The obligatory "Miko returns" thread

[Kurald Galain]

I'm sure other people will already have thought of that, but the important detail of today's strip is that Roy now knows that Miko is dead, and thus can visit her in the afterlife...

:smallcool:

[bibliophile]

Returns to the comic, rather then to life, you mean? It's certainly possible but I doubt it will happen. As comic #486 shows the southerners are on a whole different section of the plane. If Roy could have visited her, why wouldn't he already? The recent events give him no reason to try to talk to her, so it seems rather unlikely to me.

[Occasional Sage]

This brings up an interesting theoretical question, however. If a fallen paladin has reflected on the bad choices (s)he made in life and has been able to come to terms with her/his mistakes, what then? (S)he's already in the Celestial Realms, where forgiveness comes from; how does that interact with the need of a living paladin to use the Atonement spell? Off the top of my head I'd argue that the fallen paladin could speak a random archon wandering about and regain the lost paladin status.

[Gamerlord]

Why is everyone saying that miko is sorry for her crimes against the forces of good? i think she is still a self righteous (censored by author of post) .

[Kurald Galain]

Returns to the comic, rather then to life, you mean? It's certainly possible but I doubt it will happen. As comic #486 shows the southerners are on a whole different section of the plane.

They're on the other side of the mountain, yes. Seems to me that that means they are on the same mountain, especially if they climb up a bit.

Of course, Miko is going to be stuck in either the Dungeon of Infinite Smiting, or the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right...

[Occasional Sage]

Why is everyone saying that miko is sorry for her crimes against the forces of good? i think she is still a self righteous (censored by author of post) .

If by "everyone" in this case you mean me, I'm not. I'm posing this purely as a theoretical question. I don't personally think that it applies to Miko; she didn't regret her actions or believe that there was a problem with them, when last we saw her. For my question to have any bearing on Miko herself, she would need to have undergone significant character development offstage, of which we have no suggestion.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Actually, samurai from Azure City can be seen climbing the mountain in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html).

Which means Roy has the knowledge and the ability to seek out Miko, but not necessarily the desire...

On the other hand, showing up comming down the mountain to see Miko might tell her that Roy really was good all along, OR she might see Roy as a member of an evil adventuring party, plane shifted to attack her. :smallfurious:

As much as some members of the audience loath Miko's possible return, don't be completely suprised if she once again walks this mortal coil.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Miko was only aware of the Order that she perceived. She never saw Haley leading the Resistance, or Roy going on a suicide mission against Xykon, all she saw was the Order that Scorching Ray'd and threatened her while pledging loyalty to Belkar.

Her actions were based solely on how the Order presented themselves to her and not Hinjo: Defenders of an escaped murderer of Azure City's guards led by a man who turned against her once he was no longer interested in getting inside her pants.



If she could have scryed on Haley leading the Resistance and repeatedly putting Belkar in his place in order to use him as a tool against Xykon, then she would see that they were serving the forces of good all along.

She would need a caster to help her scry...likely a follower of the Twelve Gods so this caster would be on the same side of the mountain as her...preferably one that died in the same battle as her, in order to be present at the same time and give them a common cause (opposing Xykon)...preferably one with a specialty in Divinations...

[Lupy]

Miko was only aware of the Order that she perceived. She never saw Haley leading the Resistance, or Roy going on a suicide mission against Xykon, all she saw was the Order that Scorching Ray'd and threatened her while pledging loyalty to Belkar.

Her actions were based solely on how the Order presented themselves to her and not Hinjo: Defenders of an escaped murderer of Azure City's guards led by a man who turned against her once he was no longer interested in getting inside her pants.

If she could have scryed on Haley leading the Resistance and repeatedly putting Belkar in his place in order to use him as a tool against Xykon, then she would see that they were serving the forces of good all along.

She would need a caster to help her scry...likely a follower of the Twelve Gods so this caster would be on the same side of the mountain as her...preferably one that died in the same battle as her, in order to be present at the same time and give them a common cause (opposing Xykon)...preferably one with a specialty in Divinations...

Thankyou Gene Ray. Gamerkid, I dont want this to be another Miko-war, but Miko was a good person, thus Roy could meet her, and she may very well decide to help the order when she sees the good they hav done (Gene made my point for me :smallsmile: )

[Gamerlord]

Thankyou Gene Ray. Gamerkid, I dont want this to be another Miko-war, but Miko was a good person, thus Roy could meet her, and she may very well decide to help the order when she sees the good they hav done (Gene made my point for me :smallsmile: )
It won't become another miko-war, the mods have stripped me of my hadoken powers:smallfrown:

[Lupy]

It won't become another miko-war, the mods have stripped me of my hadoken powers:smallfrown:

You too? Anyway, I just think that Miko will never make an appearance again unless she meets Roy in the afterlife.

[Aquillion]

The recent events give him no reason to try to talk to her, so it seems rather unlikely to me.Well, technically, she was present when the gate was destroyed, so talking to her would be a way of finding out exactly what happened (which there's some reason to want to know.) Of course, O-Chul also has that information (and possibly knows where Xykon's Phylactery is, too, which Miko wouldn't because she arrived too late and wasn't paying attention), but nobody knows about that yet.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well, technically, she was present when the gate was destroyed, so talking to her would be a way of finding out exactly what happened (which there's some reason to want to know.)

That may be a reason, but if Roy decides to get in touch with Miko (which he might, given that Rich bothered to have him and Haley react to the news of her death), it would likely be because he views her similarly as he does Belkar: potentially dangerous, but, with the right management, a powerful tool against Xykon.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Miko was only aware of the Order that she perceived. She never saw Haley leading the Resistance, or Roy going on a suicide mission against Xykon, all she saw was the Order that Scorching Ray'd and threatened her while pledging loyalty to Belkar.

Her actions were based solely on how the Order presented themselves to her and not Hinjo: Defenders of an escaped murderer of Azure City's guards led by a man who turned against her once he was no longer interested in getting inside her pants.

True. However it is quite possible that a great deal of this will come up in her pre-Celestia interview.

...Unless, of course, she has gone straight to her destination. Soon's comment was "Even now we are fading to the Celestial Realm. We will usher youb to your destination as well" - which could be read to imply that she will be bypassing the interview (or, of course, being dropped off there...)

[Kato]

Okay... first: I'm glad we don't talk about 'returns to life' ^^*
About him visiting her in the afterlife... for one, she's probably not lawful good anymore, so not in his afterlife. Which raises the question, if he can without any restrains visit her in her afterlife. Also, I might take into account she could have changed her opinion about the order, watching what they did, after the war. But I kinda don't think she's interested in any of it. She's the kind of person who made up her mind and is determined to stay true to her beliefs. I wonder what she's actually doing in the... chaotic good afterlife, or wherever she went to. Maybe she started right when she got their to complain, she's lawful good and stuff, and Soon promised her to see her horse and now she's still fighting against angels, not letting her see it :P

[FujinAkari]

About him visiting her in the afterlife... for one, she's probably not lawful good anymore, so not in his afterlife.

Why isn't she? She was lawful good up until the day before she died, and continued to act in a Lawful Good manner even after she fell. She refused Sabine and clearly considered her duties to Azure City and the Sapphire Guard as binding, despite having fallen.

Roy's saving grace in the interview was that he kept TRYING to be Lawful Good. I see no reason why Miko won't receive the same judgment.

[David Argall]

The basic problem remains 464. Miko's death is written in a very final manner. It is very hard to bring Miko back in any manner without clashing with that. Whether in the afterlife or in this one, her return needs a lot of justification that is hard to make. One can question whether this decision was wise or not. Miko did a tremendous amount for the story and could have done much more. But the decision has pretty much made and is final.

[Dausuul]

I think it's possible that Roy will encounter Miko "on the cloud." I can't see her being admitted through the golden gates, but wandering around at the entrance to the Lawful Good afterlife, permitted to see but not enter? That works.

However, I suspect the Giant removed Miko because he was sick of the arguments about her. In which case, she won't be back, ever, in any form.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Why isn't she? She was lawful good up until the day before she died, and continued to act in a Lawful Good manner even after she fell. She refused Sabine and clearly considered her duties to Azure City and the Sapphire Guard as binding, despite having fallen.

Roy's saving grace in the interview was that he kept TRYING to be Lawful Good. I see no reason why Miko won't receive the same judgment.

I don't want to start a flamewar--obviously, it's ultimately up to Rich. That said, I can see the justification if he were to send Miko to the LN afterlife.

[FujinAkari]

That said, I can see the justification if he were to send Miko to the LN afterlife.

I think everyone can. She could either go either way, I would say 55% LG, 45% LN. I -personally- think that if Roy can get into LG after a -lifetime- of acting CG for LG reasons, then Miko can certainly get in for two breaches of LG for LG reasons.


However, I suspect the Giant removed Miko because he was sick of the arguments about her. In which case, she won't be back, ever, in any form.

I thought this too for a long time, but Rich disagrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4390407&postcount=76)


Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I have some wild speculation...besides my sig.

Rich didn't have to make the Oracle mention Miko, nor did he have to have Roy and Haley react to it. I imagine that her name is going to come up more and more until Roy finally mentions that he is considering trying to get in touch with Miko. That will be that last panel of whatever strip it happens in. He should also mention other courses of action, so Miko is still only a possibility.

The next comic will be entitled "She's Baaaaack!" or something to that effect, so before they click on it, the readers are expecting Miko...

The strip will be 16 panels of Miko doing something incredibly mundane. Like making a sandwich or doing her laundry. She will not say a single word. Even if she does, it will do nothing to answer whether she is in the LN, LG, or Pre-Processing Afterlife. She should also be dressed in such a way that does nothing to answer whether she is redeemed or not.

The next comic shows Roy dismissing the idea of visiting Miko, either by outright declaring it or taking one of the other courses of action he mentioned earlier. Miko is not mentioned again, except maybe in some sort of "Whatever Happened To..." section at the end.

[Ramien]

I think Rich mentioned Miko's death more as a way to recap a few things and to show the oracle trying to save his own tail.

[shylocxs]

You too? Anyway, I just think that Miko will never make an appearance again unless she meets Roy in the afterlife.

Can some of us still make the claim that we would PREFER Miko wouldn't show up again? Please?

[Raging Gene Ray]

I think Rich mentioned Miko's death more as a way to recap a few things and to show the oracle trying to save his own tail.

That's probably right...but I like the "Build 'em up and Knock 'em down" approach.

[Red XIV]

for one, she's probably not lawful good anymore, so not in his afterlife.
Falling as a paladin doesn't mean she changed alignments. The requirements for being a paladin are much more strict than those for merely maintaining a particular alignment. Based on what the Deva told Roy, bad judgement wouldn't keep Miko out of the Lawful Good afterlife, because it's intent that they grade on. While Miko was often misguided and eventually moved on to flat-out delusional, her intent to be Lawful Good didn't change.

[FujinAkari]

Back to the original topic, someone recently noted in another thread that Roy isn't in the current strip. And when you go back and look, you see that he seemed to mysteriously vanished -right after- he learned that Miko was dead.

This theory actually seems more credible right now...

[Holammer]

Whatever direction the discussion takes, Kurald did a good observation there. If Roy even cares a smudge of Miko, or simply wants to heckle her in the afterlife he did learn she was there in the afterlife now.

As for Miko, characters are resurrected or used when it's convenient for the story, like that bloke, whatisname?.. Gandalf! :D
"Miko the white", oooh yeah baby!

[David Argall]

Back to the original topic, someone recently noted in another thread that Roy isn't in the current strip. And when you go back and look, you see that he seemed to mysteriously vanished -right after- he learned that Miko was dead.

This theory actually seems more credible right now...
Well, it is not entirely incredible. But the evidence is merely he is not in panels where he has no obvious good lines and would merely crowd the picture.
And why would Roy want to visit Miko? In general, his attitude has been the less he has to do with her, the better. She seems to lack any knowledge he might want, and lacks any ability to help him communicate with anyone.
We can note that the last time Roy left the mortal realm, we were told about it. And there is room for a picture of Roy leaving and mentioning he wanted to check on this.
And again, 464 just argues against any Miko return of any kind.

So don't be shocked to see him in 569 still in the tower.

[FujinAkari]

Well, it is not entirely incredible. But the evidence is merely he is not in panels where he has no obvious good lines and would merely crowd the picture.

This seems to strain credibility. The assumption that Roy would have absolutely no problem with Belkar killing the Oracle is very out of character for him. Roy has always been one to talk, despite the fact that no one can hear him, and his silence to Belkar's attack is suspicious to say the least.


And why would Roy want to visit Miko? In general, his attitude has been the less he has to do with her, the better. She seems to lack any knowledge he might want, and lacks any ability to help him communicate with anyone.

Who knows why? Maybe he wants to see what afterlife she went too, maybe he's hoping her judgement hasn't happened, maybe he wants to yell at her for being a moron since he never -really- saw her after she attacked Shojo, maybe he's curious if the stick in Miko's ass is tall enough to reach heaven :P

The fact that Miko "seems to lack any knowledge he might want" isn't a valid argument, since Roy has no idea WHAT information Miko has. Additionally, Miko knows what happened in the throneroom and can tell Roy that Xykon doesn't control the gate and isn't about to destroy the world, which WOULD be relevant information.


We can note that the last time Roy left the mortal realm, we were told about it. And there is room for a picture of Roy leaving and mentioning he wanted to check on this.

We can also note that there hasn't been a SINGLE comic of ghost-Roy where he was present but not featured, until this one. There is much more room to feature him in a single panel than there is to insert something which breaks story-flow.


And again, 464 just argues against any Miko return of any kind.

Yeah, just like 443 argues against any Roy return of any kind.


So don't be shocked to see him in 469 still in the tower.

Its not beyond the realm of possibility, but I don't consider it likely.

[Paladin29]

Perhaps Roy really cares for Miko now, I have seen weirder things..

[Kish]

Can some of us still make the claim that we would PREFER Miko wouldn't show up again? Please?
Yes. I just wouldn't expect that to matter to Rich, if he's planning to bring her back. Which I'm pretty sure he isn't. But just in case.

[David Argall]

This seems to strain credibility. The assumption that Roy would have absolutely no problem with Belkar killing the Oracle is very out of character for him. Roy has always been one to talk, despite the fact that no one can hear him, and his silence to Belkar's attack is suspicious to say the least.
568 is a distinctly crowded comic as it is. There really isn't room to put Roy in, except where he is a distraction.


Who knows why?
Which is the point. You up and visit very few people, and what might be termed a psycho ex-girlfriend is very unlikely to be on any such list. If you can't think of a good reason for Roy to go to the trouble of hunting her down, the odds are Roy can't either.


The fact that Miko "seems to lack any knowledge he might want" isn't a valid argument, since Roy has no idea WHAT information Miko has.
And you don't go around asking random people if they have information you want. You try to ask people who are very likely to have that information.


Additionally, Miko knows what happened in the throneroom and can tell Roy that Xykon doesn't control the gate and isn't about to destroy the world, which WOULD be relevant information.
Roy pretty much knows this already. The throne room blew up and there is this big old rift there now. Since he/Elan has already destroyed a gate, he would assume the gate is gone, and thus that Xykon can't control what isn't there. Information like this, he can get much better by scanning Xykon/Redcloak with the holy scrying stuff.


We can also note that there hasn't been a SINGLE comic of ghost-Roy where he was present but not featured, until this one.
There have been two strips, 533 & 534, where Roy leaves the immediate scene. In both cases, he tells us he is leaving. That argues he should have done the same in 567.

The total time on mortal ground is only 11 strips, and on most of these, Roy has definite reasons for being on stage, such as a different method of getting Haley to hear him. 568 seems to qualify as the strip where he had the least to do with the action.



Yeah, just like 443 argues against any Roy return of any kind.
But it doesn't. 445 and others tell the general attitude is that Roy will return. There is no finality to Roy's death.
With 464, we have a copy of a very traditional death scene, where we get an evaluation of the deeds of the dying, a sumation of sorts, last words. Everything says over and done with.

[FujinAkari]

568 is a distinctly crowded comic as it is. There really isn't room to put Roy in, except where he is a distraction.


There have been two strips, 533 & 534, where Roy leaves the immediate scene. In both cases, he tells us he is leaving. That argues he should have done the same in 567.

So you are holding the position that A) There wasn't enough room to even FEATURE Roy in 568 and B) If he did leave the Giant should have not only shown Roy, but added additional dialogue.

These are contradictory positions, you can't hold both. If your position allows for Roy's absense to be explained by how crowded the strip is, then it MUST also allow for Roy's departure not to be telegraphed for the same reason.


If you can't think of a good reason for Roy to go to the trouble of hunting her down, the odds are Roy can't either.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I listed about four good reasons? This statement is also illogical. If I can't decide how to spend Bill Gates' money, does it naturally follow that Bill Gates can't either? Roy is MUCH MORE familiar with his situation than I am, by definition of it being his.


Information like this, he can get much better by scanning Xykon/Redcloak with the holy scrying stuff.

He can only get CURRENT information. if he wants to know how Azure City fell, scrying won't help.

[David Argall]

So you are holding the position that A) There wasn't enough room to even FEATURE Roy in 568 and B) If he did leave the Giant should have not only shown Roy, but added additional dialogue.

These are contradictory positions, you can't hold both. If your position allows for Roy's absense to be explained by how crowded the strip is, then it MUST also allow for Roy's departure not to be telegraphed for the same reason.
Roy can be shown leaving in 567, and given the theory is that he is rushing off to find Miko right away, that would be where it should be shown, so the crowded conditions of 568 can explain why Roy is not on camera without making it impossible for him to leave in 567.



You seem to be ignoring the fact that I listed about four good reasons?
Well, you gave 4 reasons. Three lacked any incentive to act immediately [Really they lacked any serious incentive to act at all, but even assuming Roy would act on them when he had the time...] and Roy had reason to hang around the Oracle in hopes something would happen. The only one with a reason to rush off-that maybe Miko's trial hasn't happened yet-is distinctly weak since about 200 days have passed and any backlog from the conquest of the city should have been taken care of long ago.


This statement is also illogical. If I can't decide how to spend Bill Gates' money, does it naturally follow that Bill Gates can't either? Roy is MUCH MORE familiar with his situation than I am, by definition of it being his.
But you do have ideas on how to spend Gates' money. Not necessarily good ideas, and likely not the ideas that Gates would have, but you are not sitting there with no idea.
Gates is also his own private person, with no particular interest in showing you his motivations and desires. As a character in a story Roy has a "desire" to show us what makes him tick. The writer is supposed to show us his motivations. What Roy is doing can be mysterious to us at the moment, but it gets explained.
More to the point, it gets noticed. We are told when people change scenes and exit or arrive. On this, compare...
Roy hears Oracle and says "I better check into this" and exits stage ceiling. vs Roy hears Oracle and says nothing and vanishes without notice.
The first gives us foreshadowing and establishes where Roy is and is not. The 2nd leaves us confused, and the author now has to put in a scene where he explains what happened to Roy. So the first is standard practice.


He can only get CURRENT information. if he wants to know how Azure City fell, scrying won't help.
But why would he need to know this? The available evidence is of course far from complete, but what we have shows no serious interest in what amounts to ancient history.

The theory that Roy has left is so unlikely that the story does not bother to refute it.

[Jarwy]

I have some wild speculation...besides my sig.

Wrap those speculations of yours into a spoiler box the next time. :smallannoyed: They make too much sense. Thank you.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

But it doesn't. 445 and others tell the general attitude is that Roy will return. There is no finality to Roy's death.
With 464, we have a copy of a very traditional death scene, where we get an evaluation of the deeds of the dying, a sumation of sorts, last words. Everything says over and done with.

Unfortunatly for that theory to hold, the story has to be something other than D&D... As long as there is a desire for the deceased to return, and someone willing to bring them back, the character can always return.

The "Final" scene regarding Miko's death would be her standing on the dock of the Celestial Sea's fishing port, gutting an angelfish, talking with Roy, and saying "No. My place is here, now. I was wrong about you, and Lord Shojo, but not about that halfling. I wish you the Twleve Gods' Blessings, but I shall not return to the world."

Until then, Miko has the same opportunity to return as any other character... Even the nameless prison guard Belkar killed would have come back, had Azure City not fallen to the lich and his hobgoblin horde.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The "Final" scene regarding Miko's death would be her standing on the dock of the Celestial Sea's fishing port, gutting an angelfish...

:miko:Knife goes in, guts come out, that's what Celestia Seafood Concern is all about!

[Shieldage]

Miko's trapped in a not very nice place, right? I doubt Roy's going to see her. However her horse is great at planar travel, right? Maybe he can figure out how to communicate and relay messages using it. He could either summon it to Mount Celestia or travel to it's corral in the Twelve God's plane... but even there I doubt he'll ever be able to see Miko in person

[David Argall]

Unfortunatly for that theory to hold, the story has to be something other than D&D... As long as there is a desire for the deceased to return, and someone willing to bring them back, the character can always return.

You are confusing game rules with literary rules. That by game rules Miko can [or can't for that matter] come back is unimportant. It is the literary rules that apply here, and Miko's death scene is loaded with elements that say [among other things] "end of story". If Miko's return was desired, 464 should have never happened, or should have been written in a distinctly different manner.


The "Final" scene regarding Miko's death would be her standing on the dock of the Celestial Sea's fishing port, gutting an angelfish, talking with Roy, and saying "No. My place is here, now. I was wrong about you, and Lord Shojo, but not about that halfling. I wish you the Twleve Gods' Blessings, but I shall not return to the world."
Certainly possibly, tho it is far from unknown for a character saying this to change her mind on the next page. And note we do have Miko saying "I can live with that." as she dies. That has much the same meaning as your passage.



Miko's trapped in a not very nice place, right?
Well, Shojo might thinks so since he is in the CG realms, but on the available evidence, the closer we put her to LG, the better it fits the facts.

[Holammer]

Semantics and literally technique aside, Miko is hated and loved in equal measure it seems. If the character is closed in a manner as Surfing HalfOrc suggested it'd be bring *definitive* closure to the Miko fans. Heck, we've seen the bandana guy climbing the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), but nothing about Miko. Without the closure it's easy to assume or speculate that Miko's fate or character is kept for later when the story calls for it, even when she isn't.

Having access to a carte blanche story twist like resurrection really does mess things up. Imagine Yikyik back among the living delivering the "blow of fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_de_grace)" on Belkar?

[Warren Dew]

Semantics and literally technique aside, Miko is hated and loved in equal measure it seems. If the character is closed in a manner as Surfing HalfOrc suggested it'd be bring *definitive* closure to the Miko fans. Heck, we've seen the bandana guy climbing the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), but nothing about Miko. Without the closure it's easy to assume or speculate that Miko's fate or character is kept for later when the story calls for it, even when she isn't.

Not showing it also serves a purpose, though: it permits the reader to decide for him or herself which afterlife Miko went to, and whether she can ever admit that she's wrong about something.

I'm a Miko fan - I like stubborn people - but let's face it, she's an NPC. D&D tradition is that NPCs are disposable in the greater scheme of things.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Wrap those speculations of yours into a spoiler box the next time. :smallannoyed: They make too much sense. Thank you.

I had a theory that makes some sense?!? When did that start happening? I mean, uh...sorry, I didn't know speculations needed to be spoiler'd.

Hmmmm...while I'm at it:

Miko will return, when we discover that, in order to be redeemed, she has been tasked with tracking down everyone who has ever derailed a thread into a discussion/argument/flamewar about her and punching them in the face, stealing their mattresses, and eating all of their garlic bread.

[AceOfFools]

Miko will return, when we discover that, in order to be redeemed, she has been tasked with tracking down everyone who has ever derailed a thread into a discussion/argument/flamewar about her and punching them in the face, stealing their mattresses, and eating all of their garlic bread.

But... but... but...

I LIKE my garlic bread!!

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well, you should have thought about that BEFORE you brought Miko up in the 'What's Your Favorite Pudding?" thread.

It started innocently enough; people started discussing the favorite pudding's of various fictional characters, but YOU had to bring up what Miko's favorite pudding was (which I still maintain is butterscotch due to the pensively stoic look in her eyes) and then all hell broke lose.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Oh, great. The pro-butterscotchers barge in and claim another thread as their own. You know perfectly well this one was pegged for caramel!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

You are confusing game rules with literary rules. That by game rules Miko can [or can't for that matter] come back is unimportant. It is the literary rules that apply here, and Miko's death scene is loaded with elements that say [among other things] "end of story". If Miko's return was desired, 464 should have never happened, or should have been written in a distinctly different manner.

OotS IS a story ABOUT a game... Both sets of rules apply. Even with her "Final Death Scene" played out in all its gory goodness, AND with Tsukiko passing on Miko's corpse, Miko still has a possibility to return. The line in 572 where Roy says he remembers everything, meaning he remembers that Miko is dead. And if Miko is dead, she is someone Roy CAN indeed talk to, if he so desires... Does Roy have any questions he might want to ask of Miko? Maybe something about what happened in the throne room? Might be a useful bit of information if you were interested in protecting the gates, and/or stopping Xykon and Redcloak.


Certainly possibly, tho it is far from unknown for a character saying this to change her mind on the next page. And note we do have Miko saying "I can live with that." as she dies. That has much the same meaning as your passage.

Indeed, such is human nature... Jobs left unfinished, redemption needing to be gained, the main reason Miko hated the OotS meeting his untimely (or perfectly timed?) demise?


Well, Shojo might thinks so since he is in the CG realms, but on the available evidence, the closer we put her to LG, the better it fits the facts.

And the Deva's remarks on Roy? That even though he strayed from pure Lawful Good more than occasionally, he was trying to be Lawful Good... Was Miko trying to live up to her code and morals? I think "Yes" is the correct answer here. Miko is in Celestia, just not near the top in the City of Paladins.

Yes, Miko's death certianly appeared from a literary point of view to be "Final." But from a game point of view, she may still have something to contribute.

[David Argall]

OotS IS a story ABOUT a game... Both sets of rules apply.
True, but as we have seen any number of times, game rules are not allowed to get in the way of the story. So when we say 464 is final, game rules simply have no standing.


Does Roy have any questions he might want to ask of Miko? Maybe something about what happened in the throne room? Might be a useful bit of information if you were interested in protecting the gates, and/or stopping Xykon and Redcloak.
Note you say "might be". You can't really think of a serious reason, and neither can I. Given Roy has no desire to go near her, the odds are he is not even going to try to think of a reason.


Indeed, such is human nature... Jobs left unfinished, redemption needing to be gained, the main reason Miko hated the OotS meeting his untimely (or perfectly timed?) demise?
Which is why 464 is so wrong if she was coming back. It does not show her with that desire to finish a job or to seek redemption. She is content, done, finished.

[Draz74]

Of course, Miko is going to be stuck in either the Dungeon of Infinite Smiting, or the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right...

QFT. Miko is still Lawful Good IMHO, but she is the type of LG who will take a very long time to ascend up the mountain because she has too much of the kind of pride that will keep her stuck in these two locations. I'm voting "Dungeon of Infinite Smiting."

[Miko Miyazaki]

Why is everyone saying that miko is sorry for her crimes against the forces of good? i think she is still a self righteous (censored by author of post) .

I am NOT a b*tch, but I am ha-b*tch-uated to evil! Uh, fighting it, that is.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

True, but as we have seen any number of times, game rules are not allowed to get in the way of the story. So when we say 464 is final, game rules simply have no standing.

In many other stories, including D&D type stories, I might agree... But Rich literally drew a Revolving Door in Celestia! Anyone and everyone can come back, if there is a reason.


Note you say "might be". You can't really think of a serious reason, and neither can I. Given Roy has no desire to go near her, the odds are he is not even going to try to think of a reason.

Now this is where I wonder if you're being deliberatly obtuse... You can't think of any reason for Roy to talk to Miko? I figured the reason was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, but if you genuinely can't think of a reason, here is the one I had in mind:

:roy: Miko! Did you see the final battle in the Throne Room?
:miko: Yes. Lord Soon fought valiantly, and nearly defeated the Lich.
:roy: Nearly? What happened?
:miko: I... I made a mistake...
:roy: What mistake?
:miko: While Lord Soon battled the Lich and his goblin henchman, I saw that O-Chul had attempted to destroy the Sapphire above the Sapphire Throne. I completed his mission for him.
:roy: Then?
:miko: Then everything exploded. Lord Soon lost his power, and the Lich escaped.
:roy: ...
:roy: Anything else? Does Xykon have any weaknesses?
:miko: Yes. Lord Soon's sword hurt the Lich. He nearly destroyed Xykon before I ruined everything.
:roy: ...
:roy: Miko, I need you to take me to Lord Soon. Maybe he will share with me the secret to his sword.
:miko: I... I cannot. I am not worthy of entering the Heavenly City of the Paladins.
:roy: Miko. You're human. Humans make mistakes. Even Paladins. What do you think Atonement is for?

And on and on in that vein.


Which is why 464 is so wrong if she was coming back. It does not show her with that desire to finish a job or to seek redemption. She is content, done, finished.

In many Warrior stories, the warrior makes a mistake, and people die. He wants to quit, but doesn't, or is brought back because he is needed. After a period of soul searching, he returns to battle, and redeems himself. Often at the cost of his own life.

Do you see any parallels? I know I certianly do. OotSverse has a revolving door policy on death, yet for some reason you want Miko to be perma-dead. So far, the only way to perma-die is of old age, or refusing to return when called... A goblin mook was returned soley to save Xykon the hassle of getting his spare keys out of his desk. Eugene came back four times, Roy should be back fairly soon, and even a lowly prison guard would have been dusted off and put back on his feet if only Xykon had held off in attacking for another 24 hours.

[B.I.T.T.]

Well if I could throw my two cents in, I'd have to say that if Miko does reappear it's going to be out of comedy rather then plot. She's already accomplished what she needed to in the story. Plus Roy's not likely to see her in the clouds anyway because he's been spending the bulk of his time either watching the physical realm from the clouds, or floating around the physical realm making the occasional snarky comment.

As for Miko's alignment...well that's a topic for a different thread.

[David Argall]

In many other stories, including D&D type stories, I might agree... But Rich literally drew a Revolving Door in Celestia! Anyone and everyone can come back, if there is a reason.
IF there is a reason. And that is the problem. 464 is a negative reason, solid evidence that Miko is not coming back.


Now this is where I wonder if you're being deliberatly obtuse... You can't think of any reason for Roy to talk to Miko? I figured the reason was so obvious that it didn't need to be stated, but if you genuinely can't think of a reason, here is the one I had in mind:

:roy: Miko! Did you see the final battle in the Throne Room?
:miko: Yes. Lord Soon fought valiantly, and nearly defeated the Lich.
:roy: Nearly? What happened?
:miko: I... I made a mistake...
:roy: What mistake?
:miko: While Lord Soon battled the Lich and his goblin henchman, I saw that O-Chul had attempted to destroy the Sapphire above the Sapphire Throne. I completed his mission for him.
:roy: Then?
:miko: Then everything exploded. Lord Soon lost his power, and the Lich escaped.
:roy: ...
:roy: Anything else? Does Xykon have any weaknesses?
:miko: Yes. Lord Soon's sword hurt the Lich. He nearly destroyed Xykon before I ruined everything.
:roy: ...
:roy: Miko, I need you to take me to Lord Soon. Maybe he will share with me the secret to his sword.
:miko: I... I cannot. I am not worthy of entering the Heavenly City of the Paladins.
:roy: Miko. You're human. Humans make mistakes. Even Paladins. What do you think Atonement is for?

And on and on in that vein.
I just do not see it.
The conversation is possible if Miko and Roy ran into each other, but there is nothing there for Roy to be seeking out Miko.
Roy does not know Miko died in the throne room [Apparently, the last he knew, Miko was in a cell that was destroyed when the castle went blooey.] , nor that Soon was there [unless he learned of it in ways that make Miko unnecessary]. And he would not learn that Soon's sword hurt the lich particularly much because there is no evidence it did. [All of the ghosts were able to hurt Xykon. Soon, being the most powerful, did the big damage. It is Roy who already has a lich hurting sword.]


In many Warrior stories, the warrior makes a mistake, and people die. He wants to quit, but doesn't, or is brought back because he is needed. After a period of soul searching, he returns to battle, and redeems himself. ...
Do you see any parallels? I know I certianly do.
I see parallels, and I see differences. The most important may be that this is the story of the OOTS, not the story of Miko's redemption. However useful she has been, she is still an NPC and only secondary. There is not going to be a hundred pages devoted to her recovery.
Miko doesn't want to quit, she is content to be benched. She has not yet even accepted that she make a mistake. Nor do we have anybody who appears interested in bringing her back.
But we come back to 464. It is just too final, too definite in tone. Characters given this sort of scene are over, dead, done with, finished.


for some reason you want Miko to be perma-dead.
??? You have read some of my Miko posts, haven't you? I have praised Miko as perhaps the best character in the strip, and certainly a great contribution to the story. I have criticized her death as a very bad idea. But in this, as in a great many other things, the writer didn't ask my opinion, and has done something else. I do not have to like that in the least in order to accept that this is what happened.


So far, the only way to perma-die is of old age, or refusing to return when called... A goblin mook was returned soley to save Xykon the hassle of getting his spare keys out of his desk. Eugene came back four times, Roy should be back fairly soon,
The goblin was merely spoke with dead, not revived. Eugene came back six times. Roy is unlikely to be back before 600.
But the matter is simply unimportant. Miko can be brought back if the plot demands it, and won't be if the plot doesn't. The mechanical details are just window dressing.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

IF there is a reason. And that is the problem. 464 is a negative reason, solid evidence that Miko is not coming back.

Are you trying to prove a negative? :smallwink:


I just do not see it.
The conversation is possible if Miko and Roy ran into each other, but there is nothing there for Roy to be seeking out Miko.

Until now, Roy didn't know Miko's status. Now he does, and Miko is one of the few people he can talk to about the current situation. The living cannot hear him, Eugene can't offer much insight for the warrior classes, but Miko can do both.


Roy does not know Miko died in the throne room [Apparently, the last he knew, Miko was in a cell that was destroyed when the castle went blooey.] , nor that Soon was there [unless he learned of it in ways that make Miko unnecessary]. And he would not learn that Soon's sword hurt the lich particularly much because there is no evidence it did. [All of the ghosts were able to hurt Xykon. Soon, being the most powerful, did the big damage. It is Roy who already has a lich hurting sword.]

Roy might want an upgrade, especially of one is available. Based on my hypothetical conversation, Miko would be providing Roy with new information that he could follow up on, but only if he does indeed talk to her.


I see parallels, and I see differences. The most important may be that this is the story of the OOTS, not the story of Miko's redemption. However useful she has been, she is still an NPC and only secondary. There is not going to be a hundred pages devoted to her recovery.

Miko's redemption may not need a hundred pages. When Valaria came back to save Conan, she had what? Less than five seconds? But it was all she needed. Miko doesn't need an entire story arc, she can redeem herself in as little as one panel...


Miko doesn't want to quit, she is content to be benched. She has not yet even accepted that she make a mistake. Nor do we have anybody who appears interested in bringing her back.
But we come back to 464. It is just too final, too definite in tone. Characters given this sort of scene are over, dead, done with, finished.

Her attempt to gain Soon Kim's approval for her actions, and her downcast look when Soon Kim told her that she had NOT done well implies quite the opposite. She made a mistake, and at long last she was willing to admit she might have been wrong. Not soon enough to actually do anything to change herself, but at least then she was willing to listen to someone else. And now she been dead for the same amount of time as Roy. She may have done some more thinking in that time.


??? You have read some of my Miko posts, haven't you? I have praised Miko as perhaps the best character in the strip, and certainly a great contribution to the story. I have criticized her death as a very bad idea. But in this, as in a great many other things, the writer didn't ask my opinion, and has done something else. I do not have to like that in the least in order to accept that this is what happened.

I have read your posts, but sometimes I wonder if you bother to read mine... :smallfrown: In almost any other story you would be right... Miko would be dead, never to return. But THIS story is a bit different. Resurrection is available to those who need it and can afford it. In fact, why would the Oracle even bother mentioning Miko's status if she wasn't going to pop up sometime in the future?


The goblin was merely spoke with dead, not revived. Eugene came back six times. Roy is unlikely to be back before 600.
But the matter is simply unimportant. Miko can be brought back if the plot demands it, and won't be if the plot doesn't. The mechanical details are just window dressing.

With Eugene coming back six times it bolsters my argument that Miko will also return. Death is not very perminent in OotSverse. And yeah, she's an NPC, but so what? So is Xykon. Roy blasted him to bits by throwing him into the rune, and HE came back. It turned out to be quite important to the plot, don't you think?

[Warren Dew]

Her attempt to gain Soon Kim's approval for her actions, and her downcast look when Soon Kim told her that she had NOT done well implies quite the opposite. She made a mistake, and at long last she was willing to admit she might have been wrong.

I think the mistake she needs to atone for is not the destruction of the gate - that was at most a tactical mistake, and it's not clear it was even that - but killing Shojo. Soon implies this when he refers to "past" misdeeds - the ones that caused her to lose her paladin status. It's not clear at all to me that she's ready to admit that as a mistake.

If Roy needs to know something from her for plot purposes, she might reappear in a cameo. I can't imagine it will be any more than that, though. As David says, it's not her story.

[David Argall]

Are you trying to prove a negative?
It would be less work since the burden falls on those trying to prove the positive.



Until now, Roy didn't know Miko's status. Now he does, and Miko is one of the few people he can talk to about the current situation.
About 10,000 candidates died the same day. Most of them were grunts who wouldn't know much, but Roy isn't trying to contact any of them. Instead, he is just playing D&D. Apparently he can't think of anything they might know that is worth the bother of finding out.


Roy does not know Miko died in the throne room [Apparently, the last he knew, Miko was in a cell that was destroyed when the castle went blooey.] , nor that Soon was there [unless he learned of it in ways that make Miko unnecessary]. And he would not learn that Soon's sword hurt the lich particularly much because there is no evidence it did. [All of the ghosts were able to hurt Xykon. Soon, being the most powerful, did the big damage. It is Roy who already has a lich hurting sword.]


Roy might want an upgrade, especially of one is available. Based on my hypothetical conversation, Miko would be providing Roy with new information that he could follow up on, but only if he does indeed talk to her.
But what reason does he have for wanting to talk with her? He doesn't know she knows anything, and considers her unpleasant to be around. If he just happened to run into her, this is fine. But why would he want to hunt her down?


Miko's redemption may not need a hundred pages. When Valaria came back to save Conan, she had what? Less than five seconds? But it was all she needed.
I have never seen the movie, but the original story had her pledging to come back to save him, which is not the situation we have here.


Miko doesn't need an entire story arc, she can redeem herself in as little as one panel...
One strip, possibly. One panel, not a chance. There is just too much to explain.


Her attempt to gain Soon Kim's approval for her actions, and her downcast look when Soon Kim told her that she had NOT done well implies quite the opposite. She made a mistake, and at long last she was willing to admit she might have been wrong.
But Soon does not say she had not done well. Nor does he say she made a mistake. Rather, he says that her actions worked out badly. They may have been the correct actions based on what she knew, but it would have been better if she had not done them. She made a mistake in killing Shojo, but it is not at all clear she made any in destroying the Gate.


now she been dead for the same amount of time as Roy. She may have done some more thinking in that time.
Certainly possible, but we have the general picture of the soul not changing after death. It's too late to reform. So we are talking about no more than a maybe.


In almost any other story you would be right... Miko would be dead, never to return. But THIS story is a bit different. Resurrection is available to those who need it and can afford it.
But as noted, this is unimportant. The typical soap has hundreds of ways to "raise the dead". A special spell just is not needed. The fact there is a spell that can make return routine is trivial. Miko could easily return to life in a fully mundane story, and can fail to in even the most magical story.


In fact, why would the Oracle even bother mentioning Miko's status if she wasn't going to pop up sometime in the future?
The Oracle is talking about the fufilling of Belkar's question. He asked if he would cause the death of Roy/Miko/horse/... And so whether the death of Miko qualified was a reasonable subject for the Oracle.


And yeah, she's an NPC, but so what? So is Xykon. Roy blasted him to bits by throwing him into the rune, and HE came back. It turned out to be quite important to the plot, don't you think?
It was obviously important right from the start, and it happened right away. Miko has been dead for over 100 strips now. By that point Xykon had had his evilgasm and had appeared in a dozen strips since his "death".
Miko appeared once, to show even more that she was dead, dead, dead.

[Warren Dew]

??? You have read some of my Miko posts, haven't you? I have praised Miko as perhaps the best character in the strip, and certainly a great contribution to the story. I have criticized her death as a very bad idea. But in this, as in a great many other things, the writer didn't ask my opinion, and has done something else. I do not have to like that in the least in order to accept that this is what happened.

Do you, or anyone, have links to those threads? I'm interested in reading them, but I can't figure out how to go more than four pages back.

[David Argall]

Go to the bottom of the page and look for Display Options. Find where it says "from the" and click the V. You get a number of options and can select as you deem best. Then click on Show Threads and wait a moment and you can go back a lot more that 4 pages.

[FujinAkari]

It would be less work since the burden falls on those trying to prove the positive.

If this were a debate between "X will happen" and "X will not happen" this would be correct. However, it seems more like a debate between "X can happen" and "X cannot happen" wherein the harder burden falls on those trying to prove the impossibility.


About 10,000 candidates died the same day. Most of them were grunts who wouldn't know much, but Roy isn't trying to contact any of them. Instead, he is just playing D&D. Apparently he can't think of anything they might know that is worth the bother of finding out.

Considering that your entire argument rests on the tenants of good storytelling, it is quite surprising that you attempt to create Roy wanting to talk to some random guy whom he has never met before, and wanting to talk to Miko with whom he has had a very dramatic and explosive history.

If Roy decides to investigate the events of the Battle (and yes, -if- we're still talking possible vs impossible) than good storytelling will have him talk to Miko rather than some nobody with whom the scene would merely be bland.


But what reason does he have for wanting to talk with her? He doesn't know she knows anything, and considers her unpleasant to be around. If he just happened to run into her, this is fine. But why would he want to hunt her down?

This again? Boredom, Curiosity, or even a wish to mend fences. He has recently felt deep shame towards Eugene due to his refusal to work things out with his mom and might see finding Miko as 'the right thing to do' rather that bear an eternal grudge.

There are a lot of viable reasons, pick one.


Certainly possible, but we have the general picture of the soul not changing after death. It's too late to reform. So we are talking about no more than a maybe.

Where do we see this picture? Roy seems to have changed quite a bit since he died. He has let go of his hatred for his father and is beginning to accept his inability to control the party, able to 'enjoy' his afterlife while still wanting to go back.


It was obviously important right from the start, and it happened right away. Miko has been dead for over 100 strips now. By that point Xykon had had his evilgasm and had appeared in a dozen strips since his "death".
Miko appeared once, to show even more that she was dead, dead, dead.

You don't know much about the artistic use of white space, huh?

Often times leaving -out- a critical detail is a means of drawing attention to it. If Rich wanted Miko to be dead, dead, dead he would either have shown her in the afterlife, content with what she had done, or never reintroduced her into the strip. You'll notice that Yikyik, Trigak, and the Chief of Cliffport have never been seen, or even mentioned again, since their deaths. There is -no- speculation that they might be coming back, and that is largely because they have exitted the story.

Miko, by contrast, continues to be active in the story. Her corpse is shown (which, in and of itself, is highly unusual) and she has been mentioned three or four times since her death.

[Ninja]

If this were a debate between "X will happen" and "X will not happen" this would be correct. However, it seems more like a debate between "X can happen" and "X cannot happen" wherein the harder burden falls on those trying to prove the impossibility.

well, since almost everything can happen in the OOTSverse, i find it more a will - won't debate.....



Often times leaving -out- a critical detail is a means of drawing attention to it. If Rich wanted Miko to be dead, dead, dead he would either have shown her in the afterlife, content with what she had done, or never reintroduced her into the strip. You'll notice that Yikyik, Trigak, and the Chief of Cliffport have never been seen, or even mentioned again, since their deaths. There is -no- speculation that they might be coming back, and that is largely because they have exitted the story.

yes but chief, yikyik, and the chimera are just... how do you say it... one time characters... only appear once get killed and that's it... but Miko had a significantly greater impact on the comic that all of them so it's normal she would draw more attention to herself....



Miko, by contrast, continues to be active in the story. Her corpse is shown (which, in and of itself, is highly unusual) and she has been mentioned three or four times since her death.

her corpse was shown once, only as a joke.... and she has been mentioned only by the Oracle when he was trying to convince him about his prophecy.....

but. it is still posible Miko will return.... Roy might bump into her in the afterlife, or feel an urge to visit her, but IMHO i don't think it will happen

[FujinAkari]

her corpse was shown once, only as a joke.... and she has been mentioned only by the Oracle when he was trying to convince him about his prophecy.....

If you define 'mention' as 'explicitly mention by name' maybe.

However, O-chul referenced Miko when he was discussing with the MitD how his 'secret club' allowed both men and women, which worked out well "with one exception."

One of the rival sects of survivors which opposed Haley was set up with a deliberately Mikoan mindset, which was that the Order of the Stick was an evil band of adventurers that had brought about the downfall of the city.

Tsukiko comments that she needs to create a 'really powerful undead warrior' after discussing with Xykon how to torment O-chul after Redcloak gets mad about him trying to feed the prisoner to sharks, which is a deliberate throwback to her commentary when standing over Miko's corpse.



Yeah, she hasn't been explicitly mentioned all that much, but she keeps being referenced within the story.

Edit: You'll also notice that even more major dead characters, such as Samantha and her dad, largely pass without acknowledgment. Samantha has been dead for nearly 400 strips and been referenced once, which is a fifth of the times Miko has been referenced.

[David Argall]

If this were a debate between "X will happen" and "X will not happen" this would be correct. However, it seems more like a debate between "X can happen" and "X cannot happen" wherein the harder burden falls on those trying to prove the impossibility.
Not at all. The burden falls heavily on whoever is saying it can happen. In any real world case, the number of ways it can happen are quite large, and any one of them means it can happen. So it rapidly becomes impossible to prove the negative.
I can say "there is no elephant in this hut" and the burden either way is about the same, but when I say "There are no mice in this hotel", the difficulty of proving that is obviously great, while you need only find one mouse in one room to prove it false. So it becomes your burden to prove that the statement is false.


Considering that your entire argument rests on the tenants of good storytelling, it is quite surprising that you attempt to create Roy wanting to talk to some random guy whom he has never met before, and wanting to talk to Miko with whom he has had a very dramatic and explosive history.
The point is the validity of any excuse Roy would have to talk with Miko. Here the claim is that Miko might have useful information to tell him. But Roy knows that some of those who died have useful information, and he is not making the effort to find that information. Probably correctly since it is doubtful the information is that useful, but if he is not talking to the blind seer or the general, what reason is there to talk to Miko?, who, as far as he knows, just sat in a cell the whole battle until she died in the explosion. Sure, she Might have information, but he is passing up better sources. Why should he go to the extra hassle of seeing the inferior?


If Roy decides to investigate the events of the Battle
And the point is that he hasn't. And 4+ months have passed. The battle is history. Why bother now?


This again? Boredom, Curiosity, or even a wish to mend fences. He has recently felt deep shame towards Eugene due to his refusal to work things out with his mom and might see finding Miko as 'the right thing to do' rather that bear an eternal grudge.
Might, might, might... But all of this is just excuses. If the writer wanted Miko back, he might use any of them. But none of them give us any reason to think the writer has any such plans or desires.



Where do we see this picture? Roy seems to have changed quite a bit since he died. He has let go of his hatred for his father and is beginning to accept his inability to control the party, able to 'enjoy' his afterlife while still wanting to go back.
Now where do we see any of this? We haven't had much Eugene-Roy interaction since Eugene kicked him to the mortal realm. And before that, he had been treating Eugene as his needed tool. As to accepting, all that seems to have changed is that Roy has accepted there is nothing he can do, not that he is going to be any difference once he is back.


If Rich wanted Miko to be dead, dead, dead he would either have shown her in the afterlife, content with what she had done, or never reintroduced her into the strip.
There is nothing, zip, nada, zero, that makes a fiction character dead, dead, dead. No matter what is put in the comic/book/script, he or she can pop back almost immediately in perfect health. See...
http://www.brunothebandit.com/d/20080331.html

So we must depend on the larger picture. 464 is just written in a final manner, one that tells us the character is over and done with. It would be a serious flaw to reverse that.


You'll notice that Yikyik, Trigak, and the Chief of Cliffport have never been seen, or even mentioned again, since their deaths. There is -no- speculation that they might be coming back, and that is largely because they have exitted the story.
No, it is because they are small time characters who didn't gather the needed fans.


Miko, by contrast, continues to be active in the story. Her corpse is shown (which, in and of itself, is highly unusual) and she has been mentioned three or four times since her death.
All in story circumstances where the mention made sense whether or not she was returning.


You'll also notice that even more major dead characters, such as Samantha and her dad, largely pass without acknowledgment. Samantha has been dead for nearly 400 strips and been referenced once, which is a fifth of the times Miko has been referenced.
And Miko is a much more important character, so that is hardly surprising.

[Hoplite]

Miko indeed is a very important character in the story, she was needed to introduce the OotS to the new plot and bring them to where they are now. She might even be THE most important character after the Order, but I think she has done was she had to do and had died a very most heroic/tragic death. She was a great character, my favorite in the comic, but bringing her back would be a bad idea I think, unless there is a whole lot of Miko that still needs to be seen.

[archon_huskie]

Miko could be seeking attonement in the after life by visiting all the people she's offended and apologizing for her behavior having realized that she was in fact wrong.

Eventunally she reaches Roy to apologize to him. But just as she walks up to him to speak, Roy is resurrected. Comedy Gold.

[yanmaodao]

I think that the way Miko died pretty much precludes her from being included in any more plot hooks, and that if she appears again - IF - it will be a one-shot afterlife scene that both serves to fully close out all available loose ends as Surging Half-Orc mentioned, and a bit of fanservice for the diehard Miko fans. I still think the most likely thing to happen is that Miko doesn't appear again at all.

And perhaps, that's for the best. Miko's death was handled very well. An essentially unlikeable character given a sympathetic death scene (her last line was perfect) is a theatric masterstroke, as I'm sure Elan would agree. Why spoil it? The reader's uncertainty as to just where Miko went after her death only adds to this, and perhaps this is a loose end that's better off remaining untied.


Not at all. The burden falls heavily on whoever is saying it can happen. In any real world case, the number of ways it can happen are quite large, and any one of them means it can happen. So it rapidly becomes impossible to prove the negative.

"You can't prove a negative" is one of the most misused elements of argumentation. It only applies to universal negatives. For instance, "you do not have a dog" is not privileged over "you have a dog" w/r/t burden of proof, because it does not involve a universal statement. "Miko will not return in a later strip" does not involve a universal statement. (Neither, for that matter, is "there are no mice in this hotel".)

I agree with Ninja that though technically it's a can/can't debate, in effect it has become a will/won't debate.

David Argall, I find something... problematic about your manner of debating thus far. I'm saying this as someone who has essentially agreed with what you have said so far. You speak of "proving" whether or not something is possible in a freaking fantasy webcomic. Even forgetting for a moment that we're talking about a fantasy webcomic, you can't "prove" idle conjecture, which is what we're - both sides - doing here. The pro-Miko comeback crowd have provided a rational (though unlikely) means by which Miko may fully re-enter the story; whatever "burden of proof" there is inherent in our whimsical speculations, they've met it. Yet there is this snide, smarmy undercurrent to some of your posts that implies that they haven't, and that you are just that much more rational than everyone else.

Really, how hard is it to just say, "Miko could come back, but is unlikely to, and in fact considering the manner in which she died, it would be a bad idea", as I have done?

[David Argall]

"You can't prove a negative" is one of the most misused elements of argumentation. It only applies to universal negatives.
And for most practical purposes, a whole lot of non-universals are universals.
The stricture against proving negatives is largely a practical rule. Proving negatives is routinely the more difficult, and is often humanly impossible. How would I prove there are no mice in a hotel. I can look in each room, but we know the mice will hide and flee. I nearly have to look everywhere at the same time. I can find evidence of large numbers of mice fairly easily, but when the number is small? Again, I have to look at some fantastic number of negative results and still can't be sure I didn't overlook some. It's something I can devote my life to, and still fail to have a solid result. So one places the burden on the other side. One lousy mouse caught and the issue is settled.


For instance, "you do not have a dog" is not privileged over "you have a dog" w/r/t burden of proof, because it does not involve a universal statement.
The plea "I do not have a dog" is in fact privileged over "your dog bit me". The court might not demand much in the way of proof, and might be rather skeptical about any argument of mine that because I let him sleep in my house and feed him is not grounds to deem him my dog. But you would be under the duty to show some proof I did in fact have the dog in question. By contrast, my simple statement would be allowed to stand without any support.


The pro-Miko comeback crowd have provided a rational (though unlikely) means by which Miko may fully re-enter the story;

The word is "plausible", and barely that. "Not impossible" might be a better term. The currect discussion started with the 'logic' that since Roy was not shown in a strip, he must be on the way to find Miko.