2 barb 1 fighter going forward

[farzi]

So I am very very new not only to this site but to the game itself (we're using 3.5 rule set).

Despite being new, I am trying to learn all I can about not only rules, but good ways to go about things.

Anyways, started out as a Barbarian for the first two levels. Didn't see anything real nice going forward other than just more rages per day, and cross classed to fighter for level 3 (fighter level 1) for the extra feat.

NOW, what would be the recommended way to go forward?

I was thinking of taking a second level in fighter, and then 2 levels in ranger for more fort, reflex saves / two weapon fighting....but I was reading in another thread where people were saying rage + 2 weapons wasn't that great.

Keep going down barb and or fighter? deviate further? Not real sure, and would LOVE some feed back.

Also, if this is in the wrong place, I whole heartedly appologize.:smalleek:
~Farzi

[Neithan]

You'll become really good at one thing only if you get more levels in a class (except you take a ****load of obscure Prestige-classes). Taking more and more classes with few levels will allow you to do many things, but being good at none of them.
I think I would get barbarian up to 5th level, but as the class combines very well with fighter leves you could go the rest of the way with that.
Levels in ranger probably wouldn't break this character, but except for a slight push of the saves and the track feat you won't get too much out of it unless you take a lot of levels. Fighting with two weapons is neat, but it only works if you wear light armor, which as a barbarian/fighter you probably didn't optimized your character at first level (though it is a viable build if you started with lots of dexterity and planned to use light weapons), and you also get only one extra attack unless you get 11 levels of ranger. The one spell per day won't really have an impact at higher levels and the animal companion won't be any help to you.
In comparison, 4 levels in barbarian would likely pay off better then 4 levels in ranger for this character.

You can combine a lot of classes, but I don't recommend that for players who are just getting into the game. Stying with a barbarian/fighter combination is probably the best idea. If you have a high strength score, you can get a lot out of the Power Attack based feats.

[farzi]

Wow, thank you very much.

I am currently using light armor (studded leather) as it was much cheaper than medium / heavy of equal or similar AC.

I'm not questioning you, I'm generally curious as to how/why imp. uncanny dodge, trap sense +1, and 1 more rage

would be better than 2 additional feats (next 3 in just fighter)

or

1 more fort save, 3 more reflex save, favored enemy, track, wild empathy (pretty useless in our campain), and two weapon fighting (if this really is bad for non rogues then I'd understand).

Really trying to sponge not only info, but reasoning behind it so that I can not only become a good player but eventually DM some day.

[SoD]

Well, lets look at the rage with TWF compared to rage with a two-handed weapon:

Two-handed weapon: +4 str=+2 attack and +3 damage.
Two-weapon fighting*: +4 str=+2 attack and +2 damage/+2 attack and +1 damage.

Although at first the two-weapon fighting might seem decent, given that they get the same bonus to attack as the two-handed weapon, however...TWF still gives a -2 attack*, which takes the +2 attack to a total of +0 (countering the -2), so the two-handed weapon is already +2 ahead. Also, when it comes to power attack related feats, you'll be wanting a two-handed weapon.

However, with Power Attack, you might want to take one level in ranger, for the favoured enemy, and later take the favoured power attack (from complete warrior) which improves your power attack against favoured enemies. From an optimisation point of view, take favoured enemy humanoid (human), they seem to be the most popular throughout the levels for an opponant.

However, you've said you have a high dexterity, so if you are dead-set on two levels in ranger, take archery instead of two-weapon fighting.


You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Note, the archery bit doesn't only have archery, so if you use thrown weapons, with high strength (or higher than dexterity, at least), you might want brutal throw, and power throw (both also from complete warrior [I think]).


*Assuming a light weapon for the off hand.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Recall, however, that you need to blow another feat on Quick Draw to get multiple attacks with thrown weapons, other than in the first round of combat (where you can hold one in each hand).

[Chronos]

However, with Power Attack, you might want to take one level in ranger, for the favoured enemy, and later take the favoured power attack (from complete warrior) which improves your power attack against favoured enemies.I'm guessing that the OP is working from core only, since he doesn't mention what books he's using, and he's not using anything outside of core yet.


From an optimisation point of view, take favoured enemy humanoid (human), they seem to be the most popular throughout the levels for an opponant.Isn't there a stipulation that you can only choose your own race as a favored enemy if you're evil? In any event, undead are another good choice for a favored enemy: At low levels, you're looking at zombies and skeletons, and at high levels, vampires, liches, and nightshades.

Meanwhile, it looks to me like the OP already knows the two most important things about building a warrior character:
1) Keep your BAB up.
2) Don't take an odd number of fighter levels.

Precisely how many fighter levels you should take depends on how many feats you consider important for your character. For most builds, you'll want 2 or 4 levels. Beyond that, you start running out of worthwhile feats, especially if you're in a core-only game. Power Attack is essential, and if you've got the Int for them, Combat Expertise and the things that follow from it are good. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, though, aren't all that useful. Cleave might be OK, depending on what sorts of things you usually fight, but Great Cleave is almost never worthwhile.

The next thing to know about optimizing a warrior-type is that unless you've got a bunch of extra damage from things like Sneak Attack, two-weapon fighting is almost never worthwhile. If you invest heavily in the two-weapon fighting feats, you can get your damage up to just about the same level that you can get with a single big weapon and no feats. Compare: A couple of short swords uses both your hands, and do 2d6 damage base. A greatsword also uses both of your hands, and also does 2d6 damage base. Your primary shortsword will add your full Str bonus, and your secondary will add half your Str bonus, for a total of 1.5 times your Str bonus. A greatsword will also add 1.5 times your Str bonus. If you can somehow get Power Attack to work on your shortswords (it doesn't normally work on light weapons), each one will give you +1 to your damage for every -1 to hit. Power Attack with your greatsword will give you +2 to your damage for every -1 to hit. So far, they're neck and neck... But now consider that this depends on getting twice as many attacks with the shortswords as with the greatsword, and that only happens if you take all of the TWF feats. Plus, you still have a penalty to hit when dual-wielding, plus once magic weapons start becomming an issue, you have to spend your wealth on two magic weapons, not just on one.

If you do take ranger levels, you definitely want to take the archery combat style. Even if you're planning on focusing on melee, it's not always an option. Sometimes, something is on the other side of a cliff, or atop a tall wall, or flying above you, and ranged weapons are your only option. It's good to have some flexibility for when those situations come up.

[Saph]

It depends on exactly which feats you've taken so far. Generally, going with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack is the most effective choice. A chain shirt (or mithril chain shirt) is almost always the best armour for anyone with a high Dex.

I wrote up a lengthy thread a while back on my personal favourite core melee build, the Horizon Tripper, which uses some combination of barbarian, fighter, and ranger. You can read it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415). The later pages have some discussion of different class levels to use - you might find it helpful.

- Saph

[SoD]

Isn't there a stipulation that you can only choose your own race as a favored enemy if you're evil? In any event, undead are another good choice for a favored enemy: At low levels, you're looking at zombies and skeletons, and at high levels, vampires, liches, and nightshades.

Not that I know of...not that I see on the SRD.


The next thing to know about optimizing a warrior-type is that unless you've got a bunch of extra damage from things like Sneak Attack, two-weapon fighting is almost never worthwhile. If you invest heavily in the two-weapon fighting feats, you can get your damage up to just about the same level that you can get with a single big weapon and no feats. Compare: A couple of short swords uses both your hands, and do 2d6 damage base. A greatsword also uses both of your hands, and also does 2d6 damage base. Your primary shortsword will add your full Str bonus, and your secondary will add half your Str bonus, for a total of 1.5 times your Str bonus. A greatsword will also add 1.5 times your Str bonus. If you can somehow get Power Attack to work on your shortswords (it doesn't normally work on light weapons), each one will give you +1 to your damage for every -1 to hit. Power Attack with your greatsword will give you +2 to your damage for every -1 to hit. So far, they're neck and neck... But now consider that this depends on getting twice as many attacks with the shortswords as with the greatsword, and that only happens if you take all of the TWF feats. Plus, you still have a penalty to hit when dual-wielding, plus once magic weapons start becomming an issue, you have to spend your wealth on two magic weapons, not just on one.

That may be so, but...someone weilding two double bladed swords will look totally badass.