Has Belkar made a bad enemy? (Spoiler)

[pendell]

In 566 we establish that the Oracle is 'naturally gifted' by Tiamat with the ability to foresee the future. We saw in an earlier strip that Tiamat spoke through him during trance.

Does this make the oracle Tiamat's mouthpiece, of a sort? Is it therefore possible that Tiamat will take an assault on her oracle as an assault on her directly? In mythology, killing the mouthpiece of a god was a BAD idea.

Questions:

1) Is this likely? Or am I mis-interpreting?

2) What vengeance would Tiamat take, if this were your table? I'm thinking some kind of curse immediately (negative modifiers to all roles), followed by some kind of astral bounty marking him out for death here , and an attempt after death to drag him before Tiamat's throne for ... dinner, say.

Additional question:

While pondering the matter of prophecy, I noted that Roy's day was able to give the 'when the goat turns red strikes true' prophecy wayyyyy back in the beginning of the comic.

So if dear ol' dad can see the future, why can't Roy? Could Roy ask his father to scry the future as well as the present ?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zolem]

Hmmm, in Greek and Roman myth, killing the Oracle of Delphai would cause the entire empire to fall, so yeah killing the Oracle was bad. Will Tiamat care that a lowly kobol was killed after one attack from a non-magical shortsword being wielded by a ranger halfling that's about as evil as her? I don't think so. Here's why....

1) If she cared, she'd have made the Oracle have more HP, remember she can directly power him, so just give him more HP!

2) SImilar argument with AC.

3) She would have intervened to stop the death.

[stm177]

The gods in OOTS are more hands off than the ones in the Illiad, so I'd say no.

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah, it's likely that the gods established precise rules about what they could and couldn't do to interfere with the mortals, and stick to that. Remember, if they get angry, they can accidentally release the snarl (or made another one), so they probably made the rules to avoid come into conflict; therefore there's very little they can do to intervene in the affairs of the mortals directly.
Thinking "the gods don't stop me, therefore they agree" it's exactly what Miko did, and we all know how it ended. (I hope this cline don't arbitrarily turn this thread into a Miko thread :smalleek:)

[DigoDragon]

Thinking "the gods don't stop me, therefore they agree" it's exactly what Miko did, and we all know how it ended. (I hope this cline don't arbitrarily turn this thread into a Miko thread :smalleek:)

No no, I actually like that example! :smallsmile:
I give you a cookie

[Rad]

come on, all it takes to the Dragon Queen is to send a cleric over there and be done with it.

BTW: why do we assume she's Tiamat? Thakisis has the same copyright issues, the same appearance and has actually been mentioned by the characters in the strip!

[pendell]

The question I asked (#2) was not what the gods can't do, but what they can do. I forget whether its OOOTPCs or SOD, but there are indeed specific rules which require the gods to interact with the world through clerics, primarily.

Well, there are at least two things I could do, if I were GMing, neither of which are mutually exclusive.

1) Put out an APB on Belkar to all my clerics, to the effect that they are to take out a XXXXX GP bounty on Belkar.

2) Specifically commission a cleric to do the job a la Redcloak was commissioned by the Dark One to carry out his purposes.

3) Lay it on the hearts of the clerics to gate in an outsider or perform some other ritual magic that will put a Zin-carla or Terminator or whatever on Belkar's trail.

Then again, there's always the Captain Barbosa approach to the pact with the other gods ..

"The code is more along the lines of what we call guidelines then actual rules...' KA-ZAP!

As towards the question .. why Tiamat and not Takhisis?

It is specifically spelled out in the Order of the Scribble portion of the comic that there are three Pantheons (currently) in OOTS-world: Babylonian (West), Chinese (South - the Twelve) and Norse (Thor, Odin, etc.)

Tiamat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat) is a member of the Babylonian pantheon, and was worshipped in the Middle East thousands of years before D&D was invented.

Takhisis is not a member of the Babylonian Pantheon. Takhisis and Paladine were specifically invented for Dragonlance (I think). The Dragonlance pantheon are not active deities in OOTS world. The Babylonians pantheon is.

Therefore, the preponderance of evidence is that the five-headed dragon is Tiamat, not Takhisis.

Besides which, if it was Takhisis she would be HAWT. She's not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chronos]

BTW: why do we assume she's Tiamat? Thakisis has the same copyright issues, the same appearance and has actually been mentioned by the characters in the strip!Where is Thakisis mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)? And what copyright issues are there for ancient Babylonian mythology?

[galdon]

Yeah, it's likely that the gods established precise rules about what they could and couldn't do to interfere with the mortals, and stick to that. Remember, if they get angry, they can accidentally release the snarl (or made another one), so they probably made the rules to avoid come into conflict; therefore there's very little they can do to intervene in the affairs of the mortals directly.
Thinking "the gods don't stop me, therefore they agree" it's exactly what Miko did, and we all know how it ended. (I hope this cline don't arbitrarily turn this thread into a Miko thread :smalleek:)

actually, the gods can interfier directly, there have been a few instances of Thor being shown directly involving himself with the world.. such as when he was allowing all the people to be consumed because he was on the phone with durkon, or when he got drunk and was throwing lightning randomly..

[Lupy]

Rad, is that a direct quote from the 567 discussion thread? You said it there too :smallannoyed: . As was said there, Takhisis is copyrighted by WotC (Why oh why did Weis and Hickman give in? There must've been a better way! :smallfrown: ) and Tiamat it is not copyrighted (or even trademarked) by anyone because she is from Babylonian/Sumerian mythology. I did the same thing at first until I thought, "Wait, Saragonas does not have four eyes!"

[Red XIV]

The idea that "the rules" prevent conflict between the gods is also suspect. Perhaps inter-pantheon conflict is prevented (Thor so could've taken Tiger if an actual fight had broken out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), yet backed down anyway), but given the mixed alignments within each pantheon and the fact that we've specifically seen Thor and Loki fighting each other directly...yeah. It's obvious that divine battles still happen.

[Mr. Scaly]

I answer the titular question with a question.

Did not the Oracle once say that Belkar had 'better savour his next birthday cake?' :smallwink:

[David Argall]

(Thor so could've taken Tiger if an actual fight had broken out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), yet backed down anyway),

There is absolutely no supporting evidence of that. What we do have supports Tiger as the more powerful since it is Thor who looks worried by the challenge. But both are pretty much blank slates and the writer can make either stronger at whim.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Yeah, it's likely that the gods established precise rules about what they could and couldn't do to interfere with the mortals, and stick to that. Remember, if they get angry, they can accidentally release the snarl (or made another one),

So you're saying that you think Belkar may provoke Tiamat, and in turn provoke Tiamat to release the Snarl?

[FujinAkari]

There is absolutely no supporting evidence of that. What we do have supports Tiger as the more powerful since it is Thor who looks worried by the challenge. But both are pretty much blank slates and the writer can make either stronger at whim.

While I generally agree with you, if we go by there mythological archetypes, then Thor would be quite a bit stronger than Tiger, as the Chinese Zodiac are, effectively, little more than luck-spirits, and not full-fledged Gods.

Still, we have nothing to suggest that within the strip itself, but saying "there is absolutely no supporting evidence" is BA-WRONG :P

[Aquillion]

BTW: why do we assume she's Tiamat? Thakisis has the same copyright issues, the same appearance and has actually been mentioned by the characters in the strip!No she doesn't, and no she wasn't. Thakisis is a copyrighted character invented for use in trashy fantasy stories. Tiamat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat) was an ancient Babylonian diety, part of the state religion of one of the most powerful empires in ancient history. (Although, granted, her modern depiction is sort of influenced by D&D.)

They are sort of different.

[pendell]

I answer the titular question with a question.

Did not the Oracle once say that Belkar had 'better savour his next birthday cake?' :smallwink:

Well, yes, yes he did. But your point is going over my head .. I must be having an attack of the stupids. Mind spelling out your point?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lunaya]

...Yes. Yes he has.

:smalltongue:

[FrankNorman]

I'd also like to question the assumption people are making that "the Dragon Queen" = Tiamat. There are other possibilities.

Firstly, the OOTS universe clearly has other supernatural beings besides the three pantheons who survived the Snarl. Redcloak and Vaarsuvius both seem to worship (though we haven't seen either actually doing that) deities that came into existence well after the current world was made. Who says the kobolds/dragons/lizardfolk/whatever don't have the same?

Secondly, each of those pantheons has its clearly-defined sphere of influence. The Norse one in the north, the Chinese-Animal-Calendar one in the south, and the Babylonian one over on the western continent. Sunken Valley is not on the western continent. It looks to be not too far from Azure City.

So perhaps the "Dragon Queen" is actually the dragon member of the Azurite pantheon.

[factotum]

Secondly, each of those pantheons has its clearly-defined sphere of influence.

Yes, but the gods are allowed to grant their followers powers even if they're outside their sphere of influence--Durkon is still able to call on Thor's powers even though he's well outside Northern God territory.

[FrankNorman]

Yes, but the gods are allowed to grant their followers powers even if they're outside their sphere of influence--Durkon is still able to call on Thor's powers even though he's well outside Northern God territory.

Yes and no. It seems that Durkon could still cast all his normal "spells", but there was that little standoff between Thor and Tiger when Durkon made an unusual order.

[Querzis]

As Lunaya said, yes he definitly made a bad enemy but its not Tiamat. Assuming that the Oracle didnt really want to be resurected (and therefore didnt pay a cleric to resurect him later) he could have spent all the money he had left to make Belkar life a living hell. Think about it, the Oracle knew exactly where Belkar was going to be and what he was going to do for the rest of his life, he could have used his money to do a lot worse in the future then just trigger the MoJ.

[snafu]

If he was a vengeful Oracle he could have got started a lot sooner. These people have offered violence to him or to his employees on every single visit.

Although it does raise an interesting question: if he's able to foresee attacks on himself by clients, and to prepare in advance for them, why wasn't he wearing a ring of feather falling when he knew Roy and Durkon were going to be dangling him out of the window for extra questions?

[Ramien]

I'd also like to question the assumption people are making that "the Dragon Queen" = Tiamat. There are other possibilities.

-SNIP-

So perhaps the "Dragon Queen" is actually the dragon member of the Azurite pantheon.

Nope, that Dragon is green and an Eastern style dragon (look at the scene where Miko loses her paladin status for an example) . The five headed Dragon deity is identified as Tiamat in several places, including the original story of the Snarl.

[FrankNorman]

If he was a vengeful Oracle he could have got started a lot sooner. These people have offered violence to him or to his employees on every single visit.

Although it does raise an interesting question: if he's able to foresee attacks on himself by clients, and to prepare in advance for them, why wasn't he wearing a ring of feather falling when he knew Roy and Durkon were going to be dangling him out of the window for extra questions?

1) Maybe he didn't have one?
2) Being able to peek into the future isn't the same as being omniscient. There are things he'd know would happen in some way, without knowing all the details.
3) The Oracle gets shown what WILL happen, not what MIGHT happen. So trying to take steps to avoid it is pointless.

[Red XIV]

1) Maybe he didn't have one?
2) Being able to peek into the future isn't the same as being omniscient. There are things he'd know would happen in some way, without knowing all the details.
3) The Oracle gets shown what WILL happen, not what MIGHT happen. So trying to take steps to avoid it is pointless.
Knowing that you WILL be dangled out a window on the top floor of your tower would be an excellent reason to get yourself a Ring of Feather Falling, I'd think.

For that matter, simply living on the top floor of a tower would be a decent reason to make that investment.

[David Argall]

If he was a vengeful Oracle he could have got started a lot sooner. These people have offered violence to him or to his employees on every single visit.

Although it does raise an interesting question: if he's able to foresee attacks on himself by clients, and to prepare in advance for them, why wasn't he wearing a ring of feather falling when he knew Roy and Durkon were going to be dangling him out of the window for extra questions?

All sorts of possible reasons
1-His girlfriend was watching from the ground, and seeing him dangle caused her to rush in and comfort him as soon as the nasty adventurers left.
2-The deal that got him the job of Oracle limits his ability to seek revenge.
3-Roy wasn't going to drop him, so the ring was a needless precaution.
4-Roy's dead, in part as a result of Oracle actions. he got revenge.

[Corwin Weber]

Belkar is worse than dead.

To the Sumerians, Tiamat wasn't so much a goddess as a force of nature. Even the other gods were leery of crossing her. (Enki being a notable exception.)

He's also being weakened on the edge of a village full of kobolds.

He's toast. Either they'll kill him or (more likely given the prophecy) Tiamat is going to do something so nasty to him that he can't be rezzed.

[pendell]

All sorts of possible reasons
1-His girlfriend was watching from the ground, and seeing him dangle caused her to rush in and comfort him as soon as the nasty adventurers left.
2-The deal that got him the job of Oracle limits his ability to seek revenge.
3-Roy wasn't going to drop him, so the ring was a needless precaution.
4-Roy's dead, in part as a result of Oracle actions. he got revenge.

Another possibility is that the Oracle isn't omniscient. He can see the future, but not all of the future at once. I imagine if he really was exposed to all knowledge, he would spend his time babbling and wouldnt' be able to function in the regular world :).

Corwin Weber -- good response! I hadn't known that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Superglucose]

Well, this could go along with his "savor your next birthday cake" prophecy... Belkster kills off the Oracle, Tiamat gets pissed and kills off Belkster

[Alex Warlorn]

The Oracle knew... he really DID know he couldn't escape getting killed by Belkar, he knows there are fates you can't screw with... and that was precisely what made him the master of them... BELKAR FINALLY gets his!!!

[Arkenputtyknife]

Knowing that you WILL be dangled out a window on the top floor of your tower would be an excellent reason to get yourself a Ring of Feather Falling, I'd think.

For that matter, simply living on the top floor of a tower would be a decent reason to make that investment.
They didn't drop him. The oracle knew they weren't going to drop him. He knew that he wasn't going to die by falling from a great height. Why would he waste money on a ring of feather fall that wouldn't get used?

Though actually finding himself being dangled by his ankles must have given his faith a severe test.

[Alex Warlorn]

Even a dead man shouldn't be underestimated. In particular one who saw his end coming in amble time to prepare for the inevitable.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The Oracle might have even arranged for a cleric to raise him right afterwards in front of Belkar, letting him know he set the MoJ off for nothing. If he can convince "just enough" kobolds to relocate themselves just to spite Belkar, surely he could get a high level cleric in on the plan.

He might even have arranged for a kobold druid to come in and make a Wild Empathy check...and Mr. Scruffy leaves Belkar for a kobold. Belkar cries...a lot.

Why all of this? I'm guessing that in the OotS-iverse (and probably some D&D settings) kobolds hate halflings and halflings hate kobolds.