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JeminiZero
2008-06-19, 04:41 AM
Hey guys, I have a question. Going through Crystal Keeps Cleric Spell list, this little nugget caught my eye:

Monstrous Regeneration(MoF p109)(MoFe)+ <Conj(heal), VS, Touch, 1rnd/2lvls>
- Touched living creature gains the Regeneration ability. Any damage the target takes (except for Acid & Fire) is converted to subdual damage, which is heal at a rate of 4hp per round. Severed body parts can be reattached as a Move-Equivalent action. When the spell ends, all subdual damage from this spell becomes normal damage.

Which means that if you persist this and stack on Energy Immunity Fire and Acid, you essentially become immune to all lethal damage. However, you can still be knocked unconscious by taking excessive amounts of non-lethal damage.

But if you add on something that grants you immunity to non-lethal damage, such as this:

Improved Resiliency [Warforged] (RoE p119)
Req: Warforged
Benefit: You are immune to nonlethal damage. You cannot benefit from Regeneration or Fast Healing, no matter if they come from magic, the application of a Template, etc.

Then you effectively become totally immune to HP damage! Does that sound about right?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-06-19, 04:52 AM
No, because the feat explicitly makes you immune to fast healing and Regeneration.

marjan
2008-06-19, 04:56 AM
No, because the feat explicitly makes you immune to fast healing and Regeneration.

It does that. But it doesn't make you immune to the spells that have those effects, it just makes you immune to those effects. In the case above, you wouldn't benefit from healing the spell provides, but you would benefit from the other effects of the spell.

The biggest problem you have there is that you use materials from two campaign settings, which can be corrected by making undead or some other race that is available to FR and is immune to non-lethal damage.

EDIT: Missed the part about regeneration.

JeminiZero
2008-06-19, 04:56 AM
No, because the feat explicitly makes you immune to fast healing and Regeneration.

Dang. There goes that brilliant plan. Any other means of gaining non-lethal immunity?




The biggest problem you have there is that you use materials from two campaign settings, which can be corrected by making undead or some other race that is available to FR and is immune to non-lethal damage.


And you might add Initiate of Mystra on top of it so that your powers can remain active in an anti-magic field. And you're on your way to equalling the Twice Betrayer of Shar :smallamused:

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-19, 05:07 AM
It's easy. Just Shapechange into a Construct or Undead.

There might be a few other spells that change your type to one of the two, in which case you get the traits of the type, one of which is immunity to nonlethal damage. And neither type forbids regeneration.

marjan
2008-06-19, 05:08 AM
Warforged Juggernaut becomes immune to non-lethal damage at 2nd level. You don't want to take him to 3rd level because you get immunity to Conjuration(Healing)spells.

marjan
2008-06-19, 05:11 AM
It's easy. Just Shapechange into a Construct or Undead.

There might be a few other spells that change your type to one of the two, in which case you get the traits of the type, one of which is immunity to nonlethal damage. And neither type forbids regeneration.

No, but lack of constitution forbids it.


Regeneration

....

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

JeminiZero
2008-06-19, 05:23 AM
Warforged Juggernaut becomes immune to non-lethal damage at 2nd level. You don't want to take him to 3rd level because you get immunity to Conjuration(Healing)spells.

I had another idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82936) on how to make a Warforged that did not need to rely on Conjuration(Healing). If you add Dread Necro+TTS into the mix, you can use that to gain rebuke undead for DMM:Persist, and instead use Archivist (so that casting runs off your Int score rather than your crappy Warforged wis score).

Of course the problem with this is how to progress Archivist casting while leaving Dread Necro behind, without eating a multiclass penalty. One possiblity is to gun for Divine PrC with low entry requirements. Then you can start from 2 Dread Necro / 3 Archivist / 2 Warforged Juggernaut / X Divine PrC.

marjan
2008-06-19, 05:47 AM
Cleric might be a better idea, since you can get Warforged domain (FoE, p150).

This can also be done with Archivist. If spells from domains are not allowed you can always get it through Contemplative.

Cleric is still better IMO (in combo with Contemplative), since you can get Extend Spell and Extra Turning through domains.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-19, 06:02 AM
No, but lack of constitution forbids it.

Specific trumps general. The spell says the creature gains the Regeneration ability without any statement about Con scores.

The regeneration ability granted by the spell is a specific instance and thus trumps the general rule that only creatures with a Con score can have regeneration.

marjan
2008-06-19, 06:20 AM
Specific trumps general. The spell says the creature gains the Regeneration ability without any statement about Con scores.


Only in case that there is contradiction in rules, which is not the case here.

Keld Denar
2008-06-19, 06:28 AM
Maybe something like an Acidborn Woodling 1/2 Troll 1/2 Dragon? Acidborn gives you immunity to acid, but requires plant or aquatic subtype. Woodling grants plant subtype, and with it, immunity to crits and subdual damage and satisifies reqs for acidborn. Also retains CON score. 1/2 troll gives regen and 1/2 red dragon give immunity to fire. Still vulnerable to death spells and mind affecting stuff, but still, a melee monster. I believe they call stuff like this the IKEA Tarrasque.

marjan
2008-06-19, 06:44 AM
Maybe something like an Acidborn Woodling 1/2 Troll 1/2 Dragon? Acidborn gives you immunity to acid, but requires plant or aquatic subtype. Woodling grants plant subtype, and with it, immunity to crits and subdual damage and satisifies reqs for acidborn. Also retains CON score. 1/2 troll gives regen and 1/2 red dragon give immunity to fire. Still vulnerable to death spells and mind affecting stuff, but still, a melee monster. I believe they call stuff like this the IKEA Tarrasque.

As strange as it may sound plant type doesn't give immunity to non-lethal damage.

martyboy74
2008-06-19, 06:51 AM
There's a 9th level cleric spell that gives you undead traits, such as immunity to non-lethal damage, but doesn't take away your CON score in the SpC. It only lasts rounds/level, but you could DMM persist it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-19, 06:54 AM
Only in case that there is contradiction in rules, which is not the case here.

Actually there is. The spell says it gives you the regeneration ability, this is a specific rule. The general rule is that you have to have a Con score to have the regeneration ability.

The spell is unequivocal. It says "you gain the regeneration ability".

Douglas
2008-06-19, 07:40 AM
Or you could just circumvent the entire conflict by using either Veil of Undeath or Favor of the Martyr. Both of these spells from the Spell Compendium grant immunity to nonlethal damage without removing your constitution score. Only 1 round/level for each, but some Divine Metamagic or Incantatrix cheese can Persist Veil of Undeath fairly easily. Favor of the Martyr's range isn't eligible for Persistent Spell, though, so it seems this trick is only available to evil characters thanks to Veil of Undeath's [evil] descriptor.

Crazy Scot
2008-06-19, 07:44 AM
If you want a really, REALLY broken way of doing it:

1. go with a psion, then the PrC Metamind (all 10 levels)
2. get the powers Schism and Temporal Reiteration (you will need to burn at least a feat to get both)
3. activate the Font of Power ability from the Metamind PrC
4. activate the Schism power to get a "second mind"
use your second mind to continually activate Temporal Reiteration
5. get as many buff spells and abilities that you can to be cast on you
6. get a power stone with Timeless Body on it, and activate it
7. go to town

8. for even more brokenness...use 2 feats to get the stance from ToB called "Blood in the Water" (a Tiger Claw stance). Now every time you get a critical hit you get an untyped, stacking +1 bonus to hit and damage that will never run out. Now you can single hit anything and slaughter it.
:smallbiggrin:

Ceaon
2008-06-19, 07:53 AM
Actually there is. The spell says it gives you the regeneration ability, this is a specific rule. The general rule is that you have to have a Con score to have the regeneration ability.

The spell is unequivocal. It says "you gain the regeneration ability".

But it doesn't say "you gain the regeneration ability even if you do not have a constitution score."
That would be contradiction. This is simply covered by the rules and thus wouldn't work - especially because no DM worth his salt would ever agree with this.

Tingel
2008-06-19, 07:58 AM
Actually there is. The spell says it gives you the regeneration ability, this is a specific rule. The general rule is that you have to have a Con score to have the regeneration ability.

The spell is unequivocal. It says "you gain the regeneration ability".
That is nonsensical reasoning. Consider this: The description of the Fireball spell says that the fireball "deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area". Following your "logic", we would have to say that the spell is unequivocal - it simply deals fire damage. Thus creatures immune to fire would still be damaged by the Fireball, since the spell's description doesn't mention "unless the target is immune to fire".

DigoDragon
2008-06-19, 08:32 AM
As strange as it may sound plant type doesn't give immunity to non-lethal damage.

I've once beaten a daisy into unconsciousness. :smallredface:

Anyway, I'd agree that you'd need a CON score to have regeneration. I've never seen an ability or spell specifically express such an exception (i.e. 'You gain regeneration even if you don't have a CON score').

Douglas might be on to something though.

marjan
2008-06-19, 10:12 AM
Or you could just circumvent the entire conflict by using either Veil of Undeath or Favor of the Martyr. Both of these spells from the Spell Compendium grant immunity to nonlethal damage without removing your constitution score. Only 1 round/level for each, but some Divine Metamagic or Incantatrix cheese can Persist Veil of Undeath fairly easily. Favor of the Martyr's range isn't eligible for Persistent Spell, though, so it seems this trick is only available to evil characters thanks to Veil of Undeath's [evil] descriptor.

10 minutes/level for Veil of Undeath, so it can even be extended for long enough. But there are ways to persist, so it's not really problem.

BTW, can a spell have both evil and good descriptor? If not Purify Spell can make it available to good characters. Otherwise you'll need to suck it up.