OOTS #568 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Draz74]

Well, that certainly answers my questions about how the Oracle Visit Subplot can actually matter to the plot.

Feel like a solo adventure, Haley? (OK, at least you have a DMPC with you ... although Celia matches the stereotypes about DMPCs a little too well for that to be very comforting.)

That's the problem with killing someone who knows you're going to kill them everything. :smallamused:

[nosignal]

Holy crap that's dramatic. The oracle really owned hard in this one.

[Moebius]

I kinda doubt I'm the only one who didn't recall the exact terms of the MoJ, so...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html

"No, seriously, give 'em a good once-over!" *snerk*

[griffinguy24]

WOW, I normally lurk and enjoy, but the rapid-fire release of pages has been nothing but excellence.

And thanks to Law of Conservation of Detail, we finally have the Mark of Justice used. And I love that the oracle had the foresight (pun totally intended) to give one last "**** you" to Belkar.

He and kobolds... he stabs them, but this time they get the last laugh on him.

Anywho, I love it, and I don't know what caused such quick page releases, but I hope whatever caused it continues. Best of luck, and continue this amazing work

[Deathtouched]

Does it seem that every time someone makes a reasonable prediction about future events, it comes true? Yesterday everyone said Belkar would kill the Oracle (obvious), but today I read a post by someone predicting it would happen in a town so Belkar would get Marked. And others were wondering why the Oracle would have let himself be killed without a backup measure if he KNEW he would be killed. And now we have Belkar > Oracle, Belkar in town, town of Lick-halfling created by oracle. It just so... wonderfully perfect. :smallsmile:

[Shadic]

...Now is the comment that Belkar got from the Oracle (Of him dying soon) going to come true?

They'd have to bring back both Belkar AND Roy.

Well, they may not want Belkar back.

[afroakuma]

Well played, Oracle.

[Remirach]

Dear LORD yes. I was hoping this plot was actually going somewhere, but seeing Belkar finally get some measure of his just desserts is just too awesome for words. The Oracle couldn't prevent his own death, but he could get his posthumous revenge. That's cool, although I'm sad he had to die. Dude was funny.

Also, we've been getting a LOT of updates in a very short period of time!

[Terraxos]

Ha ha, this one was brilliant. I literally laughed out loud at the end.

It was inevitable that the Oracle was going to die - he knew that much himself - but it's good to see he got his revenge in first. :) (Love the name of the city, by the way.)

(And this is the first time the comic has updated while I was reading it. Nice.)

[Yendor]

That's just awesome. Mr. Burlew, you have outdone yourself.

[Ninjamuffin]

This is the exact reason why I need to keep an opera house full of people on hand, so I could give this comic the standing ovation it deserves.

[Trazoi]

Finally, sweet, sweet justice against the serial kobold murderer!

And yeah, I had a suspicion the Oracle wouldn't purposely get clogged without something up his sleeve. This was very much in character, and a great comic.

[the_tick_rules]

Has anyone asked if the oracle knew why didn't he go on vacation? I know it's coming.

[silvadel]

Hah! I called that one -- The oracle knew he was going to die by the halfling and he posthumously managed to get the MoJ to go off... :)

I loved the wile e coyote game physics at the end (the mark didnt actually go off till he saw the villiage behind him).

[Dark Wolf]

A good running gag would be if the Oracle sunk all his money into plans to mess with Belkar for the rest of his life.

[SteveMB]

The Oracle PWNZ Belkar from beyond the grave!

[DanShive]

YES! Suck it, Belkar!

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh damn! The MoJ!
Good for the oracle. :smallbiggrin:

[Uncle Festy]

:smallamused:
Well played, Oracle. Well played.
Love the rapid-fire updates. Lots of fun all around. Keep 'em coming, Mr. Burlew! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

Actually I wonder what would happen if he humiliated himself by actually following his instructions....

The oracle is anything if not literal.

[JohnnyPsycho]

Holy crap, not only does the new page come out while I'm on the site (the second time that's happened this week! Rich is on a roll!), but just before I was going to respond to things in the discussion thread for the last page.

I love the fact that the kobold oracle didn't do anything to prevent his own demise, since again he obviously saw it coming. After all, what good are prophecies if you're allowed to side-step fate? Still, I literally laughed out loud in triumph to see Belkar (who is still one of my favorite characters, even if he's a jerkass sociopath) get what was coming to him... after all, the only other character who seemed to match Belkar in snide sarcasm was the Oracle, and you know he couldn't kill such a worthy opponent and get away scot-free. The big sign in the town was just the icing on the cake.

Now, what are the chances the newly-dead oracle and the much-longer-dead Roy will exchange words now that they're both incorporeal spirits? My bet's that the oracle gets one "yo mama" joke in before he's taken to whatever after-life kobolds of his alignment go to.

Makes you wonder what the Oracle's alignment is... my money's on True Neutral. Why? Just 'cuz...

[bibliophile20]

I have just one thing to say (and finally registered to do so):

OWNED!

With Style!


And can anybody else (of us readers, that is :smallbiggrin: ) just see Roy insubstantially standing there, shaking his head and giving the ghostly equivilent of a deep sigh?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well.. Belkar finally paid for his actions, and will die. Good thing. Good plot twist!

I can't say I am surprised about the quality of the plot twist. That is a Giant-grade writing, and I love it. Good work Rich, I love it!

[SlightlyEvil]

Well, I sure didn't see that one coming. Belkar had been getting a little out of hand, great way to bring him back down.

[chiasaur11]

Wow.
So...many...updates.

I knew the Oracle wouldn't make big mistakes in a revenge attempt.

Good show.

[Borris]

Mwa ha ha ha ha! (This was an evil laugh.)

Ever since Tucker's kobolds, Kobold revenges are always the best. Especially if they're imbued with divine and/or draconic (in this case both) powers.

[Mando Knight]

Well, now that Belkster's activated the MoJ once, will it stay on him?:smallamused:

If not, and he realizes this, then there's a kobold-head hut to be made.
If not, and he doesn't realize it, then he's going to continue avoiding towns and such until someone tells him it's not there anymore.

If it does stay, and he doesn't think so, then he'll be in a lot of pain when he tries to get his revenge on the town of Lick-ling.
If it stays and he knows it, then he'll continue in the same fear of it as before (unless, of course, he finds out that it's some homebrewed curse that was simply put there to make him live in fear of Roy and the Sapphire Guard's wrath...)

[Lira]

Yesss! I'm very happy right now. That Oracle was smarter than I thought, and I love the name of the settlement.

[Wyvern_55]

*standing ovation*

Giant, you have earned a gold star in my books.

[Grunthos]

OK, Rich, you got me. I was committed to remaining a lurker... until this strip. Without exaggeration, this made my day. It's been 20 minutes, and I've been through the registration process in the meantime, and I'm still laughing.

Thank you.

[LostOne]

This was a long time coming.

I thought I'd point out for some of the above posters that Roy's explanation indicates that Belkar won't be in any shape to slaughter a town soon. On the other extreme, Roy doesn't say it will kill him either. Not that he doesn't deserve it. Roy's explanation can be found to in the strip Moebius linked to above:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html

[Aerysil]

That was just about the most clever thing I've ever seen. I totally forgot about the mark... then again, I didn't know they were in a city :)

[holywhippet]

Best of all, the oracle might have a kobold cleric standing by with a raise dead/ressurect spell so he can mock Belkar before he leaves. I wonder how many ranks Haley has in use magical device. She might be able to cast ressurection off of a scroll.

[rmromero]

Nice. I remain impressed.

[ideasmith]

The oracle just got an upgrade to cool.


I kinda doubt I'm the only one who didn't recall the exact terms of the MoJ, so...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html



Thank you.


Does it seem that every time someone makes a reasonable prediction about future events, it comes true?

The predictions I made don't seem to have.


Has anyone asked if the oracle knew why didn't he go on vacation? I know it's coming.

Either he couldn't, or he wanted to off Belkar just that badly. Mayby some of the other kobolds Belkar killed were relatives.

[Red XIV]

Has anyone asked if the oracle knew why didn't he go on vacation? I know it's coming.
He's an oracle. He knows better than anybody that if you try to avoid a fated event, it will do you know good (and will usually somehow cause exactly what you're trying to avoid).

[krossbow]

Best.



Comic.



Ever.





Belkar=== owned.

[FoE]

Oh, that was waaaay too funny. He may have been a scaly little jerk, but that Oracle sure knew how to exact revenge on his killer. That was a Crowning Moment of Awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrowningMomentOfAwesome) if I ever saw one. I'm almost sad to see him dead now ...

[Leigh]

Ah, the perfect plot twist. Good for the kobold! I just hope that nothing horribly permanent happens to Belkar...

[Paragon Badger]

You can't fight fate.

[Ramien]

Well, now we know Roy and Shinjo weren't bluffing about the mark of Justice...

I just like how the village was set up explicitly to let Belkar know exactly what was going on and why.

[DrivinAllNight]

Damn Belkar, my favorite character is now going to have to be a sickened little halfling until someone can remove the mark of justice from him, since the rules say nothing about killing him, just sickening him so he is incapable of hurting anyone again. I do wonder how many kobolds he could kill before he got to sick to stand though.

[eilandesq]

Hmmm. . .

I wouldn't want to be near Belkar when someone points out that a Mark of Justice only duplicates the effect of a Bestow Curse spell, which has effects as follows:

You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.

–6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).

–4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.

You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.

Unless Rich has house-ruled that sucker for the purpose of tormenting Belkar, the Mark can't weaken him more than one of the above effects. That would be a rather dangerous handicap if he's up against a CR 13 monster--but those presumably mostly CR 1/4 kobolds are still going to be shredded without much trouble.

[RedScholarGypsy]

I don't know what's funnier, the post mortem finger from the grave, or the poetic justice of it.

Also, who else has Chef's 'Chocolate salty balls' song stuck in their head? Raise your hands, don't be shy.

[Porthos]

BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am literally doubled over in laughter right now.

MASSIVE STANDING OVATION FOR TEH GIANT!!!!!

Every time I look at the sign I break out in hysterical laughter.

BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[dogmac]

GO THE MIGHTY ORACLE!!!!

I particularly like the "just enough" population

[StGlebidiah]

I kinda doubt I'm the only one who didn't recall the exact terms of the MoJ, so...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html

"No, seriously, give 'em a good once-over!" *snerk*

You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. I've been trying to find that for an hour.

[Brasswatchman]

Forgive me, but OOH! Burn.

[SmartAlec]

Ahaha!

Aw man. I'm gonna miss the Oracle. :smallcool:

[spite48]

Very nice Mr. Giant sir. The sign was fantastic.

[Vulion]

Oh dang, Giant you have left me absolutely drooling for the next installment. May your week of rapid updates continue!

[Savageman]

Okay, I've been following this comic for a while, not since the beginning but at least since the Order first stepped into Azure City. I have always enjoyed it, even during some of the slower, less plot-centric points, and I find the jokes pretty damn funny most of the time. I wanted, first, to express my appreciation to the Giant for writing this comic. It's awesome.

Second, this is my first time posting in this particular thread. Never felt the urge before. But now, I just have to say:

THAT WAS AWESOME!

Seriously, thanks for continuing to make such a great comic.

[Kwarkpudding]

Loved it. It's great to see how the Oracle planned his revenge ahead. He definitely is smarter than I thought. It still is very useful to have seeing powers, even if you can't avoid a prophecy, you can still go out of way to annoy your cause of death :smallsmile:

And I think it's about time Belkar got what he deserved, his killing everything and anything in his path started to annoy me :smallamused:

And "Population: Just enough" Pure Awesome

[Zanatos777]

I would take my hat off to you Giant if I wore a hat.

[Savageman]

Okay, I've been following this comic for a while, not since the beginning but at least since the Order first stepped into Azure City. I have always enjoyed it, even during some of the slower, less plot-centric points, and I find the jokes pretty damn funny most of the time. I wanted, first, to express my appreciation to the Giant for writing this comic. It's awesome.

Second, this is my first time posting in this particular thread. Never felt the urge before. But now, I just have to say:

THAT WAS AWESOME!

Seriously, thanks for continuing to make such a great comic.

[TheWarBlade]

This strip has my vote as the most epic strip ever.

The timing was tooo perfect. And this also proves that Kobolds will live anywhere. They are truely the most awesome creature in dungeons and dragons.

[plainsfox]

*raises a toast in memory of the Kobold oracle*

for being able to do something that no one was willing to do in a long, long while.

[BooTheHamster]

Lickmyorangeballshalfling - Fun for the whole family.

Now featuring a new tourist attraction: Meet Belkar, the recipient of the biggest case of Kobold ownage in the world!

Call now and receive our new Roleplaying XP bonus package! You get a coupon for one free kick to any part of Belkar's body as 'revenge' for his actions against you, your family, or kobold kind*.


*XP awarded may vary. Consult your local DM for XP award rates. Lickmyorangeballshalflingis not responsible for foot injuries sustained when using the coupon. If you experience remorse at hurting a magically restrained, utterly defenseless halfling, be sure to remember he's a heartless bastard. Offer expires on upon next update.

[khourytamarisk]

Obviously Wisdom is Belkar's dump stat.

Kobolds FTW! :biggrin:

[Halvormerlinaky]

BEST. TOWN. NAME. EVER!

That is all.

[thereaper]

Wow. Talk about a lot of updates in a short time! Don't work yourself into an early grave, ok Giant?

I have to say, this feels very satisfying. It's about time Belkar got what was coming to him. :smallwink:

[Querzis]

Oh my god I never laughed that much since...actually I dont think I ever laughed that much. Finally the little bastard get what he deserve, this is great. I think this might be my new favorite strip ever!

[MReav]

Go Oracle! Go Oracle! It's your deathday... uh uh uh!

[Lunaya]

Aw, poor Belkar. Though he probably had this coming for a long time. I have to give a big round of applause to the Oracle. Best last word, Ever.

It looked like smoke rising off of Belkar's MoJ. Aside from burning his forehead, I'm curious to see what exactly the Mark is going to do to him. Roy said that Belkar would get progressively sicker and I wonder just how Haley and Celia are going to deal with this.

[factotum]

I can't help feeling that Rich is enjoying this little sequence as much as we are, which is why he's churning them out at such a rate. Just awesome, especially the Mark of Justice not actually taking effect until Belkar saw the village out the back...

[Trizap]

This comic hath earned:

THE FIVE STARS OF TRIZAPIAN APPROVAL!

[Selene]

Rich, you are totally filled with awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I absolutely LOVE the update speed this week. It's like Christmas, but better because OotS. :smallcool: Thank you, and I hope this means you're in good health and spirits!

[H. Zee]

Wow. The Oracle really is a Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).

And congrats, Giant. The last few comics have transcended mere brilliance and gone off somewhere into genius territory.

[warmachine]

I gotta admit, the kobolds standing around and looking bemused, instead of working, is a nice touch.

[Shatteredtower]

First, I laughed. Several times.

Then I thought: How the heck did a community that size, so close to the tower, go unnoticed before now?

Going back two strips answered that. I'd been picturing a lone tower on a plain in my head, but there's the forest on the left side of the first panel, bordered on at least one side by a rocky hill. Good to see that was covered.

Now, however, I'm just hoping this doesn't become yet another debilitating condition dragged out forever. I hung tough throughout Haley's speech impediment, especially since it gave those who liked solving her cryptograms a nice little bonus. Roy's absence is approaching 25% of the length of the series to date, and the addition of new roadblocks in the path of his return is starting to get wearing. Now we've got Belkar's curse triggered -- and Roy's still dead!

By all means, there's fun to be had in the halfling's suffering, but a 50-strip freshness limit would be appreciated for once. It kept Durkon's love life interesting, sprung Elan from jail in fairly short order, and unnewted V quickly enough to avoid any dragging. Ideally:

-- both Roy's resurrection and Belkar's curse are handled by the same source, and soon.

But I won't be surprised if instead:

--Belkar sees no need to keep Roy around now that he's cursed anyway, leading to yet more delays in reuniting the team.

Still a delightful strip, though. I hope the Oracle took into the account the fact that revenge is a dish--

--best made from a kobold's skull. And here's Belkar, within stabbing distance of place settings for a well attended banquet, even if currently in no shape to prepare them.

[Jinura]

Oh i was mad at Belkar when he killed him. I just began liking Shojo more :S

[gadren]

Wow, Rich.

You know sometimes you seem to think these things out more than I really give you credit for.

[WarDragon]

Oh my God, that was utterly sublime. Belkar finally learns that actions have consequences! I laughed so hard I choked when I saw that last panel!

[David Argall]

I love the fact that the kobold oracle didn't do anything to prevent his own demise, since again he obviously saw it coming.

Being the sweet charitable type I am, I will not make a list of those who insisted the oracle didn't see it coming and post it here [or who insisted it there could not possibly be a city here], because of my generous nature [and hope for blackmail payments.]

[QUOTE=JohnnyPsycho;4470554]
Still, I literally laughed out loud in triumph to see Belkar (who is still one of my favorite characters, even if he's a jerkass sociopath) get what was coming to him...

I had deemed the previous strip to be, well hardly bad, but definitely not a prime effort, but it did a good job of setting up this one, which should be a best of 5, and quite possibly best of 25.
Question: Does this qualify as revenge served cold? Kobolds are to be assumed to be cold-blooded.

[QUOTE=JohnnyPsycho;4470554]

Now, what are the chances the newly-dead oracle and the much-longer-dead Roy will exchange words now that they're both incorporeal spirits? My bet's that the oracle gets one "yo mama" joke in before he's taken to whatever after-life kobolds of his alignment go to.


I will still go with the Oracle having a cleric with Raise Dead on call. If he has the resources to create the village, he should have the resources to get that cleric. But he could give us a few hints about the future plot by talking with Roy. But there are a lot of other possibilities.
One of interest is the memory spell. If it is still working, they will leave the valley and then have no idea why Belkar is suddenly weak. That would give them reason to be generous and get him cured.




a Mark of Justice only duplicates the effect of a Bestow Curse spell,
Unless Rich has house-ruled that sucker for the purpose of tormenting Belkar, the Mark can't weaken him more than one of the above effects. That would be a rather dangerous handicap if he's up against a CR 13 monster--but those presumably mostly CR 1/4 kobolds are still going to be shredded without much trouble.

I'd bet Belkar got hit by the 7th? 8th? level version. Basic reason is that a merely weakened Belkar is not funny enough. A Belkar that is now a total wimp has considerable comic potential.

[Alysar]

Where exactly was it said that the MoJ is lethal? #295 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) Says that he'll just keep getting sicker until he can't hurt anyone.

[kierthos]

Apparently, the unspoken condition on the Mark of Justice was "Will only activate when it is funny."

I mean, it should have activated the second he killed the Oracle. Nope... it waited until it was funny.

[Lizard Lord]

Roy said Belkar would get sicker and sicker until he can not hurt anyone. My guess is that his str, con and dex, will keep dropping until they reach 1.


I now I am going to get crap from this, but I would not be surprised if Haley and Celia chose to just leave him there. Belkar brought it upon himself and really does not deserve to get out of his punishment. Even if the oracle was an evil creature that deserved death (which I honestly doubt he did anything much worse then be rude to customers) this is justice for all the other people he killed.

Though, if they did leave Belkar behind I can't imagine him getting out of it. If the kobolds don't kill him he is stuck getting sicker until he can't do anything. If the kobolds do kill him I doubt there would be anyone willing to go through a whole lot of trouble to bring him back.

Belkar said Durkon would, but even if that is true I doubt he could. He obviously doesn't have true resurrection or any other raise dead like spell that would not require a body. If he did he would have used it on Roy.

I also can't see why Haley and Celia would carry Belkar around if they had no intentions of making him better. Nor do I see why she would want to. I am fairly certain the only way to cure Belkar is to remove the curse mark entirely. If that were to happen though Belkar would just go back to killing random NPCs without anyone to control him.

[Astyanax]

So does that mean Belkar has a hand in killing Vaarsuvius? Belkar did manage to lead to the demise (from a certain point of view) of Roy, Miko, Miko's horse, and the Oracle...

[Porthos]

Where exactly was it said that the MoJ is lethal? #295 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) Says that he'll just keep getting sicker until he can't hurt anyone.

Don't forget tho, Belkar is living on borrowed time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)*

For all we know, he had a birthday in the three months flash forward. :smallwink:

* Before anyone comments, the Oracle correctly prophesied "a pair of family reunions", even though he was not in the trance at the time.

[Porthos]

Apparently, the unspoken condition on the Mark of Justice was "Will only activate when it is funny."

I mean, it should have activated the second he killed the Oracle. Nope... it waited until it was funny.

I think it observed W. E. Coyote's Law of Cartoon Inertia Karma. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) :smallwink:

"A person will only trigger a curse when it sees it has met the exact conditions of that curse, even if that character hasn't fully realized the implications of the situation it is in." :smallamused:

[hajo]

Belkar finally gets some Justice :smallbiggrin:

[Idless]

I totally saw the stabbing of the oracle coming

the founding of a city... not so much


Oh mark gods(pun intended), I look so much forward to the next comic!


oh and I feel bad for the Oracle, from when I saw it coming. And bad for Haley and Sylvia... but just one thing Belkar

HA... HAHAHA!

BTW, who expected that the MitD is a Grue?


...Karsil

[Drascin]

Usually I only chuckle, but this one had me laughing out loud for real. Smooth, little lizard, reeeally smooth :smallamused:.

[Shott]

The name of the city alone made this comic amazing.

[Wixit]

Heheheh. Enjoyable. Still rooting for the bastard though.

Assuming the Oracle has a cleric on hand, what makes you think Belkar will allow it to perform the ressurection? He can still do non-lethal damage, as he himself pointed out in the linked strip, and the spell takes a while to cast. If he sees the cleric he might decide to drag the corpse outside of town before allowing any ressurections to occur, thus allowing him to kill freely.

Then again, that may involve too much forethought for our favourite ranger.

[Ramien]

Is the memory charm still active on the valley? If it is, they're going to leave with no idea what happened or how Belkar activated the mark of justice...

[kukn]

It's been said, but still: brilliant!

Belkar is my favourite character, which is why I appreciate this turn of events all the more. A well deserved punishment, an interesting and unexpected plot twist. Wohoo! Seriously, quality story-telling.

Would love for the party to get back together soon though :/

[David Argall]

"No, seriously, give them a good once-over."

Do you suppose the Oracle meant something non-insulting here? He is an oracle, after all.

[paddyfool]

Ah, Oracle, I take my hat off to you, sir.

Now, if I were the oracle, the next strip would have:



(No seriously - I'm rarely right, but if I am, you don't want to read this now)


A kobold deputation knocking on the door. Among them, a cleric equipped to cast either raise dead or resurrect twice.

The deputation will demand the body of the oracle. Once they get it, the cleric will bring him back to life (being fated to die doesn't mean you have to stay dead). An offer will then be made to do the same for Roy, on condition that Haley hand over Belkar to serve due sentence according to kobold justice for murdering a servant of the dragon queen in cold blood ;-)

[Feefers]

That was just about the most clever thing I've ever seen. I totally forgot about the mark... then again, I didn't know they were in a city :)

Whilst I as much as anyone enjoy seeing Belkar suffer, I call shenanigans!

Whilst the curse was he can't deal lethal damage to any living creature within the bounds of any village, city or town; he's quite clearly not within the city boundary, he's not gone past the sign.

When he sliced and diced from the towers making sure to only kill those outside the walls he was unaffected (being outside the city limits) here you can see the village limits and well he's outside them.

Again whilst i'm all for seeing Belkar suffer, it does appear to be twisting and cheating a little more then usual.

[Morgan Wick]

Dun dun DUN!!!

What's LIKELY to happen: 569 will be Haley and Celia discussing what to do with Belkar. Haley by this point has decided even she's had enough with Belkar and they agree to leave him (who is convulsing, but most of it is just him acting) there. (In fact, Celia may need to talk Haley down from killing him, even if Haley makes the case that it's putting him out of his misery.) But both of them are too scatterbrained to even think about the memory charm, and Belkar's too stupid and in pain to figure it out - or realizes that the memory charm works in his favor. So in 570, they leave the valley, and immediately Haley decides she needs to get Belkar, but Celia protests that they should just leave him behind because she'd already been arguing that position, but Celia decides to come along anyway because they never asked anything. Once they return in 571 or 2, Belkar reminds them that he killed the Oracle and it activated the mark of justice because of the village, "and you numbnuts decided to just leave me here rather than help me."

I don't think that will happen in its entirety, because having another "let's not repeat the memory charm" joke would be too lame this soon.

So they may just leave without Belkar. But they could also see if there might just so happen to be some sort of cleric in the village capable of raising Roy, obviously probably without success.

But I suspect Belkar will remain significant for a while yet. It seems too early for any member of the OOTS to die permanently. Although he may well commit suicide at this point, hoping someone can raise him and that that will free him of the Mark of Justice.

If he does die, I really doubt he'll meet Roy, because he may be sent down to the Chaotic Evil afterlife too quickly.

The last panel of 329, incidentially, takes on a whole new meaning now. For those who think Rich doesn't plan these things out in advance.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Apparently, the unspoken condition on the Mark of Justice was "Will only activate when it is funny."

I mean, it should have activated the second he killed the Oracle. Nope... it waited until it was funny.
Wile E. Coyote logic appear to be standard operating procedure in this strip. Consider this classic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html


Whilst I as much as anyone enjoy seeing Belkar suffer, I call shenanigans!

Whilst the curse was he can't deal lethal damage to any living creature within the bounds of any village, city or town; he's quite clearly not within the city boundary, he's not gone past the sign.

When he sliced and diced from the towers making sure to only kill those outside the walls he was unaffected (being outside the city limits) here you can see the village limits and well he's outside them.
This assumes that the sign marks the village boundary. It's an obviously false assumption, since the sign is clearly among the huts and therefore well inside the village boundary.

[carebearbecky]

No indepth analysis of where this could be going.... suffice to say, I loved this. Sheer class.:smallbiggrin:

[battleburn]

City limits are arbitrary. I don't think the magic can define what those limits are. It must depend on the awareness of Belkar. So it is actually logical that the mark took some time to activate. If Belkar didn't see there was a village, the mark didn't know either.

[Totally Guy]

Maybe we'll get to find out Roy's command word now. I bet he's avoided saying it even in the afterlife. Maybe he'll try saying it to turn the effects off. It won't work though, it's too easy.

[Silmarwen]

holy **** holy **** holy **** holy **** holy **** holy **** holy **** holy **** !!!!!

HO-LY ****!!!

awesome!




PS: my vocabulary doesn't go very far, does it?

[Teron]

Awesome. Just bloody awesome.

[banjo1985]

Absolutely fantastic, best strip for quite some time!

I'm particularly interested in seeing how Belkar gets on now he's broken the terms of his symbol...unless the little bugger#s masochistic I can't see him enjoying it too much.

[Feefers]

This assumes that the sign marks the village boundary.

Is generally accepted practice for how zoning laws work, otherwise you get into disputes like this of where "your" town starts and finishes and what land you would be allowed to farm on and such like, besides...

0433 panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) shows him "outside" the city, or at least the walls of the city where as the city limits probably go on further.

I'm going more with battleburn's explanation or more likely Belkar actually feels slightly guilty for once.

...

...

Nah, that's just too crazy.

[JoseB]

Is generally accepted practice for how zoning laws work, otherwise you get into disputes like this of where "your" town starts and finishes and what land you would be allowed to farm on and such like, besides...

0433 panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) shows him "outside" the city, or at least the walls of the city where as the city limits probably go on further.

I'm going more with battleburn's explanation or more likely Belkar actually feels slightly guilty for once.

...

...

Nah, that's just too crazy.

Well, my take on this is that the sign is not there to mark where the village is, but to very loudly shout "PWNED!!!" at Belkar. I would say that the village goes on "for as long as there are buildings that are reasonably close to each other". The tower is a building reasonably close to the huts where the other kobolds are living, therefore is part of the village. Regarding Azure City, outside the walls of Azure City there were no other buildings visible (as far as I remember), therefore Azure City ended there.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[pendell]

And the crowd goes wild! It's doing the wave! That was indeed a crowning moment of awesome for the oracle!

Slightly vulgar, yes, but I think we can forgive the Oracle for being a little bit bitter about his untimely demise ...



I wonder if he has other contingency plans, such as a resurrection-ready cleric all ready to go?



And serves Belkar right! One steaming hot order of justice to go.

And it's a good thing he's with a party of do-gooders. In an evil party ..



Sorry, Belkar. With your -4 to all attack rolls you are no longer of use to us.

*STAB*




I award this strip 9.70 out of 10 possible points! Rich Burlew owns!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Is generally accepted practice for how zoning laws work,
Not everywhere. I've been to many places where such "Welcome" signs have been nowhere near a boundary.

[Delgarde]

Is generally accepted practice for how zoning laws work, otherwise you get into disputes like this of where "your" town starts and finishes and what land you would be allowed to farm on and such like, besides...

"Generally accepted practice" it may be, but it's clearly wrong here. This sign is placed where it is for exactly one reason - it's right where it needs to be for Belkar to see it when looking out the window of the Oracle's tower. Which by the look of it, is right in the center of the village.

Ah, I love that scaly little bastard. It takes a special character to make something like this work so beautifully... :)

[Jade Falcon]

Karma at work .. as much as I like Belkar I can´t say that he doesn´t deserve it

oh, and pwned :smalltongue:

[SirBel]

That was Hi-larious! I love Belkar!

[Mystery]

But, but ... kobolds don't have balls.

[warmachine]

I reckon the kobold villagers will next enter the same room as Belkar, point and laugh. Because kobolds aren't nice people and the Oracle certainly wasn't. Although it's unwise to antagonise an evil sociopath like Belkar, the villagers have been told about Belkar's curse and think Belkar can't afford to attack them and get any sicker. Then we see the D&D joke about how a cat like Mister Scruffy can kill CR1/4 commoners.

[FujinAkari]

Just to chime in, in my own city, I pass a sign saying "Welcome to Broken Arrow" every day on the way to work, despite living within city limits.

So no, the sign does NOT always (or even usually!) sit at the border. It generally sits at the edge of the civilized area, but not the edge of the area under the town's jurisdiction.

[JasonDoomsblade]

I laughed so hard at the town's name.

[whitemane]

That was freaking AWESOME! And it certainly answered any doubts about whether or not the MoJ was an illusion designed to fool Belkar into being on his best behavior...

[SteveMB]

"Generally accepted practice" it may be, but it's clearly wrong here. This sign is placed where it is for exactly one reason - it's right where it needs to be for Belkar to see it when looking out the window of the Oracle's tower. Which by the look of it, is right in the center of the village.

Ah, I love that scaly little bastard. It takes a special character to make something like this work so beautifully... :)

I figure that the village was set up so that the Oracle's tower was just within its boundaries, and most or all of the other buildings would be hidden behind the tower (from the POV of someone approaching via the safe path from the Test of the Memory Mind).

[Poukis]

Not only is the quality of the comics great, they keep coming! I'm sure that mr. Burlow can't continue this for a very long time but he's done a great job at filling the "gap" comics... If we could continue on a standard 3/week basis when this ueber-rate stops everything would be great! Once again thank you for your effort mr. Burlow!
Cheers!
PS. Great comic today! I literally gasped!

[jeffreyac]

Oh, nice!! The best part of this was the timing - I had completely forgotten about the mark, so I got the full comic-timing glory moment of "What the... The city name, i don't get it - Oh, the Mark of... the oracle, he... OH THAT'S FRICKEN AWESOME!!!!!"

anyway, yeah - neatly answers the question of if the oracle saw it coming... :)

EDIT: 15 minutes later, and I'm still chuckling.... 'No, seriously, give 'em a good once-over'...

[VForVaarsuvius]

As Belkar himself would say 'I take it back, that was awesome.'

Love the plot development and everything, keep it up!

[Craig1f]

Someone should have seen something like this coming.

Rich has been building Belkar up for the past few dozen issues. He's been on a constant rampage (moreso than usual) with Haley losing her mind over how to deal with it. Belkar would have reach a critical mass at some point. This is the only way to resolve the situation, short of him switching to the other side.

This is the best twist ever, because we should have seen it coming. The clues were there. And still no one predicted it.

[King of Nowhere]

That was great. I liked the oracle before, but now...
Placing a village here to trigger the mark was good, but the name, the date of fundation and the population...
I'm sorry he's dead, but I hope we see again something from him, like him having prepared some other things to mess with Belkar.
I think Rich's only purpose for having Belkar go on a killing spree (like on the gnome) was to have us wish for that. I mean, Belkar normally is quite adorable, he showed his more bastard nature so that there were no complainings for his punishment.
About the memory charm, probably the Oracle dismissed it; Belkar has to remember everything! Plus, for the inhabitants of the village, it would be quite a mess to forget everithing everytime they left home... And why I'm expecting the village to be full of Yikyik relatives?
If I weren't too lazy, I'd found an oracle's fanclub.
I'm also happy with the fast updates, in the last months we sticked to two a week. I hope this means that Rich is healty.

[Saint Nil]

That is the most awesome kobold ever, I must know include that town into one of my campaigns. I loved how he had his revenge. Also, nice work on the strip a day giant.

I wasn't sad when the oracle died, but that was too epic for this post to describe.

[Austran]

So... Roy is dead and Belkar is cursed. The next cleric they find will have a LOT of work...

Nicely played, Oracle.

[TigerHunter]

Do reptiles actually have balls?


...I cannot believe I just asked that.

[Kato]

Hehe... the oracle really got him ^^ In German there's a saying.. 'Aller gut Dinge sind drei', which roughly translates into 'third is best', though the third kobold B killed (and wanted to turn into something useful ^^') did not really serve him...
I still wonder... Was this all a mastermind plan of the oracle for geeting revenge for his fallen comrades? ^^' He probably has a cleric somewhere ready as well to raise him...
But will B wonder where the mark came from when the memory charm activates, or will it cease to work, I wonder? o.o

Also, I think it's great the last strips came so fast, thanks a lot, Mr. Burlew, I could have hardly waited long to get to know, what'd happen to B ^^

[The Gremlin]

All I can say is, it's about time.
I used to like Belkar. Even when he killed the gnome, he was among my favorite characters.
Then he killed the Oracle. It's about time he got his come-uppance. Now let his punishment be death! Death! Huzzah!

[The Gremlin]

Ah. I just read the name of the town. Now I understand. The Oracle knew that Belkar would kill him, and so he set up some payback by founding the town. That's why he said that he 'was not lucky' about the return customers.
Now it only makes sense for either a) the Mark of Justice to kill Belkar, b) The town to, or c) Tiamat's clerics to.

[Arles]

Really loved the Village's Name...

I laughed so much, jajajaja!


Great Comic, Great Plot, Great Turns...


Awesome, Giant. Just Awesome


Nos vemos

[docstrange]

Two points:

1) Belkar can't remove the curse effect by removing the village- i.e. by killing two kobolds to drop the population below "just enough"... can he?

2) Maybe with Belkar being too sick to hurt anyone, he can't pull a Gilligan and mess up V's next attempt at contact. After all, the party has to get back together someday... maybe in another 200 strips or so?

[David Argall]

It's about time he got his come-uppance. Now let his punishment be death! Death! Huzzah!

Belkar's punishment will be humiliation, not death. It may not even be for too long, in terms of strips anyway. The character is too useful to write out of the story at this point. So he is going to survive.
The rough pattern will be that Belkar will have some miserable times ahead, possibly including his beating beat up by a baby kobold, having to say yes sir to wimps, and in general being a wimp. He will be restored, likely about the time Roy is Raised, and will declare he is a reformed halfling, who won't be pushing people around after this. Within the same strip, he will be doing something violent and evil in direct violation of his promise.
Belkar is not a character who changes, at least permanently.



Do reptiles actually have balls?
Of course. Otherwise there would not be another generation of reptiles. Now what they normally "lack" are visible balls. Most keep them inside where they are safer. Presumably we mammals have them outside to let them cool off, a problem a cold-blooded critter doesn't have.



Now, if I were the oracle, the next strip would have:

A kobold deputation knocking on the door. Among them, a cleric equipped to cast either raise dead or resurrect twice.

The deputation will demand the body of the oracle. Once they get it, the cleric will bring him back to life (being fated to die doesn't mean you have to stay dead). An offer will then be made to do the same for Roy, on condition that Haley hand over Belkar to serve due sentence according to kobold justice for murdering a servant of the dragon queen in cold blood ;-)

Too easy and too complex. Belkar is going to suffer for a few strips, but he's going to be the same old Belkar eventually. So a quick solution is out, and so is one long enough to be deemed permanent.




What's LIKELY to happen: 569 will be Haley and Celia discussing what to do with Belkar. Haley by this point has decided even she's had enough with Belkar and they agree to leave him (who is convulsing, but most of it is just him acting) there. (In fact, Celia may need to talk Haley down from killing him, even if Haley makes the case that it's putting him out of his misery.) But both of them are too scatterbrained to even think about the memory charm, and Belkar's too stupid and in pain to figure it out - or realizes that the memory charm works in his favor. So in 570, they leave the valley, and immediately Haley decides she needs to get Belkar, but Celia protests that they should just leave him behind because she'd already been arguing that position, but Celia decides to come along anyway because they never asked anything. Once they return in 571 or 2, Belkar reminds them that he killed the Oracle and it activated the mark of justice because of the village, "and you numbnuts decided to just leave me here rather than help me."

I don't think that will happen in its entirety, because having another "let's not repeat the memory charm" joke would be too lame this soon.

So they may just leave without Belkar. But they could also see if there might just so happen to be some sort of cleric in the village capable of raising Roy, obviously probably without success.

The base idea is too complex, and not particularly funny. And it doesn't really fit Celia or Haley. Belkar is now helpless and needs protection. They can't just leave the murderous swine to die, can they? [Probably they should, but it violates the principles of Good the strip has been pushing and so after some hesitation, they will take him somewhere to be cured/punished.] Now the memory spell may keep them confused about what happened to Belkar. We will have to see about that.


The last panel of 329, incidentially, takes on a whole new meaning now. For those who think Rich doesn't plan these things out in advance.
We already know our writer plans a lot of things a long way in the future, but we also know a fair amount of those plans change, at least in degree. So assuming he had a tie between 329 & 568 is suspect.
But what meaning do you see in 329 that wasn't apparent before?

[happyturtle]

This comic made me so happy.

What I'd like to happen:
Haley stuffs Roy's body in the bag of holding and Celia picks her up and flies her to Cliffport, leaving Belkar behind to suffer his deeply deserved fate.

Seriously. I know there are a lot of Belkar fans in the audience, but I think the story won't suffer if there are a few less murder jokes. Why would Celia and Haley even try to get Belkar cured? Let him rot. Bring back Roy!

But that probably won't happen.

[hamishspence]

Kobold secondary sexual characteristics: the Giant has already made one joke about them in SoD:

"Now get out, I have a hot date with this kobold chick, and my oracular powers tell me I'm getting to second base tonight"
"Wait, if she's a reptile, how do you get to second base?"
"OUT!"

and no it wasn't a poke at 4th ed dragonborn, since SoD predates Races and Classes considerably

[SteveMB]

This comic made me so happy.

What I'd like to happen:
Haley stuffs Roy's body in the bag of holding and Celia picks her up and flies her to Cliffport, leaving Belkar behind to suffer his deeply deserved fate.

Seriously. I know there are a lot of Belkar fans in the audience, but I think the story won't suffer if there are a few less murder jokes. Why would Celia and Haley even try to get Belkar cured? Let him rot. Bring back Roy!

But that probably won't happen.

If nothing else, there's no longer any reason not to carry Roy's body in the Bag of Holding.

As for Belkar, yeah, he's sort of the acid test of the Leave No Teammate Behind doctrine.

[Lunaya]

I'm personally ready to see some Belkar/Mr. Scruffy bonding. They say cats can be very perceptive of when their caretaker isn't feeling well. Oh, the cuteness! :smallbiggrin:

[Holammer]

I can't wait to see how the mark of justice will works it's magic on Belkar, a path to redemption or lots of cheap laughs on his expensive... *aaaaaah*

"Belkar isn't Chaotic Evil" crowd would love it I'm sure.

[AceOfFools]

I sing your praises, Giant.

I sing your praises.

[Wanderer]

MWA HA HA HA HA!!:smalltongue:

The above line represents my actual out-loud response to reading this comic, word for word.

Totally serves him right. Belker has been getting even more out of control lately than ever.

[Tobrian]

Yes, yes, YES! Revenge is sweet.

I totally called this yesterday, although admittedly I didnt' expect the kobold village; I assumed the temple of the oracle (and adjacent buildings for the oracle's various servants) might itself qualify as a settlement.


Well, now that Belkster's activated the MoJ once, will it stay on him?:smallamused:

If not, and he realizes this, then there's a kobold-head hut to be made.
If not, and he doesn't realize it, then he's going to continue avoiding towns and such until someone tells him it's not there anymore.

If it does stay, and he doesn't think so, then he'll be in a lot of pain when he tries to get his revenge on the town of Lick-ling.
If it stays and he knows it, then he'll continue in the same fear of it as before (unless, of course, he finds out that it's some homebrewed curse that was simply put there to make him live in fear of Roy and the Sapphire Guard's wrath...)

I can't quite follow your logic here.
Belkar definitely knows that the Mark has been activated. He is screaming in pain.

A Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) is permanent in that the symbol is permanent (unless removed iwth Break Enchantment or similar), and once it has activated, the curse it places on the victim is permanent also (unless dispelled).
From the spell description, a normal MoJ only activates once... it doesnt zap a murderer everytime he murders yet another person. So yes, Belkar could now technically go on a killing spree because he's already cursed.
Somehow though I doubt Belkar can take on hundreds of angry kobolds, especially while he suffers from a curse.
A standard MoJ only places the effect of a Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) spell on the criminal... -6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) or -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks is pretty heavy, but it happens only once. But the clerics of Azure City seem to have gone with the "invent your own curse" option, as Roy mentioned in OotS #295 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) that once the curse is activated, Belkar "will get sicker and sicker until he'll be incapable of hurting anyone", which sounds more like a Lesser Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm) or Geas/Quest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm) spell of some sort in that the criminal takes cumulative penalties or damage every day. (Unfortunately Lesser Geas is not a divine spell, unless there's some non-core cleric domain that has it as part of its list.)

The big question now is, even if Belkar makes it out of the Valley alive, will Haley drag his cursed ass around on the wagon, or will she leave him behind once he's too weak to walk or to fight? Sure, it would be cruel on her part, on the other hand, Haley's alignment is neither lawful nor good (according to Origin of the PCs), so she's not particularly expected to save the life of a mass-murdering little psycho like Belkar. Hell, he already had his court sentence, and he violated the terms of his release, so now he gets his punishment.

[B.I.T.T.]

Well it sure looks like Belkar has put his hairy foot in it this time. Whether he gets out of this mess, and how he gets out of this will definitely depend on the actions of those around him.

It could very well be that Belkar will die in the village of Lick*************Halfling, or it could be that he comes through it, with or without the help of his friends.

[dragongirl13]

Oooh. Karma strikes again. And the Oracle gets one last joke... I wonder what the Mark is going to do to Belkar?

[Zak3056]

Anyone else see the next step in this chain as "Lord Hinjo, the halfling's mark of justice has been activated!" ?

[JaxGaret]

Simply outstanding.

I know this is going to be buried in the thread, but I had to give this strip its due. Gods bless you, Rich Burlew.

[Mr. Scaly]

I haven't been so happy since Xykon single handedly wiped out the Sapphire Guard. That little cretin had it coming. :smallbiggrin:

[Steven the Lich]

:smalltongue:Belkar... is... screwed
That much is known.
Man, that kobold is evil. Well... was evil, anyway.:smallamused:
Nicely done Richard Burlew, one of the greatest ironies I've seen out of this comic.

[Roupe]

Just enough would cover question 1, and covers all the bases.

Reminds me of a old D&D discussion on how many lvl 1 kobolds it would take to kill a lvl 20.

[shylocxs]

WOW! It IS a real Mark of Justice!

[gobogen]

Awesome comic, definitely among the top one's from oots.

[Grod_The_Giant]

:smalleek:...oh god, that's awful...my aching sides:smallbiggrin:! "Welcome to the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling"...that's HILARIOUS!

[stsasser]

Do reptiles actually have balls?

That one sure did.

[Logalmier]

Yes! I fell like Belkar totally got that coming to him, although it will be interesting to see how the mark affects him, because in D&D, a MoJ isn't' that much of a threat once you hit somewhere around 11-13 level, maybe Rich is using a more powerful one? Or it's an empowered mark that does CON damage? Either way, it seems to be putting him in a world of hurt.

It's also nice to see the oracle get the last laugh on him.:smallamused:

[Martok]

That bloody kobold was obnoxious as hell, but I have to admit he definitely got the last laugh! And while Belkar is my favorite OOTS member after Roy, I can't deny that he certainly had this coming to him. :smallamused:


Truly, this was one of the most badass comic strips anywhere, ever. Well done, Giant; *very* well done! :smallcool:

[Niesra]

It may sound redundant, but who cares. THAT WAS AWESOME. Just one of the BEST updates i've ever seen. I think most people were at least considering the idea of belkar killing the oracle (i mean COME ON, the really indirect way belkar causes the death of roy was hilarious -even more when he mentiones miko and the horse, man that was great) but i really didn't see the posthumous revenge comig, and it was simply the best thing ever. Truly one of the single greatest moments in this comic i believe. Nonetheless, belkar is still my favourite charachter, and i want him to survive this somehow. But he was definately long overdue for an owenage like this.

Welcome to the village of "lick.my.orange.balls.halfling"...PRICELESS, really.

[Blaznak]

Ok, this was just TOO funny. I keep wondering "when oh when will OOTS just not be able to keep progressing. Rich CAN'T keep coming up with great stuff, can he?" Apparently, he can! Great stuff!

Later!!!

[David Argall]

The big question now is, even if Belkar makes it out of the Valley alive, will Haley drag his cursed ass around on the wagon, or will she leave him behind once he's too weak to walk or to fight? Sure, it would be cruel on her part, on the other hand, Haley's alignment is neither lawful nor good (according to Origin of the PCs),
I am unaware of anything in Origin that says Haley's alignment is other than CG. However strip #11 shows everyone in the party except for Belkar was some variety of Good. Nor do we have grounds for thinking she has changed since.


so she's not particularly expected to save the life of a mass-murdering little psycho like Belkar.
She has already shown a willingness to save him from Miko, and probably will be more willing to now.


Hell, he already had his court sentence, and he violated the terms of his release, so now he gets his punishment.
Strictly speaking, he hasn't violated the terms of release. He was under them until his trial. At the trial, they become null and void. At the trial, he got 6 years - 5 jail time if he fought in the battle. What he has done here is activate the curse, which is no longer connected to his terms of release.

[5tephen]

Hard Ball.

That ROCKED.

[FMArthur]

I have never laughed this hard at an OotS comic, and it's already my favourite comic.


On Belkar: Belkar represents the kind of player that I really hate playing D&D with. I don't think Mr Burlew would do it, but I wouldn't mind if Belkar died and didn't come back. His only joke is getting old, and he's not important to the rest of the characters or the story. Mr Scruffy would be a better party member than Belkar is.

[Alex Warlorn]

A good running gag would be if the Oracle sunk all his money into plans to mess with Belkar for the rest of his life.

Depends on how long he knew. He knew since Belkar asked him that question at least.

But I'd say if nature takes it course, Belkar gonna be in line to be the S&M toy for some demons very soon.

And I don't think any of them know the command words to turn it =OFF!=

Oh and YES! YES YES YES! Belkar finally gets a lesson in self control! He's either gonna learn when NOT to kill things or die learning it!

I know it's wrong to enjoy someone else's suffering, but it feels like balance has been restored, (something else I normally don't believe in, but I'll make an exception in this case!).

[see]

I'm personally ready to see some Belkar/Mr. Scruffy bonding. They say cats can be very perceptive of when their caretaker isn't feeling well. Oh, the cuteness! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, cats can tell when their owners aren't feeling well. That's when they come in for the kill.

[Danin]

I usually just lurk the forums or hang in the D20 area but I made a special trip over here for this.

Rich, I was having a pretty rough night and this comic managed to put a smile on my face, even forced a laugh when I went back and read the sign through again. Thanks, the comic was great as always. Go take a break, with all the recent updates you deserve it.

[Animefunkmaster]

This was very awesome.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Rock on Oracle, Rock on!!!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Alex Warlorn]

Now THAT is how you use destiny. You don't try to force it off course, you RIDE it. And it just RODE right over Belkar! Ha ha!

[Paragon Badger]

I believe we've gotten our second hint that the Giant is a fan of South Park.

Before the town's name, the first hint was "Look more closelier."

Not very important, but something I've noticed. :smalltongue:

[Sebastian]

The oracle is now my favorite character, even if posthumously. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

I am unaware of anything in Origin that says Haley's alignment is other than LG.

Haley is Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good--she said so in an online strip.

[puzpuz]

That, was one of the best strips ever!

It was so cool! It left me with an open mouth for a whole minute!

Man, that Rich Burlew is even better than I thought!

Edit: You guys seem to be happy of Belkar's death, or whatever is going to happen to him. Why? :smallconfused:

I mean, I like B ad I think he's one of the funniest character in the comic.

[Eric]

Otherwise there would not be another generation of reptiles. Now what they normally "lack" are visible balls. Most keep them inside where they are safer.

But if they are internal, the only way Belkar can lick them is if he eviscerates the Kobold....

The MoJ may well show why other people matter to Belkar: he now requires other people to help him. People who have no pressing need to help.

*Roy* would help.

Celia should help (from alignment) but I suspect she'll be taking the longer view.

[MrPhoenix]

it's the first time i taste destilled awesomeness.
it tastes great...

[Milcho]

I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.

His foretellings were shady and are very easy to interpret as whatever one wanted, and somehow, I feel better thinking he couldn't have helped them at all. After all, what good is a prediction that you know will come true only after it comes true.

This was not written to annoy anyone, it really is what I think.

[Balgus]

Dont know if this has been said... 6 pages is too much to read for an idea:

Belkar will be the happiest Halfling so far. You have him getting sicker and sicker until he is unable to kill anymore. That just means that he will kill and kill until he gets killed. He will die a happy halfling... in the throws of battle...

[Lunaya]

I seem to remember an early comic (the storyline where Elan got captured by a bandit group), when most of the Order got sent to the gallows. When it looked likely that Belkar had been killed, both Elan and Haley freaked.

Things may well have changed since then, but I can't help but think that Haley, on some deep level, still cares about Belkar's welfare, at least enough that she doesn't want him to die. They may not be best buddies, but I just can't see her leaving him to suffer.

[Paragon Badger]

I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.

His foretellings were shady and are very easy to interpret as whatever one wanted, and somehow, I feel better thinking he couldn't have helped them at all. After all, what good is a prediction that you know will come true only after it comes true.

This was not written to annoy anyone, it really is what I think.

He probably could forsee the future, but just chose to be vague and mysterious with it. Fits his whole antisocial personality, I think..

[Red XIV]

Haley's alignment is neither lawful nor good
Haley is not Lawful, but she did specifically refer to herself a while back as "Chaotic Good-ish" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html). It's not immediately obvious since her speech is scrambled when she says it, but we have translations available.



I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.

His foretellings were shady and are very easy to interpret as whatever one wanted, and somehow, I feel better thinking he couldn't have helped them at all. After all, what good is a prediction that you know will come true only after it comes true.

This was not written to annoy anyone, it really is what I think.
This very strip flatly contradicts that idea. The Oracle knew not only that Belkar would kill him but exactly (or close to it) when it would happen, thus his ability to set up an elaborate posthumous revenge. Not to mention, both that revenge and several of the things he said in the previous one require him to have extensive knowledge of things that he couldn't possibly know if his powers weren't legit.

[Porthos]

I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.

His foretellings were shady and are very easy to interpret as whatever one wanted, and somehow, I feel better thinking he couldn't have helped them at all. After all, what good is a prediction that you know will come true only after it comes true.

This was not written to annoy anyone, it really is what I think.

No, he definitely could predict the future.

".... the two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) is pretty darn specific if you ask me. :smallwink:

[Ceaon]

It's odd that Belkar can do one evil thing after another, up to the point you seriously start feeling antipathy towards the character - and then he screams in the last panel and I go "Oh no, poor lil' halfling!"

Very odd indeed. Is that the Giant's writing talent or is it just that I feel sympathy too soon? :smallwink:

[Kish]

I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.

His foretellings were shady and are very easy to interpret as whatever one wanted, and somehow, I feel better thinking he couldn't have helped them at all. After all, what good is a prediction that you know will come true only after it comes true.

This was not written to annoy anyone, it really is what I think.
SoD spoiler.
The only reason Eugene ever knew Xykon's name was because the Oracle told him the name of the sorcerer who had killed Fyron was "Xykon."

And really. All just one big coincidence that he somehow knew Belkar would kill him, somehow knew about the Mark of Justice...somehow knew that Xykon was going to Azure City next? Even without the spoiler that would be a huge stretch.

[RebelRogue]

It's odd that Belkar can do one evil thing after another, up to the point you seriously start feeling antipathy towards the character - and then he screams in the last panel and I go "Oh no, poor lil' halfling!"

Very odd indeed. Is that the Giant's writing talent or is it just that I feel sympathy too soon? :smallwink:
Nah, it's just a racial feature :smallbiggrin:

[Eric]

Depends on how long he knew. He knew since Belkar asked him that question at least.

But I'd say if nature takes it course, Belkar gonna be in line to be the S&M toy for some demons very soon.

However, there's a problem with Oracular events. Where's the blame? Surely if the end result is pre-ordained, then there is no free will and no responsibility (here is one case where I will agree with the "Belkar's CN 'cos I like him" crowd). Heck, if Belkar HADN'T done it, then he would have proven the Oracle wrong. Given this would cause the Oracle to lose his only means of trade, he has a vested interest in making sure Belkar operates as required. Remember, Death isn't the end of it in D&D.

And look at the faces of the rest of the group as the Oracle makes crud up. THEY are mightily pissed off. Belkar doesn't have middle gears, so instead of just being angry, Belkar stabs. But the Oracle's weasel wording annoyed EVERYONE.

To some extent, the Oracle did bring this upon himself. (see, for example, the ending of "The Prestige": deliberately letting yourself die so that someone else will hang for it).

So a much lower burden of guilt for this compared to the Gnome.

[Eric]

Haley is Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good--she said so in an online strip.

He never said there wasn't proof, just that he was unaware from it.

[Kgw]

You cannot outrun, outsmart or hide from prophecies... you just can play with it. And the Oracle was a great player.

Hats off to the Giant!

[rosebud]

I know people think the Oracle is awesome, but I choose to believe that he, infact, can't really predict stuff, and it was all just one big coincidence.He definitely has access to the story since he know what has happened and has an idea of what will happen.

Yes, Oracles, like horoscopes, have a tendency for the vague. When pressed, he also gave specifics. And the comment about V makes it clear enough that something might happen to hir (by virtue of, say, Belkar delaying them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) by just enough to not make the ship).


Dont know if this has been said... 6 pages is too much to read for an idea. Belkar will be the happiest Halfling so far.Not that you'll read this reply, but it hasn't. :smallbiggrin:


then he screams in the last panel and I go "Oh no, poor lil' halfling!"Belkar is chaotic evil, but in a comic or cartoon way, and he is a bit child-like or at least naive way? (Half of us probably both liked the oracle and our other half wanted to stab him for being so obnoxious. So, while our good half would keep us from stabbing him, our annoyed half would appreciate Belkar's actions. And while both our good and evil halves would like seeing Belkar punished, our good half would also feel pity. :smallsmile:) So, yes, the writing is delightful, and, no you don't feel sympathy too soon. And your other half probably kicked in and laughed at the comedy of it all. :smallbiggrin:

[Roderick_BR]

"Founded: Last week. Population: Just enough"
Damn, now THIS is a plot twist or what? I hope Belkar had enjoyed his last cake... :smallbiggrin:

Well played, Giant, well played.

[Azrooh]

Well.. Belkar finally paid for his actions, and will die. Good thing. Good plot twist!

I can't say I am surprised about the quality of the plot twist. That is a Giant-grade writing, and I love it. Good work Rich, I love it!

Oh, Belkar won't die. It'll be WORSE.

He'll get weaker and weaker until he can't stab anyone. His worst nightmare. But he'll live.
I'm guessing until Roy stops the curse. Looks like Haley and Celia will be the only ones now... They just gotta' pull Belkar in the cart too.

[King of Nowhere]

By the way, next time I play Civilization, I'm gonna name a city like this.

[Shatteredtower]

However, there's a problem with Oracular events. Where's the blame? Surely if the end result is pre-ordained, then there is no free will and no responsibility (here is one case where I will agree with the "Belkar's CN 'cos I like him" crowd).They're literary characters. Everything about what they'll do is preordained. A lot of what the Oracle knew came from fourth wall breaking abilities, making him aware of most of what we'd read to that date.

It doesn't seem to be, however, at least not within the strip. The Oracle was taken aback by Roy's last question to him, for example, and even tried to persuade him to rethink it. Choice still seems to be relevant, even if the general pattern of things to come can be foretold in some cases. As the Oracle has shown in this most recent strip, you always have a choice in how you meet the inevitable, which is where personal responsibility still comes in to things.

[mlsq42]

http://toons.artie.com/toons/hands_clapping/arg-hands-clap-fas-bluebg.gif X An Opera House.

[Pequod]

Rich, Rich, Rich

I almost never post as evidence by my Pixie status but sometimes you really go above and beyond. The village of 'Lickmyorangeballshalfling' :smallbiggrin:
beautiful, brilliant, exquisite comedy. The list of superlitives fail me.

This is possibly the best gag I have ever read in this comic. The only other that is close is 'evilgasim'

I check your comic daily when I sit down at my office, thanks for the belley laugh this morning, although I will need a new keyboard now since my coffee is all over mine, thanks bro

[Vikenlugaid]

LICKMYORENGABALLSHALFLING

LOL :smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

They're literary characters. Everything about what they'll do is preordained. A lot of what the Oracle knew came from fourth wall breaking abilities, making him aware of most of what we'd read to that date.

It doesn't seem to be, however, at least not within the strip. The Oracle was taken aback by Roy's last question to him, for example, and even tried to persuade him to rethink it. Choice still seems to be relevant, even if the general pattern of things to come can be foretold in some cases. As the Oracle has shown in this most recent strip, you always have a choice in how you meet the inevitable, which is where personal responsibility still comes in to things.

Actually I think this proves exactly the opposite. The oracle knew that belkar was going to eventually kill him when he did the prediction for him a few minutes earlier...

SO when Roy asked his question, instead of gleefully sending him off to the wrong spot, he tried to change his destiny by sending the oots to the right spot instead. BUT nothing he could say could change his destiny once ordained and hence nothing he could say could convince Roy to change his question.

That is a major problem with prophecies that are real and always come true. Having the prophecy removes options -- it doesnt give options.

[DigoDragon]

A nice little moment of revenge for the oracle, but I notice quite a number of readers not minding to see Belkar die for his actions. I wonder if this jinxes it so that Belkar ends up surprising everyone and saving the world at the end? :smallsmile:

Hey, you never know... well, the Giant does, but besides him.

[Random314]

“Population: Just Enough”

Best three words in the strip. I just really love this line. It elegantly brushes aside the “what makes a city” argument, implies the extra thought that the oracle put into his little surprise, and adds that little dash of rhetorical whimsy.

[The Gremlin]

I am unaware of anything in Origin that says Haley's alignment is other than LG. However strip #11 shows everyone in the party except for Belkar was some variety of Good. Nor do we have grounds for thinking she has changed since.
Not so. 'Unholy Blight' affects Neutral folk too. As near as I can tell, Haley is Chaotic Neutral/Good, V is Lawful Neutral/Good (perhaps just Neutral), Belkar is Chaotic Evil, or possibly (though I doubt it)Chaotic Neutral, and Durkon and Roy are Lawful Good.

[Lunaya]

Plot-wise, I would definitely say that Belkar was long overdue for his comeuppance. I've noticed his popularity waning, especially after he killed that gnome NPC and I know a lot of people are appeased by the thought of the "horrid little b******" getting his.

Speaking for myself though, I have a nasty habit of feeling empathy for any character who suffers, whether he deserves it or not. And so, fair warning, I am likely to be highly sympathetic of Belkar until he's feeling better. Damn my nurturing nature. I do apologize. :smallamused:

[sihnfahl]

And I don't think any of them know the command words to turn it =OFF!=
Why would there be a command word to turn it off? It was something intended to keep Belkar under control; if Belkar triggered the mark by killing someone in town despite Roy's admonitions NOT to, then Roy was losing control of Belkar anyway and would become a liability to Roy's quest.

Toss the little bugger over his shoulder, ship him back to AC's jail and be grateful Belkar can't impede the quest anymore.

The right words to turn it off? "Break enchantment." Presumably initially intended to be cast by the same cleric who put the Mark on him in the first place - after, of course, Belkar finished his term in jail for the murders....

Now they just have to find a friendly cleric and Bluff him...


Oh and YES! YES YES YES! Belkar finally gets a lesson in self control! He's either gonna learn when NOT to kill things or die learning it!
He won't be able to kill things anymore; not until someone gets that curse off him. He won't have the STR to. It'd be a fun Bluff check for Haley...

"Well, he had the Mark of Justice put on him so he could accompany us on our quest to stop a lich. Otherwise, he would have been stuck in jail awaiting trial for the murder of some guards. It triggered when he killed a Kobold Oracle, who we went to to figure out how to resurrect our lawful good leader...."

[Wolfram]

He should have named the town Llickmyorangeballshalfling. Then we can say it's Welsh. :smallbiggrin:

[Hiraghm]

:smallfrown:

I'm not happy with this one.

Why is it my heroes always have to be crapped on while everyone cheers?

Why is it the people I can't stand (or at least don't exactly like) are made to succeed and be universally acclaimed (Therkla comes to mind...)?

It's like I'm living in one of those commercials where the husband/father is always a boob and mom/kid/neighbor is always making a fool of him, no matter how honest, industrious or intelligent he tries to be.

I live in a world where an ogre gets the girl (shrek), witches are the good guys (charmed), pirates are the victims (pirates of the caribbean: world's end). Talk about a world turned upside-down.

I've loved OotS since the beginning, but now I have to ask:

Get the mark off of Belkar;
Let him slaughter the Kobolds mercilessly;
Get Roy's butt resurrected;
Reunite the OotS;
Get on with fighting the bad guy (remember him?)

Kobolds = bad;
Xykon = bad;
OotS = good;
Belkar = hero (for putting up with being the punching bag for every scumbag and know-it-all in the story)
everyone abusing Belkar = PC run amok

I can see how this would be really funny... if it weren't once again the target-of-the-day (to make a Star Trek reference) that was the victim.

:smallfrown:

[Ampersand]

A nice little moment of revenge for the oracle, but I notice quite a number of readers not minding to see Belkar die for his actions. I wonder if this jinxes it so that Belkar ends up surprising everyone and saving the world at the end? :smallsmile:

Unfortunately, you're probably right.

But still, it's nice to see Belkar finally get some comeuppance, and I plan to enjoy his suffering right up until the point where it's inevitably lifted, despite the fact that it makes absolutely no sense for any character in the strip to want to do so.

[The Gremlin]

Belkar = hero (for putting up with being the punching bag for every scumbag and know-it-all in the story)
everyone abusing Belkar = PC run amok

Perhaps you don't understand the storyline. Belkar is evil. He only does 'good deeds' because he is a sick, bloodthirsty pervert. Calling him a 'hero' can be nothing but an enormous joke. Any decent DM would not allow him as a character, but as a villain. He isn't even an antihero. He is evil. Nothing will ever change that.:smallmad:

[Yendor]

Perhaps you don't understand the storyline. Belkar is evil. He only does 'good deeds' because he is a sick, bloodthirsty pervert. Calling him a 'hero' can be nothing but an enormous joke. Any decent DM would not allow him as a character, but as a villain. He isn't even an antihero. He is evil. Nothing will ever change that.:smallmad:

He doesn't even commit "good deeds". He commits evil deeds that just happen to advance the cause of good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). He brutally murdered Grand Larceny Guy instead of letting him kill Hinjo, only because keeping Hinjo alive would (in theory) allow Belkar to lose the Mark of Justice so that he could murder innocents again. He has now actively impeded the heroes' efforts by killing the Oracle, and for once is facing the consequences of his actions. It is, to quote Elan, karmariffic.

[The Gremlin]

Unfortunately, you're probably right.

But still, it's nice to see Belkar finally get some comeuppance, and I plan to enjoy his suffering right up until the point where it's inevitably lifted, despite the fact that it makes absolutely no sense for any character in the strip to want to do so.

Hear hear!

[David Argall]

'Unholy Blight' affects Neutral folk too. As near as I can tell, Haley is Chaotic Neutral/Good, V is Lawful Neutral/Good (perhaps just Neutral), Belkar is Chaotic Evil, or possibly (though I doubt it)Chaotic Neutral, and Durkon and Roy are Lawful Good.

Unholy Blight hurts Neutrals. It sickens & hurts Goods. The entire non-Belkar part of the party was shown as sickened. So all were good, and Belkar was shown to be evil since the spell didn't bother him at all.

[The Sandman]

The Oracle is dead.

He's no longer here.

But on Belkar's head, and in his backyard, he snarks on! Triggering a curse to pierce the brain, even from within the grave!

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK HE IS?! :smallcool:

[tamashii]

I really liked how this all played out, but I can't really help but think that the Oracle ultimately committed suicide here.

Look, he wasn't buying the theories of his answer to Belkar either. He says so in his last breath. Meaning, that when Belkar asked the question, he likely only saw his death directly caused by Belkar. While Belkar's dagger is the cause of allowing the Oracle to know what a pin cushion feels like, what caused Belkar to insert said pin into said cushion? Why, the Oracle being an obnoxious, vague smart-ass.

If I knew some diminutive, stab-happy character was going to shiv me in the tummy, I'd try my best to prevent that; hence the "theories" introduced to satiate my would-be killer. With the details he gave for the other deaths, however, wouldn't he know that the cause for Belkar killing him was because of Belkar's own frustration? Why perpetuate being the jerk? Unless, no matter how many times he thought about it, Belkar would wind up sticking him anyway –*then he is just an ass for setting up the village to exact revenge for the results of his own actions.

Elsewhere: Regardless of what happens next, Belkar will NOT die. Before Belkar tells him to "shut up," the Oracle let's slip "And as for the elf—" which would imply that Belkar has something to do with V in the future; as V is very much alive and .... uhm .... what happens to a spellcaster, that puts a lot of work and effort into a spell of the caliber V casts on those birds, and the spell is summarily shot, de-feathered and grilled? Anything? For the sake of argument, let's say nothing would happen. So V is alive and sorta well, meaning Belkar will do something that involves V later down the road.

This is why I don't post often in this forum.

[Dunesen]

First a quickie: I've read through several pages of comments, but I don't recall if someone pointed out that perhaps Belkar isn't actually yelling in pain, but just in anger that the Oracle got him even in death.

Now to the meat:

I've read countless tidbits of advice on writing (that being my dream profession) and one I actually give credit to is "When you get to the third act, ask yourself 'What's the worse thing that could happen now?'"

OotS isn't following a single arc, per se, it's more in line with the standard on-going comic book in this regard. But even in an epic story it's good to occasionally ask that question, how much can things go wrong?

I loved strip 567 because not only was Belkar's actions legitimately established (ie., we all understand how things arrived at that point), but the added effect was now that the trio had come back to square one without anything to show for it. While countless stories will reach a thinly veiled Deus ex Machina (and OotS has not been an exception, let us be honest with ourselves), this is a point where the DeM is actually eliminated rather than used. After making the trip to the Oracle and passing all three tests, it is all for naught.

Taking 567 by itself, the heroes suffer yet another setback (on top of everything else since the Battle of Azure City). No wisdom gained, no new course charted, but one more provider of key information is gone (if only classified as "potential provider").

That is why I enjoyed 567 so much, because Mr. Burlew did the unexpected in a way that tips the scales against the heroes, or in this case at least keeps them from moving forward.

But then I read 568, and it made things worse. He didn't just stop for a strip and have the characters discuss what to do next, but he added to their problem by effectively removing Belkar from the team. Right away.

Quibble as we may about what the actual effects of the MoJ will be (we'll find out in due time), at the very least it will severely hinder Belkar's abilities in any actual fight, and most likely will leave him fully incapacitated.

First they lose a (whatever you may argue) efficient and irreplacable source of information, but now yet another member of the team is out of the picture, leaving a PC and an NPC leading a cart through the countryside in the hopes of finding another means of contacting the shipbound half of the team.

That 1-2 punch by itself illustrates why I love this strip more than any other webcomic, irregular updating be damned. But the humor of 568, if only the welcoming sign, is what makes it a keeper. It is hilarious, not just that the Oracle would make such a gratuitous F-U gesture, but the little details of the 'Pop: Just enough' and the town's actual name...

I hate it when people go for either the most obvious joke or they come up with a single joke and let it rest (at the risk of being attacked: this is why I don't like Penny Arcade).

It's always the little touches that make things worth watching or reading multiple times. And I just had to write this post, I was that impressed by the last two strips.

Another quickie: I really hope Mr. Burlew doesn't pass on having Roy yell the safety word to no avail. (and that sounds dirty taken out of context) It's an easy joke, but his frustration will still be funny.

[Morty]

Unfortunately, you're probably right.

But still, it's nice to see Belkar finally get some comeuppance, and I plan to enjoy his suffering right up until the point where it's inevitably lifted, despite the fact that it makes absolutely no sense for any character in the strip to want to do so.

Yeah, no sense at all... unless Haley decides she needs a 14th level warrior even if he is a bloodthirsty maniac. Or Belkar gets his curse lifted by someone else, possibly even someone we haven't seen in the comic so far, who has his/her own reasons to do so. Or he might not get his curse lifted at all.
Apart from making up stuff to complain about, I'm genuinly curious as to what will become of the kobold village with such a beautiful name.

[Ardolich45]

My reading of the comic went like this.

:smalleek:
:smallconfused:
:smallbiggrin:
:smallsmile:
:smallconfused:
:smalleek:

Does this...does this mean....that Belkar will...will....*drops to knees*...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Stormthorn]

"Why is it my heroes always have to be crapped on while everyone cheers?"

The quote button graphics wouldnt load, so i didnt know which one it was.

Um...because your heroes are evil? Im guessing here.


Anyways, this all proves that when you are the first to know whats going to happen you really do get to be the last one laughing.

[brilliantlight]

I really like this one! Belkar finally gets what he deserves. :cool: Belkar has a very limited lifespan so this could be the start of his spiral to his death. It won't kill him directly but he will soon be unable to defend himself well. He may be rezzed afterwords at the same time as Roy. I would like to see the Oracle rezzed as well he is just too cool to lose.

[Kish]

I've loved OotS since the beginning, but now I have to ask:

Get the mark off of Belkar;
Let him slaughter the Kobolds mercilessly;
Get Roy's butt resurrected;
Reunite the OotS;
Get on with fighting the bad guy (remember him?)

If you've really loved OotS since the beginning, why do you suddenly want to dictate the plot to the author and to make it a lot more simplistic?



Kobolds = bad;
Xykon = bad;
OotS = good;
Belkar = hero (for putting up with being the punching bag for every scumbag and know-it-all in the story)
everyone abusing Belkar = PC run amok

Make up your mind. Is everyone in the OotS good, even the one we're very clearly told is Chaotic Evil? Or is each member of the Order who has ever "abused" Belkar bad?

[reignofevil]

Toss the little bugger over his shoulder, ship him back to AC's jail and be grateful Belkar can't impede the quest anymore.
He would be out in a week, maybe less, of course that doesnt take into account that AC is now run by :xykon: at which point he wouldnt even go to jail, he would join the bad guys.

[Sequinox]

Belkar gets his just desserts. (See my sig)

[FoE]

Why is it my heroes always have to be crapped on while everyone cheers? :smallfrown:

Because the universe hates you. The rest of us didn't tell you because we didn't want to spoil the surprise.

[Partywhipple]

LMAO This comic is so made of win. I hardly ever post but my extreme love of OOTS has compelled me to do so. Not only is it great comedy but it has a really nice underlying sory arc which has really hooked me. Add in regular updates to keep from going insane with anticipation and I am completely hooked. Heck, I even bought all the books. Not many web comics can inspire that from me:smallamused:

[Jalor]

*slow clap*

Brilliant. One of the best OOTS comics I've read in a while.

[Zienth]

Very interesting (and hilarious!).

I agree with others who have said that if the oracle knew enough to set up the village, he ought to have been able to have a cleric available for afterwards.

Which means that maybe that cleric could be persuaded to raise Roy?


But if there's no cleric to raise the oracle:

Then when the party leaves, they'll forget that the oracle is dead, not remember asking any questions or finding out that the oracle isn't a cleric, and turn back to go try and get Roy raised. Then they find out the oracle is dead and leave, forget everything again, realize they didn't..... ad inifitum.

Or else the oracle's death may end the memory charm.


So what will Haley and Celia do with Belkar?

Celia, being Lawyer-Good, may decide that Belkar committed a murder in the Kobold village, so he should face Kobold justice. She certainly knows he is a murderer and should face the consequences.

Haley has said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) that she's only traveling with him because she needs the help he can provide as a fighter. If he can't fight, she has no further need to travel with him. She's pretty clearly fed up with his behavior, too.

Unless they can get that curse removed, I don't see why either of them would take him along. By the time they can get to someplace where the curse could be removed, they'd be able to have Roy raised, and he'd be their meat shield.


One other possible consequence of the memory charm:

If they do manage to get Belkar's curse removed before leaving the valley, they won't remember that it was ever activated. So Belkar will still think he has to stay within its limitations. Would Roy's ghost be effected by the memory charm? If not, he might end up knowing that the Mark of Justice is gone, while Belkar thinks it's still there. That's got lots of possibilities...


Zienth

[Blink Dawg]

Only an oracle could pull off that level of 'vengeance from the grave'. :smallamused:

[David Argall]

I really liked how this all played out, but I can't really help but think that the Oracle ultimately committed suicide here.

If I knew some diminutive, stab-happy character was going to shiv me in the tummy, I'd try my best to prevent that; With the details he gave for the other deaths, however, wouldn't he know that the cause for Belkar killing him was because of Belkar's own frustration? Why perpetuate being the jerk? Unless, no matter how many times he thought about it, Belkar would wind up sticking him anyway –*then he is just an ass for setting up the village to exact revenge for the results of his own actions.
You overlook several possible theories here.
1. Belkar was going to kill him no matter what the Oracle did. Given Belkar, this seems highly possible.
2. The actions that would be needed to avoid Belkar killing him would make life not worth living. Given all the fun the Oracle had from insulting everybody, this could also easily be the case.
3. The Oracle was not allowed to do anything that would clash with any prophecy. Such would challenge his god.
4. ...


the Oracle let's slip "And as for the elf—" which would imply that Belkar has something to do with V in the future; as V is very much alive and So V is alive and sorta well, meaning Belkar will do something that involves V later down the road.
Note the 3 former cases. The oracle said Belkar had caused Roy's death and presented a case the party did not like, but still a valid case. Then he tried Miko and presented a much weaker case. Then he tried Miko's horse and presented a hopeless case. So we have a trend from strong to weak, meaning that the case agains V would have been absolute nonsense.
His "And as for the elf-" is pretty much a guarantee that Belkar will have nothing to do with V's death beyond what any random individual in the OOTS world would have to do.

[disorder]

I'm not happy with this one.

Why is it my heroes always have to be crapped on while everyone cheers?
Let me hazard a guess: you've got piss-poor taste in heroes.


I live in a world where...witches are the good guys (charmed)
Interesting. Had you said "Jews", "Muslims", or "Christians" in place of "Witches", you would have been hit with a well-deserved ban. If you're still a member of this site when you read this, you have actually been treated much more charitably than most other bigots.

Nonetheless, let me predict that you are going to continue to whine that you are the victim of PC thugs. Hey, call me an oracle; I've just got a sense for these things.

[Edited to soften my language slightly, once my initial anger abated.

[Stormthorn]

Quote:
I live in a world where...witches are the good guys (charmed)

Interesting. Had you said "Jews", "Muslims", or "Christians" in place of "Witches", you would have been hit with a well-deserved ban. If you're still a member of this site when you read this, you have actually been treated much more charitably than most other worthless bigots.

Why would he be banned for saying that a religous group are good guys? Thats punishing tolerance and i dont want any part of that.

Also, i know a witch (in the pagan practitioner way). They aint any more badguys in the modern world than anyone else.

[disorder]

Why would he be banned for saying that a religous group are good guys? Thats punishing tolerance and i dont want any part of that.

Also, i know a witch (in the pagan practitioner way). They aint any more badguys in the modern world than anyone else.
Agreed. I'm not a pagan myself, but I grant them the same respect that I would grant practitioners of any other religion.

My difference with Hiraghm stems from the fact that, from his post, he clearly resents the idea that witches could be portrayed as good guys, and presents himself as a martyr, since he has to live in a world where such portrayals exist. In other words, he is a bigot.

(Though I did amend my original response to remove the word "worthless". I don't know him well enough to judge whether he possesses worth of some sort.)

[Child Conscript]

Ahh Love the comic and Town name, Belkar you just got Punked

[Zorn]

That was amazing. I don't think I can say anything that hasn't already been said.

As Kelso from That 70's Show would say: Belkar got burned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTzZpoiEMM0).

[Lunaya]

Interesting. Had you said "Jews", "Muslims", or "Christians" in place of "Witches", you would have been hit with a well-deserved ban. If you're still a member of this site when you read this, you have actually been treated much more charitably than most other bigots.

I didn't think Hiraghm was disparaging witches at all. To me it sounded more like, "Isn't it cool that we leave in a world where witches (traditionally portrayed as evil) can now be portrayed as heroes?"

Anyway, I for one am really, really looking forward to 569. I wonder if the Giant will stay with Belkar and co. for the next one, or switch back to the others.

[Remirach]

I didn't think Hiraghm was disparaging witches at all. To me it sounded more like, "Isn't it cool that we leave in a world where witches (traditionally portrayed as evil) can now be portrayed as heroes?"
He presents himself as being extremely annoyed because that is "upside-down," just like pirates being portrayed as victims or a hard-working industrious person being made out to be a fool. He thinks it is anything but cool.

Nonetheless, the bigotry charge is premature. Witches, especially in fiction, are not synonymous with Wiccans. Saying something about the former group should not automatically be construed as a slam against the latter's religion. (Although I have to wonder what rock Hiraghm has been living under for the past 60 years that the idea of a "good witch" is modern and shocking. You'd think he'd at least have seen the Wizard of Oz...)

[TheNovak]

I-I don't know whether to cheer or not! I mean, on the one hand, Belkar's one of the main characters, but on the other, he's such an evil little prick...

Ah, screw it. F*** YEAH!

[Deatheater]

Well played, Mr. Giant, sir.

IMHO, should Belkar die, good riddance; his time has passed.

But as that's not likely, I'd settle for him never being free of the mark...thus protecting others from his future actions.

Yes, that would mean he was no longer of use, but really--the "stand by your team-mate no matter what" was strained even for a fantasy based story. As a gag it was fun while it was funny. He's now at the point where, even in a game, the other characters would "vote him off the island", if not kill him out right at his next transgression. Remember, honor goes both ways--they have their reputations to protect.

He'll be out there--some where--but he's not their problem anymore. And neither is the player who's been disrupting the game.

(Yeah, yeah--I know OOTS characters don't have players, but if they did...)

[Manga Shoggoth]

Apart from making up stuff to complain about, I'm genuinly curious as to what will become of the kobold village with such a beautiful name.

The residents will probably take the same approach as the residents of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch - call it comething else.

Someone on the board has already suggested Lickling...

[Eric]

I really like this one! Belkar finally gets what he deserves.

And he deserves this to show why stabbing isn't always the answer. He'll have to rely on the rest of the gang to get anywhere (now the MoJ is active, there's no problem putting the corpse in a sack, leaving the cart and the weak halfling behind and walking on. Heck, Celia may be able to fly).

So he sees now why Evil is eventually self-destructive: no man (or halfling) is an island.

Xykon doesn't need to know because that dude's freaking scary.

RC has the goblins and His Dream Of A Perfect World. He may find out what community means when his perfect world turns out to be hell.

Belkar is the nearest to being available to finding out why you treat others nice.

[TigerHunter]

(now the MoJ is active, there's no problem putting the corpse in a sack, leaving the cart and the weak halfling behind and walking on. Heck, Celia may be able to fly).
Panel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) Haley doesn't want her bag to get covered in dead Roy.

[Douglas Limmer]

So [Belkar] sees now why Evil is eventually self-destructive: no man (or halfling) is an island.Or, alternately, he blames those around him for giving him the mark, decides that if he avoided belonging to a group he never would have gotten the mark, and separates himself even more.

Why would Belkar blame himself or his own actions for his pain and suffering?

[pendell]

Also, i know a witch (in the pagan practitioner way). They aint any more badguys in the modern world than anyone else.

They also are neither the witches of folklore nor of 'Charmed'. The only thing a modern pagan has in common with 'Charmed' is the five letters in the name.

I think it's a fair observation in modern fantasy that many of the stereotypical fairy tale monsters are being presented in a sympathetic, if not heroic, fashion. While the 'good guys' are no longer Capes riding white horses and doing good all around but are occasionally narcissistic, self-righteous, genocidal bastards. See: Wicked (http://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Times-Witch-Harper-Fiction/dp/0061350966/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213964554&sr=8-2)

OTOH, maybe it's not such a bad thing that we're beginning to recognize that the world isn't a spaghetti western, even in fantasy.

I frankly wish modern pagans wouldn't try to claim the title 'witch', because it gets them mixed up with the green-skinned/broom-riding/baby-eating monster from fairy tales, which no human being has EVER been. I suspect stories about eeevol creatures like that were being told around campfires back when Europe was still pagan.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eric]

Or, alternately, he blames those around him for giving him the mark, decides that if he avoided belonging to a group he never would have gotten the mark, and separates himself even more.

Why would Belkar blame himself or his own actions for his pain and suffering?

Three words:

Roy Has Boobies

Belkar has gotten to like the party, even if (maybe he's an aspie) he doesn't really get the connection. And remember, he KNOWS that the party is the only way he's going to get out of this with the ability to kill again.

He's not stupid, he just doesn't have middle gears.

[sihnfahl]

He would be out in a week, maybe less, of course that doesnt take into account that AC is now run by :xykon: at which point he wouldnt even go to jail, he would join the bad guys.
Mind you, I was addressing Roy's attentions at the time the MoJ was actually put on Belkar. You know, before Julia got kidnapped, the whole fun of the Cliffport ruse by Nale, the first visit to the Oracle (when Roy tricked himself into excluding Azure City as Xykon's next destination)....

[Red XIV]

I really liked how this all played out, but I can't really help but think that the Oracle ultimately committed suicide here.

Look, he wasn't buying the theories of his answer to Belkar either. He says so in his last breath. Meaning, that when Belkar asked the question, he likely only saw his death directly caused by Belkar. While Belkar's dagger is the cause of allowing the Oracle to know what a pin cushion feels like, what caused Belkar to insert said pin into said cushion? Why, the Oracle being an obnoxious, vague smart-ass.

If I knew some diminutive, stab-happy character was going to shiv me in the tummy, I'd try my best to prevent that; hence the "theories" introduced to satiate my would-be killer. With the details he gave for the other deaths, however, wouldn't he know that the cause for Belkar killing him was because of Belkar's own frustration? Why perpetuate being the jerk? Unless, no matter how many times he thought about it, Belkar would wind up sticking him anyway –*then he is just an ass for setting up the village to exact revenge for the results of his own actions.

He's an oracle. As I've said before, he knows better than anybody that trying to change future events that you know from your own prophecies are guaranteed to happen will never work. If the Oracle had decided to leave a week ago for a two-week vacation, thus not being in the tower when Belkar showed up...somehow Belkar would have still caused his death, either directly or indirectly. Either Belkar would've simply ended up meeting the Oracle and stabbing him later, or something else would've happened at whatever location the Oracle went to and killed him...and he wouldn't have been there if he wasn't trying to evade Belkar.

Since his death was inevitable, instead of trying futily to avoid it, the Oracle instead set up an elaborate posthumous revenge against his killer. And there's still the strong possibility that he arranged ahead of time for a ressurrection as well. He does after all live in a world where death isn't necessarily permanent. The prophecy only held that he would die, not that he would stay dead.

[Trizap]

I predict the next comic will start with Belkar freaking out in serious pain, while Celia and Haley just stand there and shoot him stern looks, then over time, they grow more sorry for him panel-by-panel until the the second last panel they can't take it anymore and in the final panel they take Belkar with them saying "not even you deserve such torment" and/or "we think you've had enough punishment for one day"

[Hiraghm]

The level of PC required to suggest I be banned for disparaging *witches* is unbelievable. As a couple of people have rightly pointed out, practitioners of pagan religions have absolutely nothing in common with anything that happens on "charmed". If you actually believe that magic is real, you've been too immersed in D&D for too long.

I refrain from expressing opinions regarding other peoples religious beliefs, be they pagan, Christian, Moslem Jewish or athiest, beyond saying that not all religions are equal and only one can be right, and all could be wrong.

I've heard the argument put forth before that "maybe it's good we realise the world isn't a spaghetti western", only then it was "Ozzie and Harriet". Having grown up in an Ozzie and Harriet household, I can tell you that such delusions make for a better society.

In that vein, let's start seeing the charitable activities of Xykon. After all, if the world where the good guys are stand-up guys and the bad guys act, y'know, badly, is passe', then let's start seeing the grey area here where Xykon is concerned. Show me where Xykon is actually trying to save little ducks and bunnies by crushing Azure city and enslaving its population.
Show me where Durkon's child porn collection is stashed. Show me a scene where Roy literally creates a yellow pool between his feet before running away from, say, a small teddy bear. "The world is grey" is a great argument until you start trying to apply it to the archetypes *you* support.

Every character pursues his own interest in this comic. Even those pursuing allegedly "noble" and "selfless" goals are doing so to feel good about themselves. Only Belkar is condemned for it.

Finally, and this will probably get me banned if the staff is as liberal as the membership appears to be, yes, I *am* a bigot. So are each and every one of you. Bigotry is a part of human nature, just as much as is compassion or envy. What you do about it, however, is what determines what kind of character you have. "Love thy neighbor" isn't the law. Not-killing thy neighbor, is.

[Shatteredtower]

Actually I think this proves exactly the opposite. The oracle knew that belkar was going to eventually kill him when he did the prediction for him a few minutes earlier...So? Anyone who's read this series could have predicted that was inevitable.


SO when Roy asked his question, instead of gleefully sending him off to the wrong spot, he tried to change his destiny by sending the oots to the right spot instead.Uh... no. What happened is that Mr. Know-It-All was completely surprised by something he didn't predict. It threw him off rhythm, but he ultimately didn't care, so long as he didn't get blamed for the screwup.


BUT nothing he could say could change his destiny once ordained and hence nothing he could say could convince Roy to change his question.There's no connection between the two halves of this statement. Roy's question was preordained only in the sense that the Giant plans his plot out in advance of presenting the strips. He was as free to ask a different question as the Oracle -- Mr. Predestiny himself -- was to ask if he wouldn't rather rephrase it.

Furthermore, if it's all predestined, it makes no sense for the one whose business is being a wisecracking know-it-all to be visibly caught off guard by Roy's question.


That is a major problem with prophecies that are real and always come true. Having the prophecy removes options -- it doesnt give options.I predict that you will be a day older tomorrow.

Have I taken away your option not to be older tomorrow? No, because you never had that in the first place.

Have I given you the option to consider what being a day older means to you, and what you could do about that? Yes. Whether you choose to exercise that option is irrelevant. The option exists.

If the Oracle didn't know that Belkar would kill him, a certain kobold village wouldn't exist right now. The option to create one would never have occured to the Oracle if he hadn't predicted what Belkar was going to do.

On the one side, we have Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, who declares that his ability to see every moment simultaneously just makes him the only puppet that can see the strings. On the other, we have Londo Mollari from Babylon 5, fully aware of how he was going to die -- and still able to make that mean something very different than what most logically should have been the case, based on what we know of his history with the other party involved. Neither lost choice, however. All of Manhattan's choices were made at the instant he rebuilt himself (and every moment became now). Londo's made that final moment mean something better than should have been expected.

Prophecy always breaks a fourth wall on some level. I wonder if this contributes more to people's discomfort with prophecy or with the fourth wall?

[Lunaya]

I think Haley and Celia's handling of the situation will depend partly on their respective alignments and partly on how Belkar handles the situation. After all, everybody deals with being sick differently.

If Belkar spends the next several panels loudly complaining about the discomfort he's in and how this is everybody's fault but his, I can totally see the girls saying, "Yeah, serves you right." and possibly leaving him behind in his own misery. This, I think, is the most likely scenario. Especially if, faced with the prospect of being left alone and sick near a horde of kobolds, Belkar has to try and convince the girls to let him go with them, using any method of persuasion short of apologizing.

If Belkar acts like a drama queen, maybe with a lot of extra moaning or whimpering to try to play to the girls' sympathies, I can see Celia eventually softening. Haley won't fall for it, but the sylph has been shown to be caring to a fault.

Now if the MoJ really is horrible and weakens Belkar to the point that he can't do anything but lie quietly and look miserable, then Haley and Celia might be motivated to help him. After all, can you imagine a subdued, maybe even humbled Belkar? It's difficult for me to picture, even as a fan of his, and I imagine the ladies would find it slightly unnerving.

Just my two cents. :smallredface:

[Eran of Arcadia]

So, Hiraghm, it isn't so much that there is a gray area as that Belkar is good? I don't care how virtuous or not Durkon, or Roy, or Xykon, are, Belkar is just plain evil.

And don't forget how much Stalin hated Hitler. Godwin's Law and all that but doing an act that benefits others won't necessarily make you good.

[Shatteredtower]

"The world is grey" is a great argument until you start trying to apply it to the archetypes *you* support.This makes no sense. I enjoy a number of literary archetypes I'd rather not have to deal with in real life. Belkar is basically little more than a Punch for our times -- only Judy's his aunt, not his wife.


Every character pursues his own interest in this comic.Maybe. Most seem to be pursuing something more than that, however. Durkon is the one least about self, for example, with Belkar at the other end of the scale.


Even those pursuing allegedly "noble" and "selfless" goals are doing so to feel good about themselves.This is the sort of argument one of the seven blind mind encountering an elephant makes: partly right, and wholly wrong. It's true that Roy is motivated by the need to validate his choices to his father, but he is a genuinely good person who has gone against his own interests when he felt it was the right thing to do. (Losing sleep night after night never makes you feel good about yourself, let me assure you.) V's efforts to find Haley are motivated in part by pride and shame, but there's also a loyalty to it.


Only Belkar is condemned for it.As much as I enjoy reading about his antics, he's still willing to kill a helpful merchant over a chocolate bar, or a travelling companion for the sake of a few xp. It's not the sort of behaviour I want my nieces or nephews emulating. Now if they want to follow his example in the kitchen, great, and I'll certainly be pleased if they can improvise as well in the face of adversity as he has -- so long as it's for something more than mayhem for mayhem's sake.


...yes, I *am* a bigot. So are each and every one of you.This claim demonstrates a misunderstanding of what bigotry is. It's not the same as discriminating, nor even prejudiced. The former allows you to demonstrate preferences. The latter leaves you hesitant to depart from your preferences. Bigotry not only won't even consider the option, it doesn't make allowances for anyone else to do so either.

[KernelReefer]

The level of PC required to suggest I be banned for disparaging *witches* is unbelievable. As a couple of people have rightly pointed out, practitioners of pagan religions have absolutely nothing in common with anything that happens on "charmed". If you actually believe that magic is real, you've been too immersed in D&D for too long.

I agree with the literal statements of this post, but I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the world is "topsy-turvey" because of changing sympathies. We still have universal hero figures (Aragorn) and English/American literature still follow the hero formula set forth in Beowulf. Even older literature didn't have black and white--it's implied that Grendel is an innocent, never really knowing the full extent of his actions. Sir Lancelot was the best duelist in K. Arthur's court, but was an absolute arse. Cheated on his wife, and was vicious, he loved to kill. He was one of the worst in terms of upholding the code of the knights. Even King Arthur slept with Morgause to be later be killed by his illegitimate son Mordred. This isn't new.




I refrain from expressing opinions regarding other peoples religious beliefs, be they pagan, Christian, Moslem Jewish or athiest, beyond saying that not all religions are equal and only one can be right, and all could be wrong.

K. Fair enough. Although I suppose both the Unitarians and Anybody Else can be right. What a sweet religion.




I've heard the argument put forth before that "maybe it's good we realise the world isn't a spaghetti western", only then it was "Ozzie and Harriet". Having grown up in an Ozzie and Harriet household, I can tell you that such delusions make for a better society.

You're right--people should be punished for liking "black people music". I recall that particular episode. But outside of specific episodes, seriously, WHAT? "Such delusions" never make for a better society. The 50's are the worst instance of pop culture absolutely killing political awareness. Leave it to Beaver and other such nonsense further encouraged the marginalization of Blacks and black culture, and more importantly black suffering. Or perhaps the idea of the perfect middle class destroyed political impetus to prevent spousal abuse. McCarthy's politics were nicely reinforced by the static ideal of the perfect nuclear family and So Help You God if you didn't fit their image.

In short, the idyllic 50's television era discouraged and harmed those who didn't conform the narrow ideals presented in the shows.

Portraying ideal as truth doesn't make things ideal. It might encourage the Smiths to buy more TV dinners another car. It discourages the Smiths from understanding that a lot of black people were poor because they were constantly denigrated, marginalized, and segregated. It prevented the Johnsons from understanding that their neighbor who was detained with charges of being a communist, really just wanted a serious discussion of Labor Politics, not a revolution.

I'm sure Ozzie and Harriet encouraged men to respect their wives when they had an opinion opposite their own. I bet it really helped recently divorced women become respected members of society.


Besides all that, that crap is boring because it's not real. There are precious few who's biggest problem is whether or not Harriet is seeing too much of that "raucous jazz". Heroes with flaws are interesting, because they are believable.



In that vein, let's start seeing the charitable activities of Xykon. After all, if the world where the good guys are stand-up guys and the bad guys act, y'know, badly, is passe', then let's start seeing the grey area here where Xykon is concerned. Show me where Xykon is actually trying to save little ducks and bunnies by crushing Azure city and enslaving its population.
Show me where Durkon's child porn collection is stashed. Show me a scene where Roy literally creates a yellow pool between his feet before running away from, say, a small teddy bear. "The world is grey" is a great argument until you start trying to apply it to the archetypes *you* support.

Every character pursues his own interest in this comic. Even those pursuing allegedly "noble" and "selfless" goals are doing so to feel good about themselves. Only Belkar is condemned for it.

That's not the argument. We can still have a Big Bad who is morally completely repulsive and have shades of grey within a series. Why does complication have to be balanced? Why does every unsympathetic flaw in a hero absolutely necessitate a sympathetic redeeming quality of a villain? Nevertheless, we do see a little bit of it happen with Redcloak. He becomes more sympathetic with time because he begins to see value in lives. He's still a villain working to enslave populaces. Bad.

Good guys can still be, at their core, good. And Bad guys can be, at their core, bad. But that doesn't mean we live in a spaghetti western. I have trouble believing that Haley's old obsession for gold and treasure wasn't a
character flaw that made her slightly less (or more to some) sympathetic to readers.

The world IS grey. Just not equally grey.

Belkar is an obstacle. He killed the Oracle. Something that's completely frustrating and sets the story back quite significantly. And by that I mean, he forces the dead, frustrated spirit of Roy to suffer another however many months watching the group try and fail.

You seem to be cheering for Belkar at the same time you want Roy to come back from the dead. Belkar just prevented a relatively quick resolution of that. Should he not be punished for killing an innocent (if slightly annoying) NPC? That's freaking EVIL.

And Belkar isn't the only one condemned for it. People have complained about V: he's setting the immediate needs of the party completely aside to try and assuage the guilt he feels for leaving Haley and Belkar behind. He's exhausting himself and endangering Durkon. Roy has been often criticized for poor decision-making, tricking the group for the starmetal quest and INVOLVING EVERYONE IN SOMETHING COMPLETELY NOT THEIR AFFAIR, namely the blood oath. It's their affair now, but at the beginning? That was selfish. I can believe Elan is somewhat guiltless (if frustrating) because of his everpresent stupidity. And even then, people criticize him.

Also, people call Belkar out more because he tortures people before he wants them to die. He kills innocents for no reason. He constantly causes harm and damage. I can see why people call him out more.

I personally have very little problem with someone who incidentally saves the world when he really just did what he did to avenge his dead father. I have a huge problem with someone committing genocide just for the hell of it. So yea, Belkar should be called out more, because when he acts in his own interest, he doesn't freaking care what collateral happens. The others do. And they act out of their own interest in a largely responsible manner.



Finally, and this will probably get me banned if the staff is as liberal as the membership appears to be, yes, I *am* a bigot. So are each and every one of you. Bigotry is a part of human nature, just as much as is compassion or envy. What you do about it, however, is what determines what kind of character you have. "Love thy neighbor" isn't the law. Not-killing thy neighbor, is.

I'm glad it isn't a law. I agree that Bigotry is part of human nature.


That doesn't mean we have to embrace it.

[EponymousKid]

Okay, I really don't remember what the Mark of Justice does.

I mean, yeah, Belkar's in pain, but... is that it? Is it never going to stop, are authorities alerted? I really don't remember. To think, I passed the Test of Memory...

[teratorn]

Ok, this thing is already in page 8, but I had to do my happy dance before I posted. And it was a very long dance...

On the other hand is Rich trying to kill or incapacitate most of the order?

Roy - dead
V - crazy/tired
Belkar - sick and unable to kill

Who's next? Durkon?

[Ampersand]

Yeah, no sense at all... unless Haley decides she needs a 14th level warrior even if he is a bloodthirsty maniac.

Presumably, if Haley is in a position to get the MoJ lifted off the bloodthirsty maniac, she'd also be in a position to resurrect the warrior she has with her that's not a bloodthirsty maniac. To paraphrase said fighter about a different character, Belkar is more of an impediment that the group overcomes regularly than anything else. The smart thing to do would be to tie him up, put a bow on him, and leave him for the kobolds while seeing to get Roy brought back to life...and possibly searching for a replacement warrior that that wouldn't be negatively compared to a rabid, insane dog.

[Hiraghm]

I'm going to drop it after responding to the following, because it is so blind to reality it must be addressed:

""Such delusions" never make for a better society. The 50's are the worst instance of pop culture absolutely killing political awareness."

Shall we compared statistics? We can start with the abortion rate, teen pregnancy rate, single-parent-home rate, divorce rate. We can continue with a look at the state of education then vs now. We can look at the coarseness of the culture then, and now. Oh, we aren't segregated. Not by race, not by sex, not by class. In fact, it's impossible for us to get the heck away from each other. And we can look at the state of our industry then, and now. Need I mention that the evil, bigotted, segregated generation that created the peace and prosperity of the 50s created it after surviving a global Depression and defeating 2 of the greatest military powers in history? That's what grandpop did; what can we point to to compare? Whatever their philosophy was, it was rejected a decade later, so it's ridiculous to blame it for the failings of the post-modern culture we have today. And whatever color the music, kids pooh-poohed their parents about Elvis, and their kids pooh-poohed them about the Beatles, and their kids pooh-poohed them about (pick your acid rock band of the 80s).... and so on until we have the vile non-music called "Rap" today.

And I'm way off-topic, so I'll get back on it...
It wasn't my objection to Belkar being viewed as evil by some. It was my objection that he is continually abused for following his own self-interest. It's like watching an episode of Star Drek. You decry Belkar for killing someone for a candy bar... recall teenagers in the U.S. killing each other for running shoes? To the best of my knowledge, OotS doesn't take place in the U.S. or other country with laws. Just what is it OotS does? Well, they invade other peoples' homes, kill those that resist, and take whatever goodies they want. That's what they were doing when I started reading the comic. Really moral behavior, that, even by today's standard.

But again, it doesn't bother me that some readers and some of the characters view Belkar as evil; what does bother me is the Star Drek, Mash, etc effete viewpoint that the other characters have any RIGHT to judge Belkar. They can only condemn him by applying their standards to him.... when he doesn't share those standards. That'd be kind of like, say, a Christian saying, for example, constantly belittling a witch because they don't go to a steepled church every Sunday. Only make everyone a Christian and only one person a witch. And include among the Christians Jimmy Bakker and Torquemada. And make them belittle constantly, and never put up a stake and build a fire...

If and when Belkar does get cured... just what incentive does he have to stick with OotS? They thwart his efforts to further his goals (regardless of what you think of his goals), they use his abilities without appreciation, they belittle and badmouth him at every opportunity... aside from sheer masochism, why should he stick around this group of losers? Just what have they done to defeat Xykon since Roy died? Only Haley has even continued the fight, and she's no noble Paladin or wizened Wizard, just a rogue (rogue: loner, outcast).
Just what has Xykon done to Belkar that Belkar would care about fighting him?

Actually... that would be such a neat storyline that I could forgive the romance between the half-orc ninja and the half-a** bard. If Haley gets the curse lifted, and Belkar is matured a bit by his near-death experience and Haley's nursing of his illness, maybe a romance between him and Haley could develop... they're better suited to one another than anyone is to Forrest Elan.
(or is it Elan Gump?)

[Zeku]

Interesting post. (And you thought the death of Miko was going to slow down the quasi-religious debates..ha!)

I think we can assume that people's (fashionably new) distaste for Belkar originates from their instinctual belief that the common good is the highest good. This is hypocritical of course, everyone only really cares about themselves, but we pretend to care about each other enough that it might as well be true.

Haley's not hooking up with someone who is 3 feet tall. Not even sure where that came from exactly, considering she and the orc have sincere emotional willies over stupid-boy.

[The Gremlin]

...I personally have very little problem with someone who incidentally saves the world when he really just did what he did to avenge his dead father...I agree, but I think it's the other way around: Roy happens to avenge his dead father while saving the world.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Who's next? Durkon?
Falls off the ship in full armor while praying to Thor to have his Water Walk renewed.

[Zolem]

It's about time Belkar got his. I've found him to not be as fun since he abandoned O'Chul.:smallfurious: He was definantly out of bounds, and he's been getting worse. I'm freaking thrilled enough to dance that he's finally getting his ass handed to him.:smallbiggrin: The only question is, which version of the MoJ is it? Cause when you use the spell you can have several different effects happen. I hope in all sincerity that it's not the death one, and he'll be able to recover, posibly with a healthier respect for life, or a greater fear of his MoJ (which won't disapear), plus it would be awesome to see him tortured with weakness.:smallamused:

Also, a lot of people seem to think the Oracle's dead for good. Two words. Prearanged Resurection. Twenty minutes after the party leaves, a high level cleric arrives to resurect the Oracle, who then getts a shot in at Roy that this guy could have raised his corpse as well, but the Yo Momma jokes are what made him arrange for the priest to show up after they left.:smallwink:

[Zeku]

About prophecy, guys:

The fact that the Oracle had to be in a trance to answer questions suggests that it is some supernatural being that is speaking through the Oracle. This means that the Oracle doesn't actually have the ability to know the future, he simply hears the same answers that the askers do. His knowledge of how to avenge his murder could simply be the result of his own spying and paranoia: he realizes that he's a potential victim, and decides to use his own resources to keep track of Belkar and gather information on him. When he sees Belkar in his vicinity, he takes a precaution against his potential death. This clears up all confusion about the Oracle committing suicide, and the attendant "you can't avoid destiny" arguments.

Prophecy itself is not confusing either: it is simply the claim of a powerful entity, one who is capable of making it's claim a reality.

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm soooo glad belkar didn't get away with killing the oracle. I've been waiting for him to get his comeuppance for a long time now.

[VForVaarsuvius]

I'm going to drop it after responding to the following, because it is so blind to reality it must be addressed:

""Such delusions" never make for a better society. The 50's are the worst instance of pop culture absolutely killing political awareness."

Shall we compared statistics? We can start with the abortion rate, teen pregnancy rate, single-parent-home rate, divorce rate. We can continue with a look at the state of education then vs now. We can look at the coarseness of the culture then, and now. Oh, we aren't segregated. Not by race, not by sex, not by class. In fact, it's impossible for us to get the heck away from each other. And we can look at the state of our industry then, and now. Need I mention that the evil, bigotted, segregated generation that created the peace and prosperity of the 50s created it after surviving a global Depression and defeating 2 of the greatest military powers in history? That's what grandpop did; what can we point to to compare? Whatever their philosophy was, it was rejected a decade later, so it's ridiculous to blame it for the failings of the post-modern culture we have today. And whatever color the music, kids pooh-poohed their parents about Elvis, and their kids pooh-poohed them about the Beatles, and their kids pooh-poohed them about (pick your acid rock band of the 80s).... and so on until we have the vile non-music called "Rap" today.

And I'm way off-topic, so I'll get back on it...
It wasn't my objection to Belkar being viewed as evil by some. It was my objection that he is continually abused for following his own self-interest. It's like watching an episode of Star Drek. You decry Belkar for killing someone for a candy bar... recall teenagers in the U.S. killing each other for running shoes? To the best of my knowledge, OotS doesn't take place in the U.S. or other country with laws. Just what is it OotS does? Well, they invade other peoples' homes, kill those that resist, and take whatever goodies they want. That's what they were doing when I started reading the comic. Really moral behavior, that, even by today's standard.

But again, it doesn't bother me that some readers and some of the characters view Belkar as evil; what does bother me is the Star Drek, Mash, etc effete viewpoint that the other characters have any RIGHT to judge Belkar. They can only condemn him by applying their standards to him.... when he doesn't share those standards. That'd be kind of like, say, a Christian saying, for example, constantly belittling a witch because they don't go to a steepled church every Sunday. Only make everyone a Christian and only one person a witch. And include among the Christians Jimmy Bakker and Torquemada. And make them belittle constantly, and never put up a stake and build a fire...

If and when Belkar does get cured... just what incentive does he have to stick with OotS? They thwart his efforts to further his goals (regardless of what you think of his goals), they use his abilities without appreciation, they belittle and badmouth him at every opportunity... aside from sheer masochism, why should he stick around this group of losers? Just what have they done to defeat Xykon since Roy died? Only Haley has even continued the fight, and she's no noble Paladin or wizened Wizard, just a rogue (rogue: loner, outcast).
Just what has Xykon done to Belkar that Belkar would care about fighting him?

Actually... that would be such a neat storyline that I could forgive the romance between the half-orc ninja and the half-a** bard. If Haley gets the curse lifted, and Belkar is matured a bit by his near-death experience and Haley's nursing of his illness, maybe a romance between him and Haley could develop... they're better suited to one another than anyone is to Forrest Elan.
(or is it Elan Gump?)

Oh my gosh, you are making way to big a deal out of this. It's a comic, it's not worth these paragraphs upon paragraphs- Half of which are complaining about pop-culture and apparently thinking it has something to do with the comic.

Also, Rich has the right to do what he wants with his own comic. So calm down.:smallsigh:

[Red XIV]

About prophecy, guys:

The fact that the Oracle had to be in a trance to answer questions suggests that it is some supernatural being that is speaking through the Oracle. This means that the Oracle doesn't actually have the ability to know the future, he simply hears the same answers that the askers do.
The way he was able to understand Haley, before going into his trance, suggests otherwise.

If you'll recall, he says that he was looking into the future and reading the translation from the graphic novel version (which, incidentally, means he was looking into our future too, since that graphic novel hasn't been published yet).

[reignofevil]

Mind you, I was addressing Roy's attentions at the time the MoJ was actually put on Belkar. You know, before Julia got kidnapped, the whole fun of the Cliffport ruse by Nale, the first visit to the Oracle (when Roy tricked himself into excluding Azure City as Xykon's next destination)....

You have seen what prisons are like in this world. The mark would be taken off, it may take a few weeks, but the mark would definitly be removed, and after that he would be out in a week. And then back as an antagonist.