[4e]Making a Fighter, any pitfalls?

[The New Bruceski]

I just got the 4e books and I've joined a campaign starting "as soon as we can do so". We've got a Warlock (Fey, if that matters) and Wizard (fire-happy, I may want to be a Tiefling :smallwink:) already, so I'm looking at making a Fighter to fill the Defender role. Other than that I don't have any absolute decisions yet.

Since I don't have the experience I've had with other systems, I'm curious (read: paranoid) what things I could do to screw up later on, and what I don't need to worry about yet. For example, I was getting bogged down over weapon choice and how that would affect stat allocation, but then found that weapon-specific exploits don't start until 3rd level, and the feats aren't until Epic tier (far enough that if I really want one I can stat towards it while levelling).

I'm not really looking for a "how-to-twink" guide, just advice on how I should approach building the guy.
--Is race really up to me for flavor, or critical?
--Are there stats/exploits that look misleadingly good, or are important but might go unnoticed?
--Do skills affect choices in the other areas, or do I decide those last, as it appears?
--Anything else I should know?

Thanks for the input. I'm just overwhelmed right now when I look at the books, since it's a new system.

[LiteYear]

Regarding skills, there are some powers and a couple feats that require you to be trained in a certain skill, although I'm not sure how many (if any) apply to a Fighter. Also, a thing you should know is that the PHB states that you're allowed to retrain one skill, power, or feat upon attaining each level (with a few restrictions).

[Charity]

If you are planning on playing into the paragon levels be careful where you assign your stats, if you leave con or dex too low you will limit your feat choices.

[marjan]

As the LiteYear stated most of the things can be retrained later, so even if you mess up it shouldn't be to hard to fix that.

- race isn't that critical, but it help if it sinergizes with your class. The most important thing to expect from the race is the boost to your primary stat, but it is not that crucial as it was in 3e

- pretty much most of powers are similar in their power, so you can't go much wrong about them. As for stats, decide what weapon you want to use and take a look at the powers that work with those weapons and see which stat they require. Basically you'll want one stat from each pair to be at least decent in order to keep defenses high

STR and CON (usually you'll want strength higher, but not con as dump stat)
DEX and INT (dex is more important unless you multiclass)
WIS and CHA (cha is only useful for social situation, so I'd go with higher wisdom here)

- skills affect your ability to use rituals. As for other uses, I'm not really sure if a fighter requires any of them

- multiclass feats are best feats to get since they give you a trained skill plus some power or limited use of class feature. If you were playing 3e, check proficiences as they are no longer same. That's about all I can think of.

[Gypsy0001]

Mutli-class feats are good, but I wouldn't say best (I would say 'balanced').

Considering how many power effects are tied to whether you hit or not, you can't go wrong with weapon focus (as a martial class like fighter).

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mutli-class feats are good, but I wouldn't say best (I would say 'balanced').

Considering how many power effects are tied to whether you hit or not, you can't go wrong with weapon focus (as a martial class like fighter).

Weapon focus doesn't boost AB, only damage.

[Person_Man]

It's pretty hard to utterly nerf your PC in 4E, unless you're intentionally trying to do so. Until more splat books come out, you really don't have to worry very much about optimization, though you're still rewarded (somewhat) for doing so.

Marjan is correct in that you basically want to pick 3 stats (one from each couplet) to focus on so that your defenses are high. Fighters suffer from the fact that they're Defenders, and are really built to soak up damage and provide blocking for the other PCs, and thus need high Con (more hit points, more healing surges, and most importantly they have plenty of powers that use Con to determine how much they heal). But they also need Str in order to hit things, and Str and Con are in the same couplet. My guess is that there's a decent multiclass Fighter tank build out there somewhere that uses Con/Dex/Wis, but I haven't figured one out yet.

As for race, I'd say go with Human (makes Action Points meaningful) or Dwarf (can use Second Wind as a Minor action).

[Gypsy0001]

Oye. Right you are.

[Azerian Kelimon]

It's pretty hard to utterly nerf your PC in 4E, unless you're intentionally trying to do so. Until more splat books come out, you really don't have to worry very much about optimization, though you're still rewarded (somewhat) for doing so.

Marjan is correct in that you basically want to pick 3 stats (one from each couplet) to focus on so that your defenses are high. Fighters suffer from the fact that they're Defenders, and are really built to soak up damage and provide blocking for the other PCs, and thus need high Con (more hit points, more healing surges, and most importantly they have plenty of powers that use Con to determine how much they heal). But they also need Str in order to hit things, and Str and Con are in the same couplet. My guess is that there's a decent multiclass Fighter tank build out there somewhere that uses Con/Dex/Wis, but I haven't figured one out yet.

As for race, I'd say go with Human (makes Action Points meaningful) or Dwarf (can use Second Wind as a Minor action).

That's false. Fighters only need CON if they're Hammer wielders. See, CON has a much smaller effect once you factor durable into the mix and remember that you only get extra HP at first level. The only real reason to take it is for Hammer Rhythm and Bludgeoning mastery.

[Saph]

The main 'pitfall' power for Fighters is Sure Strike. It's terrible; don't take it. Two-handed-weapon fighters should have Cleave and Reaping Strike. Shield fighters should have Cleave and Tide of Iron.

As long as you pick those for your at-wills and have an Strength of 16-18, you should be fine no matter what you do.

- Saph

[Indon]

That's false. Fighters only need CON if they're Hammer wielders. See, CON has a much smaller effect once you factor durable into the mix and remember that you only get extra HP at first level. The only real reason to take it is for Hammer Rhythm and Bludgeoning mastery.

Or for being healed for long fights when you're tanking.

But really, in that case it's a choice between defensive options - do you want a really tough character that has a slightly weaker defense, or a well-defended character who can't quite take as much punishment?

This is just a me-specific thing, but I'd try to pick all Reliable powers. Dice hate me and I'd hate to waste my dailies more often than not because of my propensity to roll 1's and 2's during critical situations.

[Person_Man]

That's false. Fighters only need CON if they're Hammer wielders. See, CON has a much smaller effect once you factor durable into the mix and remember that you only get extra HP at first level. The only real reason to take it is for Hammer Rhythm and Bludgeoning mastery.

It's certainly possible for a well built Fighter to have mediocre Con. But consider that in addition to hit points, Healing Surges, Hammer Rhythm, and Bludgeoning Mastery, Con effects:

Boundless Endurance: 2 + Con mod regeneration when bloodied
Unstoppable: Gain 2d6 + Con mod temporary hit points.
Crushing Blow: 2W + Str mod + Con mod damage with axe/hammer/mace.
Unbreakable: Reduce damage by 5 + Con mod damage.
Giant's Wake: 2W + Str mod + Con mod damage with axe + secondary attack
Unyielding Avalanche: Gain regen = Con mod, and enemies who start adjacent to you take damage and are slowed.
Iron Warrior: Heal 2d6 + Con mod and make Save to end an effect as Minor Action.
Hack n Slash: 4W + Str mod + Con mod damage with axe.
Skullcrusher: 4W + Str mod + Daze + Con mod and Blinded with hammer or mace.
Enduring Warrior: Regain hit points = Con mod when you drop enemy.
Trample the Fallen: Deal Con Mod damage whenever you push or knock enemy prone. Combine with Shield Push: If you hit a foe with an attack granted by Combat Challenge, you push target 1 square.
Potent Challenge: If you hit a foe with an attack granted by
your Combat Challenge class feature, add your Con mod to damage.
Dwarvern Durability: Increase # of healing surges by 2 and your healing surge value by Con mod.

Again, I admit that a Fighter can definitely get by without high Con. But they have a bunch of powers (including most of their healing powers) that rely on it. So you must either have high Str and Con, or avoid choosing powers that rely on Con, and deal with fewer hit points, healing surges, and overall ability to heal.

[Garphor Drinfan]

my opinion is that fighters need a good balance of str., con., and dex. I rolled a 17 a 15 and a 16 and since my charactor is a wild elf I got the plus in dex. but no penalty in con. so it ended a 17, 17, and 16.:smallsmile:

[Yakk]

Your dump-stats are Int and Cha (unless you find a feat that uses them).

Str: your main stat. Almost all attacks are based off of Str.
Con: Gives you extra HP at level 1, more healing surges. Also used by many powers.
Dex: Used by many feats, and some powers. Multiple weapon styles also use Dex. Also, because Int is a dump stat, needed to up your Reflex. Used for Initiative.
Wis: Adds to your attack bonus when making OAs. This is especially useful, because when you connect with an OA on a moving target, their move action ends. Also, as Cha is a dump stat, boosts your Will save.

Sure Strike is a trap.

Keep an eye out for the Reliable keyword. Many of your powers don't get consumed on a miss!

Both the striker-fighter and the defense-fighter are good. The defense-fighter wants a weapon with +3 to hit more than the striker-fighter (who is often willing to swap to-hit for damage).

Note: Str > other stats, pretty much. It should certainly be your highest state.

Ie: while Wis adds to your OAs, Str adds to your OAs and normal attack to-hits.

[The New Bruceski]

Thanks for the input everyone. Gave me some places to start looking.

[Crow]

If you are Human, and plan on using some Frost Weapon + Lasting Frost + Wintertouched action, Sure Strike is not quite so bad. Since you need a hit to begin with in order to get the ball rolling on that combo, it works well as an opener for a high-AC target, assuming you have no other way to get Combat Advantage reliably.

Boosting To-hit is hard in this game.

[Azerian Kelimon]

If you are Human, and plan on using some Frost Weapon + Lasting Frost + Wintertouched action, Sure Strike is not quite so bad. Since you need a hit to begin with in order to get the ball rolling on that combo, it works well as an opener for a high-AC target, assuming you have no other way to get Combat Advantage reliably.

Nope, Reaping strike is consistently better. Sure Strike IS A TRAP (A la Star Wars).

[Crow]

How is that? I am away from my books, but I thought that FW+LF+WT required a HIT to start working. Or is it just damage that is required? If it's just damage, then I was wrong.

[Tengu]

Well, some people believe that Sure Strike is only weapon damage, without bonuses from feats and other stuff. They're wrong, you simply don't add your strength to damage and that's all.

Of course, (usually) -4 to damage for +2 to attack is rarely useful. But sometimes it is.

[Crow]

Just looked it up, and you are rquired to hit with a power to start a Frost Weapon + Lasting Frost + Wintertouched combo. So Reaping Strike doesn't work unless it connects.