of "within the bounds of any city, town or village" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)? There are buildings, and people living there. Sounds good to me.

I will be seriously disappointed if the paladins and clerics of Azure City left a "size of settlement" loophole in the Mark of Justice specifications so that a single building does not qualify... because in that case Belkar could still slaughter the inhabitants of lone farmsteads or out-of-the-way temples and monasteries out in the wilderness and go unpunished.


Ominous foreshadowing about Varsuuvius's fate. On the other hand, the oracle told V that he will attain ultimate arcane power, by "saying the right four words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." My speculation is in his mad attempt to become as powerful or more powerful than Xykon V will harness the Snarl's power to transform himself (or be transformed) into a lich, or a deity. (We've seen precedence that mortals can ascend to godhood in the gameworld, such as the Dark One and the elven pantheon.) In all likelihood it will only be temporary, or only last for a tiny moment, enough to destroy Xykon; but the raw power unleashed will kill V too, or drive him insane.

[David Argall]

The Oracle was unable to see his own future directly. He admitted as much when he complained that he always got visitors at bath time.
You are going beyond the evidence. The statement is the same form as Superman: "How is that even tho I'm stronger than a locomotive, I still can't open this !@#$ plastic wraps?" The rational answer would be that he can indeed open it, but we want the gag more than we want logic. Same applies here. We get the laugh, and there is no logical conclusion we may draw that there is any limit on the ability of the Oracle to see something.


When he answered Belkar's question he obtained the answer by entering a special trance, probably allowing him to know the answer without knowing the details.
Again, this is simple specualtion. We hear the kobold talk about his tendency to ramble and hear him give several predictions out of trance. The purpose of the trance seems to be merely to impose question and answer onto the memory so they are not erased by the forget spell.


When the Oracle realized that Roy, Miko, Miko's horse and Vaarsuvius were too far removed to be Belkar's true victims, then---and only then---did he realize that he, the Oracle, was the intended target of the prophecy. Perhaps. Unless he could bluff his way out of it.
The fact someone knows something is going to happen and they can't stop it doesn't stop them from trying.

[Icewalker]

Wow...That was such an ingenious execution of that. I was expecting something to do with those theories being used, as was done with the poisoned arrow, but...damn.

[ingtar33]

this is proving roy's case when he was judged in celestia.

his influence really did have a moderating influence on belkar's murderous bend.

now that he's not there, the little psychopath is starting to unleash himself.

[Tredrick]

I suspect Rich has surrogates read the forums for him to find out what he needs to poke fun at us for.

Also, remember the mark of justice is not a sudden "KILL BELKAR!" device. It sickens him over time until he reaches the point he cannot hurt anyone. It does not, from the sound of it, render him immediately incapable of physical action.

See comic 295 for a description of the MoJ.

[holywhippet]

Next strip plot :

Belkar convince everyone that the Oracle was useless and they decide it's about time Roy kicks in again. So instead of trying to find the nearest good aligned cleric, they'll go after the one cleric they know can raise Roy and how to find him. Personnally, I can't wait for the Redcloak Haley Belkar Celia meeting.

Roy get raised, Tsukiko pops in with a squad of undeads and Xykon and Roy jumps out of the window right after smahsing Xykon's Phylactery to dust. the party follows Roy and Celia has to make a pretty good strenght check.

I wonder if Tsukiko herself has enough levels to cast ressurection. It could be risky with her though, unless Haley/Celia/Belkar have enough ranks in spellcraft it's possible she would use a different spell to try and harm them or make Roy into an undead.

[Gamerlord]

I suspect Rich has surrogates read the forums for him to find out what he needs to poke fun at us for.

Also, remember the mark of justice is not a sudden "KILL BELKAR!" device. It sickens him over time until he reaches the point he cannot hurt anyone. It does not, from the sound of it, render him immediately incapable of physical action.

See comic 295 for a description of the MoJ.
Hmmm just how quickly do you think it will take before it takes him down? How much Damage does it probaly do? 3d6 STR dmg per day? :smallconfused:

[Abjurer]

Freaking BRILLIANT comic.

You are still the MAN, Rich.
This totally made my day.

[Rumex]

I kind of saw this coming, but I didn't want the poor Oracle to snuff it. I too hope he made arrangements, although I can sort of see if he didn't. Being able to see the future is a real downer when you know exactly how you're going to die.

Oh, good old Krull.

"What would you wish for?"
"Ignorance."

[Gamerlord]

I suspect Rich has surrogates read the forums for him to find out what he needs to poke fun at us for.

Also, remember the mark of justice is not a sudden "KILL BELKAR!" device. It sickens him over time until he reaches the point he cannot hurt anyone. It does not, from the sound of it, render him immediately incapable of physical action.

See comic 295 for a description of the MoJ.
Hmmm just how quickly do you think it will take before it takes him down? How much Damage does it probaly do? 3d6 STR dmg per day? :smallconfused:

[otakuryoga]

when in doubt-----STAB SOMEONE!!!

[Nightfall]

Did anyone else besides me see that ending coming from, like, three panels away? :smallbiggrin:

[5tephen]

Alright - this one is Great.

I love the premise that circular time-logic is never relevant when it comes to prophesy. Kudos Giant.

[Tilian]

he meant mount celestia talk as in a talk with Miko on mount celestia, and not a celestial mount....

Are you sure he didn't mean celestial mounting?

...

Sorry.

[Blaznak]

Ok, I really, really enjoyed this one. I'm sorry to see the Oracle go. I'm sure there's some witty way to combine the old addage "Dying's easy, comedy is hard" but its beyond me...
Later

[Bramble]

I wonder if Tsukiko herself has enough levels to cast ressurection. It could be risky with her though, unless Haley/Celia/Belkar have enough ranks in spellcraft it's possible she would use a different spell to try and harm them or make Roy into an undead.

If Haley had any thought about getting any of the Team Evil to ressurect Roy she had 3 months to try and talk/trick them into it. It seems unlikely that they'll turn back now that they've finally gotten out of the city.

[eilandesq]

A few thoughts:

--clearly, Tiamat--traditionally a lawful evil deity--imposed some rules on her Oracle, or the Oracle could have simply either said "I never said when it would happen, or which one" (Belkar still might have killed him, but it would have seemed less provoked), or even more simply: "Yeah, I blew that one, kid--here's your money back."

--memory loss is Belkar's friend;

--I'm deeply irritated at Belkar: he interrupted the Oracle before he could make up what might have been a deeply amusing rationalization of how V. should be considered to have been killed by Belkar. Something along the lines of long delayed allergic reactions to hornet venom, I would think. :smallsmile:

[Child Conscript]

I'm going to assume that Belkar has Kobolds as his favored enemy

Wouldn't be surprised as theres this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html)
and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html)

[SteveMB]

I wonder if Tsukiko herself has enough levels to cast ressurection. It could be risky with her though, unless Haley/Celia/Belkar have enough ranks in spellcraft it's possible she would use a different spell to try and harm them or make Roy into an undead.

IIRC, the person to be resurrected can refuse the call (as Shojo did), and knows at least the alignment of the would-be resurrecter. If Roy got a call saying that an evil character is trying to resurrect him, I think he'd hang up.

[DigoDragon]

Yes, I know. But I'm just happy that the prophecy is fullfilled so there's a reasonable chance that V might not get killed by him. Before it was looking like V was the last option in the prophecy and while the Oracle's comment about V in this one was kind of ominous, this strip still comes as a relief to me. :)

That's true, the oracle's statement before being interrupted does seem like death for V would be another subjective point of view. Guess we have to wait and see what happens. hopefully it all turns out alright. :smallsmile:

[rosebud]

Bummer if they don't get to remember that Miko is dead or how and why Belkar did what he did. Hopefully Roy remembers what happened in the afterworld and the memory charm does not apply to him.


"What is Belkar going to make out of the oracle's head?"Using my oracular powers (of reading the next strip :smallsmile:), I forsee that Mr. Scruffy could use a new kitty litter box.


Finally back on track, I think.You wish for a quick end to the story? I'm sure a story summary could fit in a paragraph about the fate of OOTS, Snarl, the Gods, Xykon, Redcloak, MitD, and a few key NPCs. It's the side quests that fill in the world and make the story length that much more enjoyable.


Now the discussion about if Belkar really did cause any or all of those deaths. I say no.Why does it matter? But for Roy, Miko and the Oracle, he contributed, in the last case, quite directly. Ironically, if Belkar had managed to cause Miko's fall earlier, the gate might not have been sundered and Miko may have survived. And Roy had an out, so the main cause of his death was limited to him and Xykon.


Who called it?Again, why does it matter?


I agree that it's about time Roy gets Raised.Things are progressing. Why does "about time" play into to things?


The Oracle isn't very intelligent.He only gets to read the script. He doesn't get to write it.


1-How much Xp will Belkar get for killin the oracle?Probably zero for the difficulty but some nice role playing XP.


2-How much loot will they find?Hee hee.


IWTH is wrong with my sense of humor that I didn't find it funny?You have not read the followup strip yet.


as far as I'm concerned the Giant has definitively established that there is no OOTS without Roy. ... Without Roy, they are nothing. So can we raise Roy, already? Yeesh.There is something called "character growth". There has been some, but not enough on the leadership end. Haley did well in the underground, though.


Roy now knows Miko's dead? Mount Celestia talk!Good point. That would be cool. But, gosh, people might complain that it would delay his resurrection for a few strips. (Not a problem in my book. :smallsmile:)


as a fan of kobolds, I'm sorely disappointed. :smallfrown:I predict happiness in your future. :smallsmile:


568 will now be a VERY interesting strip to see, but there is no chance whatsoever it can top thisI must say, oracle makes some things really fun. In this case, knowing what happens in 568 makes your comment so funny rather than a starting point of a long discussion. :smallsmile:

I guess that is why the wise can be so terse. They see what is and is not important.


I used to like Belkar, but this latest cold-blooded murder is too much. He's gone from playfully funny to repellent.As opposed to his numerous previous cold-blooded murders? I felt the same way when he killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) the Azure City guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html). You'll still find him repellent, yet also playfully funny.