[4E] Half-Elf questions

[Gypsy0001]

1) There's one half-elf racial feat (I forget the name, book not in front of me). Does the +1 initiative/insight bonus apply to the half-elf as well? Or only her allies? Because the way it reads it looks like the feat benefits your party but not your own character (as opposed to the wording in warlord class which clearly specifies the +2 initiative bonus for that class applies to allies and warlord both).

2) Same question with respect to the group +1 diplomacy bonus from the race itself. Does that add in (for a total +3 for the half-elf character), or is it seperate (+2 for the half-elf, +1 for allies)?

3) If I take a wizard at-will spell as an encounter power on a non-wizard character (via half-elf race, not multi-class feat), do I need to maintain a spellbook or anything? Or it's just something I can do innately now?

[THAC0]

1) There's one half-elf racial feat (I forget the name, book not in front of me). Does the +1 initiative/insight bonus apply to the half-elf as well? Or only her allies? Because the way it reads it looks like the feat benefits your party but not your own character (as opposed to the wording in warlord class which clearly specifies the +2 initiative bonus for that class applies to allies and warlord both).

2) Same question with respect to the group +1 diplomacy bonus from the race itself. Does that add in (for a total +3 for the half-elf character), or is it seperate (+2 for the half-elf, +1 for allies)?

3) If I take a wizard at-will spell as an encounter power on a non-wizard character (via half-elf race, not multi-class feat), do I need to maintain a spellbook or anything? Or it's just something I can do innately now?

1 and 2 are very good questions. I hadn't noticed it, but agree that the phrasing indicates that the half elf does not actually benefit from said feats. How annoying!

3, I'd say you don't need a spell book. It seems like the spell book is a function of knowing more spells than you can cast in a day. I'm not sure if the books have an official ruling, though.

[Person_Man]

From the PHB, pg 57


If a power directly affects one or more creatures or objects, it has a “Target” or “Targets” entry. When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

The Half Elf power Group Diplomacy states that "You grant allies" the bonus. The Group Insight feat also specifies that "You grant allies..." Neither mentions anything like "you and each ally" like Bless (pg. 64) or Divine Power (pg. 67). Therefore, in each case the Skill bonus only applies to your allies. (You do, however, benefit from the half-elf +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy and Insight).

Spellbooks in 4E only apply to apply to rituals, daily powers, and utility powers (pg. 158). It has no effect on at will or per encounter powers.

[Gypsy0001]

[QUOTE=THAC0;4471299]1 and 2 are very good questions. I hadn't noticed it, but agree that the phrasing indicates that the half elf does not actually benefit from said feats. How annoying![QUOTE]

Yeah, that's exactly my dilemma. It's one of those situations where the instructions for how to interpret phrasing suggest pretty strongly that Group Insight feat applies only to other party members and not to the character who takes it.

But that seems very lame. I'm charitable, but not that charitable. I also don't understand the RP to this interpretation of it (unless they're suggesting that half-elves are Jinxed and people who group with them learn to expect trouble... which would be funny, ala Elan, but the half-elf lore doesn't really support that view).

I was hoping there was maybe an errata or someone directly asked a game developer if that was their intent.

[Frost]

Just want to point out, that under that definition you are your own enemy. But are you your worst enemy? Also, if a blast X has an effect Y on enemies within range, since you are explicitly your own enemy at all times you have to roll against yourself too.

I think Thunderwave just became the worst at-will for Wizards.

[erikun]

Just because you're not your own ally doesn't make you your enemy. Besides, blasts specifically do not affect the square that you are standing on.

(You're thinking burst, but even then, you are not affected by a close burst power.)

Anyways, the half-elf does not gain a +1 Diplomacy bonus from Group Diplomacy - the ability specifically affects allies, not yourself. But even if you have a group of half-elves, you still don't get the bonus. The half-elf already has a racial +2 bonus to Diplomacy, so the racial +1 from Group Diplomacy doesn't stack.

Besides, both the cleric and warlord classes are full of powers that grant the same kinds of effects - bonuses to allies but not to yourself. Check out the Inspired Recovery and Tactical Assault feats - neither grants the character a bonus, they just grant other characters the bonuses. And if you think that's weak, I don't think you appreciate giving everyone else in your party a +5 to damage for a turn.

[Pinnacle]

Just because you're not your own ally doesn't make you your enemy.

I think he was just referring to the fact that, according to the quoted rules text quoted literally, you are indeed your own enemy.


If a power directly affects one or more creatures or objects, it has a “Target” or “Targets” entry. When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.
It should probably say "creature or creatures other than yourself."

Anyway, the half-elves' Group abilities don't apply to themselves, but they don't really have to--You get a +2 to Diplomacy and grant a +1 to everyone else in your group. Everyone's better because you're around, but you still get the best benefit from it.
You have a point about the feat, though. A feat that makes my friends better but doesn't do anything for me at all? Especially since half-elves don't get any initiative bonus themselves.

[Jarlax]

just wanted to take a moment here. we are discussing half elves, voted the WORST PC race in 3.5. we are discussing how we would actually invest racial feats to improve this racial choice further.

my group laughed our butts off when we sat down and rolled our PCs last week. not one, not two but THREE people reduced their racial choices to the final pick of "half-elf vs X" for three different classes. my party is now one half half-elves and i think that is completely awesome.

[Azerian Kelimon]

just wanted to take a moment here. we are discussing half elves, voted the WORST PC race in 3.5. we are discussing how we would actually invest racial feats to improve this racial choice further.

my group laughed our butts off when we sat down and rolled our PCs last week. not one, not two but THREE people reduced their racial choices to the final pick of "half-elf vs X" for three different classes. my party is now one half half-elves and i think that is completely awesome.

Note, however, that half elf is still a meh choice, just not as bad as it was in 3.5. since Con is a really bad pick to boost unless you're a warlock, you're left with a +2 Cha as an effective stat boost, a free at will from another class as a per encounter power, and no power. It's neat, but nowhere the raw awesome that are drows, bugbears, halfling, elves, and humans.